The 8-Bit Ultimatum - A Mario Bros. Overview

[Grim Tuesday]

Quiet you, it deserves testing :3

MOAR TESTING

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't care if it deserves more testing. You're merely giving credit to those idiots who claim "next they'll want Mario Bros". It's not worthwhile. We already seem to live in our own theorycraft bubble; this is not helping. Plus you still didn't kill AA/My arguments against the stage.

Do something like Skyworld, or Pipes, or SOMETHING. Look at Raziek's thread, find a "debatable" stage that still needs data, do that. But don't ****ing do Mario Bros.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I couldn't care less, I barely even play this game xD

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I couldn't care less, I barely even play this game xD

I'm done here.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm done here.

Since when has frequency of playing ever had an effect on someone's arguments?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I questioned your credibility initially even with your other threads. Your previous posts and that one just enforced it to certainty.

Your saying you don't care what others think while you barely play this game.

I hate using something like ad hominem, but in this case it's legitimate when I'm questioning.

1.) Your motives
2.) Your credibility

after making that comment.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I questioned your credibility initially even with your other threads. Your previous posts and that one just enforced it to certainty.

Your saying you don't care what others think while you barely play this game.

I hate using something like ad hominem, but in this case it's legitimate when I'm questioning.

1.) Your motives
2.) Your credibility

after making that comment.

But why are you questioning my motives and credibility?

I just bring up things about this game competitively and see what people think... I have no idea what you are trying to gain.

Also infrequency of play =/= lack of knowledge/skill/etc...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Your comment about, "I couldn't care less, I barely even play this game xD." made me question it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Y'know, if any other person other than the one that wrote the OP would've said that, the thread wouldn't seem poitnless....

Right now, you just said, "let's do this! I don't even play the game, but you should try it!", and made the whole discussion worthless....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My arguments should not be judged by me as a person.

No, I don't play this game often, and I don't really like it.

But I DO play it, I HAVE tested this stage with people who DO play this game often, and I AM a fairly decent player.

 

[-LzR-]

Man after all the trouble you ****ed up yourself. Good luck crawling back now.

 

[UberMario]

Since when has frequency of playing ever had an effect on someone's arguments?

When more game time equates to more stage experience?

 

[Raziek]

I'll say what I've said before.

The liberal stagelist theory must be combined with PRAGMATISM to make any progress.

That's why I'm suggesting people work on stages actually worth researching. Skyworld, Green Hill, Onett, more specifically, even borderline stuff that is legal in some places, but not others: Mansion, Pirate Ship, Distant Planet, PTAD, Pipes.

Ironically, BPC saying this makes the stage movement ridiculous is absolutely right. (Since he often does so himself) I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. Reason is all well and good, but if you cannot practically convince the people, you are WASTING YOUR TIME.

 

[Alphicans]

Just so you know your argument for 1 and 5 contradict eachother.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just so you know your argument for 1 and 5 contradict eachother.

No they don't.

1 is assuming that the opponent is Circle Camping and not confronting you, thus giving ample time to set-up hazards strategically and actually get them in the way of your opponent's path. Also note that they can be avoided after being set-up like this if the cirlce camper, stops circle camping.

@Everyone who says this is pointless
I don't care, you can't stop me from arguing this

 

[Raziek]

Just saying, if you're wasting time arguing this stuff when you barely play this game..... why would you sabotage the cause just for the sake of argument?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

lol

Do you seriously think arguing for this stage is "sabotaging the cause" for a liberal stage list? Hardly.

All that is going to change is idiots (who's opinions don't matter anyway) are now going to say "Lol, these guys (Read: One person) argue for Mario Bros. So that somehow makes all of their other arguments invalid."

 

[Raziek]

l
All that is going to change is idiots (who's opinions don't matter anyway) are now going to say "Lol, these guys (Read: One person) argue for Mario Bros. So that somehow makes all of their other arguments invalid."

Yes, this is exactly the problem.

EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Groupthink can and will **** us over when it comes to stuff like this.

Edit: oh, and some of those people are the ones in charge of the stagelists now.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah. Please, can we close this thread? I honestly think it's a bad attempt at a troll by Fandango. Either way, it's NOT GOOD and it's NOT HELPING ANYONE.

 

[Raziek]

I don't think it deserves to be closed. I think it's an excellent, informative thread, that provides exactly what it claims to: A Mario Bros. Overview.

It acquaints you with proper understanding of the stage and its mechanics, and in that, it has value.

What needs to stop, is acting like this stage has any place in mainstream competitive play.

We all acknowledge this stage can be competitive in and of itself. It will, however, NEVER see inclusion on any stagelist, by an TO who even remotely cares about their scene.

This is coming from someone who almost legalized Skyworld.

Entertaining, riveting debate, but please, stop the farce of acting like this stage belongs in tournament. You only give the rest of us a bad name, simply because we post in this forum.

No joke, if people start spreading this around, you know what the label will be?

"Look at this ridiculous post by one of the "Stage Rage" gang.", and people will use it as an attempt to discredit the arguments of reasonably sane individuals who actually play this game fairly often, like myself, Ripple, SuSa, and BPC if he's still going to tournaments, but his credibility is already shot.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

hahahah

this stage is perfectly legitimate

the hazards can be avoided and everything!

totally not a bull**** stage

**** those guys who just want FD FD FD! no items, fox only! FDFDFDFD omg

 

[Raziek]

hahahah

this stage is perfectly legitimate

the hazards can be avoided and everything!

totally not a bull**** stage

**** those guys who just want FD FD FD! no items, fox only! FDFDFDFD omg

I don't know if you're just humoring the post I just made, or if you're serious, but either way, you're proving my point. xD

 

[-LzR-]

I playtested this stage. It's competitive and balanced, but should not be legal.

Anyways, it's so ****ing fun!

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I was given a 2 point infraction for my above post by Red Ryu. Why?

I am perfectly within my rights to advocate for the legalization of these stages, yet Red Ryu thinks we shouldn't be able to express our demands!

I will not be silenced! Legalize Mario. Bros!

Red Ryu, you're going down!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think it deserves to be closed. I think it's an excellent, informative thread, that provides exactly what it claims to: A Mario Bros. Overview.

It acquaints you with proper understanding of the stage and its mechanics, and in that, it has value.

What needs to stop, is acting like this stage has any place in mainstream competitive play.

We all acknowledge this stage can be competitive in and of itself. It will, however, NEVER see inclusion on any stagelist, by an TO who even remotely cares about their scene.

This is coming from someone who almost legalized Skyworld.

Entertaining, riveting debate, but please, stop the farce of acting like this stage belongs in tournament. You only give the rest of us a bad name, simply because we post in this forum.

No joke, if people start spreading this around, you know what the label will be?

"Look at this ridiculous post by one of the "Stage Rage" gang.", and people will use it as an attempt to discredit the arguments of reasonably sane individuals who actually play this game fairly often, like myself, Ripple, SuSa, and BPC if he's still going to tournaments, but his credibility is already shot.

I agree with this.

Really I understand if people want to try and make things legal and help people understand the stages, but lets be honest. If your in a conservative region or a liberal one and change one to favoring views of the other, your region is going to say, wtf, to you and seriously question you ability as a TO, take baby steps in both directions if you go one way or another. Drastic changes or ones that your community is completely against is not adviced if you want people to be coming back.

I was given a 2 point infraction for my above post by Red Ryu. Why?

I am perfectly within my rights to advocate for the legalization of these stages, yet Red Ryu thinks we shouldn't be able to express our demands!

I will not be silenced! Legalize Mario. Bros!

Red Ryu, you're going down!

Your post was a troll attempt.

take it to PM's or forum support if you have a problem, or want to discuss why it isn't one.

 

[Alphicans]

No they don't.

1 is assuming that the opponent is Circle Camping and not confronting you, thus giving ample time to set-up hazards strategically and actually get them in the way of your opponent's path. Also note that they can be avoided after being set-up like this if the cirlce camper, stops circle camping.

@Everyone who says this is pointless
I don't care, you can't stop me from arguing this

Ideal play means that items will never get in your way because you can pick them up, PS, dodge them etc... Manipulating items isn't the hardest thing to do in the game, and it is perfectly reasonable to assume that someone will want to master all aspects of item control IF this stage were to become legal, or even if they want to learn how to **** diddy.

 

[T-block]

Talking about ideal play as anything other than a fun thought experiment is silly. A game where nobody gets hit because they properly react to everything against done against them isn't relevant. On the other hand, if you're implying that "mastering" item use is essential to circle camping on this stage, aren't you admitting that this stage can be competitive despite the existence of a loop?

 

[Alphicans]

No. I am talking here that ideal play is quite possible at human level. Mastering item control on this stage is an easy enough task and it leads to circle camping which is a good criteria for banning a stage.

Pretty much my point here is that saying ideal play does not always mean it should be neglected. There are certain aspects to the game where ideal play is quite attainable.

 

[T-block]

So I guess you're saying it is still trivial to obtain the item mastery required to run indefinitely? Circle camping is not really bannable if it now requires skill to run away...

 

[Alphicans]

It comes down to how you look at it I suppose. To me, if it still leads to degnerative play, then I don't think it should be legal even if it takes an incredible amount of skill.

 

[T-block]

Hurray for more people tossing out the word "degenerative" with no thought.

What does it mean for play to be degenerate then?

 

[Alphicans]

When one player is promised a win after getting one hit in by running around and picking up items with the press of a button.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I guess normal gameplay is degenerate then, because players are promised a win after getting one hit and running around pressing a few buttons.

 

[Alphicans]

What? No because they can lose the lead and they have to approach later. So it's more of a they get the first hit, run away and press a few buttons and then maybe they'll get hit back a couple of times, and they'll have to chase the other person as they run away and press a few buttons. Mario bros allows you to skip the whole second factor.

 

[-LzR-]

This stage isn't degenerate. I played it with my friend. Diddy Kong against Rob, both great item abusers.
The matches where fun and doing all kinds of traps with the stuff there was fun. It is competitive, but only good for a side event as it's overcentralizing.

 

[T-block]

But if it "takes an incredible amount of skill" to be promised a win, is it really degenerate?

 

[Alphicans]

It still simplifies the game to the point where it's using one strategy, so yes, I would say it is still degnerate gameplay.

 

[-LzR-]

The thing is, it takes skill, but that is not the skill we as a community have decided to test. We are not testing who is the best at throwing dem stuff around the place. We are testing other kinds of skill.
The stage is totally different FROM EVERY SINGLE STAGE in the whole smash history. This must be the only one where you don't fight your opponent, in this one, you just try your best to control the stage and overwhelm your opponent.

 

[T-block]

On Smashville, if player A lands a hit on player B, the game could now be simplified to one simple strategy: Player A tries not to get hit. If he succeeds, he is promised the win. It does take an incredible amount of skill for Player A to avoid being hit though. How degenerate?

 

[Alphicans]

I don't think it's possible to avoid conflict on smashville if the player trying to catch the other knows what they're doing. Even snake can catch GaW on battlefield if he sets it up right.