Social The Adorable Assistant of ACNL: Isabelle Discussion Thread

[~The Koopa King~]

anyone afraid that isabelle players could get banned since spamming in excessive amounts warrants being kicked/suspended for unsportsman like behavior?

 

[DJDave189]

Isabelle really is a fun character to play as and imo she's even more fun to use than Villager, one of the things I like to do with Isabelle is when the opponent tries to recover back on stage I'm like don't worry I'll save you in which I then use my fishing rod to grab them and then proceed to throw them even further away.

 

[Folax]

anyone afraid that isabelle players could get banned since spamming in excessive amounts warrants being kicked/suspended for unsportsman like behavior?

Not at all, cause that's her whole character. Plus, if Bayo didn't get banned back in ssb4, there's no way they'd ban our little pupper.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

true just saying that as a cautionary thing

 

[Reila]

Between the three fighters I am playing (Poké Trainer, Inklings, Isaberu), she is definitely the trickiest to use well. The mind games are real when playing Isabelle, and despite her good recovery options, she is so light you have to be careful not to die too early.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

someone argued with me on discord that isabelle isn't really a trap character or zoner and should be played more aggressively than i thought

 

[Reila]

I play her like a grappler of sorts. A long-range grappler. Eh, it is the closest I will have to one who isn't named Incineroar...

 

[ZeroJanitor]

i play isabelle like a desperate schlub trying to survive a zombie attack

 

[FunAtParties]

Just wanna say I'm enjoying most of the newcomers so far, but Isabelle is defintely my favorite atm. Her gyroid and fishing rod are a lot of fun.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I'll be honest: making people rage with Isabelle, especially the fishing rod, may be the funniest part. Especially considering how her cute demeanor makes her fortuitously trollish.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

https://nintendoeverything.com/masahiro-sakurai-super-smash-bros-ultimate-interview/2/

Isabelle is confirmed to not be an echo fighter, says so right here.

Next, let’s talk some about Isabelle.


Sakurai: Isabelle may feel similar to Villager, but she’s a separate character; I designed her with that in mind. She isn’t an echo fighter – echo fighters’ general build must be similar to the character they’re echoing, so with that in mind, Isabelle and Villager are pretty different. I wanted her to still feel like an Animal Crossing character, though, so her movement and things like “Pocket” are similar. I added the fishing rod among other elements as gimmicks that compensate for things that would make her feel like Villager. Other than that, she’s just cute. (laughs)

 

[~The Koopa King~]

man this place is dead...

 

[Reila]

It was pretty clear she was not an echo :x

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Happy New Year to you all, Isabelle protectors! Here's to hoping she doesn't get nerfed badly over time.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

i think isabelle has kinda flown over the radar not to the extent where she's basically another duck hunt type character but to the point where discussion about her is almost non-existent(aside from the memes)

now I'm not saying she's an underused character but more like she's just a character that nobody really talks about and feels there's not much to her aside from being a variation on the villager

 

[Fatmanonice]

Because of the mechanics of this game, I think it will be really hard for her and Villager to be good without buffs outside of doubles. I'm already missing Smash 4 Villager especially now that Corrin, Bayonetta, and Cloud were all nerfed.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

i guess Isabelle really ran out of steam.....not much left to say huh?

 

[Krysco]

I can provide a topic to discuss although it's not the most positive one. I feel Isabelle needs buffs. I see tier lists from top players and see Isabelle in the lower end and I'm not even surprised.

She has a lot of the same kit as Villager and what she has different is often worse. Villager's jab got a finisher so Isabelle's is strictly worse now. Utilt is better since it covers both sides of her and can combo (admittedly I haven't used Villager so I don't know if his utilt kills or something to make up for it). Dash attack...maybe I'm just misremembering but in Sm4sh, I swear that if Villager dash attacked and the pot bounced before breaking, it still had a hitbox. Regardless of whether it did or not, Isabelle's doesn't so the random bounce is pointless. Uair and dair being more consistent is a sidegrade for uair and an upgrade for dair. Three turnip dair always spikes so Isabelle always has one but two turnip uair is weaker than the three turnip variant. Fsmash lacks the edgeguarding uses Villager's has although it is surprisingly disjointed. Haven't used much of dsmash admittedly. Both usmashes are pretty bad since they aren't too powerful and don't cover directly above the character.

The more substantial changes Isabelle has from Villager is her Fishing Rod and her Lloid Trap. The Fishing Rod I find is a decent sidegrade to Villager's Lloid Rocket. They can both be used for recovery but Isabelle's is more practical. Isabelle's is also better for edgeguarding and overall, having a long range grab is nice for those that don't respect it as an option. For those that do however, it has very easy counterplay without much mixup potential like Villager's.

The Lloid Trap is the main move I feel needs buffs. It takes almost a full second to set up, it can whiff if a character barely touches the trap and gets off in time (I've seen this a lot with an opponent dash dancing around it), it can be destroyed by attacks and if it's destroyed while Isabelle is nearby, she takes extra damage from the explosion and it has a rather short timer before it disappears. Villager's in comparison takes more setup overall but the reward is much greater and the entirety of the move lasts longer (the sprout and tree don't share a timer to my understanding). The tree does massive damage and knockback upon growing, Villager gets access to the axe as a powerful, close range option both on the ground and in the air for a bit and of course the tree can be cut, namely for edgeguarding purposes. Oh and the tree can soak up projectiles for the Villager (useful if you already have something pocketed). Lloid Trap doesn't kill too particularly early though you can combo off of it by following and uairing and Isabelle can detonate it whenever she wants so she gets to control an entire vertical space. Doesn't work properly on slants though. It'll go perpendicular to the slant but the knockback still behaves as if the Lloid is going straight up so characters just fall out of the move. And to compare it to another move, Snake's C4 has a much larger timer before it expires and when it does, it detonates rather than just disappearing. Snake also has longer ranged projectiles in his grenades to force approaches better than Isabelle. Of course the C4 doesn't cover as much space as the Lloid Trap but it still seems to synergize with him better.

Since Isabelle doesn't do too well approaching, my general strategy is to force approaches with fair and bair and then either try to get them offstage, just get them away to force them to approach again or attempt to combo. If I get them away and sometimes if I get them offstage, I'll set up the Lloid Trap and while it can cover some options on the ledge nicely, if the opponent is on stage, they don't have to respect the Lloid Trap at all. You can abandon the trap and try to force an approach but then it's a non-issue since it's behind you. You can just sit behind it but then the opponent can just wait for the timer to expire or you can detonate it prematurely but again, it takes a while to set one up so you're leaving yourself more open. I've had a number of matches where my buddy, even as a character without projectiles like Marth refuses to approach until the Trap expires and I refuse to approach because Isabelle is better suited to dissuading approaches than going in herself.

Maybe I'm missing something about her that someone could enlighten me on but my current stance is that Isabelle is fun but undertuned and needs buffs, namely in her down special.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

yeah Isabelle's not too good when she has to try and play without her traps but those can easily be bypassed so it's hard to succeed with isabelle in the long run because nobody's just gonna run straight into the mine and often times like ya said the mine setup takes too long for what it's worth

Isabelle's a trap/zoning character so it's awkward to play as her when you have to deal with being heavily pressured all the time and can't really set anything up

 

[Reila]

Man, I played against Villager and I couldn't do much at all. So many zoning and pressure, I almost thought I was playing against the Belmonts for a moment. The match was actually relatively close but it wasn't a fun one haha. Any tips for this match up?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Isabelle's a trap/zoning character so it's awkward to play as her when you have to deal with being heavily pressured all the time and can't really set anything up

This. It doesn't exactly help that like 3/4's of the metagame right now is 4 Marths and 2 Pikachus either.

 

[Reila]

I was playing around with screenshots to grab a picture for a video, and this one happened. I thought it was funny if a little weird.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Isabelle's just in an awkward spot....Zoner/keep away characters are never that popular offline or online at best You'll get people who accuse you of being a mindless spammer

regardless of if you win or lose Isabelle's game-plan isn't entertaining for spectators or the commentators to discuss

having to outlast and outplay people who can pressure you and prevent you from setting up shop is bad enough but to have the extra downside that if you start winning there's gonna be some major backlash simply due to how Isabelle operates as a character

she doesn't really have the luxury of just being able to bully the opponent at close range so she has to stay further away from them to be in her sweet spot and even then staying there is the most difficult part

all it takes is someone setting off your Lloid trap to get rid of that danger or it's timer expiring and suddenly you are left wide open

trap set-up takes a while so you can't set A Lloid up as soon as it's taken out or it expires because that downtime leaves you...say it with me wide open for a big attack


so what exactly is Isabelle Suppose to do when the opponent just keeps destroying her traps and not giving her room to zone them out?

that's the major question here and why the doggo secretary is in a bad spot in the game

 

[Reila]

Game has been out for a month. It is too early to tell who really is in a bad spot.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

while that may be true there's just not a lot to really say about Isabelle she's a trap character and when those traps are bypassed she's not that good

put a lot of pressure on her and she won't have much time to set up The Lloid

 

[Reila]

Well, I don't disagree. She doesn't have a lot of tools, and the tools she has... Aren't that effective against quite a few fighters. Don't you just love swordies popping the lloyd trap with their five kilometers long swords?a But still, techs can be found to make her a little better. Or Nintendo could actually buff Isabelle.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

had someone telling me villager's superior to isabelle due to His Own Specials being better than hers(Like The Lloid Rocket being better than The Lloid Trap)

 

[Reila]

But they do very different things even if they have similarities in their movesets, I don't think it is fair to compare them. I do think Villager is better, though. The tree isn't as situational and easily counter-able as the lloid, and as cute as Isabelle's neutral air is, I wish it worked more like Villager's.

 

[Mark The Page]

Hi there. Longtime Villager main popping in to correct a bunch of things. Villager has a very high skill ceiling based on theoretical/tactical knowledge. I don't think many other people in this thread have had much success using him, and (no offense) it shows.

She has a lot of the same kit as Villager and what she has different is often worse. Villager's jab got a finisher so Isabelle's is strictly worse now. Utilt is better since it covers both sides of her and can combo (admittedly I haven't used Villager so I don't know if his utilt kills or something to make up for it). Dash attack...maybe I'm just misremembering but in Sm4sh, I swear that if Villager dash attacked and the pot bounced before breaking, it still had a hitbox. Regardless of whether it did or not, Isabelle's doesn't so the random bounce is pointless. Uair and dair being more consistent is a sidegrade for uair and an upgrade for dair. Three turnip dair always spikes so Isabelle always has one but two turnip uair is weaker than the three turnip variant. Fsmash lacks the edgeguarding uses Villager's has although it is surprisingly disjointed. Haven't used much of dsmash admittedly. Both usmashes are pretty bad since they aren't too powerful and don't cover directly above the character.

First off, Villager's jab finisher is a severe nerf, not a buff. It was among Smash 4's best combo setups. Isabelle's is harder to use, but can be much more rewarding. His u-tilt is lethal, but the range has been butchered and it has much more lag than Isabelle's, which combos much better. They have the same dash attack, except Isabelle can act out of it 3 frames sooner for no reason. Isabelle's down smash is a HUGE upgrade over Villager's because it's the only option that covers both sides on the ground, and instantly, and it even launches at a low angle.

The up-smash debate is tricky. He's got a wider hitbox and combos, but she can hit directly in front of her, making it a good out-of-shield option. Hers is also much stronger.

The more substantial changes Isabelle has from Villager is her Fishing Rod and her Lloid Trap. The Fishing Rod I find is a decent sidegrade to Villager's Lloid Rocket. They can both be used for recovery but Isabelle's is more practical. Isabelle's is also better for edgeguarding and overall, having a long range grab is nice for those that don't respect it as an option. For those that do however, it has very easy counterplay without much mixup potential like Villager's.

The Lloid Rocket is the best move in Smash. End of discussion.

I think the Fishing Rod is overrated, but maybe it just takes practice. Villager's edgeguarding options are more consistent. That said, it's a good mixup for opponents who stay grounded, especially if you catch them as they're trying to destroy a trap. The damage output is crazy.

As for the big paragraph comparing down-Bs... it's really misguided. Villager's tree is bad. Really bad against people who know what they're doing. It's a clutch gimmick that's been noticeably nerfed in Ultimate--the axe is no good for anything but punishing, and can no longer be confirmed through jab 1. Active trees also disadvantage Villager by blocking his gyroids and slingshots.

Isabelle's built to poke at opponents from behind her trap. You're at the advantage as you chip away at their shield and their health. You can also poke beyond the trap to lure them to chase you into it. Or you can using the fishing rod's down throw into the trap, and just like that you've got a 40+ damage combo in three moves (chase them up with some turnips--also, you must be mistaken, because I've never been damaged by my own gyroid's explosion).

If you're having trouble capitalizing on that ideal situation, maybe it's because you aren't using the slingshot right. Short hop and then time your fast-fall so the pellet shoots just before you hit the ground. And BE PATIENT! Villager and Isabelle both benefit from doing NOTHING--literally just standing there--not committing to some random attack. Watch what your opponent is doing, and react accordingly. With a gyroid out, you already have an active hitbox they need to navigate around. Strike when you've got em in a corner.

Compared to Villager, Isabelle's melee options are noticeably better, in part because her trap restricts the opponent's movement. Her n-air gets more range, her jab is more threatening, and her smashes hit faster and harder. She can combo better, and she deals WAAAAY more damage.

As I've said in Villager discussions, nearly every last one of his moves has been nerfed in at least one way. He's been crippled. Most of his combos are gone and his damage output is downright miserable. It's very telling that Isabelle has lost the Lloid Rocket yet still manages to combo and damage better. I really am convinced that he was intentionally made worse so that the new character would take the spotlight--just look at his nerfed u-tilt while Isabelle's is superior in every way.

The main difference between their playstyles is that Villager's gyroid gives him approach options, while Isabelle's is for camping although she still handles close-range better than him.

If Isabelle has lost popularity, I'd say it's because she attracts bad players and requires patience to wield properly.

 

[Krysco]

Hi there. Longtime Villager main popping in to correct a bunch of things. Villager has a very high skill ceiling based on theoretical/tactical knowledge. I don't think many other people in this thread have had much success using him, and (no offense) it shows.



First off, Villager's jab finisher is a severe nerf, not a buff. It was among Smash 4's best combo setups. Isabelle's is harder to use, but can be much more rewarding. His u-tilt is lethal, but the range has been butchered and it has much more lag than Isabelle's, which combos much better. They have the same dash attack, except Isabelle can act out of it 3 frames sooner for no reason. Isabelle's down smash is a HUGE upgrade over Villager's because it's the only option that covers both sides on the ground, and instantly, and it even launches at a low angle.

The up-smash debate is tricky. He's got a wider hitbox and combos, but she can hit directly in front of her, making it a good out-of-shield option. Hers is also much stronger.


The Lloid Rocket is the best move in Smash. End of discussion.

I think the Fishing Rod is overrated, but maybe it just takes practice. Villager's edgeguarding options are more consistent. That said, it's a good mixup for opponents who stay grounded, especially if you catch them as they're trying to destroy a trap. The damage output is crazy.

As for the big paragraph comparing down-Bs... it's really misguided. Villager's tree is bad. Really bad against people who know what they're doing. It's a clutch gimmick that's been noticeably nerfed in Ultimate--the axe is no good for anything but punishing, and can no longer be confirmed through jab 1. Active trees also disadvantage Villager by blocking his gyroids and slingshots.

Isabelle's built to poke at opponents from behind her trap. You're at the advantage as you chip away at their shield and their health. You can also poke beyond the trap to lure them to chase you into it. Or you can using the fishing rod's down throw into the trap, and just like that you've got a 40+ damage combo in three moves (chase them up with some turnips--also, you must be mistaken, because I've never been damaged by my own gyroid's explosion).

If you're having trouble capitalizing on that ideal situation, maybe it's because you aren't using the slingshot right. Short hop and then time your fast-fall so the pellet shoots just before you hit the ground. And BE PATIENT! Villager and Isabelle both benefit from doing NOTHING--literally just standing there--not committing to some random attack. Watch what your opponent is doing, and react accordingly. With a gyroid out, you already have an active hitbox they need to navigate around. Strike when you've got em in a corner.

Compared to Villager, Isabelle's melee options are noticeably better, in part because her trap restricts the opponent's movement. Her n-air gets more range, her jab is more threatening, and her smashes hit faster and harder. She can combo better, and she deals WAAAAY more damage.

As I've said in Villager discussions, nearly every last one of his moves has been nerfed in at least one way. He's been crippled. Most of his combos are gone and his damage output is downright miserable. It's very telling that Isabelle has lost the Lloid Rocket yet still manages to combo and damage better. I really am convinced that he was intentionally made worse so that the new character would take the spotlight--just look at his nerfed u-tilt while Isabelle's is superior in every way.

The main difference between their playstyles is that Villager's gyroid gives him approach options, while Isabelle's is for camping although she still handles close-range better than him.

If Isabelle has lost popularity, I'd say it's because she attracts bad players and requires patience to wield properly.

Jab's in general were changed going into Ultimate so that they only combo into themselves. Villager at least has a finisher to send opponents away while Isabelle's hardly sends them anywhere. It feels like a very similar jab to that of Samus, a jab intentionally made with a flaw since both characters are focused to some degree around keeping the opponent out with projectiles.

I outright admitted to not using Villager so I could only theorycraft at best the differences between usmash, utilt and dsmash. I don't use either smash attack much with Isabelle given their limited range and longer startup than some of her other options. In particular with Isabelle's usmash, I think of it as a poor man's Palutena usmash. Hits infront and above that but doesn't cover the character like most other usmashes do. Dash attack comparison was to Sm4sh Vilager's but again, I could be misremembering. It just seems odd for the pot to sometimes bounce if the bounce doesn't actually do anything.

I can admit that Lloid Rocket is really good and the Fishing Rod does have a lot of counterplay to it but it has its positives over Lloid Rocket. It's a tether recovery, can be held below the ledge to catch low recoveries with the reel in and it can call out long range options like random dash dancing or opponents trying to set stuff up or even landings better than Lloid Rocket since the latter takes a bit before it starts moving and it moves kinda slow. I do think Lloid Rocket is better but I don't feel Fishing Rod is a terrible move to replace it.

The tree with one cut in at the edge demands respect for anyone recovering especially with the nerfed air dodge. The Lloid Trap on the other hand only really demands respect for ledge trapping in particular since it can be used to cover ledge options, in particular roll since I would imagine ledge attack would beat it since it's invincible while the hitbox is out for at least a frame (although you could then punish the get up attack afterwards). Again, I don't use Villager but from my recollection of Sm4sh the axe was more powerful than any of his aerials save for maybe 3 turnip uair or dair which the axe doesn't cover the same range anyways and plus those numbers are from rng. The tree also blocks enemy projectiles save for piercing ones like R.O.B. lasers. Sure there's pocket but you can't pocket a projectile if you already have one in your pocket.

Villager can poke in the exact same manner you describe with his fair and bair so that's not unique to Isabelle. The Lloid Trap has a timer so even if your opponent lacks a projectile, they can just wait out its timer. You can approach them during that time but Isabelle has poor approaching tools anyways and as I said, the Lloid Trap takes roughly a full second to set up again so once the timer is done, the opponent can just rush you. When the Lloid Trap is hit it explodes in the ground and I have had that explosion hit Isabelle. I treat Isabelle's fair and bair like shorter ranged versions of Melee Falco's Blaster so I'm already aware of fast falling them and timing the fast fall differently to mix up the timing. Isabelle and Villager benefit from being patient but Villager can send a slow moving projectile that he can follow towards his opponent which forces them to make a choice to try and avoid it. Isabelle doesn't have that and anytime you choose to wait, especially with a trap set, your opponent can wait too.

For context of my most common situations, I've used my Isabelle mostly against my buddy's Snake and Marth. Marth lowers his hurtbox when he dashes which makes hitting him with fair/bair more difficult and his sword easily allows him to destroy my trap. And if I choose to wait for him to approach me near or behind the trap he just waits for the timer to expire. Snake can also easily detonate the trap by cooking and timing his grenade tosses and Pocket isn't even a good option vs them since they keep their timer so you could still be in lag from pulling a grenade out of pocket and have it blow up in your face. Those may just be some particular bad mus for Isabelle but it's highlighted some of her issues to me.

You'd definitely be more qualified to talk about Villager and his unique strengths and weaknesses compared to me but I feel I've played Isabelle enough to at least understand her flaws, particularly with her down special.

 

[Mark The Page]

Krysco
Isabelle's lack of a finisher is what makes hers better, because you get to follow up with an actual attack. Isabelle's jab serves the same purpose as Smash 4 Villager's. For example, following up the jab with a pocketed projectile.

U-smash not hitting directly above Isabelle is a moot point when you'd almost always want her u-tilt in that position anyway.

The fishing rod has no comparison to the Lloid Rocket aside from using the same command. I wouldn't use it to catch dash dancers because they're in a position to jump over it and punish you, and you've already got an optimal response in the slingshot.

Sending a tree off the ledge is only good in theory. In practice I'll never have enough time to set that up, and I'd prefer to be using gyroids, dash attacks, bowling balls, slingshots and n-airs anyway. It's such a niche option.

Again, the axe is too slow now to be a reliable attack, and active trees are a SERIOUS deteriment for blocking Villager's projectiles, and therefore leaving him unable to approach. Gyroids already block (and often continue through) opposing projectiles--and we've got the Pocket anyway.

Isabelle's slingshot is much better for camping because her trap is a one-and-done way to keep the opponent back, and she's better prepared to repel quickly if they do get in close.

It really doesn't sound like you're as good at accurately spamming slingshots as you could be. I've found Snake to be an easy matchup, even without pocketing his grenades. If he holds them, he's super vulnerable to slingshots. Track the arcs of his grenades and weave through them with those shots. His best options are all on the ground, where your trap is better than his.

For MUs like Marth, I use a lot of instant dash attacks. It's fast and it's got excellent reach, and even if it misses it often moves you out of the opponent's counterattack. Plus it hits grounded opponents poking at your traps. It'll also help to imagine the Animal Crossing fighters like an unmoving fortress when it comes to tilt attacks, because they do get solid disjointed range and active frames against approaching foes. When you knock Marth away, follow up if he goes offstage, and/or detonate any stale gyroids and quickly plant down a new one. Same concept as how landing a fully charged Sun Salutation "rewards" Wii Fit Trainer by letting her charge a new one. Every time your trap setup yields a successful hit, you can establish it anew. Know when to push and when to keep hunkering down.

 

[Reila]

Hi there. Longtime Villager main popping in to correct a bunch of things. Villager has a very high skill ceiling based on theoretical/tactical knowledge. I don't think many other people in this thread have had much success using him, and (no offense) it shows.



First off, Villager's jab finisher is a severe nerf, not a buff. It was among Smash 4's best combo setups. Isabelle's is harder to use, but can be much more rewarding. His u-tilt is lethal, but the range has been butchered and it has much more lag than Isabelle's, which combos much better. They have the same dash attack, except Isabelle can act out of it 3 frames sooner for no reason. Isabelle's down smash is a HUGE upgrade over Villager's because it's the only option that covers both sides on the ground, and instantly, and it even launches at a low angle.

The up-smash debate is tricky. He's got a wider hitbox and combos, but she can hit directly in front of her, making it a good out-of-shield option. Hers is also much stronger.


The Lloid Rocket is the best move in Smash. End of discussion.

I think the Fishing Rod is overrated, but maybe it just takes practice. Villager's edgeguarding options are more consistent. That said, it's a good mixup for opponents who stay grounded, especially if you catch them as they're trying to destroy a trap. The damage output is crazy.

As for the big paragraph comparing down-Bs... it's really misguided. Villager's tree is bad. Really bad against people who know what they're doing. It's a clutch gimmick that's been noticeably nerfed in Ultimate--the axe is no good for anything but punishing, and can no longer be confirmed through jab 1. Active trees also disadvantage Villager by blocking his gyroids and slingshots.

Isabelle's built to poke at opponents from behind her trap. You're at the advantage as you chip away at their shield and their health. You can also poke beyond the trap to lure them to chase you into it. Or you can using the fishing rod's down throw into the trap, and just like that you've got a 40+ damage combo in three moves (chase them up with some turnips--also, you must be mistaken, because I've never been damaged by my own gyroid's explosion).

If you're having trouble capitalizing on that ideal situation, maybe it's because you aren't using the slingshot right. Short hop and then time your fast-fall so the pellet shoots just before you hit the ground. And BE PATIENT! Villager and Isabelle both benefit from doing NOTHING--literally just standing there--not committing to some random attack. Watch what your opponent is doing, and react accordingly. With a gyroid out, you already have an active hitbox they need to navigate around. Strike when you've got em in a corner.

Compared to Villager, Isabelle's melee options are noticeably better, in part because her trap restricts the opponent's movement. Her n-air gets more range, her jab is more threatening, and her smashes hit faster and harder. She can combo better, and she deals WAAAAY more damage.

As I've said in Villager discussions, nearly every last one of his moves has been nerfed in at least one way. He's been crippled. Most of his combos are gone and his damage output is downright miserable. It's very telling that Isabelle has lost the Lloid Rocket yet still manages to combo and damage better. I really am convinced that he was intentionally made worse so that the new character would take the spotlight--just look at his nerfed u-tilt while Isabelle's is superior in every way.

The main difference between their playstyles is that Villager's gyroid gives him approach options, while Isabelle's is for camping although she still handles close-range better than him.

If Isabelle has lost popularity, I'd say it's because she attracts bad players and requires patience to wield properly.

Great post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Edit: Do you have any Isabelle gameplay videos? Of yourself? Would love to watch.

 

[Mark The Page]

Great post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Edit: Do you have any Isabelle gameplay videos? Of yourself? Would love to watch.

Alas, I don't. You'll just have to imagine me setting up traps and then saying "Ah, screw it" to go ram into the opponent with about 40 n-airs.

 

[Krysco]

Krysco
Isabelle's lack of a finisher is what makes hers better, because you get to follow up with an actual attack. Isabelle's jab serves the same purpose as Smash 4 Villager's. For example, following up the jab with a pocketed projectile.

U-smash not hitting directly above Isabelle is a moot point when you'd almost always want her u-tilt in that position anyway.

The fishing rod has no comparison to the Lloid Rocket aside from using the same command. I wouldn't use it to catch dash dancers because they're in a position to jump over it and punish you, and you've already got an optimal response in the slingshot.

Sending a tree off the ledge is only good in theory. In practice I'll never have enough time to set that up, and I'd prefer to be using gyroids, dash attacks, bowling balls, slingshots and n-airs anyway. It's such a niche option.

Again, the axe is too slow now to be a reliable attack, and active trees are a SERIOUS deteriment for blocking Villager's projectiles, and therefore leaving him unable to approach. Gyroids already block (and often continue through) opposing projectiles--and we've got the Pocket anyway.

Isabelle's slingshot is much better for camping because her trap is a one-and-done way to keep the opponent back, and she's better prepared to repel quickly if they do get in close.

It really doesn't sound like you're as good at accurately spamming slingshots as you could be. I've found Snake to be an easy matchup, even without pocketing his grenades. If he holds them, he's super vulnerable to slingshots. Track the arcs of his grenades and weave through them with those shots. His best options are all on the ground, where your trap is better than his.

For MUs like Marth, I use a lot of instant dash attacks. It's fast and it's got excellent reach, and even if it misses it often moves you out of the opponent's counterattack. Plus it hits grounded opponents poking at your traps. It'll also help to imagine the Animal Crossing fighters like an unmoving fortress when it comes to tilt attacks, because they do get solid disjointed range and active frames against approaching foes. When you knock Marth away, follow up if he goes offstage, and/or detonate any stale gyroids and quickly plant down a new one. Same concept as how landing a fully charged Sun Salutation "rewards" Wii Fit Trainer by letting her charge a new one. Every time your trap setup yields a successful hit, you can establish it anew. Know when to push and when to keep hunkering down.

From what I've seen, Isabelle's jab doesn't leave her with enough of a frame advantage to do much after. Maybe at high enough percent and maybe with Pocket as you said but that's also mu dependent and requires you having something pocketed anyways. It doesn't help that you can't just press A to jab and then use tilt stick to do a tilt since the game will just input another jab. You have to crouch cancel the jab first and then do a tilt to get it reliably. I'd personally rather Villager's jab that puts them back a ways where I can continue to hamper them with slingshots or get the time to set up another trap.

Both usmashes are meh imo but then I'm also just more used to conventional usmashes like Ridley's and Sm4sh Falco's.

I agree that Fishing Rod and Lloid Rocket don't have much in common but I'd give them more than just the input. They are both long range options as well, horizontally longer than anything else either character has save for pocketed projectiles. But yes, they serve different roles even with that similarity.

I'm not a Villager player but in my head, setting the tree up by the ledge solves a lot of these issues. It's already set up for edgeguarding, it's hardly on stage to block your own projectiles (and even if you plant it closer in stage, just be aware of your own tree and fade in and out of it so you can fire projectiles past it and if you need to, you can quickly hide behind it against other projectiles). And while the axe is slow, it's also powerful unless it was nerfed hard in that department. You have a frame 3 nair that covers similar range so you could read your opponent trying to dodge that and instead hit them with the axe or you can even use it as a landing option if your opponent chooses to use something punishable. It's not super amazing or anything but I see uses for both the tree and the axe portion of the move. Will admit that I forgot that Lloid Rocket soaks up projectiles well so that does overlap with what I said about the tree and with way less set up to boot.

My issue with the slingshot in conjunction with the trap has been that if I set up the trap far enough away, my opponent can just wait outside of slingshot range until it times out and if I approach then the trap is only good as a retreat option for me. Shield is super good against Isabelle since her grab is laggy and she can't limit options as well while approaching like Villager can with Lloid Rocket. This results in times where we both just kinda play as if the trap isn't even there. The trap is definitely better if you've already hit the opponent so you can safely set it up and in a more favourable position but again, the timer, the fact that attacks can destroy it and overall being able to choose to just further pursue your opponent in this case. Hit them up? You could set up a trap or you could follow after them with your disjointed uair and projectile fair and bair. Sent them offstage? Usually the best time to set up the trap but you could also go off with your frame 3 nair and projectile fair and bair. Depends on the mu really since some characters aren't really worth going offstage for. If the trap had less endlag after planting it, I'd feel more comfortable just being able to plant it in neutral without the risk of getting smacked for it.

I don't claim to be a master of timing my slingshots, I'm simply used to the concept due to maining Falco in Melee where he has a very similar option with his Blaster. The more I use Isabelle, I'm sure I'll continue to get better and better at using her slingshot and overall her entire kit. I don't even feel slingshots are the main issue. They just don't solve the issue of Isabelle being a trap character with a stationary trap and poor means of making her opponent go into said trap. The Lloid Trap isn't as mobile as say Link's bombs or Duck Hunt's can.

As for Snake, he's really not that vulnerable on the ground with a grenade. Shielding drops them and he can pick them up and throw them very easily and even if not, they pose an issue for you to approach him too if they just sit there on the ground. Not as big of an issue for Isabelle given her slingshot but an issue nonetheless. I wouldn't exactly call Isabelle's trap better than Snake's. Snake gets access to up to two grenades that he can cook as he needs unless pressured and he has a C4 with a much more generous timer that can be used from the air and can stick to more than just the floor and even offstage, Nikita is more threatening than slingshots or the fishing rod depending on the mu. In the Isabelle Snake mu in particular, Nikita isn't too big of an issue but the grenades can very easily destroy the Lloid Trap and slingshots only knock Snake out of Cipher if it's the close hit due to the damage threshold it has.

Marth in general is just a pain given his speed and range. Dash attack sounds like an easy punish for Marth if you're not careful. I do like your point of treating Lloid Trap like a chargeable projectile though. Set up a new one once you've put the opponent in an unfavourable position so the timer of the old one doesn't expire. Again, might just be me being way too used to other trapping tools having way more generous timers like Snake's C4, Link's bombs and Duck Hunt's can. Their timer expiring is also a lot easier to notice since all 3 of those explode while the Lloid Trap just poofs quietly.

 

[Mark The Page]

Remember that your dash attack sends a projectile offstage. Edgeguarding with Isabelle, I usually do that when I get to the ledge and then put out a line. The fishing rod's only other use should be as an easy punish when the opponent thinks they were safe at long range, and you know you'll land it.

Honestly I don't use the trap all that much. I don't bother setting it up unless it's totally safe, and I freely pursue away from it. No opponent is ever going to gain advantage by waiting out a trap, because in the meantime they're getting pelted. Over time, I think you'll also get better at knocking opponents into the trap. I can do this with n-air, d-air, and the rod.

Practice dash dancing with Isabelle. Super useful for baiting out opponents and keeping you ready to react--especially with dash attacks. You're also totally free to get right up in your opponent's face, because this n-air is one of the easiest attacks in the game to land. That'll help your Marth matchups, because you make it even harder for him to keep at an advantageous distance--right when he gets past your long-range attacks, you change tactics and now he's trying to get AWAY from you. You can make it incredibly frustrating for him to stay in his Goldilocks zone.

Isabelle plays a lot like Smash 4's Villager (with one obvious major difference), and the AC duo can take a long time to master. My best advice is to understand that they're unconventional fighters, who aren't going to play like anyone else. You'll switch in an instant from camping to full aggro, from long range to point blank. Learn when to make that switch: when a combo starter connects, when the opponent gets frustrated, or when a frame trap is closing in.

An example of this: When I'm using Wii Fit Trainer, my attack accuracy is 50-60% because she does not fire warning shots. With Villager, my accuracy drops to 30%, because most of my moves aren't even intended to hit the opponent--they're to corral the opponent into a frame trap, and THEN I go ballistic.

 

[Reila]

Well, I changed my main here to Isabelle. I can't do much with Inklings or with her, but I have a lot more fun with her. There is just something off about Inklings, I think it is their aerials. They are just off. But that is a matter for the Inklings' thread.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Well, I changed my main here to Isabelle. I can't do much with Inklings or with her, but I have a lot more fun with her. There is just something off about Inklings, I think it is their aerials. They are just off. But that is a matter for the Inklings' thread.

their normals just seem really stubby and short range

 

[Reila]

their normals just seem really stubby and short range

I just can't used to them at all. Pichu has super short normals but I can land them consistently with her, yet with Inklings... Nope. Love Inklings but I will pass for now.

 

[Reila]

So yeah, still playing her. Fun fighter, but fighting swordies still wants to make to lay on the ground and cry. Love how they can poke and kill me if I am on a platform, and they are standing on the regular stage, but my up smash can't hit them. Also, go on, keep destroying my lloid rocket and denying any slingshot pressure I could have.

Haven't fought one Ike yet though, just fifty shades of Chroms and Lucinas. I wonder if his slowness make him less frustrating to play against. Then again Ike is like... Get hit once, suddenly you are at 50% ._.


Edit: Someone please make a weekly matchup thread.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Maybe I'm missing something about her that someone could enlighten me on but my current stance is that Isabelle is fun but undertuned and needs buffs, namely in her down special.

I do agree that her down special could use some more fine tuning to buff it out. It's much, much too easy for most to set it off or even outright destroy with out any punishment whatsoever, unlike with the tree that you will be forced to deal with for a while. I main the 3 Links myself, and the animal crossing duo are my heavy secondaries. Their pocket moves are always a good deterrent against certain projectiles yes, but other Isabelle players can never camp properly against any of my Links. The way I play with the Links just completely negates the viability of her Lloid trap, while the tree is still something I'm at least forced to jump over or roll around, etc. for a short while.

The Lloid Rocket is the best move in Smash. End of discussion.

As I've said in Villager discussions, nearly every last one of his moves has been nerfed in at least one way.

I do love that move!

I would say Villy's dair has been improved since it always spikes now regardless of the turnip count; and even though it does seem a tad bit slower than uair now, it's still one of the faster spikes in the game so I'll take that extra bit of start up lag for more consistency overall~
And I also love the new mechanics of pocket immensely! The way Villy keeps on to the the item pocketed for so long, it really helps in certain annoying match ups for me. For example my Links have more trouble with Krool than my Villy does, cuz his annoying crown has such a strong and high amount of priority over every other projectile in the game, just eating through most of Links projectiles and stuffs. But Villy can just easily pocket the crown and just decide to never use it again for the duration of the match, therefore crippling Krool players who over rely on it too much plus weaken their uair too~