Social The Adorable Assistant of ACNL: Isabelle Discussion Thread

[Mark The Page]

Eh. I'm known for my creative tree shenanigans and I still think it's a bad move. I only set it up after kills or after launching the opponent so far away that I know I'll never reach them before they're comfortably back onstage. If you think the timer on Isabelle's gyroid is brutal... just try to chop down a tree before it withers. WFT's Header ball refreshes its timer when it's struck--would it have killed them to do the same for Villager?

Speaking of timers, be very careful when Pocketing certain projectiles. The Pocket no longer expires, but it also no longer resets items. This means Pocketed bombs and grenades can now explode before you can even throw them back.

Lastly, no, FooltheFlames , the d-air is DEFINITELY nerfed. It's got like twice the startup lag as in Smash 4. Even for meteor smashing it's still downgraded, because even when I didn't get the triple turnip I was still stage spiking or sending the opponent offscreen anyway. Or at least far enough away that I could go back to the ledge and intercept them with d-airs infinitely until one landed the kill.

The meteor effect on the turnips shouldn't be used for his offstage kills anyway. Villager only got a quick d-air because he already has like 4 or 5 better edgeguarding options anyway. I'll note that Isabelle does get more use out of it because her n-air has less vertical reach and she doesn't drop bowling balls. For when you don't have enough time to set up a fishing line. I still need to get used to Isabelle's offstage flowcharts.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Yeah I hate how short of a time the tree stays out too
It should have a few more seconds of life in it, and also more health to it, meaning it should be able to take at least 10 to 20% more damage before it's forced to leave you. Also it takes too much time to wither away too. Making Villy shrug her shoulders for too long afterwards when it leaves before you can plant another. Tree still needs some slight buffs in my opinion.

I will be careful of that thank you

Dude, I just looked up Villager on Smash Wiki. It says it comes out now at frame 14, instead of frame 8 like in Smash 4. I think that's a fair trade. Does 6 frames really matter all that much in game like this with limited airdodges? I still remember Mewtwo's crappy dair in Melee and I made that work. You are right in that Villy has many more and much more reliable edgeguarding options over dair, as she has always had.
Still, we both know how far out villy can go off the stage and still make it safely back, so for the more annoying recoveries in the game to deal with I still think new consistency coming from dair can still be a reliable option in those matchups. Perhaps we just have different playstyle choices when it comes to Villy. I'd love to become more optimal with her in the future, so I would some more of your input on how you choose to play with Villy as well~

 

[Mark The Page]

FooltheFlames My go-to edgeguard with Villager is to spawn a gyroid and then throw a pot using the new instant dash attack shortcut (flick move and tilt sticks in the same direction at the same time). The higher base knockback of Villager's dash attack plus the faster launch speeds make it much more consistently connect up into Lloid Rockets . . . which also have increased base knockback, making this almost always a lethal combo.

Isabelle doesn't have that option, of course, but she can still throw pots off the ledge, until the opponent finally recovers higher and you can intercept them with a slingshot. It's a more consistent option for me than the fishing rod, but that could change once I've gotten the rod's timing down. The hook's arc doesn't make it an easy shot.

 

[Reila]

So if no one makes a match up thread, I will make on myself either tomorrow or the day after tomorrow - The thing is I am pretty bad and will probably post misinformation in the thread, so help me out, okay?

 

[FooltheFlames]

So if no one makes a match up thread, I will make on myself either tomorrow or the day after tomorrow - The thing is I am pretty bad and will probably post misinformation in the thread, so help me out, okay?

I will surely try with what little knowledge i have gained so far Reila ^^;

 

[Reila]

Ganondorf's down B also destroys the lloid trap like it never existed.

Such a situational move, alongside the fishing rod :/ I wish it wasn't so easily destroyed. Heck, why can you destroy it all?

 

[~The Koopa King~]

when i see tournament footage for Isabelle I'm like "Cool" but then become extra sad if said isabelle just gets owned cause it seems like isabelle does not get any love at all in this game and most people just can't get her to the top

because her playstyle does not make for a tournament winner

 

[Mark The Page]

I'm having trouble remembering that she isn't Villager. Happy splodes do not hit opponents under the stage!

That, and her n-air's reduced vertical range is not sitting well for me. Villager's n-air is even more important now than it used to be, due to Ultimate's mechanics making precise attacks harder to land. I would guess that Isabelle's buffed up-tilt is to make up for her n-air's range, but she can't use it out of shield or to make a safe landing.

I'm starting to think that, if anything, n-air's vertical range will be what makes Villager better than Isabelle.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

i like isabelle's nair animation more though. villager's is just "one really slow cartwheel and it hurts people somehow" and i never liked it

but then again i never bothered to play villager that much so maybe it would grow on me

 

[Reila]

I absolutely adore Villager's nair.

 

[Opelucid]

How do you guys mainly use her gyroid? Do you mainly use it as a ledge trap option or do you try to use it in neutral? I'm trying to figure out what's the best way to use it.

 

[Reila]

I set it up whenever the opponent gives me space to do so, but it depends on the match up. Against Marth, Lucina and the likes, I don't use the gyroid much because they can destroy it with their ridiculously long swords from the other side of the map. Something that was mentioned before here and I find somewhat useful is to play around the gyroid by staying behind it and using the slingshot against certain opponents.

To be completely honest the more I play Isabelle, the lest reliant on her specials I become. I use the rod and the gyroids way less than I would like to...

 

[Krysco]

The past few times my buddy has come over, we've gone online and played co-op doubles after our 1v1s and last time we did, I used Isabelle a bit. She makes for a great partner with Snake on that mode although Snake in general is ridiculous. I've tried using her mine there since doubles is more chaotic than singles but even then there's issues. There's fewer free moments to set it up since there's two opponents to possibly hit you and even with the chaotic nature, some characters can just so easily remove it like K. Rool can with his dash attack. Meanwhile Snake can plant a C4 down on the ground, on a wall or onto an opponent while he's in the air or on the ground, it blends in well once the blinker stops, the timer is much longer and it explodes after it expires and he can have up to 2 grenades out at a time and can be chasing people around with a Nikita. Quite annoying to see how easily effective Snake's stage control is and then seeing how flawed Isabelle's is but she's still fun to play.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

yeah depending on the match i like to hang close by the gyroid bc either someone will destroy it and get caught in hitlag long enough to punish or it will simply interfere with their approaches and/or break them out of a grab attempt. the result is that you become more difficult to approach when hiding behind the gyroid

but sometimes i use it for ledge-trapping, sometimes i put it in the middle for general stage control, sometimes i put it on or under platforms to limit escape options. it may be a fairly weak tool but you can get creative with it.

 

[Reila]

Speaking of gyroid it is very hard to see where it was buried in the Windy Hill stage. If the opponent isn't paying full attention they will often step on it accidentally. This is mostly for online play since I doubt the Windy Hill stage is even allowed in competitive play.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

battlefield and fd forms also work so maybe if you convinced your opponent to use the windy hill forms of those stages

 

[Reila]

Like I said it works well in online play. In battle arenas you can choose the stage you want to play so that helps. I will look for other stages where this "trick" works well.

By the way, no one commented in the match thread. The Isabelle forum is super dead ._.

 

[Sari]

By the way, no one commented in the match thread. The Isabelle forum is super dead ._.

I think it's because it is still somewhat early to give ratings on MU's. IIRC the ones for SSB4 didn't pop up until about 2 or 3 months after the game released. I also think it's because the mods of this subforum generally post an official one when that time happens. And yeah, another reason might be due to the lack of Isabelle players unfortunately.

If you'd like maybe we can share our early thoughts on some of her MU's here based on experience. For example I main Wario and I think Isabelle loses the MU, but I think Isabelle wins the Little Mac MU.

 

[Reila]

I think it's because it is still somewhat early to give ratings on MU's. IIRC the ones for SSB4 didn't pop up until about 2 or 3 months after the game released. I also think it's because the mods of this subforum generally post an official one when that time happens. And yeah, another reason might be due to the lack of Isabelle players unfortunately.

If you'd like maybe we can share our early thoughts on some of her MU's here based on experience. For example I main Wario and I think Isabelle loses the MU, but I think Isabelle wins the Little Mac MU.

Any feedback is appreciated. There could be a new thread once the game has properly matured with better feedback on her matchups. But for now, I think sharing opinions would help wonders. I for one enjoy reading the Ridley matchups in Ridley's forum even though I don't play him,

I might edit the matchup thread and leave it open for thoughts on any matchup since there isn't enough activity for the weekly format.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

feels like inkling just decimates isabelle with ease...splat bombs make The Lloid a joke in inkling's eyes and there's little isabelle can do to keep a good inkling player from running all over her

 

[Sari]

It seems a lot of MU's are not in Isabelle's favor unfortunately.

Which MU's do you guys think Isabelle wins at? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is and even then I'm not completely sure.

 

[Reila]

Yeah. I played as Inkling against Isabelle and the poor thing couldn't do much.

I had some success against Young Link as Isabelle so far, but maybe I got lucky I feel like she could do well against DK since he doesn't have the same mobility as someone like Ridley, he doesn't have Bowser's tough guy nor he has one thousand projectiles and a reflector like K Rool.

I wonder how she does against Incineroar. Edit: The PAC-MAN match up sounds interesting too. I have only played against him as Inkling in Smash Ultimate (and I got bodied super hard).

 

[~The Koopa King~]

as long as you keep some distance away from donkey kong you should be fine for awhile just remember to keep the Lloid trap active most of the time and things will fall in place from there

unfortunately, isabelle just doesn't have what it takes to really go far due to her reliance on The Lloid and it being easy for a lot of characters to destroy or they could simply wait for it to expire

there's a reason we don't usually see Isabelle on the competitive scene

 

[Mark The Page]

Much of Isabelle's kit is straight upgrades over Villager*, especially in damage output. But she doesn't have the Lloid Rocket and n-air's vertical range, and THAT is what's keeping me from getting better results.

Maybe she's seeming worse than Villager to me now because I'm better adjusted to the game and have learned advanced techs. That's where stuff like n-air's vertical range become very influential--it's a small difference, but Villager's is the more reliable punish. It's the difference between a small hit, versus a whiff that gets counter-punished, especially against short opponents over whom Isabelle's n-air might pass right over.

Then again, the fishing rod has gotten much better for me. Use it on landing opponents and their only possible escape is to roll away, in which case you can safely withdraw. You can't lose there. Offstage, I'm learning to catch opponents while reeling it back in.

It makes sense that, as we practice Ultimate, Villager is becoming better than Isabelle. Isabelle was designed to be flashier, more compelling, and more user-friendly than Villager. She's the New Fighter, and he's a fighter from a casual series who turned off a lot of new players by being too complicated and counter-intuitive. So it makes sense that Villager's advantage is in the little things he can do in high-level play, which don't become apparent until you're mastering technical mechanics.


* The most extreme example of this is that Villager and Isabelle have identical side tilts... the one difference being that Isabelle's has 50% more knockback, making it lethal while Villager's can't even combo.

 

[Reila]

Isabelle's up tilt is really really really useful. It seems to connect at least 90% of the time into nair in low and mid percentages (varies from fighter to fighter of course).

Also, I have been playing Inkling almost exclusively this week and even though they are praised for their edgeguarding with the splat bomb and their fairly nice recovery and aerials, I still prefer to edgeguard with Isabelle. You can cover a lot with a properly placed lloid and the fishing rod. If they try to recover low you can consistently grab them, if they recover high you can contest their recovery with the slingshot or whatever (again, varies from fighter to fighter).

Her biggest issue is her neutral game at least when I play her. I look at Mega Man and the many tools he has and I cry.

 

[Folax]

I have a random question. Can Isabelle no longer pull people off the ledge now? I've tried doing this so many times sense I started playing again (about a week ago) and it hasn't worked sense. It was such a useful move when coming back down close to the stage, and I'd hate to see it nerfed.

 

[Reila]

I have a random question. Can Isabelle no longer pull people off the ledge now? I've tried doing this so many times sense I started playing again (about a week ago) and it hasn't worked sense. It was such a useful move when coming back down close to the stage, and I'd hate to see it nerfed.

You can still hook people who are trying to recover low, if that is what you mean. If they are hanging on the ledge they will have invincibility frames though.

--

I have been meaning to make a video of tips and tricks I have learned/gathered about Isabelle but I am not sure if people are interested, considering I am not a pro player. Would anyone here be interested?

 

[Folax]

You can still hook people who are trying to recover low, if that is what you mean. If they are hanging on the ledge they will have invincibility frames though.

--

I have been meaning to make a video of tips and tricks I have learned/gathered about Isabelle but I am not sure if people are interested, considering I am not a pro player. Would anyone here be interested?

No, I meant when they (the opponent) are standing by the edge, waiting to try and edge guard and you pull them off the edge of the stage with the rod.

 

[Folax]

You can still hook people who are trying to recover low, if that is what you mean. If they are hanging on the ledge they will have invincibility frames though.

--

I have been meaning to make a video of tips and tricks I have learned/gathered about Isabelle but I am not sure if people are interested, considering I am not a pro player. Would anyone here be interested?

Okay, so I was just messing around in training mode to see if I was just doing it wrong, and I guess I was, but I do honestly feel like the distance from how close they have to be to get pulled off has changed. Cause a lot of my attempts we're meet with them just stopping at the edge instead of being pulled off, which never happened to me when the game first came out. But hey, maybe that's just me lol

 

[Reila]

Okay, so I was just messing around in training mode to see if I was just doing it wrong, and I guess I was, but I do honestly feel like the distance from how close they have to be to get pulled off has changed. Cause a lot of my attempts we're meet with them just stopping at the edge instead of being pulled off, which never happened to me when the game first came out. But hey, maybe that's just me lol

Yeah, I tried it a few times but no luck. The distance must be really specific for it to connect. Seems like an interesting anti-edgeguarding tool though, and Isabelle sure does need anything that can help her in certain matchups.

P.S.: The fact Isabelle can pocket Pikmin and Mega Man's Rush gives me joy.

 

[Sari]

https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/43317

Latest patch notes have arrived and Isabelle got a slight buff in her neutral air with it having less ending lag. Aside from that we got nothing new unfortunately.

 

[Reila]

Better than nothing.

 

[Garo]

Any tips for Lloid trap placement or other things relating to this move? I don't feel like I'm getting enough out of it.

 

[Reila]

Any tips for Lloid trap placement or other things relating to this move? I don't feel like I'm getting enough out of it.

There is not an objective guide on lloid trap placement. You have to watch the opponent's mannerisms (where and how they like to land and recover) and place lloids accordingly (or not bother at all, like against fast swordies) - Sometimes placing the lloid is not even worth it really. One location I like to place lloids consistently is near the ledge, exactly where the opponent's roll ends if they grab the ledge and proceed to roll thereafter.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

what buffs does Isabelle really need?

 

[ZeroJanitor]

wouldnt mind lloid trap staying active longer and/or being more durable

 

[Rocketjay8]

Her f smash should have more range

 

[Reila]

I don't think smashes or tilts really need buffs (aside from up smash, that thing sucks). It is her specials that are too situational. Reduce the end lag of the rod, and give the lloid trap more health so half of the cast have to commit more to destroy them. Bowser can destroy it easily with fire, so can Charizard. Sword fighters can poke if from a distance. Belmonts can throw holy water on it. Etc etc. It is just garbage. You can't destroy Villager's tree that easily.

 

[Luminario]

Also allow us to immediately plant another trap as soon as it's set off. It's a small thing but repositioning would go a lot smoother if I didn't have to wait for the thing to explode.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

have we even seen any real pro isabelle's yet?