Social The Adorable Assistant of ACNL: Isabelle Discussion Thread

[~The Koopa King~]

Eh, I feel like I'm the only person in the world who knows about instant dash attacks and uses them. I've noticed that fighters with underwhelming ground options have consistently been given far dash attacks with near-zero startup. Dash attacks have been given such a bad rap in previous games, but take them seriously in Ultimate. For many fighters, your dash attack is basically a long-reaching, self-propelling tilt.

Also, your avatar makes me very uncomfortable.

why's that?

 

[Luminario]

Eh, I feel like I'm the only person in the world who knows about instant dash attacks and uses them. I've noticed that fighters with underwhelming ground options have consistently been given far dash attacks with near-zero startup. Dash attacks have been given such a bad rap in previous games, but take them seriously in Ultimate. For many fighters, your dash attack is basically a long-reaching, self-propelling tilt.

Issy's dash attack is really not that good. Sure, it's got range, but you're moving with it and if you get blocked you're facing a heavy punish.

 

[Mark The Page]

Issy's dash attack is really not that good. Sure, it's got range, but you're moving with it and if you get blocked you're facing a heavy punish.

As a Villager/Isabelle main, I STRONGLY disagree. It has better range than any of our other attacks*, with functionally the same startup and endlag. You're only getting a "heavy punish" if you get blocked while trying to use it directly adjacent to your opponent--a situation in which you shouldn't be using that attack anyway.

And that "but you're moving with it"? Yeah, that's half the point. Attacking and moving at the same time is a huge powerplay in Smash Bros. Villager/Isabelle's dash attack grants immediate momentum, so even if your attack misses, you've just moved your character, which means you have a solid chance of avoiding a counterattack meant to strike your previous, standing location. This makes you safe and unpredictable.

There are good dash attacks and there are bad dash attacks, and there are good reasons for why your character has one or the other.


*Note that the slingshot will have trouble hitting grounded opponents, and a whiffed slingshot leaves you vulnerable for FAR longer than a whiffed instant dash attack.

 

[Luminario]

As a Villager/Isabelle main, I STRONGLY disagree. It has better range than any of our other attacks*, with functionally the same startup and endlag. You're only getting a "heavy punish" if you get blocked while trying to use it directly adjacent to your opponent--a situation in which you shouldn't be using that attack anyway.

And that "but you're moving with it"? Yeah, that's half the point. Attacking and moving at the same time is a huge powerplay in Smash Bros. Villager/Isabelle's dash attack grants immediate momentum, so even if your attack misses, you've just moved your character, which means you have a solid chance of avoiding a counterattack meant to strike your previous, standing location. This makes you safe and unpredictable.

There are good dash attacks and there are bad dash attacks, and there are good reasons for why your character has one or the other.


*Note that the slingshot will have trouble hitting grounded opponents, and a whiffed slingshot leaves you vulnerable for FAR longer than a whiffed instant dash attack.

I suppose you're right now that I think about it, though I wouldn't really say it's enough of a crutch to outweigh her other faults. When would you suggest using it then?

 

[ZeroJanitor]

don't know why people consider dash attack a bad tool. its not one of the best or anything but it definitely has some utility, it covers options that slingshot just doesnt and it can be converted off of sometimes too.

 

[Mark The Page]

don't know why people consider dash attack a bad tool. its not one of the best or anything but it definitely has some utility, it covers options that slingshot just doesnt and it can be converted off of sometimes too.

Dash attack to slingshot isn't a true combo, but it will catch less familiar opponents who try to go aggro in that position. And at the very least, you can't get counterattacked, so why not go for it anyway?

My other main is Wii Fit Trainer, whose instant dash attack is considerably stronger and more useful--probably the most useful vital of any I can think of. They all serve the same purpose for me: catching an opponent who's just out of range of my other grounded options. Maybe the opponent is landing and I'm stationary and wouldn't otherwise intercept them in time, or I've blocked an attack but I'm too far away for any other punish.

I rarely ever use dash attacks during long-range approaches, though. That's what pivot cancels are for. The purpose of dash attacks and the mechanics of out-of-run options have drastically changed in the transition to Ultimate. (Keep in mind through all of this that I'm talking about characters with quick dash attacks. Laggy ones like with swordsmen aren't nearly as useful.)

 

[Sari]

Latest balance patch notes are available and Isabelle now has her old fishing rod back. In other words all they did was reverse a nerf from the last patch and change nothing else about her.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I'd like a few buffs but at least she in a better spot than she was before.

Still it feels bad though, I really, really want to like Isabelle but it feels like something is missing.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Latest balance patch notes are available and Isabelle now has her old fishing rod back. In other words all they did was reverse a nerf from the last patch and change nothing else about her.

you think that's stupid this is all that k.rool got

"Increased the speed of the edge-grab range detection On Up Air Attack"

 

[Mark The Page]

Latest balance patch notes are available and Isabelle now has her old fishing rod back. In other words all they did was reverse a nerf from the last patch and change nothing else about her.

Dang, and I'd just gotten good with the lingering airborne hitbox. Aiming it over the ledge, and even using it like a moving wall while falling from higher up.

I guess it's better overall despite losing the more reliable edgeguard. I can never resist using the rod to intercept my opponent's landing.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Probably Placebo effect, but I feel like the grab when reeling back works better than the 2.0 fishing rod.

To be honest, while I really enjoyed it, the lingering grab was slightly stupid at times, I think it's better this way (and probably safer with the returning grab).

 

[Luminario]

So something piqued my interest a few days ago as I was watching a patch comparison video

He says in the video that holding B whie falling with the rod allows Isabelle to pull the hook back towards herself. As it turns out it's not holding B that pulls it back but the way in which Isabelle moves the rod with the control stick. I found that holding the stick diagonally down and forward brings the hook in the closest it can be. So there's our barely useful tech of the week~
Side note, they should really have done more with being able to move the rod. I guess they were too afraid of it being broken to add different trajectories on reel back or something.

 

[Mark The Page]

Could you elaborate?

In my experience, using the control stick to move Isabelle's arms has only ever had one effect on the hook: inputting up pulls the hook in by a short distance, irreversibly and only once.

When I use the rod while airborne, when the hook reaches its max distance, it gets tugged back as if bouncing off an invisible wall. This seems to happen every time I've used it post-patch.

 

[Luminario]

Could you elaborate?

In my experience, using the control stick to move Isabelle's arms has only ever had one effect on the hook: inputting up pulls the hook in by a short distance, irreversibly and only once.

When I use the rod while airborne, when the hook reaches its max distance, it gets tugged back as if bouncing off an invisible wall. This seems to happen every time I've used it post-patch.

Of course. While airborne, if you move Isabelle's arms so that she's holding the rod low the hook with swing back towards you as you fall. Try going into training mode and double jump into flicking out fishing rod then immediately letting go of the control stick, then try holding the control stick diagonal down and forwards as you fall (facing left it'll be ), you'll see the difference in angles.

Actually, as I was just playing around with this just then, I found a way to make the hook swing underneath the stage. Stand at about a roll distance away from the ledge and throw out the hook. Hold the rod down low as it arcs through the air until it swings towards the stage then start turning the control stick back then up so that the rod is held high. If you did it correctly the hook should swing under the stage slighty. Facing left its until it swings towards the stage, then to to . It's not much but it's something to catch opponents who recover under the stage. I'll try to get a video of these things to get the idea across better.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I am going to leave Smashboards for good, leaving Smash speculation behind, but I want to talk to you guys specifically before I leave.

I just want to say thank you from the bottom my heart for being there when I wanted to discuss Animal Crossing characters in Smash with you guys.

MacDaddyNook King Sonnn DeDeDoo Luminario FunAtParties WeirdChillFever were one of the very few that made discussing the unique potential and chances of Isabelle a hell lot of fun.

Thanks for being there when the pacifist debates came along frequently. It made the reveal back in September more satisfying when you guys were with me, tense about the fate of Isabelle. You guys were the highlight of Smash Ultimate speculation for me.

I hope one day we will see Tom Nook playable in Smash to complete Animal Crossing character representation.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

Farewell, it's be a pleasure discussing it all with you. I wish you the best of luck in all future endeavors you will see.

 

[FunAtParties]

I am going to leave Smashboards for good, leaving Smash speculation behind, but I want to talk to you guys specifically before I leave.

I just want to say thank you from the bottom my heart for being there when I wanted to discuss Animal Crossing characters in Smash with you guys.

MacDaddyNook King Sonnn DeDeDoo Luminario FunAtParties WeirdChillFever were one of the very few that made discussing the unique potential and chances of Isabelle a hell lot of fun.

Thanks for being there when the pacifist debates came along frequently. It made the reveal back in September more satisfying when you guys were with me, tense about the fate of Isabelle. You guys were the highlight of Smash Ultimate speculation for me.

I hope one day we will see Tom Nook playable in Smash to complete Animal Crossing character representation.

Really enjoyed talking with you, boss. Your contributions here, made it worthwhile

 

[Reila]

Isabelle not showing up in the Animal Crossing New Horizons mini-trailer was kinda surprising to me (if she did, I am blind). Of course she will be in the game, but being pretty much the mascot of the series, I expected her to show up.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Isabelle not showing up in the Animal Crossing New Horizons mini-trailer was kinda surprising to me (if she did, I am blind). Of course she will be in the game, but being pretty much the mascot of the series, I expected her to show up.

I think she’ll show up whenever you build a town hall or equivalent building.

I do wonder what exactly her role will be since you are no longer the mayor I believe. ( who is the mayor now, is Tom Nook? Is this a company town?)

 

[MacDaddyNook]

It is pretty interesting how the seem to have put Nook in the forefront for this game. He was the one to "announce" the game in development and seems to have a bigger role in this game than NL. I'm sure Isabelle will show up but it's surprising how she isn't in the spotlight this time.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

she's busy with smash leave her be

 

[Reila]

I think she’ll show up whenever you build a town hall or equivalent building.

I do wonder what exactly her role will be since you are no longer the mayor I believe. ( who is the mayor now, is Tom Nook? Is this a company town?)

She will show up to tell you can't build the thing in the place you want, for old time's sake.

Maybe she is the mayor. I mean, she not secretly wants to be the mayor.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Hey Isabelle fans have you seen this yet? There was an upset with Isabelle player Bocchi against Ally playing Snake! It's cool to see someone making Isabelle work in a competitive environment.

This is an absolutely great match to watch! Bocchi is now my idol, I hope someday I could play Isabelle like she does.

 

[Sari]

The Wario boards are currently discussing the : MU.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the...g-donkey-kong-little-mac-and-isabelle.483350/

Feel free to provide your thoughts on the MU in the thread above.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

*Tumbleweed rolls by*
anyways.....anyone still playing isabelle?

 

[Luminario]

*Tumbleweed rolls by*
anyways.....anyone still playing isabelle?

I'm holding out for the next patch before picking her up again. It's infuriating trying so hard yet getting such little payoff. I'm tempted to say it's like Smash 4 Zelda all over again, but at least back then i had damage and kill options.

 

[Sari]

*Tumbleweed rolls by*
anyways.....anyone still playing isabelle?

I actually did try using her again for online play but in the end I just had to switch back to Wario. I fought a Joker online while using Isabelle but couldn't kill them when they had about 180%. There was even a time where someone else I fought just ran over my Lloid trap like it wasn't even there.

I love to play as Isabelle but if I'm gonna be honest she is really awful in her current state. She desperately needs some buffs.

 

[Krysco]

I still use Isabelle whenever I play against my friends. Probably around my second or third most used character, only behind Chrom and potentially the Samus'. I won't deny that she's awful when compared to the vast majority of the cast but I still have fun with her. Hero is coming soon and that means another patch and another chance for her to get buffed! Or, ya know, they can just patch more bugs out of her and tinker with her Fishing Rod again.

 

[Laniv]

look who got some buffs!

 

[~The Koopa King~]

how's everyone feel about isabelle with these buffs?

 

[Sari]

how's everyone feel about isabelle with these buffs?

Haven't been able to try them out myself yet though they seem like a step in the right direction. If I'm reading it correctly then that means Lloid is more reliable now and up smash is now a better killing move.

Honestly the only other buffs I can think of that I'd like to see from her would be to increase her forward smash range.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

these buffs arent particularly drastic but they might make her just a little more consistent

rod upthrow feels like, maybe it kills about 10% earlier on average? can't confirm that at all but thats what it felt like from the few games i played with her today

 

[BuckTooth]

I tested the new lloid mine by having Pichu run over it, and it scooped him up. That put a smile on my face. I then used Sheik, who ran over it no problem, so it seems a good part of the cast will still be able to run over it. I’m still going to be shivering against the likes of CF, LM, anybody who can rapidly close the distance between us.

I’m glad the fishing rod got some attention as well, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t hoping for a buff letting it grab shielded opponents, even if that may be a little busted.

I’m glad she got some positive attention from the balancing team, which is surprising since she’s often pegged as one of the worst characters in the game, and Nintendo has this weird thing of leaving bad characters untouched or actually nerfing them. They even nerfed Ivysaur, IIRC.

A good day for Isabelle mains.

 

[Thinkaman]

I tested the new lloid mine by having Pichu run over it, and it scooped him up. That put a smile on my face. I then used Sheik, who ran over it no problem, so it seems a good part of the cast will still be able to run over it. I’m still going to be shivering against the likes of CF, LM, anybody who can rapidly close the distance between us.

I observed CF always getting hit by the mine, while Sonic ran over it. Peehaps Sheik (and Mac?) have hurtboxes/animations that allow their speed to slip by.

I’m glad she got some positive attention from the balancing team, which is surprising since she’s often pegged as one of the worst characters in the game, and Nintendo has this weird thing of leaving bad characters untouched or actually nerfing them. They even nerfed Ivysaur, IIRC.

I mean, Pokemon Trainer is doing extremely well right now, and has been the #1 most popular character in competitive play since the game came out. There is no perspective in which Ultiamte Ivysaur is underpowered or underplayed.

 

[Garo]

I tested which characters can no longer run over Lloid Trap as shown in this video by ZodiacX10:

I tested each character multiple times, but something might still be incorrect if the conditions to get over the trap are very specific, so even if I state something as definite, it might not be. If you've made different observations, please let me know.

Could sometimes run past before, but can't anymore:
Could always run past before, but can't anymore:
Could always run past before, but now only sometimes:

Notes:
still sometimes gets past it and sometimes falls out of the multihits early.
couldn't run past even with Limit.
with Monado Speed seems to always run past, but otherwise never.
can get over with a perfectly timed dash attack. Other timings may result in destroying the trap, getting caught in the move or only getting hit by the first multihit.
sometimes falls out of the multihits.
sometimes fall out of the multihits.
sometimes gets past with and without Deep Breathing.
can't get past even with the thinner tail hurtbox.

Characters not in the video:
can get over with a well-timed dash attack, but not otherwise it seems.
can't normally get past the trap, but with Acceleratle he always makes it past.
can't run past the trap, but well-spaced Burning Dropkick and Suplex allow him to get past.
can't run past the trap, but a well-spaced Skyward Slash Dash allows him to destroy the mine with minimal hitlag and without a noticeable reduction to the move's range.
can't run past the trap. Not that it's a good option, but a sideways Arm Rocket allows her to get past without activating the trap. Angled diagonally down, the trap activates but doesn't hit her.

If we assume this data is correct, the only character who can run over the Lloid Trap 100% of the time, not relying on buffs, attacks or chance is , which I'd honestly be fine with.

Note that I didn't do a comprehensive test on which moves could get past the trap. I only tested ones I got curious about for whatever reason.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I tested which characters can no longer run over Lloid Trap as shown in this video by ZodiacX10:

I tested each character multiple times, but something might still be incorrect if the conditions to get over the trap are very specific, so even if I state something as definite, it might not be. If you've made different observations, please let me know.

Could sometimes run past before, but can't anymore:
Could always run past before, but can't anymore:
Could always run past before, but now only sometimes:

Notes:
still sometimes gets past it and sometimes falls out of the multihits early.
couldn't run past even with Limit.
with Monado Speed seems to always run past, but otherwise never.
can get over with a perfectly timed dash attack. Other timings may result in destroying the trap, getting caught in the move or only getting hit by the first multihit.
sometimes falls out of the multihits.
sometimes fall out of the multihits.
sometimes gets past with and without Deep Breathing.
can't get past even with the thinner tail hurtbox.

Characters not in the video:
can get over with a well-timed dash attack, but not otherwise it seems.
can't normally get past the trap, but with Acceleratle he always makes it past.
can't run past the trap, but well-spaced Burning Dropkick and Suplex allow him to get past.
can't run past the trap, but a well-spaced Skyward Slash Dash allows him to destroy the mine with minimal hitlag and without a noticeable reduction to the move's range.
can't run past the trap. Not that it's a good option, but a sideways Arm Rocket allows her to get past without activating the trap. Angled diagonally down, the trap activates but doesn't hit her.

If we assume this data is correct, the only character who can run over the Lloid Trap 100% of the time, not relying on buffs, attacks or chance is , which I'd honestly be fine with.

Note that I didn't do a comprehensive test on which moves could get past the trap. I only tested ones I got curious about for whatever reason.

First of all, thanks for the research, honestly answers all the questions I had about the buff!

Second of all, this is really good news for Isabelle. This is honestly exactly what the move needed, and I think it works exactly as it should now. I'm happy about it!

 

[ZeroJanitor]

i still wish the lloid rocket wouldn't trigger from opponents in an intangible state (i.e. rolling) but i'm glad it at least catches people easier now

 

[Sari]

I only saw the end of the top 8. Were there any notable Isabelle's at EVO?

 

[Krysco]

Kept got 25th at EVO using both Villager and Isabelle based on what the results posted in the CCI show. Not sure when or how much Isabelle was used.

In other news, I've been labbing Isabelle's buffed jab, seeing what percents she gains true combos to her other moves. Started with Pichu and I've worked my way up so far that Mii Brawler is the next character I'll be testing when I can. When I'm done, I'll make a thread showing all the percents for each character along with some other stuff.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I've been having a lot of fun with Isabelle lately. I dropped her for a while because I remember getting frustrated with her playstyle. But I think now that she was buffed and the meta has evolved a little bit, I think she's a pretty solid character.

I never really understood why people put her in bottom tier, but she for sure isn't bottom tier anymore...but still probably low tier.