The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[Leonyx]

They don't have hidden techs that completely change movement. Anything that affects the meta-game so much is blatantly shown in tutorials, booklets and more. You don't have to go online and find other people who've learned it to find out its existence, it's right there, and can't be argued.

I believe Tekken has that stupid looking forward dash thing (I'm biased since I hate Tekken), and I don't think that's in the tutorial. I don't play Tekken though, so can someone confirm this?

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I don't know of any other fighting games that require you to go online and research advanced techniques. Every other game I've played has put them right in the tutorial and doesn't try to hide anything. Why should Smash be any different?

Something tells me you don't really play any other fighting game besides Chao Karate.

Super Smash Bros. doesn't try to hide anything like that because they're aren't recognized in development or they are passed off as irrelevant, insignificant, or useless oddities. If you can't think of a reason why Wavedashing would be preferable over rolling or walking sideways, why include it in the manual? And do you really think they would have known about the Gatlin Combo in Brawl? Besides, virtually all "advanced techniques" are player-discovered exploits of the game engine. Every game has them and sometimes it's just design oversight but you can't really blame the creators for everything. Back in my StarCraft 2 days, it was the Void Ray Faze exploit where you could bring a massive DoT beam up to full power by rapidly changing targets.

Nintendo could officially acknowledge and elaborate on advanced techniques in Super Smash Bros. but unfortunately their top-level design reasoning doesn't have room for that. They don't have the desire to catologue all of Super Smash Bros. technique because in their minds it's not a game of raw competition.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I doubt all the anti-competitive players would suddenly be fine with ATs such as Wavedashing if it were clearly explained in a booklet or tutorial. Call it a hunch.

 

[LancerStaff]

They don't have hidden techs that completely change movement. Anything that affects the meta-game so much is blatantly shown in tutorials, booklets and more. You don't have to go online and find other people who've learned it to find out its existence, it's right there, and can't be argued.

Sorry, when I usually say "techs" I'm referring to glitches.

I doubt all the anti-competitive players would suddenly be fine with ATs such as Wavedashing if it were clearly explained in a booklet or tutorial. Call it a hunch.

Correct. I think Wavedashing is out of place in SSB (since you o so clearly aimed the message at me, regardless of what I actually am), and actual anti-competitive players would be as against it as they are against for Glory.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I doubt all the anti-competitive players would suddenly be fine with ATs such as Wavedashing if it were clearly explained in a booklet or tutorial. Call it a hunch.

It's hard to get even an inexperienced, interested player out of the party game button-mashing habits to use non-AT moves properly, or at all, like grabs, shields, or teching even though they are all in the manual. You rarely see grabs in casual play outside of people doing it for their "cool factor" like Falco or Bowser.

And then you get the crowd that thinks hitting people before they land again isn't fair... What an ordeal.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's hard to get even an inexperienced, interested player out of the party game button-mashing habits to use non-AT moves properly, or at all, like grabs, shields, or teching even though they are all in the manual. You rarely see grabs in casual play outside of people doing it for their "cool factor" like Falco or Bowser.

And then you get the crowd that thinks hitting people before they land again isn't fair... What an ordeal.

I just turn on the tutorial for them if they complain. I actually did this at the invitational to make a sore stone spamer shut up.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Correct. I think Wavedashing is out of place in SSB (since you o so clearly aimed the message at me, regardless of what I actually am), and actual anti-competitive players would be as against it as they are against for Glory.

No, it wasn't directed at you, it was a pseudo-reply to Ogre_Deity_Link's post. That's the second time today you replied in a manner that suggested my post was a personal response to you. If I have something to say to you specifically I'll quote you or mention you by name.

 

[Butt Luckily]

They don't have hidden techs that completely change movement. Anything that affects the meta-game so much is blatantly shown in tutorials, booklets and more. You don't have to go online and find other people who've learned it to find out its existence, it's right there, and can't be argued.

It would take someone with a deeper knowledge to provide more in-depth insight to the games. But, because I would count as a "new player", I shouldn't be able to find, in most games, a core technique that is also not in the manual that I would need an online guide to find.

I don't think you'd find anything like wavedashing and triangle-jumping explained in the manual in the way it is used in competitive play for MvC3.

SF saw dragon punches and Valle CC.

TTT2 has bound combos.

Tekken had the original wavedashing.

I vaguely remember reading about Roman Cancelling in the GG instruction manual back on PS2. But are False Roman Cancelling and Instant Air Dashing in there?

If snaking were in the Mario Kart instruction manual, I don't think the use of it would be controversial.

Puzzle Fighter has the diamond trick.

There are several techniques in F-Zero GX that are powerful, and are not in the instruction manual.

Quick Scoping is not really how the sniper is meant to be used, and I'm sure the regular use of that technique is not in the manual.

Wall Bouncing is not in the manual of Gears of War.

DBZ T2 has Ground & Pound.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It would take someone with a deeper knowledge to provide more in-depth insight to the games. But, because I would count as a "new player", I shouldn't be able to find, in most games, a core technique that is also not in the manual that I would need an online guide to find.

I don't think you'd find anything like wavedashing and triangle-jumping explained in the manual in the way it is used in competitive play for MvC3.

SF saw dragon punches and Valle CC.

TTT2 has bound combos.

Tekken had the original wavedashing.

I vaguely remember reading about Roman Cancelling in the GG instruction manual back on PS2. But are False Roman Cancelling and Instant Air Dashing in there?

If snaking were in the Mario Kart instruction manual, I don't think the use of it would be controversial.

Puzzle Fighter has the diamond trick.

There are several techniques in F-Zero GX that are powerful, and are not in the instruction manual.

Quick Scoping is not really how the sniper is meant to be used, and I'm sure the regular use of that technique is not in the manual.

Wall Bouncing is not in the manual of Gears of War.

DBZ T2 has Ground & Pound.

0_o...

Damn...is no game good on its own merits?

 

[Boss N]

I know there's a lot of people out there calling Sm4sh Brawl 2, & while I can't agree with this notion I also can't deny that the game does borrow a lot of conventions from Brawl, including all the elements that streamlined the gamely. (Removal of techs for example) But my question for all of you is this; Is that really a bad thing? Before I go on I want anyone who wishes to contribute to the discussion to watch these two videos by Extra Credits, incredibly insightful stuff and what inspired this topic, they're quick enjoyable watches a little over 5mins each so they won't take to long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKGDealc3eE Extra Credits: Pro Gaming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_xG1Yg_QoM Extra Credits: Fighting Game Problem

Now I'm gonna try to keep my opinion on this as brief as possible but still might be a hefty read. Basically when I talk to a lot of players who come from Melee, project M, or former Brawl now strictly PM converts, most of them seem to disagree with Sakurai's philosophy of giving everyone an equal chance of winning and being able to compete. They seem to want to keep the competitive community this small, tight niche group of only the most dedicated players, and this is the attitude a lot of other fighting game communities have.

But this CANNOT be the route we take if we want this community to grow and Smash Brothers to be recognized along other big eSports games.

What makes Smash Brothers so special among other fighting games is that it doesn't strictly focus itself on solely it's veterans, up until now it's always been geared towards a casual audience or towards those who don't regularly play fighting games, and as this series progresses it's becoming easier and easier to play on a competitive level. Not easy enough where any shmup can pick up the game for the first time & beat M2K, but deep enough so that those who really want to strive for that glory can, and not be blocked by a brick wall of needlessly complicated skills.

I for one suck at fighting games besides Smash because of that wall. I can't memorize specific combos for the life of me and special moves with their wonky joystick directions I for some reason just can never do consistently. But Melee has something similar going on (albeit not nearly as bad as most other fighters) As someone who played a lot of Brawl trying to learn PM, the tech skills it brought over from Melee are posing a similar challenge. Besides L-cancelling I cannot do wave dashing and other techs for the life of me, but it seems that (especially in Melee) at a certain level you HAVE to have these skills mastered in order to compete at the highest level. And this cuts off a lot of people who enjoy the game who would like to take it further and increases the divide between the casuals from the Competitive. (more on that in a bit)

However with streamlined gameplay where the necessity of tech skills is either lessened or even made optional (note that I'm not suggesting them to be removed all together cuz that's just silly for those who do enjoy the greater depth it gives the game) not only makes it easier for those who want to compete, but easier for those who want to watch as well, as it'e easier to understand whats going on and more appreciate the skill players achieve.

You may list Brawl's flaws all you want but one positive thing that cannot be denied about it is that it introduced even more people to the game to the point where anyone of any gaming background or passing knowledge, knows instantly what the game is. It's a household name yet many still aren't aware of the competitive community or outright object to it's existence.
Why is that?
I believe it's because we focus solely on OUR way of playing and no others. The whole Fox Only Final Destination Items Off trope spawned from the fact that competitive players refuse to play in an environment that doesn't warrant neutral conditions. And because of this casual players are very hostile towards the way we play, claiming that we're playing the game wrong and using nothing but broken glitches. And while we have every reason to be salty against these accusations, bitterness isn't the way to solve things. We should unite the sides, not separate them.

Not trying to imply we're in the wrong here, what I'm trying to get at is that we need to be more accepting of the casual crowd, they're the pool that new talents and champions crawl out of and they're our audience, if we want to get bigger we need to extend our reach to them, and the invitational proved that they can get wrapped up in the scene just as much as we do given the right conditions, and simplified gameplay can be one of those conditions.

Again, NOT suggesting we have to change tournament rules to include items, just trying to make people think more critically about what else this game could do outside this community and what we could do ourselves. Besides, would it really be a bad thing to mix things up just a little this time around?

 

[LancerStaff]

No, it wasn't directed at you, it was a pseudo-reply to Ogre_Deity_Link's post. That's the second time today you replied in a manner that suggested my post was a personal response to you. If I have something to say to you specifically I'll quote you or mention you by name.

It's awful hard to tell who you're talking to when you're not saying who you're talking to. You might want to cut back on the indirect snark.

 

[Butt Luckily]

0_o...

Damn...is no game good on its own merits?

How are "advanced techniques" not considered a merit of the game?

Why are the merits of a game only determined by what can be found in the instruction manual or in-game tutorial?

The instruction manual only has the original 8 characters of Smash 64. Would you not use the unlockable characters or consider them part of the game?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Now I'm gonna try to keep my opinion on this as brief as possible but still might be a hefty read. Basically when I talk to a lot of players who come from Melee, project M, or former Brawl now strictly PM converts, most of them seem to disagree with Sakurai's philosophy of giving everyone an equal chance of winning and being able to compete.

I'm not against giving both parties an equal chance to win, I am against against making a game cater to the person who is losing in a non-Lucario-aura like way, if it is compedtive, people should be aiming for a win. Why undermind someone who is winning by giving the losing player a pat on the back to catch up?

 

[Boss N]

I'm not against giving both parties an equal chance to win, I am against against making a game cater to the person who is losing in a non-Lucario-aura like way, if it is compedtive, people should be aiming for a win. Why undermind someone who is winning by giving the losing player a pat on the back to catch up?

There are plenty of people who aim to win, but their fingers aren't fast enough for tech skills, this isolates them and makes it more intimidating to those of only a passing know;edge of the competitive scene.

"these people are way higher than I'll ever hope to be"

The point is not to eliminate tech but make it more optional than a necessity, the less intimidating we make it appear to the casual crowd, the more inclined they'll be to watch since it'll make them think

"maybe I can be that good one day"

and will get them more invested to at least watch if not compete. this was a point illustrated in the Pro Gaming video I linked if you watched it and can mean nothing but great things to the scene's growth and recognition.

 

[JV5Chris]

0_o...
Damn...is no game good on its own merits?

The merits of a fighting game do coincide with the players. It's not the type of genre where the entirety of the experience is set in stone once a game ships, nor should it be.

 

[Malex]

What exactly is the necessary criteria that must be met for an "Advanced Tactic" to be acceptable for use? Or should we not use them at all?

Honestly, can we even agree on a definition of "Advanced Tactic" that is meaningful and separates "good" ones from "bad" ones?

 

[guedes the brawler]

I doubt all the anti-competitive players would suddenly be fine with ATs such as Wavedashing if it were clearly explained in a booklet or tutorial. Call it a hunch.

as i said before, maybe not here, this is by far the main issue with ATs, but there are other, significant things that NEED to be taken care of to get ATs to be liked by casuals:

1- input must makes gameplay sense, instead of just logical sense. Wavedash's input is perfectly reasonable if you know why it's happening and what causes it... but for the casuals? it's a ground movement tech that is for some dumb reason using jump and dodge commands instead of being just it's own button or having a simple analogic input. preferably both, just like jump has tap jump and buttons

2- The tech must not only be explained, it must be also shown effectively. Traditional fighters make this mistake almost always. It's no great use to most casuals just to know how to wavedash, officially or not. The "when" is the most important thing, and while one could look at the webz... it's bad game design to give us something and say nothing about how to use it.

having CPU using it, even if not to it's full potential, is the way to go. Leave the "use it to it's maximum potential" to the players, but the CPU must shed a light at how to use the techs.

This applies to a lot of stuff in smash, like Teching or Meteor Cancelling

3- Explaining why it's useful and when there are better options + balancing

we'd need a better tutorial than what we get usually for this, something that goes tech by tech. anyways, what i mean is "why should i wavedash when i could roll?" is something that shouldn't ever happen if the tech was official.

But sadly, WD happens to outclass rolls almost everytime... so there needs to be some balancing around these options if wavedash is to return. Just like there is some balance between out-of-tech options, or defensive option.


That's not the only balancing wavedash needs. The benefit of WD comes form one's traction stat... the devs didn't plan for it, and it really shows on Luigi, for example, who gets great mobility when he wasn't supposed to have it... the WD boost needs to be something the characters are designed with from the get go.

 

[Dracometeor]

as i said before, maybe not here, this is by far the main issue with ATs, but there are other, significant things that NEED to be taken care of to get ATs to be liked by casuals:

1- input must makes gameplay sense, instead of just logical sense. Wavedash's input is perfectly reasonable if you know why it's happening and what causes it... but for the casuals? it's a ground movement tech that is for some dumb reason using jump and dodge commands instead of being just it's own button or having a simple analogic input. preferably both, just like jump has tap jump and buttons

2- The tech must not only be explained, it must be also shown effectively. Traditional fighters make this mistake almost always. It's no great use to most casuals just to know how to wavedash, officially or not. The "when" is the most important thing, and while one could look at the webz... it's bad game design to give us something and say nothing about how to use it.

having CPU using it, even if not to it's full potential, is the way to go. Leave the "use it to it's maximum potential" to the players, but the CPU must shed a light at how to use the techs.

This applies to a lot of stuff in smash, like Teching or Meteor Cancelling

3- Explaining why it's useful and when there are better options + balancing

we'd need a better tutorial than what we get usually for this, something that goes tech by tech. anyways, what i mean is "why should i wavedash when i could roll?" is something that shouldn't ever happen if the tech was official.

But sadly, WD happens to outclass rolls almost everytime... so there needs to be some balancing around these options if wavedash is to return. Just like there is some balance between out-of-tech options, or defensive option.


That's not the only balancing wavedash needs. The benefit of WD comes form one's traction stat... the devs didn't plan for it, and it really shows on Luigi, for example, who gets great mobility when he wasn't supposed to have it... the WD boost needs to be something the characters are designed with from the get go.

The problem with your second point is that the developers don't know how to use the AT's at a competitive level or in ideal situations since they don't play competitively.

Think of how Call of Duty is. Do they teach you how to throw effective grenades? No. Do they teach you how to take cover effectively? Do they teach you when to reload? Do they teach you when to dropshot? Jump shot? Quick scope? No. It's how games are.

 

[guedes the brawler]

The problem with your second point is that the developers don't know how to use the AT's at a competitive level or in ideal situations since they don't play competitively.

Think of how Call of Duty is. Do they teach you how to throw effective grenades? No. Do they teach you how to take cover effectively? Do they teach you when to reload? Do they teach you when to dropshot? Jump shot? Quick scope? No. It's how games are.

there is no need to go over tevery single use of the official techs, if they are as deep as wavedash is, but giving us a direction to go with it is needed. i know nothing about call of duty, but i'd wager that soem of what you listed are

a)Self-explanatory (like l-cancelling)
B)unintended (in other words, not the target of the changes i said)
c) has some of it's uses show/explained/hinted in-game.

if they aren't, it's bad game design.

 

[Malex]

there is no need to go over tevery single use of the official techs, if they are as deep as wavedash is, but giving us a direction to go with it is needed. i know nothing about call of duty, but i'd wager that soem of what you listed are

a)Self-explanatory (like l-cancelling)
B)unintended (in other words, not the target of the changes i said)
c) has some of it's uses show/explained/hinted in-game.

if they aren't, it's bad game design.

I'm confused. What is the definition of "advanced tactic" that you are using? I think it is safe to say that if a mechanic was purposefully implemented (regardless of explanation) it shouldn't be considered an "advanced tactic". It would be just be a known game mechanic. (Like l-cancelling)
And why are you talking about wavedashing if unintended mechanics are not what you are talking about?

 

[Dracometeor]

there is no need to go over tevery single use of the official techs, if they are as deep as wavedash is, but giving us a direction to go with it is needed. i know nothing about call of duty, but i'd wager that soem of what you listed are

a)Self-explanatory (like l-cancelling)
B)unintended (in other words, not the target of the changes i said)
c) has some of it's uses show/explained/hinted in-game.

if they aren't, it's bad game design.

It's not bad game design, it's something that the game designers could not do effectively so it wasn't seen as effective or useful. Then players learned how to abuse and perfect these techniques. You can't control a gaming community to only do what you say, unless you patch it.

 

[Jaedrik]

And that video was pointless since this topic was hitting around it for a while now. Also, that person seem to know little about what they're talking about. Just baiting in arguments for the sake of arguing.

I am aware, but the video is new.
Epsilon is a competitive player, a larger part of the community than most, and he makes a lot of solid points, many of which, I admit, have been made herein before.

 

[Fabio the Great]

Do you have a favourite advanced technique? In brawl my fave technique was glide tossing.

mine is tripping

 

[Venks]

The problem with your second point is that the developers don't know how to use the AT's at a competitive level or in ideal situations since they don't play competitively.

Think of how Call of Duty is. Do they teach you how to throw effective grenades? No. Do they teach you how to take cover effectively? Do they teach you when to reload? Do they teach you when to dropshot? Jump shot? Quick scope? No. It's how games are.

Not all games. Look at newer fighting games like Skull Girls and Killer Instinct. Both of these games have very well designed tutorial/dojo modes that teach the player about advanced techniques and WHY they are useful. These games do this because they'll never draw audiences naturally like Street Fighter. So instead they do their best to be as accessible as possible to new players.

Now I'm gonna try to keep my opinion on this as brief as possible but still might be a hefty read. Basically when I talk to a lot of players who come from Melee, project M, or former Brawl now strictly PM converts, most of them seem to disagree with Sakurai's philosophy of giving everyone an equal chance of winning and being able to compete. They seem to want to keep the competitive community this small, tight niche group of only the most dedicated players, and this is the attitude a lot of other fighting game communities have.

But this CANNOT be the route we take if we want this community to grow and Smash Brothers to be recognized along other big eSports games.

Completely agreed. This is a problem for the entire fighting game genre and not just Street Fighter. When you look at the numbers they just don't perform as well. The big thing Smash Bros has going for it is that it has famous characters that people enjoy and recognize. Without Nintendo's strong IP Smash Bros would have never succeeded as a series.

Accessibility is where fighting games are going now. Street Fighter IV gets a lot of flak from its veterans due to its less strict input commands for special moves, but this version of the series has seen such a huge influx of players because of it. Then you have Marvel vs Capcom 3 where tons of fans hate X-Factor which effectively gives a giant buff to the losing player for a set period of time. However, X-Factor allows for really dazzling come backs and makes the game more enjoyable to watch. Before Capcom gave up on supporting Marvel vs Capcom 3 it easily had much higher viewship than Street Fighter.

If we're going to grow then we need to embrace accessibility.

2- The tech must not only be explained, it must be also shown effectively. Traditional fighters make this mistake almost always. It's no great use to most casuals just to know how to wavedash, officially or not. The "when" is the most important thing, and while one could look at the webz... it's bad game design to give us something and say nothing about how to use it.

having CPU using it, even if not to it's full potential, is the way to go. Leave the "use it to it's maximum potential" to the players, but the CPU must shed a light at how to use the techs.

Agreed. I really like in Mario Kart 8 how now and then CPUs will take short cuts you may not of noticed. It's a great way to teach players how to improve their track times without using a lengthy tutorial.

I'm not against giving both parties an equal chance to win, I am against against making a game cater to the person who is losing in a non-Lucario-aura like way, if it is compedtive, people should be aiming for a win. Why undermind someone who is winning by giving the losing player a pat on the back to catch up?

Street Fighter has Ultras and Marvel vs Capcom has X-Factor. It helps bridge the skill gap between players and gives weaker players a better chance to win. This increases the player base and thus makes larger tournaments, bigger prize pools, and more sponsorships.

 

[Malle]

L-Cancel and Wavedashing is in my opinion just garbage that doesn't need to be there.
Basically, this is what players want Smash to be (using an example that is overexaggerating it for fun)

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

L-Cancel and Wavedashing is in my opinion just garbage that doesn't need to be there.
Basically, this is what players want Smash to be (using an example that is overexaggerating it for fun)

Ah yes, because the point of the 20XX meme is that it WASN'T meant to be a post-apocalyptic future that we all hope the game never comes to. I get that you're overexaggerating on purpose but come on, man.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

L-Cancel and Wavedashing is in my opinion just garbage that doesn't need to be there.
Basically, this is what players want Smash to be (using an example that is overexaggerating it for fun)

The disgusting thing is, there are probably people on this site who look at that and think it's absolutely perfect and every Smash game should play like that. You know, like EVERY OTHER FIGHTING GAME EVER.

Oh wait, it has platforms instead of HP bars.

Totally different.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I doubt there is one person on this site that wants the game to play like that, although it was pretty hype to watch

Additionally, it's not like any fighting game I've ever seen, let alone all of them. Closest thing I can think of is... Blazblue, maybe? Which is nothing like this really, just similar in its pace, hyper-offensive gameplay, and huge combos.

 

[Venks]

I've seen so many times the top players are all saying they don't need L-cancelling or Wave-dashing. They just want to be mobile and have aerial approaches that they don't have to commit the whole farm to.

It's the Melee fan-boys that demand l-cancelling and wave dashing.

 

[pizzapie7]

The disgusting thing is, there are probably people on this site who look at that and think it's absolutely perfect and every Smash game should play like that. You know, like EVERY OTHER FIGHTING GAME EVER.

Oh wait, it has platforms instead of HP bars.

Totally different.

That looks absolutely nothing like any fighting game I've ever seen. That's not disgusting, that's awesome as hell. Imagine if someone accomplished that for real, or something anywhere near that caliber. The amount of control they'd need to have over their character is insane. That would be hype as ****.

Why are you concerned of Smash becoming like or being perceived as a "fighting game" when it's barely even a fighting game to begin with? It's almost an entirely different genre. It is totally different, regardless of how awesome it looks or is.

And you are posting on what is probably the foremost site for competitive Smash on the internet. I don't know why you wouldn't expect it to have a competitive playerbase or a playerbase that would find that fun and exciting. Maybe this place isn't for you?

 

[κomıc]

Personally: Passable.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

0_o...

Damn...is no game good on its own merits?

Well no, if you interpret it in such a vague manner.

 

[JFM2796]

L-Cancel and Wavedashing is in my opinion just garbage that doesn't need to be there.
Basically, this is what players want Smash to be (using an example that is overexaggerating it for fun)

Although that was fun to watch, no one would want a game like that because there are no options at all for the defending player.

Most people just want a game where they can do some cool combos after building some momentum. L-Cancelling and Wavedashing a great tools for helping with that.

 

[DontHate-]

L-Cancel and Wavedashing is in my opinion just garbage that doesn't need to be there.
Basically, this is what players want Smash to be (using an example that is overexaggerating it for fun)

You do realize that we do have that option, right? I present to you PROJECT M: TURBO MODE. It is nearly the exact same thing you posted and is also the exact same thing that is NOT played competitively (or even taken seriously for that matter).

[/quote]

Clearly, seeing as we have the option to play like this by simply turning turbo mode [ON] in project M and we choose NOT TO play like this competitively, then this is not what players want even if you are exaggerating. We want balance, competitiveness, fun to play, and fun to watch. The above if fun as hell to play, fun as hell to watch, but it's far from balanced.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I see pèople wanting a game that has no tech skill ceiling at all, and they think that no matter how much tech they learn, someone will crush them anyway.

Look at Dark. Melee frame perfect Fox. Tech skill god.
He aint a smart player. Mango would still 3 or 4 stock him because Mango is a much smarter player.

In smash, skill goes like this.

Casual: Bad player

New Competitive Player: Bad, but learning tech

Intermediate: Mastered tech, but still a dumb player. Most AiB players are here. Mastered ability to abuse wifi.

Pro: Fairly smart and STRATEGIC PLAYER, able to use his tech skill to force opponents into bad situations, where they can cover the appropriate options and outsmart them and win. Few AiB players are here, tons of netplayers in this category.

Top Player: Everything a pro can do, but better.

Demi God: Has all of the top player stuff, but even better: Isai-Moyashi-Kikoushi in 64.
Mango-PPMD-Armada-Mew2King-Hungrybox in Melee.
Otori-Nairo-ZeRo-M2K-Nietono-9B in Brawl,
M2K-Atmada-Professor Pro-Wizzrobe in PM.

God: Well if you´re religious XD

If you´ve mastered tech but are getting bopped, you´re a dumb player or an intermediate.

 

[DontHate-]

I see pèople wanting a game that has no tech skill ceiling at all, and they think that no matter how much tech they learn, someone will crush them anyway.

Look at Dark. Melee frame perfect Fox. Tech skill god.
He aint a smart player. Mango would still 3 or 4 stock him because Mango is a much smarter player.

In smash, skill goes like this.

Casual: Bad player

New Competitive Player: Bad, but learning tech

Intermediate: Mastered tech, but still a dumb player. Most AiB players are here. Mastered ability to abuse wifi.

Pro: Fairly smart and STRATEGIC PLAYER, able to use his tech skill to force opponents into bad situations, where they can cover the appropriate options and outsmart them and win. Few AiB players are here, tons of netplayers in this category.

Top Player: Everything a pro can do, but better.

Demi God: Has all of the top player stuff, but even better: Isai-Moyashi-Kikoushi in 64.
Mango-PPMD-Armada-Mew2King-Hungrybox in Melee.
Otori-Nairo-ZeRo-M2K-Nietono-9B in Brawl,
M2K-Atmada-Professor Pro-Wizzrobe in PM.

God: Well if you´re religious XD

If you´ve mastered tech but are getting bopped, you´re a dumb player or an intermediate.

hmmm.. I kinda like this.. Although, what happens if you're smart but not able to perform what you want to do? For example, if I know the correct option is to wave-dash back but can not perform the tech so I get bodied? I guess this player would still fit somewhere in intermediate.

Either way, it's interesting to note that people tend to master tech before understanding the fundamental strategies in the game. I noticed that this is especially true for people who begin with a main who is very tech heavy. This is probably because in order to obtain more options, you need the tech required to have those options available.

Once you hit "pro level" it becomes an entirely new game. I remember finally mastering tech and understanding the fundamentals of SF and finally began playing people of that level. There was a ranking system online that ranked you according to your skill (A, B,C,D etc. with A being the best). When I went from B to A (or C to B I don't remember correctly) the difference between intermediate level play and high level play was night and day. The game became crazy addictive and 10x more fun than I'd ever imagine. I feel the same is true for SSBM.

 

[victinivcreate1]

hmmm.. I kinda like this.. Although, what happens if you're smart but not able to perform what you want to do? For example, if I know the correct option is to wave-dash back but can not perform the tech so I get bodied? I guess this player would still fit somewhere in intermediate.

Either way, it's interesting to note that people tend to master tech before understanding the fundamental strategies in the game. I noticed that this is especially true for people who begin with a main who is very tech heavy. This is probably because in order to obtain more options, you need the tech required to have those options available.

Once you hit "pro level" it becomes an entirely new game. I remember finally mastering tech and understanding the fundamentals of SF and finally began playing people of that level. There was a ranking system online that ranked you according to your skill (A, B,C,D etc. with A being the best). When I went from B to A (or C to B I don't remember correctly) the difference between intermediate level play and high level play was night and day. The game became crazy addictive and 10x more fun than I'd ever imagine. I feel the same is true for SSBM.

If you´re smart but can´t do tech, I´d say thats even worse. At least with technical players you can try to confuse your opponent by doing tons of tech fake outs. A smart player who cant do tech can only think of the correct option, but never actually implement it.

 

[Venks]

If you´re smart but can´t do tech, I´d say thats even worse. At least with technical players you can try to confuse your opponent by doing tons of tech fake outs. A smart player who cant do tech can only think of the correct option, but never actually implement it.

http://youtu.be/chl1JasCGEU?t=56m40s
Borp is pretty infamous for being pretty avearge-above average for being a tech-challenged player with good reads.

 

[Senario]

0_o...

Damn...is no game good on its own merits?

Well that is your opinion. Even the most competitive of games have tricks to them that in other communities people are totally fine with. It seems smash is the only one where this isn't the case.

Instant air dash, barrier blocking while in the air, special cancelling from blazblue aren't specifically in the manual. Marvel wavedashing and bold cancel into ground moves aren't in the manuals and so on. The great thing about fighting games is that these things can be found out and mastered by dedicated players. Judging quality by "on its own merits" seems to me like a roundabout way of you saying if it isn't in the manual it doesn't count. Mario kart 8 sports bikes have inside drifting and they are put there on purpose much like L cancelling was. They aren't stated in the manual either.

There will always be optimal ways to play a game esp in any setting that is slightly competitive. All games regardless have things that work really well and aren't in the manual because games unlike books are open ended allowing the player to find and play in a way they like best. Whether it be optimally to win as much as possible or less than optimal because they like it better.

 

[victinivcreate1]

http://youtu.be/chl1JasCGEU?t=56m40s
Borp is pretty infamous for being pretty avearge-above average for being a tech-challenged player with good reads.

Borp has tech skill. I'm talking about players who can't even wavedash 2 out of 3 times.