The 949 Smash Thread: RIP PacWest

[OkamiBW]

ex. #2 In my pools at NSH, I lost to a samus 1st round on battlefield due to a suicide, so I was salty and counter-picked battlefield (the stage I just lost on) and continued onward to three-stock him.

Cameron. I love you...
...
...
...
I guess.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I have a tip for all you people who have trouble falling asleep and staying asleep:

When you wake up in the middle of the night, don't go on your computer.

also...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=pYsz3ytMQ3Y

Evasion is key!

 

[Kira-]

I had an epiphany last night while playing Melee and I would like to share with everyone:

Isai's infamous advice of, "Don't get hit," is actually counter-intuitive to the correct way of playing Melee. What it should be, is actually, "Hit them." See, you have the advantage in Melee when you are HITTING your opponent (or their shield). It's not good to camp and wait for their attack and then counter (as an overall plan that is. in some situations it is good to dashdance to grab), it's ALSO not good to do pre-emptive attacks to try and predict when THEY are going to attack, it is better to do the attacking yourself.

So when the match starts don't do this:
- dashdance camp, waiting for them to attack then grabbing
- constantly wavedash back expecting (predicting) their attack
- throw out short hop fairs (marth/sheik) hoping that they run into them, throw out multiple uptilts (fox/falco) hoping they run into them, throw out nairs (falcon) hoping they run into them, etc etc. This is essentially a PREDICTION that they will attack you. the only time you DO want to do this is if you think they will try to grab you after and you can avoid then punish them after their whiffed grab. For example fox dittos: You throw out short hop nair (but spaced), they run up to you and try to grab but you're just far enough away so you have time to dashdance away and back again to grab them while they lag. The first attack is not meant to hit, but to bait them to hit you so you have a MORE guaranteed opening. But again, don't spam this (as you should never spam anything) or they will catch on and simply run past your first nair and hit you while you DD back. As Forward so accurately put it, "There is never an always in Melee, and never a never."

Your goal is to hit them with EVERY single attack you throw out, 100% accuracy (hitting their shield is good too). Then, when you get that first hit in, don't hit and run. hit and HIT AGAIN!! this requires a lot of CORRECT prediction, like if they will spam roll to try and get away or if they will double jump after getting hit in the air or if they will sit in their shield for awhile until they see a good opportunity to escape etc but you will eventually learn their escape habits and then do crazy long combos and look like mango. Which is a good thing obv. Don't avoid their attack, do your OWN attack to hit them first and if you miss do ANOTHER attack to catch their next move. When you hit their shield THEY are in bad position. it limits their options and you can keep up the pressure. Keeping up the pressure is what you should try to think of to maintain this playstyle/mentality. also think one step ahead (if this attack hits/misses, what do i do after). This playstyle is not, "Go all out and go crazy and super saiyan just power through them," it's just Calculated Aggression. You always have the initiative, you control the match, you have the upper hand, but you're not just going nuts like dumb technical ppl who play against humans the way they play against lvl 1 cpus.

Obviously this takes a LOT of good prediction and reaction and everything so it will take time (it took me 3 years to realize this simple fact already) but when you get it, it's awesome. I'm still refining this so hopefully it becomes more ingrained into my system cause i'm so used to reverting to camping when i'm in a tight spot. Also if you're playing aggressive and they are camping, but they are better than you, they will win. This isn't an automatic fix-all to let you be mango all of a sudden, it's the correct way to play but if someone's out-smarting you, you will still lose. Like think about it this way, Peach fair's your shield and jabs twice. She's being the aggressor (controlling the match, putting pressure on you), but if she jabs twice every time, the defender will grab/upB/shine/dair/whatever out of shield after the jabs and win that exchange. So you still have to read well. Find out what they are punishing, and figure out how to counter it. That's basically all of melee right there but yeah this should get you on the right track to being better.

So far I think you need a lot of experience to be able to pull this off quickly, for most people this should be very hard to do correctly. But yeah I only learned this last night so we'll understand it more as we go along. For example there may be a specific matchup where it is better to camp who knows. I love smash epiphanies.. it means you can get better! I know half of you will be like, "No duh dave.. way to be a noob." Yeah.. can't really say anything about that lol. I can probably still beat you with my inferior style so w/e. Plus now i will get even better and you're stuck at your level lol.

Remember, the best defense is a good offense! If you're pressuring them, there's no chance of you ever getting hit cause they can't attack while they're shielding or in hitstun! They can attack out of shield after your move is done.. but not while the move is still going. K anyway you get the point

"To learn, you must love discipline; it is stupid to hate correction." - proverbs 12:1
^ prolly talking about noobs johning in melee. "I can't do ANYTHING"

Anyone wanna give me a ride to grev?

If you don't have a ride by Friday call/PM/text me and I'll pick you up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=pYsz3ytMQ3Y

Evasion is key!

that game's music sounds awesome

 

[GMhyprid]

^ Good post above.

I would say that don't get hit isn't bad advice if it isn't misunderstood (which it probably is most of the time.) Keeping your options open and reducing their options is important to not get hit. The best way to not get hit is by comboing them though.

BTW, is there going to be a smashfest on Friday?

 

[GSUB]

hyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyprid <3
we need to see if our team is legit or if it was just a fluke... hahah.

 

[DJMirror]

JDM's Smashfest I believe....Hmm...Hybrid What's your AIM?

 

[Kira-]

PsychoMidget laughed at me while I was explaining all of that stuff but he plays to "not get hit" himself! Also he's an amazing teammate

Also gsub you need to tell me how that set went. i've only heard rumors lol

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I had an epiphany last night while playing Melee and I would like to share with everyone:

Isai's infamous advice of, "Don't get hit," is actually counter-intuitive to the correct way of playing Melee. What it should be, is actually, "Hit them." See, you have the advantage in Melee when you are HITTING your opponent (or their shield). It's not good to camp and wait for their attack and then counter (as an overall plan that is. in some situations it is good to dashdance to grab), it's ALSO not good to do pre-emptive attacks to try and predict when THEY are going to attack, it is better to do the attacking yourself.

There isn't anything intrinsically superior about attacking over counter-attacks or pre-emptive attacks in general, and what sort of general approach is optimal varies greatly by stage/match-up/opponent's playstyle/current position and a ton of other factors. I do think in a lot of common match-ups and on a lot of stages, being the aggressor does lend you better zoning capabilities than your opponent, but this isn't true in general.

So when the match starts don't do this:
- dashdance camp, waiting for them to attack then grabbing
- constantly wavedash back expecting (predicting) their attack
- throw out short hop fairs (marth/sheik) hoping that they run into them, throw out multiple uptilts (fox/falco) hoping they run into them, throw out nairs (falcon) hoping they run into them, etc etc. This is essentially a PREDICTION that they will attack you. the only time you DO want to do this is if you think they will try to grab you after and you can avoid then punish them after their whiffed grab. For example fox dittos: You throw out short hop nair (but spaced), they run up to you and try to grab but you're just far enough away so you have time to dashdance away and back again to grab them while they lag. The first attack is not meant to hit, but to bait them to hit you so you have a MORE guaranteed opening. But again, don't spam this (as you should never spam anything) or they will catch on and simply run past your first nair and hit you while you DD back. As Forward so accurately put it, "There is never an always in Melee, and never a never."

It sounds to me like you're really trying to say "apply pressure whenever possible." Whether it's a good idea to do this or not varies by your offensive capabilities, your opponent's defensive capabilities, and again, a ton of other factors. I agree that it's a good idea in plenty of situations in common match-ups, but I don't think it's always the case. If I'm misinterpreting something here, let me know.

Your goal is to hit them with EVERY single attack you throw out, 100% accuracy (hitting their shield is good too). Then, when you get that first hit in, don't hit and run. hit and HIT AGAIN!! this requires a lot of CORRECT prediction, like if they will spam roll to try and get away or if they will double jump after getting hit in the air or if they will sit in their shield for awhile until they see a good opportunity to escape etc but you will eventually learn their escape habits and then do crazy long combos and look like mango. Which is a good thing obv. Don't avoid their attack, do your OWN attack to hit them first and if you miss do ANOTHER attack to catch their next move. When you hit their shield THEY are in bad position. it limits their options and you can keep up the pressure. Keeping up the pressure is what you should try to think of to maintain this playstyle/mentality. also think one step ahead (if this attack hits/misses, what do i do after). This playstyle is not, "Go all out and go crazy and super saiyan just power through them," it's just Calculated Aggression. You always have the initiative, you control the match, you have the upper hand, but you're not just going nuts like dumb technical ppl who play against humans the way they play against lvl 1 cpus.

It is completely false that one should try to land every attack. Attacks can serve other legitimate purposes. My only comment regarding the rest of this, is that, like your prior claims, much of it is often true, but not always.


I don't have much specifically to say about the rest of your post, but I think you're guilty of oversimplifying things greatly.

 

[GSUB]

rumors?!?!?!
lolol I'll just tell you my tourney matches.

Doubles:
Hyprid and I beat Connor and Tai (marth/fox) on PS first round. We then banned PS, they picked FD and we lost. We CP'd battlefield and won at the end with a grab rest 2v1.

Then we played Lugs and Hucky (lol) on the livestream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk3XZV4cK8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qMaCdeLRgk

Then we lost to Bizzaro Flame and Emerican in Loser's.


Pools:
The Samus was BLAK (Buddha_Lova's brother). It was last stock each on BF, he was at 140% and bomb jumping back, I was at 0%,; I baired off the stage, and then grabbed the ledge and rolled up, except I never grabbed the ledge and I airdodged under it... lol.
So I was salty, and three-stocked his samus back on BF, then he went Marth and CP'd Pokemon Stadium, three-stocked him there too.

Light: He just ***** me, ***** ME.

Some black samus main who mained blacke samus (friend of Ekoli, deep *** voice) - 2 - 0'd him

Silent Spectre - I won the first match on Yoshi's. He counterpicked Pokemon I think, it was really close but he won. I CP'd Battlefield and lost there too, aslo very close, fun match. Various rests throughout each of the matches.

Futile is why I didn't make it out of pools - he 2 - 0'd me =/ I needed to play more careful... I was super confident after playing that well against SS. He's good though, gg's there.

Romeo and TGL didn't show up.

 

[ComboFest]

If anyone can give me a ride to Grev that would be cool and appriciated.
I can pay for gas and whatnot. Thanks!

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik19FUbHq5I#movie_player

watch 4:00~ and 4:20~

 

[MacD]

It is completely false that one should try to land every attack. Attacks can serve other legitimate purposes. My only comment regarding the rest of this, is that, like your prior claims, much of it is often true, but not always.

i'm assuming you meant attack on an opponent because if not i agree with fly, many poeple use arieals insted of wiggling out of attacks

like with me i don't try to hit with every turnip, some are just meant to be annoying/force my oppontent to react, i'm sure fly uses ice blocks/blizzard in the same way

sometimes i throw out random arieals just cause i can, i mean since i have the ablitity to do an attack and have the same lag when not doing an attack why not

and what about falco's who are auto cancelling bairs? they are used to keep me just out of range/to hit me if i do decide to come to close

*insert many other examples*

i'm assuming you were accounting for these things but the way you said it was a little ambiguous

 

[ComboFest]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik19FUbHq5I#movie_player

watch 4:00~ and 4:20~

O my god Azen is a Genius.

 

[The Greater Leon]

Smashers have a weird understanding of zoning. Because zoning doesn't really exist in the game, it was never called zoning. Instead its called camping. In more traditional fighting games, you either rushdown or you zone. In smash, you can pretty much only rushdown because projectiles wont ever get kills by themselves. (Except for samus and stitchface, but top tier rushdown is too strong for samus to zone the whole time, and stitch is random)

I'm glad you've discovered your love for rushing down. You always complained about camping to win before and I thought that was weird. Camping is a viable strategy, even though its really odd in melee. Camping to win doesn't mean you're relying on something gay because you lack skill. Zoning is a skill in itself, and personally there's nothing more satisfying than dealing damage from safety.

One can argue that there is a correct way to play a game/character, but there is always the exception to the rule. In Guilty Gear, there is a lot of character fluidity, you can play most characters how you want (rushdown/zone) but there is probably a 'right' way to play each one. But the 'right' way doesn't matter if you can win with your way. You can zone to an extent in melee, but true zoning can't happen due to the mechanics of the game. You can still be a campy ***** though.

I had an epiphany last night while playing Melee and I would like to share with everyone:

Isai's infamous advice of, "Don't get hit," is actually counter-intuitive to the correct way of playing Melee. What it should be, is actually, "Hit them." See, you have the advantage in Melee when you are HITTING your opponent (or their shield). It's not good to camp and wait for their attack and then counter (as an overall plan that is. in some situations it is good to dashdance to grab), it's ALSO not good to do pre-emptive attacks to try and predict when THEY are going to attack, it is better to do the attacking yourself.

So when the match starts don't do this:
- dashdance camp, waiting for them to attack then grabbing
- constantly wavedash back expecting (predicting) their attack
- throw out short hop fairs (marth/sheik) hoping that they run into them, throw out multiple uptilts (fox/falco) hoping they run into them, throw out nairs (falcon) hoping they run into them, etc etc. This is essentially a PREDICTION that they will attack you. the only time you DO want to do this is if you think they will try to grab you after and you can avoid then punish them after their whiffed grab. For example fox dittos: You throw out short hop nair (but spaced), they run up to you and try to grab but you're just far enough away so you have time to dashdance away and back again to grab them while they lag. The first attack is not meant to hit, but to bait them to hit you so you have a MORE guaranteed opening. But again, don't spam this (as you should never spam anything) or they will catch on and simply run past your first nair and hit you while you DD back. As Forward so accurately put it, "There is never an always in Melee, and never a never."

I love aggressively zoning. Ideally you can get away with a perfect match by keeping them out at every turn. But what it usually means is deal some damage while they cant touch you, but cover your ***. 'Dont get hit' and 'hit them' are really over simplified personal understandings of the game. Everyone should find their own style of play and make up their own over simplified phrases.

The way i want to play melee, or at least vs fox, is to camp until they eventually make a ****ty approach and punish from there. That doesn't mean wait until they **** up, because there's a lot one can do to ruin an approach. As marth, i don't mind being near the ledge. So from the start, I'm fine with running back, or autocancelling a nair. I want to get some space, and let fox approach. I can run back, roll through, shieldgrab, autocancel nair, or run away on a platform. One thing i want you to be careful with is forcing pressure when you shouldn't. When your pressure isn't perfect, sometimes its better to back to neutral than to try and keep it going but it will be sloppy. Thats when freebies happen.

Your goal is to hit them with EVERY single attack you throw out, 100% accuracy (hitting their shield is good too). Then, when you get that first hit in, don't hit and run. hit and HIT AGAIN!! this requires a lot of CORRECT prediction, like if they will spam roll to try and get away or if they will double jump after getting hit in the air or if they will sit in their shield for awhile until they see a good opportunity to escape etc but you will eventually learn their escape habits and then do crazy long combos and look like mango. Which is a good thing obv. Don't avoid their attack, do your OWN attack to hit them first and if you miss do ANOTHER attack to catch their next move. When you hit their shield THEY are in bad position. it limits their options and you can keep up the pressure. Keeping up the pressure is what you should try to think of to maintain this playstyle/mentality. also think one step ahead (if this attack hits/misses, what do i do after). This playstyle is not, "Go all out and go crazy and super saiyan just power through them," it's just Calculated Aggression. You always have the initiative, you control the match, you have the upper hand, but you're not just going nuts like dumb technical ppl who play against humans the way they play against lvl 1 cpus.

Obviously this takes a LOT of good prediction and reaction and everything so it will take time (it took me 3 years to realize this simple fact already) but when you get it, it's awesome. I'm still refining this so hopefully it becomes more ingrained into my system cause i'm so used to reverting to camping when i'm in a tight spot. Also if you're playing aggressive and they are camping, but they are better than you, they will win. This isn't an automatic fix-all to let you be mango all of a sudden, it's the correct way to play but if someone's out-smarting you, you will still lose. Like think about it this way, Peach fair's your shield and jabs twice. She's being the aggressor (controlling the match, putting pressure on you), but if she jabs twice every time, the defender will grab/upB/shine/dair/whatever out of shield after the jabs and win that exchange. So you still have to read well. Find out what they are punishing, and figure out how to counter it. That's basically all of melee right there but yeah this should get you on the right track to being better.

So far I think you need a lot of experience to be able to pull this off quickly, for most people this should be very hard to do correctly. But yeah I only learned this last night so we'll understand it more as we go along. For example there may be a specific matchup where it is better to camp who knows. I love smash epiphanies.. it means you can get better! I know half of you will be like, "No duh dave.. way to be a noob." Yeah.. can't really say anything about that lol. I can probably still beat you with my inferior style so w/e. Plus now i will get even better and you're stuck at your level lol.

not just throwing out moves is good, because lag is when you will get punished, but camping and blocking approaches is good too. thats what hugo does. i wish marth had more, like in blazblue i can spam hella projectiles to block and counterhit approaches. with marth i can only do stuff like auto fair, wd back or auto nair in place. but i want to be rushed down so those are fine for me. as a defensive player, not every hit should have 100% accuracy. you should only try to have 100% not getting punished for your moves while either keeping them out or getting them into combo. which isnt really the same as dont get hit. A good quote i read for SF is something along the lines of 'no one can stop you from walking forward without taking a risk' but to me that means 'every time someone walks forward, they are also taking a risk.

Remember, the best defense is a good offense! If you're pressuring them, there's no chance of you ever getting hit cause they can't attack while they're shielding or in hitstun! They can attack out of shield after your move is done.. but not while the move is still going. K anyway you get the point

"To learn, you must love discipline; it is stupid to hate correction." - proverbs 12:1
^ prolly talking about noobs johning in melee. "I can't do ANYTHING"

if you are a rushdown at heart, good for you. but if you are a zoner at heart, dont give up on it too much. dont let people give you a hard time for 'camping is gay.' brandon got timed out by a peach on dreamland at pats house. that **** was beautiful. melee is a really offensive game, but camping still exists.

idk

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Some black samus main who mained blacke samus (friend of Ekoli, deep *** voice) - 2 - 0'd him

I'll never get over how deep his voice is.

And dang, there's a lot of knowledge on this page lol

 

[Lovage]

i'm assuming you meant attack on an opponent because if not i agree with fly, many poeple use arieals insted of wiggling out of attacks

like with me i don't try to hit with every turnip, some are just meant to be annoying/force my oppontent to react, i'm sure fly uses ice blocks/blizzard in the same way

sometimes i throw out random arieals just cause i can, i mean since i have the ablitity to do an attack and have the same lag when not doing an attack why not

and what about falco's who are auto cancelling bairs? they are used to keep me just out of range/to hit me if i do decide to come to close

*insert many other examples*

i'm assuming you were accounting for these things but the way you said it was a little ambiguous

as a fastfaller, i've experienced very specific times where i have enough time to wiggle out of hitstun before i hit the ground, but it's not worth it to get an attack off. one time me and kira both traded hits and we were both gonna tech. but i wiggled out just barely before i hit the ground and had time to run under him and usmashed before he hit the ground.

it's one of those things you can only start feeling when you get a good sense of all the hitstuns at every percent for your character for lots of moves. then you realize certain specific times where wiggling out is better than doing an attack.

good post brendan

 

[chiZZLeSD]

Remember, the best defense is a good offense!

I think the whole post is pretty solid,but I agree with this saying or cliche or whatever whole-heartedly.offense is def the best defense.its way easier to come up with a problem for your your opponent (by attacking) than to come up with answers to everyone else's shiz.mathematically speaking,since everyones playing style is different,thats kind of impossible anyway haha

edit: i posted this without reading TGL's post,and he brings up some good points too.everything i said was just my personal philosophy on offense vs defense so yeah,not tryna diss anyone haha

ps: i'm off this friday!jdm, if youre having something please allow me a spot.its been too long since i've played up in irvine

 

[ComboFest]

You wiggle out with the c-stick right or have i been doing it wrong...

 

[chiZZLeSD]

You wiggle out with the c-stick right or have i been doing it wrong...

its the control stick dawg haha.or at least im pretty sure.thats what i use.i dont even know if its possible with the c-stick

 

[-Rei-]

i use the control stick

c-stick is for smash di as you're getting hit of course

 

[DJMirror]

do you guys wiggle up and down or left and right? does it matter which way you wiggle out? i never try this before so i'll give it a shot asap

 

[-Rei-]

i do left and right

i used to put my palm on the stick move it at random really fast lol

zhu laughed when he saw me do this

 

[The Greater Leon]

i just dont want any young and impressionable campers wasting their time trying to play the wrong way!

4:20~

 

[JDM]

1: JDM
2: Charles
3: Incronaut (Tri Wing)
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10:
11:
12:

Post if you haven't been to my house in a while and i'll give you a spot.

 

[Kira-]

Fly - Well I guess they're all the same if you assume that you predict correctly but I don't want people to just be throwing out attacks simply because they're safe. That's not what gets you initiative in Melee and it is definitely advantageous to have the initiative. I know The King has said this before, "Play like your opponent is scared of you, not the other way around." That's basically what I'm saying. So yes, "apply pressure whenever possible" is pretty true.

What other purposes could throwing out attacks have? I already covered baiting.. I really don't see what else there is. Wiggling out is somewhat of a different situation... in that case that Lovage provided he supposedly could have Nair'd to get out and then ran over to upsmash me and it would've been the same thing. That was another purpose but that's not really what this epiphany is talking about.

Also I think the nature of your character doesn't allow you to be a very effective aggressor.

like with me i don't try to hit with every turnip, some are just meant to be annoying/force my oppontent to react, i'm sure fly uses ice blocks/blizzard in the same way

sometimes i throw out random arieals just cause i can, i mean since i have the ablitity to do an attack and have the same lag when not doing an attack why not

and what about falco's who are auto cancelling bairs? they are used to keep me just out of range/to hit me if i do decide to come to close

Well, according to my theory, you wouldn't be optimizing your play if you were just throwing turnips just for the heck of it. Throwing out random aerials also isn't ideal, even if they are safe. It somewhat limits your movement (Cactuar has said something along the lines of, Doing moves leaves you open, aka you aren't open if you aren't doing any attacks) but really it's just a waste when you could be doing a move that's hitting them instead.

Falco's auto-cancelling bairs JUST for the heck of it is a waste too. Obviously they should only do it in cases where they think the attack will connect, cause otherwise you can just wd back and get out easily and then the bair accomplishes nothing.





Brendan that was a really good post, I agree with pretty much everything you said lol. In that matchup a lot of Marths do play that way but you still have to be careful to not just be throwing out moves, even if they're autocancel nairs. That allows them to gain the initiative pretty easily, even if they can't directly punish you for it. I think you're completely right about certain characters being exceptions or being able to win with different playstyles; I think I'm realizing that some characters have a much tougher time trying to play that way and it wouldn't be wise to do that with all characters.

Yesterday I was using Puff a lot when I realized this, so maybe Puff is just a really good character for attacking/approaching. I've often found it much easier to approach with, say, Falco (of course) compared to Sheik. Yeah but if definitely makes Melee WAYYY more fun, it was awesome playing Puff yesterday. Also it was in teams.. Puff is 10x easier in teams so that probably had something to do with it too but either way I leveled up so whatever I figured out worked really well.

 

[GSUB]

meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[kirbyraeg]

I want to go :D

never mind i can't... D:

 

[DJMirror]

JDM I might go because My coworker want extra hours haha

 

[ComboFest]

I'll go
Get Kangix this time. lol

 

[Adam M!]

lol @ kira.

gsub you still have a heavy noob mindset

 

[MacD]

as a fastfaller, i've experienced very specific times where i have enough time to wiggle out of hitstun before i hit the ground, but it's not worth it to get an attack off. one time me and kira both traded hits and we were both gonna tech. but i wiggled out just barely before i hit the ground and had time to run under him and usmashed before he hit the ground.

i meant more so when i'm flying off the stage and trying to come back

do you guys wiggle up and down or left and right? does it matter which way you wiggle out? i never try this before so i'll give it a shot asap

We were talking about wiggling out of hitstun. If you use up, you'll use your jump, but now that i am thinking about it, in theory you can semi circle left-down-right back in forth instead of just doing left-right. And if you don't have your jump you could just make a full circle... but this is all in theory since i have never heard of that and just thought about it now.

When you are wiggling out of a grab, c-stick does nothing to help you get out. Only mashing buttons and the control stick will get you out.

I forgot what the other thing I wanted to respond to was, I think it had to do with turnips. I didn't mean that i just throw them out there like whatever, but i throw them out there to get a reaction from my opponent i guess. Whether it be shield, move, catch it etc. Like in my set with taj i eventually started throwing them and running into him cause he was just going to just drop them right away.

EDIT: it was about falco's bairs. Idk, when i'm at the edge of stage, especially FD, if they are short hopping bairs, i can't challenge him, and i can't jump over him, but they keep moving towards me to hit me... maybe it's just i suck and don't really know how to get around it when i have no where to run.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Fly - Well I guess they're all the same if you assume that you predict correctly but I don't want people to just be throwing out attacks simply because they're safe. That's not what gets you initiative in Melee and it is definitely advantageous to have the initiative. I know The King has said this before, "Play like your opponent is scared of you, not the other way around." That's basically what I'm saying. So yes, "apply pressure whenever possible" is pretty true.

I said nothing about throwing out attacks just because they're safe. And no, the last claim isn't true in general. For example, if you're doing Sheik vs. Peach on Dreamland, you have a solid stock lead, and there's only 90 seconds left, it's not in your best interest to actively pressure Peach. Another example is that with ICs vs. any floaty on Corneria, it's generally in the ICs' best interest to run away most of the time.

What other purposes could throwing out attacks have? I already covered baiting.. I really don't see what else there is. Wiggling out is somewhat of a different situation... in that case that Lovage provided he supposedly could have Nair'd to get out and then ran over to upsmash me and it would've been the same thing. That was another purpose but that's not really what this epiphany is talking about.

Also I think the nature of your character doesn't allow you to be a very effective aggressor.

Baiting is a perfect example of accomplishing something with an attack that doesn't hit and was never meant to. I don't see a need to provide any other examples.

The fact that my character (a perfectly viable one, if that is at all relevant) doesn't have a great approach in a lot of match-ups and is often dependent on baiting mistakes from the opponent is another example of why some of your claims aren't true in general.

 

[Lovage]

to clear up misconceptions some ppl probably have


wiggling does nothing to get you "out of hitstun"


your hitstun will be the same no matter what you do, all wiggling does it break you out of tumble as soon as possible. you don't even have to wiggle, all you need to do is right before you get out of hitstun, tab back and forth. the only reason people wiggle fast is so they have a better chance of getting out of tumble on the 1st possible frame.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

@anthony: Me and sig

Though I won't arrive till after 5 because I have a dentist appointment =(

 

[Lovage]

lol wow

yea gsub is still a huge noob

 

[The Greater Leon]

i think all of us have a fair grasp of not just doing stuff over and over, including 'mindgames' and mixing it up.
reading some posts makes me feel like youre trying to argue this point.

but yeah dave just throwing out moves sucks balls, cuz then you'll just get punished for either being predictable (esp in games where there are good counter moves, or even counter supers X_X) or leaving yourself open.

but ill go more in depth for funsies. falco can be a combo beast, or all you can do is run and laser and hit them once to kill, or a mixture of both. is there a 'best'? probably the latter,

Spoiler

of three options!!!

but if you are winning, does it matter?

extreme rushdown is the hardest because you have to play perfectly and make a lot of calculated risks. but it pays off when your opponent gets flustered and then you can get away with more stupid stuff. e.g. alex valle <3<3<3

 

[Kira-]

Guys Cameron didn't even say anything pretentious in that post. I mean I don't think it's that funny anymore, he's not a mio

Anyway Brendan yeah my bad for pounding that "switching it up" thing into everyone's heads. But I think rushdown in MELEE is much easier because if you do it right, they're in a bad position (aka their options are more limited) and it makes it easier to capitalize.

Fly, timing people out doesn't happen very often and I covered baiting already. Also I did mention that there may be matchups where it's not advantageous to always pressure. And what I meant by "true" was basically that that's what I was trying to say, not necessarily that it's correct, my bad for the sloppy description.

So yes, there ARE times your moves don't need to hit them but overall it's still a good thing to have in mind, don't you think? There are some exceptions, but overall it's better to have this mindset than the other.

McCain, you can float backwards no? Auto-cancel bairs hit early, you could jump out, float back, go on the platform, and wavedash forward (then shieldgrab the 2nd bair, nair oos the 2nd bair, or jab dsmash without shielding)

Oscar that was actually really helpful. I knew it didn't get you out of hitstun faster but I didn't know you only had to move it once.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Fly, timing people out doesn't happen very often and I covered baiting already. Also I did mention that there may be matchups where it's not advantageous to always pressure. And what I meant by "true" was basically that that's what I was trying to say, not necessarily that it's correct, my bad for the sloppy description.

I'm fine with this revision. I only brought up baiting again because you had earlier stated one should try to land every attack, even though you had already given an example of a situation in which it's fine to miss. I don't think there's much here we actually disagree on, then.

So yes, there ARE times your moves don't need to hit them but overall it's still a good thing to have in mind, don't you think? There are some exceptions, but overall it's better to have this mindset than the other.

I don't understand what exactly the dichotomy of mindsets you're describing here is supposed to be. Instead of thinking something like "I should try to hit with all of my attacks," I would suggest thinking "I should always aim to accomplish something with my attacks."

 

[Squidster]

hey kira

can you give me a ride to / from stab's from uci?

Zhu is apparently leaving early from the tournament. If anything i can probably get a ride from zhu to get there but would need a ride back.

edit: just saw your post in the other thread.... whoops... lol

 

[Incronaut]

wow. ok anthony ill be there from 3-630ish...

aaaaand wouldnt the best oversimplification be "make them lose 4-stocks before you do" ? but i guess that doesnt help in gameplay haha :D

also, going back to what characters are "supposed" to do (again, im oversimplifying) is a fox supposed to apply pressure to a falco? cause i always saw camping as a nonviable option since falco can just laser own you (unless you go from platform to platform but that only works so much imo)

im really bad at that matchup -.-