The 8-Bit Ultimatum - A Mario Bros. Overview

[Grim Tuesday]

Reflectors aren't overpowered considering they generally have quite a bit of end lag...which can be punished with any regular move.
Again, if you're only using the turtles/crabs you won't do as well as with 'regular' fighting.

Exactly.
1. Pick up Hazard.
2. Throw hazard when opponent is not ready/bait reflector.
3. If they put up reflector, wait for end lag, then throw.
4. ????
5. PROFIT!

 

[Ghostbone]

Also you can use an aerial while holding it as well :D

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Erm...

I don't know how you intend to do that without throwing the hazard, Ghostbone... >_>

 

[Ghostbone]

z-drop the turtle/crab, instantly do an aerial and you'll catch it while doing the aerial.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

z-drop the turtle/crab, instantly do an aerial and you'll catch it while doing the aerial.

Yeah, I realised that as soon as I saw the little message that said "Ghostbone has replied" xD

 

[Dre89]

The stage could possibly be competitive in it's own right, but it's too much of a deviation from the core set of skills required on other stages to be in the same stagelist.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You see, the difference is you reached a conclusion that not only differs from mine but a lot of the community.

While your saying you can safely reach that conclusion, that conclusion is completely different from everyone else's, not that it is necessarily a bad thing. Your right that we should test and have reasoning why a stage should be removed, the difference is though is that people have actually tested here and reached a pretty solid conclusion that game play is about the hazards and circle camping is an issue even with the hazards.

I am using the community/majority thing again, but when we're talking about testing it does matter.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The stage could possibly be competitive in it's own right, but it's too much of a deviation from the core set of skills required on other stages to be in the same stagelist.

I disagree.

You see, the difference is you reached a conclusion that not only differs from mine but a lot of the community.

While your saying you can safely reach that conclusion, that conclusion is completely different from everyone else's, not that it is necessarily a bad thing. Your right that we should test and have reasoning why a stage should be removed, the difference is though is that people have actually tested here and reached a pretty solid conclusion that game play is about the hazards and circle camping is an issue even with the hazards.

I am using the community/majority thing again, but when we're talking about testing it does matter.

I am highly doubting how many people have "tested" this stage properly. As far as I know, I'm the first one to work out the timing mechanics on the stage. So yeah, I'm sure people have played on it many times before, but never with competitive play in mind.

And I believe we work under a "legal until proven broken" system. If you think this stage deserves to be banned, POST A VIDEO OF YOU BREAKING IT.

EDIT: And not everyone disagrees with my opinion. Ghostbone and Apollo, who I have both played numerous times on the stage. Seem to be willing to give it a try at least.

 

[napZzz]

I cant believe you would actually try to write a thread about calling this stage legit. Especially the contents of it...-__-

I dont see why I should bother posting because it seems whenever I disagree with something like this people just come to the conclusion that I'm disagreeing for no reason and just to hate/troll

 

[Life]

Mario Bros lends itself well to side-tournaments methinks, though I don't think people will react well if it was introduced suddenly into a main tournament.

Once again gonna quote this.

Nap: Ironic post is ironic.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I cant believe you would actually try to write a thread about calling this stage legit. Especially the contents of it...-__-

I dont see why I should bother posting because it seems whenever I disagree with something like this people just come to the conclusion that I'm disagreeing for no reason and just to hate/troll

Counterpoint OP with solid criteria (not randomly say "lolz staeg iz stoopid"), write something worth-reading, and your opinion might stand more chance to be taken serious.

That's what Grim did with his OP trying oppose a common opinion.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I cant believe you would actually try to write a thread about calling this stage legit. Especially the contents of it...-__-

I dont see why I should bother posting because it seems whenever I disagree with something like this people just come to the conclusion that I'm disagreeing for no reason and just to hate/troll

...

Counterpoint OP with solid criteria (not randomly say "lolz staeg iz stoopid"), write something worth-reading, and your opinion might stand more chance to be taken serious.

That's what Grim did with his OP trying oppose a common opinion.

^This^.

Once again gonna quote this.

Nap: Ironic post is ironic.

We don't ban stages based on if the community will accept them. Our rule-set should only have 1 goal in mind: Be as competitive as possible. I'm pretty sure BPC wrote a thread about this or something.

 

[-LzR-]

Another problem exists too. If I make this legal suddenly, no one is going to take me seriously anymore...

 

[Browny]

How about the only question that matters;

Would YOU risk a considerable sum of money by choosing to play this stage? If a set was tied 1-1 and it was your counterpick and you truly believed you were better than your opponent, would you honestly choose this stage and accept whatever result that occurs, the result of a fair fight?

You cant expect people to spend time learning this stage when it is so vastly different from normal. Someone with extensive practice here could potentially win WITHOUT EVER HITTING THEIR OPPONENT directly by careful circle camping and item use. The argument of 'good players should adapt and learn all aspects of competitive play, not just the few they choose' is fine but the line MUST be drawn somewhere if we are to keep this game as close to a fair fight as possible. It was drawn past playing on neutrals to allow counterpicking stages and characters to allow for the all aspects part but thats it.

Are you going to be the one who shifts the line to allowing this stage? If so, where does it end?

This idea is just too different imo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Another problem exists too. If I make this legal suddenly, no one is going to take me seriously anymore...

Don't do it suddenly then... Take it slow. Introduce people to the stage individually and show them it isn't that bad.

How about the only question that matters;

Would YOU risk a considerable sum of money by choosing to play this stage? If a set was tied 1-1 and it was your counterpick and you truly believed you were better than your opponent, would you honestly choose this stage and accept whatever result that occurs, the result of a fair fight?

You cant expect people to spend time learning this stage when it is so vastly different from normal. someone with extensive practice here could potentially win WITHOUT EVER HITTING THEIR OPPONENT by careful circle camping and item use. The argument of 'good players should adapt and learn all aspects of competitive play, not just the few they choose' is fine but the line MUST be drawn somewhere if we are to keep this game as close to a fair fight as possible. It was drawn past playing on neutrals to allow counterpicking stages and characters to allow for the all aspects part but thats it.

Are you going to be the one who shifts the line to allowing this stage? If so, where does it end?

This idea is just too different imo.

I don't support this stage with our current counter-picking system in place, or any similar systems that give a ridiculous advantage to a player for no reason.

I disagree with the "it's too different" argument, do you have evidence to show that it tests an entirely different set of skills than every other stage? If not, then this stage should be legal until someone does.

 

[-LzR-]

Grim, please explain better how this stage can't be circlecamped. I could easily jump over the **** you throw at me while I run away.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grim, please explain better how this stage can't be circlecamped. I could easily jump over the **** you throw at me while I run away.

I'll edit this post with a diagram in a moment.

EDIT:

This by no means works for every character, but there are many MUs which can get camped anyway (Wario vs. Lucario, Ganon vs. pretty much everyone, etc...)

You could also place another hazard somewhere as well, but that is about all you need as most characters.

Preferably upgrade the hazards for extra speed, priority, etc... (Fox Illusion is stopped by every hazard iirc).

If you need extra time, you can place the hazards so they walk down to the correct area.

Pretty much all of the high tiers have a method of stopping it, which is all that really matters.
Meta Knight has... Well, he's Meta Knight xD
Snake has Nades, C4 and Mines.
Diddy has Nanas.
Wario has aerial speed.
Falco has lasers.
Dedede has Waddle Dees (I know...).

Marth might have a bit of a problem... But eh. He can probably stop it with persistence.

You can also wait for the flame to interrupt the circle if you want to be extra cautious, but I don't recommend it.

EDIT2: Alternate Method:

The bottom hazard could theoretically be on either side.

By "camp POW block" I mean de-activating the top hazard until you need it. As it is difficult to control from that position.

-----------------------

Also note that the cramped space makes it more difficult to avoid hazards than you'd first expect, and that many players can shark through the platforms to aid the afore-mentioned strats.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That doesn't work against Wario/Jigglypuff/Sonic/Fox.

All four can just react how how you move and avoid the hazards as such. If they stay under where the pow block is or just hit the hazards on the lower portion so they can pick it up, that set-up stops working when they see the direction you must dedicate yourself to catch them from the top.

If you go to the left they go to the right and vice versa.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That doesn't work against Wario/Jigglypuff/Sonic/Fox.

All four can just react how how you move and avoid the hazards as such. If they stay under where the pow block is or just hit the hazards so they can pick it up, that set-up stops working.

I possibly agree with Jigglypuff and Wario, but not Sonic and Fox.

Again, if you want to show how broken this strat is, you need to, you know, literally show it.

Until then it'll just be my word against yours.

I'll say this though: Hitting the hazards to pick them up is difficult with how dangerous they are, and their priority.

If they stay under where the POW block is, they aren't circle camping.

 

[Browny]

so um... if it wasnt to be used on the current CP system, how would this stage ever be played?

what in like a Bo9 most stages legal, set on random kind of scenario?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

so um... if it wasnt to be used on the current CP system, how would this stage ever be played?

what in like a Bo9 most stages legal, set on random kind of scenario?

It may not ever be played, but that isn't a reason to ban it.

I personally support a fast version of stage striking that forces diversity without sacrificing balance (there are multiple methods of doing this, you can use your imagination).

Either that, or our current system with a few stages like PS2, SV, Delfino, etc... legal.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I possibly agree with Jigglypuff and Wario, but not Sonic and Fox.

Again, if you want to show how broken this strat is, you need to, you know, literally show it.

Until then it'll just be my word against yours.

I'll say this though: Hitting the hazards to pick them up is difficult with how dangerous they are, and their priority.

If they stay under where the POW block is, they aren't circle camping.

Sometimes data can speak for itself, you don't need a video to prove that Sonic can circle camp on Temple because his running speed is the best in the game, from there you can pretty much say he can run circles around the cast there. There is a clear circle on this stage.

With hitting the hazards, it's difficult, but high levels of play. People will learn the spacing and do it if it lets them win.

I beleive in everything should be legal to a point. If a stage is a grey area or broken, this stage, it shouldn't be legal at a national level where people are spending a lot of time and money to get out to it with a large sum of money on the line. We can't have stages that people are saying well this could be an issue and then later the stage breaks the tournament. If the stage is questionable and the community is largely against it, it shouldn't be legal on a national ruleset which is suppose to be an agreed upon ruleset for the nation.

Also it's more than your word against the mine, people who are against this stage who posted, the BBR, every region, etc. It's not just me vs you, it's the communities conclusion by testing it themselves against yours.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

As I said before (you didn't respond to that, maybe you missed it), I highly doubt anyone else has properly tested this stage other than myself. I have not seen a single person other than -LzR- who has said "I will test" and come back to give feedback.

And it isn't everyone against me.
Look back through the thread and notice the number of people who have said "Good read, gotta give this a try". Compared to the number of people who came up with semi-legitimate arguments (no "lol this stage has circle and over-powered hazards and it's different plz ban" does not count as a semi-legitimate argument).

Unlike Temple, this stage's circle isn't as obvious.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can you prove that their testing is illegitimate any more than you can prove your is legitimate?

Also when I say community, I'm saying a very very large majority. No region has this stage legal.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Again: Who's testing? I haven't seen ANYONE say anything regarded to them testing it other than,
a) People saying they will test and never coming back.
b) -LzR-

Majority is not a valid argument here >_>

Every region also has a similar counter-picking system, even though it is anti-competitive. Why? Because everyone else does it and they are afraid of change. That also applies to Mario Bros, it isn't illegal because there has been some documented evidence against the stage, people just all went "That is a bad stage" and never looked at it twice.

 

[SuSa]

You camp POW block.

I camp behind a pipe.

You approach.

I start moving again.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

what is this i dont even, SuSa

Which Pipe are you referring to? There are 4 pipes on the stage.

Assuming you are talking about the top pipes, it can be stopped with clever hazard placement as far as I can tell. Except possibly against Wario and Jigglypuff. I'll have to test more for them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Again: Who's testing? I haven't seen ANYONE say anything regarded to them testing it other than,
a) People saying they will test and never coming back.
b) -LzR-

Majority is not a valid argument here >_>

Every region also has a similar counter-picking system, even though it is anti-competitive. Why? Because everyone else does it and they are afraid of change. That also applies to Mario Bros, it isn't illegal because there has been some documented evidence against the stage, people just all went "That is a bad stage" and never looked at it twice.

The BBR tested every stage and Pierce has stated he has played her before.

Majority is a valid argument when were talking about testing. If 99 people say one result from testing, and 1 person says another, which are people going to beleive?

 

[Browny]

I highly doubt the 'committee' actually judged this stage on its merits with unbiased testing lol. As oppose to 'this stage is stupid'.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The BBR tested every stage and Pierce has stated he has played her before.

Majority is a valid argument when were talking about testing. If 99 people say one result from testing, and 1 person says another, which are people going to beleive?

If the BBR tested, I'd love to hear what was discussed. I'll PM Pierce about it.

Except it isn't 99:1

It's more like 2:2 or 2:3 as far as I can see (until I see evidence that the BBR actually has tested it of course >_>, they ARE notorious for having slightly scrubby opinions).

 

[-LzR-]

Don't theorycraft obvious stuff that has been said since 08. I will test this stage when I can. I will possibly do moneymatches on it someone is willing to do it. After that I try to record some matches, put some analysis. Then we will see more about the stage. Grim has seen so much effort doing this thread that it can't be simply overlooked thought it seems funny how someone is pro Mario Bros.
I am usually very open for all kinds of stages. Thought this is unlikely to be legal in my touneys, if people accept it I will hold a side event where it's the only legal stage for more evidence to support or be against the stage. It's a fun stage anyways.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I actually don't expect it to turn out to be fair, I'm just disagreeing with everything to fuel discussion.

Looks like someone in my state has got a capture card, should hopefully get some of my own matches uploaded!

 

[Tesh]

How exactly does placing a hazard stop circle camping? Can't you just jump over the little creature or pick it up as you pass by?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How exactly does placing a hazard stop circle camping? Can't you just jump over the little creature or pick it up as you pass by?

It doesn't stop Circle Camping by itself, it makes it more difficult for the opponent.

They have to avoid a fast, high priority hazard that is going straight towards them, while in a cramped space, with you chasing after them while holding another hazard as an item. That's not even to mention a potential third and fourth hazard to place, the ability to shark through the platforms as most characters, the characters own attacks and the POW block.

EDIT: And in response to whoever said before that the POW block screws the placing up: Destroy the POW block before placing the hazards.

 

[-LzR-]

I just asked the local Diddy Kong to play with me ther as we are both good with items as I play Rob and he plays Diddy Kong. Then this whole mess with people started crying that don't make it legal or it will suck or something >_>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Educate them, I guess...

You're playing with scrubs I'm afraid.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I highly doubt the 'committee' actually judged this stage on its merits with unbiased testing lol. As oppose to 'this stage is stupid'.

For some yes, for others who have shown themselves to be whiling to test, I doubt it.

If the BBR tested, I'd love to hear what was discussed. I'll PM Pierce about it.

Except it isn't 99:1

It's more like 2:2 or 2:3 as far as I can see (until I see evidence that the BBR actually has tested it of course >_>, they ARE notorious for having slightly scrubby opinions).

If it's not 99:1, it a pretty large majority of people who tested it. When people do science they go with the most consistent result of which comes out from testing and try to interpret it.

Not everyone is saying, "Stage is dumb ban it" and even some people who simply say this actually have reasons for this even if they don't debate this.

And the BBR isn't notorious for having scrubby opinions, more so their credibility on certain issues, the stage list being a big one for stages they added, not ones they removed.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And the BBR isn't notorious for having scrubby opinions, more so their credibility on certain issues, the stage list being a big one for stages they added, not ones they removed.

Most of them are just top ranked people.
Why BBRers doesn't even post in these Stage Discussion Threads?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If it's not 99:1, it a pretty large majority of people who tested it. When people do science they go with the most consistent result of which comes out from testing and try to interpret it.

Not everyone is saying, "Stage is dumb ban it" and even some people who simply say this actually have reasons for this even if they don't debate this.

Dude.

Who are these people who have tested the stage?

Seriously.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Grim, just stop. You're making the whole liberal stage movement look ridiculous and giving our "enemies" more fuel against us. Mario bros will NEVER BE LEGAL. EVER. It's a waste of time to even argue about it. And even if you can't circle camp on it, it has other issues (as AA and I have pointed out)!