The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[Pazzo.]

I dont know man.
Its just a new version of a discussion that has been had a thousand times. Currently we are on the:
"L-canceling is a dumb mechanic, it should be automatic" vs "L-canceling seperates pros from joes. You can mind game with shielding to mess up L-cancels" vs "Video games is about being good at doing hard inputs and similar stuff, thats what being good at videogames is" vs "L-canceling offers no depth at all, you always want to L-cancel"-discussion.

Ah... Well, I disagree with "Video games is about being good at doing hard inputs and similar stuff, thats what being good at videogames is".

As far as L-Canceling, I don't really care ether way. If I can, great. If not, if its an auto mechanic, more power to Sakurai.

 

[Priap0s]

There was an easy mode in Melee, single button mode. And what do ya mean by too even?

"..too, even..."? I don't know how I should have wrote it. What I mean is that melee (as every other smash game) was enjoyed alot by casuals and that it would most likely have been enjoyed by them just as much if L-canceling had been automatic in the game.

 

[Michael Blaine]

I know that feel Priap0s.


2006:

member a: There is nothing rong with advance techneeks! UR just a lazy n00b, filthy casual, derp, ect Get on mii level!!
member b: They are st00pid moves for tourneyfags!! You can't beat me without your wavedash canceling glitches! I hoep Sakorai makes them gone!!


2008:

member a: There is nothing wrong with advanced techniques. Wavedashing is not a glitch, it is a product of the game's physics, and l canceling is easy so why complain, n00b.
member b: Wavedashing is an exploit of the physics, making it something that wasn't intended, which is basically a glitch. L canceling doesn't add depth and therefore should go, tourneytard.


2010:

member a: Wavedashing could be considered an exploit, it's just semantics really, but a glitch is a malfunction, which does not apply here. I believe the issue some take with l canceling is not that it doesn't add depth, but that it exists without viable alternatives to its use. If alternatives were added the complaint would be alleviated.

member b: Hmm, fair enough on wavedashing, although I dislike it because it looks unnatural and hurt the aesthetics of Melee. I would sooner remove l canceling altogether than just add more complications to the game, which would only make it harder for non pros. Smash Bros. does not aspire to be like Street Fighter.


2012:

member a: Wavedashing could be considered an exploit, it's just semantics really, but a glitch is a malfunction, which does not apply here. I believe the issue some take with l canceling is not that it doesn't add depth, but that it exists without viable alternatives to its use. If alternatives were added the complaint would be alleviated.

member b: Hmm, fair enough on wavedashing, although I dislike it because it looks unnatural and hurt the aesthetics of Melee. I would sooner remove l canceling altogether than just add more complications to the game, which would only make it harder for non pros. Smash Bros. does not aspire to be like Street Fighter.


2014:

member a: There is nothing wrong with tech skill. Stop trying to dumb down the game. l canceling is easy so why complain n00b.
member b: Tech skill is bad because elitists are bad. Less skill barriers = less elitists. L canceling doesn't add depth and therefore should go.


-_-

 

[Shikenshu]

"..too, even..."? I don't know how I should have wrote it. What I mean is that melee (as every other smash game) was enjoyed alot by casuals and that it would most likely have been enjoyed by them just as much if L-canceling had been automatic in the game.

But casuals enjoyed Melee EVEN with L-cancel and wavedash in the game, right? If there is l-cancelling and wavedash in Smash 4, casuals would probably still enjoy the game, because techs are not necessary to play casually.

 

[D-idara]

I know that feel Priap0s.


2006:

member a: There is nothing rong with advance techneeks! UR just a lazy n00b, filthy casual, derp, ect Get on mii level!!
member b: They are st00pid moves for tourney****!! You can't beat me without your wavedash canceling glitches! I hoep Sakorai makes them gone!!


2008:

member a: There is nothing wrong with advanced techniques. Wavedashing is not a glitch, it is a product of the game's physics, and l canceling is easy so why complain, n00b.
member b: Wavedashing is an exploit of the physics, making it something that wasn't intended, which is basically a glitch. L canceling doesn't add depth and therefore should go, tourneytard.


2010:

member a: Wavedashing could be considered an exploit, it's just semantics really, but a glitch is a malfunction, which does not apply here. I believe the issue some take with l canceling is not that it doesn't add depth, but that it exists without viable alternatives to its use. If alternatives were added the complaint would be alleviated.

member b: Hmm, fair enough on wavedashing, although I dislike it because it looks unnatural and hurt the aesthetics of Melee. I would sooner remove l canceling altogether than just add more complications to the game, which would only make it harder for non pros. Smash Bros. does not aspire to be like Street Fighter.


2012:

member a: Wavedashing could be considered an exploit, it's just semantics really, but a glitch is a malfunction, which does not apply here. I believe the issue some take with l canceling is not that it doesn't add depth, but that it exists without viable alternatives to its use. If alternatives were added the complaint would be alleviated.

member b: Hmm, fair enough on wavedashing, although I dislike it because it looks unnatural and hurt the aesthetics of Melee. I would sooner remove l canceling altogether than just add more complications to the game, which would only make it harder for non pros. Smash Bros. does not aspire to be like Street Fighter.


2014:

member a: There is nothing wrong with tech skill. Stop trying to dumb down the game. l canceling is easy so why complain n00b.
member b: Tech skill is bad because elitists are bad. Less skill barriers = less elitists. L canceling doesn't add depth and therefore should go.


-_-

You're wrong, I made quite a few civilized posts on the last page :I I gave valid reasons as to why L-Cancel's just a tech barrier and nothing more, and etilists ARE bad.

 

[Empyrean]

That last page had really good discussion going on. It's a damn shame that most of it was a bit too long to read.

 

[Johnknight1]

I can't believe that:
1. This thread hasn't changed its' title to something like "What should tech skill look like in Smash For?"
2. That because 1. didn't happen, this thread hasn't been closed.

This thread's title still bugs me. It implies that tech skill could be bad. Without technical skill or ability, you aren't playing a game; at best you are watching one. EVERY VIDEO GAME HAS TECH SKILL!!!

That rant aside, let me get to a current topic: Manual L-cancelling as a mechanic.

Before anyone says "it is an exploit", the Smash development team added it on purpose in Smash 64 (evidence: there's a guide how to do it on the Smash 64 Dojo, granted the way back time machine doesn't have the link to the page, and it was called something weird), and based on that evidence, I think it's safe to say the Melee development team (basically the same staff at HAL Laboratories that worked on Smash 64 plus pretty much everyone else at HAL) kept it in Melee on purpose.

Personally, I think manual L/Z-cancelling in its' current form is the dumbest thing ever. I mean, I can perform it, and generally it's pretty easy (except against the Ice Climbers and Fox's down air; literally those 2 things I will forever be spotty on), but I still think manual L-cancelling literally adds nothing. If you land it, no matter what, there are no negative repercussions, unless you are lacking in tech skill and say accidentally shield, which involves other technical abilities entirely.

If L-cancelling had a negative effect for using it, like by doing it you couldn't attack with a ground attack (but you could quickly do an aerial), and if you don't L-cancel you get a speed boost on the ground, then that's cool. I'm sure there's better examples, probably by @KumaOso specifically (I vaguely remember one he made), but that's all I got.

Also, this isn't something I will likely follow up on, but I don't like how small the window of L-cancelling is. It's kinda stupid, and really, it helps the Ice Climbers a lot (and they don't need that help).

So yeah, L/Z-cancelling should go away, but IMO, all smash games should have landing move lag at least about as fast as Melee's with L-cancelling AUTOMATICALLY in order to encourage offense and aerial attacks, as well as punish hard camping and stalling/hit and run tactics at ALL LEVELS OF PLAY!!!

I know before I discovered Z-cancelling in 2002 for Smash 64, I had a friend who primarily played said game by range move camping. Once I discovered it, my ability to punish him for camping was greater, and camping was a less valuable asset to him. I think that is the ultimate reason why Smash should have faster aerial cancelling (like the theorized automatic L-cancelling); to ensure that camping and stalling get punished HARD!!!

I think Smash needs such a mechanic, since its' basic functionality in movement is based around 2D platformers with open ranges rather than 2D traditional fighting game in small, confined areas.

 

[Empyrean]

I don't really know what my thoughts are on the subject (whether it should go or not), but so far I've heard two great alternatives for l-cancelling. The first is the aerial move lag reduction like you've said, which is more likely in the next Smash. The second has been thrown around quite a lot, and I don't remember who said it first, but they basically reasoned that since l-cancelling is accomplished through the shield button(s), then it could make sense if it actually reduced the size of the shield as a consequence of performing it. So a nairplane-happy Fox, for instance, could get his shield reduced to a point where it could be shield-poked or even broken easily.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't really know what my thoughts are on the subject (whether it should go or not), but so far I've heard two great alternatives for l-cancelling. The first is the aerial move lag reduction like you've said, which is more likely in the next Smash. The second has been thrown around quite a lot, and I don't remember who said it first, but they basically reasoned that since l-cancelling is accomplished through the shield button(s), then it could make sense if it actually reduced the size of the shield as a consequence of performing it. So a nairplane-happy Fox, for instance, could get his shield reduced to a point where it could be shield-poked or even broken easily.

Best idea about L-cancel is the idea I've been spouting about. :L

 

[guedes the brawler]

I don't really know what my thoughts are on the subject (whether it should go or not), but so far I've heard two great alternatives for l-cancelling. The first is the aerial move lag reduction like you've said, which is more likely in the next Smash. The second has been thrown around quite a lot, and I don't remember who said it first, but they basically reasoned that since l-cancelling is accomplished through the shield button(s), then it could make sense if it actually reduced the size of the shield as a consequence of performing it. So a nairplane-happy Fox, for instance, could get his shield reduced to a point where it could be shield-poked or even broken easily.

it was me, thank you very much.

 

[Empyrean]

Best idea about L-cancel is the idea I've been spouting about. :L

The problem I see with your idea is that it won't affect all the characters in the same way. Faster characters would have a better chance to get way from a failed shffle unpunished whereas characters like Ganon and Bowser will have a harder time (and will most likely get punished hard).

 

[mimgrim]

The problem I see with your idea is that it won't affect all the characters in the same way. Faster characters would have a better chance to get way from a failed shffle unpunished whereas characters like Ganon and Bowser will have a harder time (and will most likely get punished hard).

Simple solution.

Give the characters with low landing lag to begin with more. Or vice verse with Heavy characters.

This is a problem for L-cancel as is actually though. As heavy characters still have the most lag. And really isn't a fixable solution, that I can think of, besides what I stated in the sentence above. But in the end, it just a problem for Smash overall. Heavy characters are just naturally laggy and, usually, less viable then a lighter character. They need to be given things in other areas to really help them out. And their ground game should be explored a lot more anyway.

 

[Chiroz]

After reading over what you just said, in contrary to my point of my previous statement I wanted to address what you said on unnecessary technical barriers.

Pressing all of those buttons to block is ridiculous, yes, but it doesn't seem to far fetched from what is imposed on traditional fighters. Roman Canceling in Guilty Gear is done after you do an attack (P + K + S), so the fluidity of the input doing an attack would be something similar to 236 + P > (Hit) > P + K + S. While it is somewhat tedious, what it offers as a result is a beneficial and mutual decisions since you are aware that doing so you lose out on meter. Every action you take costs something, even blocking, when the cost of blocking would be more options to counter attack or read the opponents approach. With things in fighting games like option select having to press a myriad of buttons can potentially reap benefits while still allowing players to do things simply with button mapping.

I view most of these tech barriers as options. While most players cannot execute P + K + S to roman cancel, fighting games allow you to map buttons where there is an option (Unless you are in an arcade scene) to map the input to one button so R1 on a controller could be P + K + S. Even though not as extreme there are options for doing things in smash that seem like necessary technical inputs. Why would I grab with L+A instead of just pressing Z? Why would I throw an item with L+A+Direction on the stick instead of just pressing Z+Direction on the stick? Well, it presents you with options. If you run at the opponent and press L+A to grab you are basically buffering out a shield before you grab, so if the opponent happens to do something like a dash attack you can punish him, while doing just a regular dash grab can punish you. Same applies to throwing the item with L + A + Direction on the stick, you can block a projectile and throw an item back, or in Brawl you can glide toss.

While somethings do seem ridiculous I do believe that there are other ways to remedy the issues instead of just eliminating them all together. Technical barriers in my opinion are a choice since you don't necessarily need to learn them to play the game, and in some cases you don't need to learn them all to be proficient.

I understand what you are expressing, and I wanto to clarify that I am not against advanced techs (like Roman cancel), I was just discussing that having over difficult inputs is not necessary.

I understand wavedash is not a hard input, but there is no reason why it couldn't be made simpler.

For example: having a new button mapped to Wavedash. This button + tilting the control stick in a diagonal downwards direction (or a horizontal direction for a "perfect wavedash") results in a wavedash just the same as if you had jumped before. This takes away a button out of the equation (the jump button), thus simplifying the input without losing anything from the actual technique.

My personal opinion is that techniques should be difficult to figure out and to implement on your playstyle, but learning to execute them should be simple and straight foward.

He might not have used the best examples to support his argument, but I think he does ultimately have a point.

If wave dashing is something that you absolutely must know how to use to be able to compete then it might be a problem. That's where the "official" game mechanic vs exploit part comes in. If it were officially implemented along with other basic mechanics then the game could convey it to you directly and you could learn about it naturally. As it stands now though, It doesn't make sense for something like wave dashing to be essential to the game.

How difficult it is to actually do is something else entirely. Just because something can be made easier, doesn't always mean that it should be. Again though, wave dashing is a different case considering how fundamental it is and what it does. Some people think it's not really hard at all and it's fine as it is, but it wouldn't be a detriment to the game to make it easier. Ultimately, if Sakurai decided to bring it back it would be up to him to decide if the input is too difficult or not.

"Execution barriers are bad, add nothing, and shouldn't exist" isn't a good enough justification for making it easier though. It's silly to think it's possible to completely rid a game of execution barriers without dumbing it down. The higher you climb the more likely you are to encounter them. The Fox/Falco vs MK comparison was good for that. All 3 are very good, but Fox/Falco are also notorious for being hard to use. In a way they're like Zero.

UMvC3 is already more simple than past games LMH system, dedicated launcher button, dial-a-combo), but regardless of that it still has execution barriers. Zero is good at converting off of stray hits and he can easily kill in 1 combo, but he's not easy to use. Imagine how much worse it would be if his lightning loops were made stupid easy and Zero players never dropped them.

There's nothing strategic about doing a combo, once you land that first hit you want to squeeze out as much damage as possible to get closer and closer to wining. Long max damage combos like that are purely execution barriers that rely on memory and timing, but they're appropriate. It balances Zero out by making you have to put forth the effort to get the most out of him, instead of effortlessly destroying anybody that uses a worse character. An execution barrier doesn't always need strategic value to be relevant to a game.

But Fox has the exact same inputs as any other chatacter does. His difficulty comes from implementing his playstyle not from having harder inputs. Obviously it is harder to combo with Fox but those have to do with timing and spacing + the properties of his own character, it doesn't have to do with inputs themselves.

I haven't discussed about whether or not there should be difficulty in the game as a whole, I am just saying that placing difficulty on input is bad design, because it is.

I understand your combo argument and its the whole reason why I detest "true" combos in traditional fighters. I understand there are people who like it and as long as there is a crowd for it then it will be popular. I guess in the end "good" design could be viewed as that which is wanted by your clientele, at least for niche games like hardcore fighters.

Still I much rather prefer Smash's system which does require strategic planning, tricking and reading your opponent.



Dont hate I read your post and I will reply when I have the time, I appreciate you trying not to make me "look bad" but you completely missed the point of the post by a long margin and didn't actually reply to what I was discussing.

For now, see you later.

 

[Priap0s]

But casuals enjoyed Melee EVEN with L-cancel and wavedash in the game, right? If there is l-cancelling and wavedash in Smash 4, casuals would probably still enjoy the game, because techs are not necessary to play casually.

Thats exactly what Im saying if you had read where the comment originated from!
Someone was arguing that L-canceling was a good thing. Reason: because with automatic cut landing lag, casuals wouldnt have liked the game. They would have found the games speed and/or the speed of arial-to-ground combat off putting.
I just said I disagree and think the game would have been just as popular among casuals with or withour automatic L-canceling. So in my opinion that isn't a valid argument for the existens of manual L-canceling vs Automatic cut landing lag.



ps: I agree D-idara. You have been very civil and put forward your believes, and the reasoning behind them, very well the last pages here. Big ups for that. I'll admit I have found you to be pretty annoying and one sided from time to time. So keep it up!

 

[Manty]

But Fox has the exact same inputs as any other chatacter does. His difficulty comes from implementing his playstyle not from having harder inputs.

Zero isn't hard purely on an execution level, I only brought up his combo because that's the part relevant to my point.

I haven't discussed about whether or not there should be difficulty in the game as a whole, I am just saying that placing difficulty on input is bad design, because it is.

I wasn't talking about general difficulty, I was saying that execution requirements are a natural part of a game and that they aren't bad design. Making something needlessly complex would be bad, but can anybody give me an example of a game that actually does that? I don't think there's a game that makes you press L+R, X,Y,Z,A,A,B+L, just to jump one time.

Most of the time I don't think things are intentionally made to be difficult. UMvC has simplified inputs and is very lenient on timing for chaining moves. Zero's combo isn't hard because it was specifically made to be (I doubt the dev team was even aware of it), it just is because of the nature of his move set. Wave dashing is similar (though I don't think it's hard) and is not needlessly complex. You wave dash by air dodging into the ground, but you have to be in the air to air dodge so you jump first.

You said there's no reason wave dashing couldn't be made easier, but because of how it works in its current form, it technically can't get any more simple than it already is. You only use one button to jump, one to air dodge, and the stick for controlling your direction. If you take away a button you're removing a part of the process somewhere. To make it only one button+stick direction you would have to make it an independent technique and change how it works. In this case that would be fine and not detrimental to the game, but the fact that you would have to alter how the technique works goes back to my original point.

"Execution barriers are bad" is flawed reasoning, and everything can't (and shouldn't) always be made easy to do. Most of the time they're a natural part of the game. Wave dashing, like a lot of other things, is a combination of multiple, separate actions. If you applied the same logic to Zero's combo and made it (exactly as it is now) his QCF super, or did the same thing for Kabal's nomad dash cancels and made it a one button input, it would be insanely broken. If you don't want a horribly broken game those things would get removed, but apply that logic to everything in an entire game and you just go through steadily dumbing it down in the process. For some people to think that execution requirements are just arbitrarily thrown in to get in a players way, and the only purpose they serve is making elitists feel good about themselves, is asinine.

To reiterate one more time, when it comes to wave dashing and how it works, it would be ok to simplify it and make it an independent technique. I don't think anybody particularly cares or thinks you hurt the depth of the game by removing the jump part of the process. It's just that the logic people use to try to justify that is bad :/.

I understand your combo argument and its the whole reason why I detest "true" combos in traditional fighters. I understand there are people who like it and as long as there is a crowd for it then it will be popular. I guess in the end "good" design could be viewed as that which is wanted by your clientele, at least for niche games like hardcore fighters.

Still I much rather prefer Smash's system which does require strategic planning, tricking and reading your opponent.

Don't like them because they become increasingly difficult or because they don't require strategy?

I think the new Killer Instinct handles it ok. If the comboer is too predictable they get combo broken, but if the comboee does the breaker incorrectly they get locked out. There's also counter breakers so the comboer can bait out a combo breaker and force the opponent into an extended lock out.

 

[smashbro29]

Every time I browse this forum I see "why do people disagree with tech skill" and I think to myself "Is the topic creator from an English speaking country and if so how old are they?"

How does one disagree with tech skill? Is tech skill the nickname for a player or something?

 

[LancerStaff]

Every time I browse this forum I see "why do people disagree with tech skill" and I think to myself "Is the topic creator from an English speaking country and if so how old are they?"

How does one disagree with tech skill? Is tech skill the nickname for a player or something?

It was probably directed at me if you were wondering. It's a long story...About 29 pages of long story.

 

[smashbro29]

It was probably directed at me if you were wondering. It's a long story...About 29 pages of long story.

Regardless, that is some appalling English.

 

[elatedshyguy]

It was probably directed at me if you were wondering. It's a long story...About 29 pages of long story.

Well returning to my thread, after much more experience with Smash and fighting games in general, I have realized that I had a very bad view of the "advance techniques" in Melee. I finally understand how L-cancelling is just a barrier, and shouldn't exist. I recently picked up SF, and I really enjoy it. I don't have to worry about arbitrary controls in order to be able to combo. I just have to concern myself with connecting the attacks. I went back to Project M after a few SF sessions, and realized how annoying it was having to manually cancel lag in order to be "allowed" to connect attacks. It doesn't make sense to me anymore lol. Sorry dude for any harsh feelings, you must know the phrase, "I was young and stupid." Haha.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Regardless, that is some appalling English.

Dude relax, it's the internet. Nobody cares as long as you understand what the message is trying to convey.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Fixed the name of the thread for those who had an issue with it. I recently picked up SF, and I am really enjoying it. My account is going to be inactive, for I am done with Smash. This thread can be taken down, if any one wishes to do so.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

It is always debated, and I just don't understand why. Even among us, the minority who see Smash as a real fighter, we have people who hate techniques like wavdashing even after Sakurai confirmed that he decided to leave it in the games programming. I mean all wavedashing does is add more possibilities for characters. I mean look at waveshine combos. Look at Marth's combo where he wavedashes and pokes and rinse and repeats.

Wavedashing was an approach option that also complemented mind games.

People argue that:
- it is too hard and takes to much time to learn
- since it takes so long to learn, people who have work won't be as good as those who have time to practice

Believe it or not the second argument presented above was an actual argument on my previous thread speaking on Miiverse.
Obviously, people who have little recreational time will not be focused on going to video game tournaments so they wouldn't need to practice advance techniques. And let's say they did want to got to tournaments, obviously they would use free time to practice their tech skill if they aren't already competent and are dead serious about going to tournaments.

In the end what I want frustratingly hard headed people to understand is that if Smash is a fighting game, any and every new skill that adds options and depth should always be welcomed because they give characters more options for combos. They add variety and that's great. What are some arguments people have given you? What are your arguments for or against tech skill?

Oh and I have a topic that I want to know the community's thoughts on. I've realized that with the constant rejection of furthering the competitive scene in Smash on Sakurai's behalf, the Smash community is finding ways to do it ourselves. Project M, Brawl +, all of these mods are examples. And the most interesting of all is Air Dodge Online or something like that. It is a completely separate game from Smash yet it borrow's the gameplay from Smash. Now this game could potentially rob Smash of a lot of players, I mean by the looks of things Sakurai really doesn't want Smash to be thought of a serious fighter, I mean in an interview he admits he doesn't even refer to it as a fighter, and how long can Melee stay in the game, yeah it's been 13 years but let's say when Smash reaches it's 6th title do you seriously believe people are gonna still be playing Melee at huge events? Games need to evolve to stay fresh and Melee is on it's second heart out of three (Zelda reference lol). What do you think about the future of Smash?

You forgot arguably one of the most important things...

- It looks stupid.

Listen, I think Wavedashing is cool as a technique, and the depth it adds is great, but it honestly isn't aesthetically pleasing. It makes the characters look like they are spazzing all over the stage.

It could also be argued that its input is a technical barrier.

Shield rolling is seen to have been dramatically buffed in Smash 4, and thus, arguably replaces the need for Wave dashing as both a defensive and offensive mobility option, while at the same time keeping it aesthetically in line with the rest of the game as shield rolling is a basic mechanic that anyone can do without the need for well-timed input.

 

[Juan Leonardo]

You forgot arguably one of the most important things...

- It looks stupid.

Listen, I think Wavedashing is cool as a technique, and the depth it adds is great, but it honestly isn't aesthetically pleasing. It makes the characters look like they are spazzing all over the stage.

It could also be argued that its input is a technical barrier.

Shield rolling is seen to have been dramatically buffed in Smash 4, and thus, arguably replaces the need for Wave dashing as both a defensive and offensive mobility option, while at the same time keeping it aesthetically in line with the rest of the game as shield rolling is a basic mechanic that anyone can do without the need for well-timed input.

Wavedashing allowed for players to attack out of it. I don't think this is possible with dodging in Super Smash Bros. 4. Thus, I would not say dodging replaces wavedashing. I will admit, wavedashing is in fact quite awkward, and we could do without it. There is no reason Super Smash Bros. should be the only fighting game with ugly animations and mechanics. In fact, I think that is what Sakurai wants, clean gameplay. Super Smash Bros. is great without awkward mechanics. Things like momentum jumping, cancelling dashes into crouches, and pivot grabbing are all awesome mechanics that increase mobility, give us options, and are logical. Sakurai should bring those back, and focusing on implementing more mechanics like those. Which, I do believe he is doing.

I heard air dodges are now punishable in Super Smash Bros. 4.

 

[DontBliNk]

I agree with you Juan, those things would be great and can still be implemented because of their simplicity. I feel like sakurai is gonna add something new to the game and hopefully something that benefits from alot of the depth lost within brawl. There is a reason why the invitational chose those 16 and most of them play melee competitively or at least at some point they did. I think these people were chosen to give feedback because nintendo and sakurai know in fact that the competitive scene will always have something to say about the game where most casuals will just not argue and agree with everything. This is not a good thing because even myself as a 3d modeler, if I'm gonna put a character in a game I need criticism on that character. It shouldn't just be "oh well...it looks fine!" but rather "hmm you think you can possibly change this or that to make it seem more natural" as an example.

Other than the tourney players at the invitational I think others like Ken and KDJ gave good feedback on the game and what they would want to see. The problem people have is its too close to brawl rather than a new game feel. It should in no way be close to melee either but a new experience. All we can do though is wait and see what sakurai and the team will do in these months before release. If the landing lag is reduced then theres no need for the L cancel even if people want to just do it "because" its better if its automatic or simple. Any other ways to make mobility in the game is also a plus but no wavedashing is needed.

The competitive scene, well most of them just want more options and it doesn't have to result in a melee clone but have some depth to make it possibly better with new ways to deal with your opponents. Sakurai can't say melee was an accident because he already made it, it was his idea's as well as others which is no accident. Whats done is done and now instead of just having to copy it over he can try to come up with new things that can still keep balance in the game. Nintendo and sakurai are trying to please everyone but the feedback is needed to know how to please them.

 

[Saikyoshi]

As much as I loved Melee's mechanics, things like wavedashing repeatedly hurt my hands and wrists, and I've had to learn how to play competently without it.

And Smooth Landing (as it was called in the N64 version) looks like it will functionally be automatic this time around, if what I heard about dramatic landing lag reduction is to be believed.

 

[Juan Leonardo]

The whole lag issue is solved well by merely cutting it. With attacks like Link's down aerial, a little recovery lag is necessary, because he drives his sword into the ground. However, attacks that aren't similar to Link's down aerial should have little to no lag to refresh. That way players could connect attacks and combo.

I agree with Elatedshyguy, having to manually cancel lag to be allowed to combo is really irritating. I found myself, multiple times, quitting Melee or Project M, during friendly matches, because I would get punished for missing a l-cancel. It just sucked that I would get punished for trying to speed up laggy attacks manually to be able to connect attacks. It even sounds ridiculous saying that, ha-ha. If less lag is an option, just give me less lag from the start.

I don't know whatever happened to Brawl+. The developers really did well with it. They created the perfect Super Smash Bros. game. I can't believe they dropped it for Project M (Melee 2.0).

 

[Saikyoshi]

I don't know whatever happened to Brawl+. The developers really did well with it. They created the perfect Super Smash Bros. game, I can't believe they dropped it for Project M (Melee 2.0).

• Lack of a clear goal
• Lack of support
• New hacking technology emerging
• The desire to make a clear identity and not just a simple tweak

 

[C_Mill24]

I can live without L-Cancelling and Wavedashing to be honest, as much as I love Melee.

 

[D-idara]

From the looks of things, you don't seem to keep it as much, but running momentum IS slightly retained when jumping on Smash4, at least much more than Brawl. I'm personally OK for just lower landing lag overall and grabs that allow more follow-ups without enabling cheap chaingrabs.

 

[smashbro29]

Dude relax, it's the internet. Nobody cares as long as you understand what the message is trying to convey.

That's the thing man, the stupid way it was written hurt my brain.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Well returning to my thread, after much more experience with Smash and fighting games in general, I have realized that I had a very bad view of the "advance techniques" in Melee. I finally understand how L-cancelling is just a barrier, and shouldn't exist. I recently picked up SF, and I really enjoy it. I don't have to worry about arbitrary controls in order to be able to combo. I just have to concern myself with connecting the attacks. I went back to Project M after a few SF sessions, and realized how annoying it was having to manually cancel lag in order to be "allowed" to connect attacks. It doesn't make sense to me anymore lol. Sorry dude for any harsh feelings, you must know the phrase, "I was young and stupid." Haha.

really? i have an easy time doing combos in PM with no adv techs whatsoever. if only traditional fighters were as intuitive with their combo systems...

 

[Hitzel]

I could be wrong, but was Melee the first game ever to feature wavedashing? If it was, then the fact that Marvel 3 implemented wavedashing says a lot(in my opinion).
Just look at that Sentinel:

I'm sure this was already mentioned, but Smash is not the first game to have Wavedashing in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLHSetr63o4

 

[Malex]

I'm sure this was already mentioned, but Smash is not the first game to have Wavedashing in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLHSetr63o4

It's been a long time since I've talked/read about this. But the term "wave dash" is borrowed from a technique from Tekken (not sure which one, pre-melee) with a "similar" (using that loosely) effect, which would be a slight movement forward with the ability to attack out of it. I'm busy right now, but will clarify when I get the chance.

Also, the sentinel "wave dashing" video is certainly not a wave dash. That is a crouch-cancelled dash.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Regardless of whether or not Melee was the first to have wavedashing as we know it, it was the first to have it as a vital part of the metagame.

It's why I'm kind of bummed that Air Dash Online was cancelled, because a fighting game intentionally focused on and encouraging the more competitive aspects would be a bit more fun to do it with than one that's purely accidental like Melee or nostalgia-based like P:M. I just can't take how Melee handles it seriously - every match I try to watch is just everyone sliding around like idiots without doing anything while I'm just "For goodness' sakes, throw a ****ing punch".

Maybe I'm just watching the wrong matches.

 

[Niala]

For me, the issue of advance tactics has little to do with the techniques themselves, and more to do with how overbearing they are on overall gameplay. For that reason, wavedashing and L-cancelling are the two techs I would hate to see return. I also feel as though they significantly heighten the barrier of entry.

That being said, as long as the gameplay doesn't revolve around techs, then I'm perfectly fine with having them. Brawl has techs that I use with relative frequency, and enjoy incorporating them into my personal gameplay style. It's not really the idea of movement options I don't like, it's when the gameplay becomes based almost solely on those techs and the amount of inputs gets out of control that turns me off the game. I wish I had a better solution.

 

[Hitzel]

It's been a long time since I've talked/read about this. But the term "wave dash" is borrowed from a technique from Tekken (not sure which one, pre-melee) with a "similar" (using that loosely) effect, which would be a slight movement forward with the ability to attack out of it. I'm busy right now, but will clarify when I get the chance.

Also, the sentinel "wave dashing" video is certainly not a wave dash. That is a crouch-cancelled dash.

Crouched canceled dashes in Marvel are referred to as Wavedashing, always have been. Air dashes angled diagonally down to move forward are referred to as Triangle Dashes in Marvel, although they really don't work the same way as Smash Wavedashes because momentum doesn't carry into ground movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdbN08HHrhg

I don't know a lot about Tekken, but I know the original Tekken Wavedash was done by inputting a Shoryuken input repeatedly. Pretty sure it still works like that in the new ones.

Regardless of whether or not Melee was the first to have wavedashing as we know it, it was the first to have it as a vital part of the metagame.

That's really not true though, most advanced movement techniques in fighting games become a big part of their metagames.

 

[Malex]

Crouched canceled dashes in Marvel are referred to as Wavedashing, always have been. Air dashes angled diagonally down to move forward are referred to as Triangle Dashes in Marvel, although they really don't work the same way as Smash Wavedashes because momentum doesn't carry into ground movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdbN08HHrhg

I don't know a lot about Tekken, but I know the original Tekken Wavedash was done by inputting a Shoryuken input repeatedly. Pretty sure it still works like that in the new ones.



That's really not true though, most advanced movement techniques in fighting games become a big part of their metagames.

Interesting. Why would a community feel the need to make up a name for something that already has a name?

 

[Hitzel]

Interesting. Why would a community feel the need to make up a name for something that already has a name?

Are you referring to the Smash community using the term Wavedash, or the Marvel community?

I'm pretty sure that after Tekken popularized Wavedashing, communities that found "advanced dashing techniques" called the techniques Wavedashes because it was a popular word. "Aww cool! You can Wavedash in this game!"

 

[LancerStaff]

That's the thing man, the stupid way it was written hurt my brain.

Geeze, I let some bad grammar get by one night. Big deal.

 

[Malex]

Are you referring to the Smash community using the term Wavedash, or the Marvel community?

I'm pretty sure that after Tekken popularized Wavedashing, communities that found "advanced dashing techniques" called the techniques Wavedashes because it was a popular word. "Aww cool! You can Wavedash in this game!"

MvC. I think "crouch-cancelled dash" is a fine descriptor of what's happening, but I guess I'm just a simple man in a complex world.