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The 8-Bit Ultimatum - A Mario Bros. Overview

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Grim Tuesday

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"Speaking frankly, this stage throws all the basic rules of Smash out the window!" - Masahiro Sakurai

--------------------------------------------------

This thread's purpose is to inform people about the mechanics and to clear up common misconceptions of the stage: Mario Bros.

For those who don't know which stage I am talking about (probably a few of you, considering the stage is universally banned and their are a plethora of banned Mario stages) here is a picture of the lay-out:


Some things to take note of:
  • The pipes are non-solid and do not directly affect the game.
  • Every opening along the sides of the stage are walk-off blast-zones, their is also an upper blast-zone. There is no lower blast-zone.
  • While you can't pass through the blue platforms, most upward attacks (with the exception of projectiles) can go through them (commonly known as 'Sharking'). If you jump into one of the platforms from below, it will cause any opponents or hazards directly above to perform a slight hop (flipping over the hazards in the process, more on that later).
  • The POW Block in the lower-center of the stage can be stood on like an ordinary platform. Jumping into or attacking this block will cause the same effect as jumping from below into a platform, only on a stage-wide scale. Hitting the POW block 3 times will cause it to disappear (it will re-appear exactly 30 seconds later).
  • The camera is fixed on a view of the whole stage.

--------------------------------------------------

Now then, onto the hazards. There are 3 different types of hazards on this stage (7 including sub-varieties). These hazards are Shellcreepers (Turtles), Sidesteppers (Crabs) and Fireballs.


A Shellcreeper on the left, and a Sidestepper on the right.

Shellcreepers:
  • Shellcreepers come in 3 varieties: Green Shellcreepers, Purple Shellcreepers and Red Shellcreepers.
  • Green Shellcreepers: Deal 11% damage and walk at a slow speed. They change into Purple Shellcreepers after being flipped. They deal a low amount of knockback, have low priority and high traction.
  • Purple Shellcreepers: Deal 13% damage and walk at a medium speed. They change into Red Shellcreepers after being flipped. They deal a medium amount of knockback, have medium priority and medium traction.
  • Red Shellcreepers: Deal 15% damage and walk at a fast speed. They do not change after being flipped. They deal a high amount of knockback, have high priority, and low traction.
  • Shellcreepers take 1 hit to be flipped.

Sidesteppers:
  • Sidesteppers also come in 3 varieties: Red Sidesteppers, Blue Sidesteppers and Pink Sidesteppers.
  • Red Sidesteppers: Deal 13% damage and walk at a medium speed. They change into Blue Sidesteppers after being flipped. They deal a medium amount of knockback.
  • Blue Sidesteppers: Deal 15% damage and walk at a fast speed. They change into Pink Sidesteppers after being flipped. They deal a high amount of knockback.
  • Pink Sidesteppers: Deal 17% damage and walk at a very fast speed. They do not change after being flipped. They deal a very high amount of knockback.
  • Sidesteppers take 2 hits to be flipped. A Sidestepper who has already been hit once will have an angrier facial expression that one that hasn't.

Shellcreepers & Sidesteppers:
  • You can pick up a flipped Shellcreeper/Sidestepper as an item. It will always deal 16% damage for a Normal Throw, and 18% for a Smash Throw (regardless of colour). They have the same traction/knockback/etc... as the stray ones, however.
  • A Shellcreeper/Sidestepper will change colour if it is flipped over and allowed to get back up by itself (a flipped Shellcreeper/Sidestepper will flip itself back over after 10 seconds of being knocked down. This 10 second time period is NOT reset by picking up the flipped hazard).
  • If a Shellcreeper/Sidestepper runs into another Shellcreeper/Sidestepper (flipped or un-flipped), or a player, it will change direction.
  • Shellcreepers/Sidesteppers always spawn from the pipes at the top of the screen, and exit through the pipes at the bottom. The bottom pipes warp Shellcreepers/Sidesteppers back to the top pipes. This means that standing behind any of the pipes will prevent a stray Shellcreeper from ever hitting you.
  • In-between the edge of the stage and the side blast-zones, there is a "warp-zone". Any Shellcreeper/Sidestepper that goes through this zone (except when thrown) will warp to the exact opposite warp-zone and continue moving. It is possible to stand in-between the warp-zone and blast-zone as most characters and thus be completely invulnerable to stray Shellcreepers/Sidesteppers (though this is very difficult).
  • There may only be a combined maximum of 4 Shellcreepers/Sidesteppers on screen at a time.
  • Shellcreepers/Sidesteppers will not spawn until 10 seconds after the match has started, they then appear in 10 second intervals.
  • If a Shellcreeper/Sidestepper is destroyed, another will take it's place almost immediately (within 5 seconds).

Fireballs:
  • Fireballs always appear in one of eight places (just above each of the platforms and the ground on the left side, and ditto for the right side).
  • Fireballs cannot be destroyed.
  • They deal 20% damage on contact and have scaling knockback (low at around 0%, medium at around 50% and high at around 100%).
  • There can only ever be one Fireball on screen at a time.
  • They materialize and dematerialize in about 1.5 seconds (Note that they are unable to damage players while appearing/disappearing).
  • After spawning, they travel in a wave-motion horizontally to the opposite spawn point, and then disappear.
  • The spawn point is about equal vertically with the wheel on the top pipes.
  • The time that Fireballs spawn appears to be entirely random.

--------------------------------------------------

In this section I'll be talking about legalization, which is one of the reasons I the main reason I made this thread in the first place.. This stage, as I have already mentioned, is banned universally. Some may say that this is proof about how bad the stage is competitively, but I disagree.

I believe that very few people (yes, including the BBR) have given this stage a fair chance, this section will hopefully explain to people why we should NEVER judge a book by it's cover, as I go over the most common arguments against this stage's legalization and refute them.

1. "The central platform allows for degenerate circle camping strategies".



This would be completely true, if not for the hazards. Through clever manipulation of Shellcreepers and Sidesteppers even a character with general poor mobility such as Peach will be able to catch up to and attack the circling player.

Also note that most characters with decent to good range can shark through the platforms.


2. "The walk-off sides allows for degenerate walk-off camping strategies/buffs and nerfs characters heavily depending on if they can/can be chain-grabbed".



Again, the hazards prevent this from being an issue. The stage layout and abundance of powerful, shield-poking projectiles make camping the side blast-zones more likely to get you killed than force an approach/time the opponent out.

Chain-grabs will almost always be interrupted by the hazards without the other player having to do anything, and in the very rare situations where there aren't any hazards to interrupt the chain-grab, the player can always carry a Shellcreeper/Sidestepper with them from another part of the stage when they want to approach and place it on the ground before-hand.


3. "The lack of a lower blast-zone is degenerate/buffs and nerfs characters heavily depending on their aerial/off-stage game".

Characters with great off-stage games don't have their KO'ing ability reduced as they can use the hazards instead. Characters with poor off-stage games won't live to stupid percents for the same reason.


4. "Certain characters [most commonly: Fox] are too powerful on this stage".

Quite the contrary, from my play-testing with a wide variety of players and characters, I can safely say that this is one of the most balanced stages for match-ups, if not the most balanced (note that I don't mean balanced in the sense that every match-up is closer to what it should be assuming no advantages from stages, I mean more balanced in the sense that every match-up is very close to 50:50).

I will tackle Fox specifically, as he is the most commonly brought up character when it comes to who is over-powered on this stage. I already covered above why Circle Stalling is not an issue on this stage, but many people believe that Fox's reflector changes this, as he can prevent any attempts to hit him with thrown hazards by using it.

This is not the case for a few reasons:​
a) Fox can only reflect THROWN hazards with his Reflector, walking ones will still hit him.
b) He can still be sharked.
c) Fox must remain stationary when using his Reflector.

By abusing these 3 facts, a player can very simply set-up the hazards to make avoiding them AND the player nigh impossible for the Fox player. If you believe that you can prove me wrong on this point, PM me and we can have a game over Wi-Fi.


5. "The hazards are random and too powerful".

As I showed above, the only random parts of the stage are:​
a) Which top pipe the Shellcreepers/Sidesteppers will come out of. Players are given enough warning to make this point moot.
b) Where and when the fireball will spawn. Again, players have enough time to react.
c) Whether Shellcreepers or Sidesteppers will appear from the pipes. They don't have enough differences when it comes down to it for this to matter.

The hazards are NOT too powerful unless you actually get hit by them. Which shouldn't happen unless your opponent out-played you. They can be air-dodged, spot-dodged, rolled past, perfect shielded, caught and attacked on reaction if you are paying enough attention (and if you do happen to get hit by one, you have multiple opportunities to tech in a lot of situations). Not to mention that you can place them yourself to get them out of the way if you so desire.

6. "The game is over-centralized around the hazards".

Yes, to an extent, but it does not turn the game into 'Super Turtle Bros. Brawl' as many people suggest. If two players used only the hazards to attack, it would lead to a stale-mate in every match-up. Attacking with the AID of the hazards is a far more potent strategy.

Also note that centralizing the game around these hazards is by no means a bad thing anyway. They, unlike many other items in the game, take reasonable skill to use (because of their walking, upgrading, flipping and warping mechanics) and actually add a unique style of depth to the game that no other stage is close to mirroring.


7. "The game is over-centralized around teching due to to the multiple ceilings (commonly known as a "Cave of Life").



Characters can live to quite high percents, yes. Although not to the extent that teching becomes the only skill players need. The hazards help greatly in KO'ing high-percentage opponents, as do the walk-off edges.

8. "The Fixed Camera makes it difficult to focus on combat"

Nope, it doesn't. Every attack by every character is perfectly visible on the stage, even though the camera doesn't zoom in. It is actually very helpful, as it allows players to monitor the hazards without having to get close to them.

-----------------------------------------------

In conclusion, I very much hope this stage is considered for competitive play, now that our community is escaping that "scrubby" mentality. If I have made any mistakes, please point them out to me!

Thanks for reading!​
 

Grim Tuesday

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Well, to be fair, centralizing gameplay around abuse of the hazards is kind of an issue... What's your evidence for counterpoint 6?
My evidence is having played multiple matches on it as/against multiple characters. I'm not sure I can really say anything that will convince people, they'll just have to take my word/try it themselves.

I don't really see how it's an issue. I could say that Smashville is a bad stage for not testing player's skill with hazards and it would be just as legitimate a complaint. We aren't trying to turn this game into Street Fighter.

It may be a different story if the stage asked of players a COMPLETELY different set of skills, but that simply isn't the case.
 

SethT

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If you legalize this stage you might as well legalize items. While the position of said items are predetermined it still adds an unlimited supply which creates a greater element of luck. Trips may be an element of luck, but it's minute compared to what you propose.

Also any character with mobility has a clear advantage: they can get to the items with haste while a slower character will be at a disadvantage. Small things like this are elevated to the point of being a problem with this stage imo.

EDIT: Not to mention any character with a chain grab, hell, any character with a decent knockback on their, grab can pretty much instant kill on the sides. The POW box adds the ability to easily get the needed grab.
 

Grim Tuesday

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If you legalize this stage you might as well legalize items. While the position of said items are predetermined it still adds an unlimited supply which creates a greater element of luck. Trips may be an element of luck, but it's minute compared to what you propose.

Also any character with mobility has a clear advantage: they can get to the items with haste while a slower character will be at a disadvantage. Small things like these are elevated to the point of being a problem with this stage imo.
The position of items are no where NEAR as predictable as the hazards on this stage.

The shellcreepers and sidesteppers can only spawn in 2 different positions, and the time they spawn is easily predicted. Not to mention players have about 2 seconds to react to them spawning, unlike items which are instantaneous.

The fireball is a bit more of an issue when it comes to how random it is, but considering how common and predictable it is compared to the other hazards, it doesn't really matter in my opinion.

Also note that you will always be able to see everything that spawns on the stage at all times due to the fixed camera, unlike with items where you can walk into a bob-omb which you never even had an opportunity to see.

These are 4 very powerful items that spawn in pretty much the same place that the higher mobility character would be getting before the lower mobility one. Given the matches I have played on the stage, I can safely say this isn't really a problem.

EDIT FOR YOUR EDIT: Already refuted that in the OP. Rendered impractical because of the hazards.
 

SethT

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Just because you can see where the items spawn and that it takes time for the item to spawn, doesn't deduct the fact that this it is an item, and by obtaining it you effectively gain a superior advantage through luck.

I don't see how the higher mobility is not a problem? If D3 and Wario are at the bottom of the stage, both on 150%, and both on the last stock while items are spawning at the top, obviously the Wario will have the advantage. Thats only the worst case scenario.

Grabs take seconds to perform. A chain grab or a normal grab can be performed with enough time to get out of the way of any hazards approaching resulting in easy low percentage kills.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Just because you can see where the items spawn and that it takes time for the item to spawn, doesn't deduct the fact that this it is an item, and by obtaining it you effectively gain a superior advantage through luck.

I don't see how the higher mobility is not a problem? If D3 and Wario are at the bottom of the stage, both on 150%, and both on the last stock while items are spawning at the top, obviously the Wario will have the advantage. Thats only the worst case scenario.

Grabs take seconds to perform. A chain grab or a normal grab can be performed with enough time to get out of the way of any hazards approaching resulting in easy low percentage kills.
A superior advantage through luck? How about:
• Tripping
• Spawn Points
• The Support Ghost
• The Smashville platform's starting position
• etc...

I know what you're going to say "Those hardly affect the game". The same applies for these items. The randomness is negligible when you take into account many of the other stages which are often legal (Green Greens, Pictochat, Norfair, etc...)

If Wario and King Dedede are at the bottom, and for some reason ALL 4 ITEMS ARE AT THE TOP, the Wario can go and see if he can get all of them, while the Dedede can just wait for the Wario to kill himself controlling these 4 powerful items.

If the Wario only tries to get one, the Dedede can just take the opposite route (if Wario goes past the central platform on the left, D3 can go on the right) and get another one. Also note that Dedede can use the POW block to manipulate the items from below, and shark Wario through the platform.

Chain-grabbing seriously isn't an issue. A clever player can simply throw the hazards at the person camping the walk-off to act as decoys for an approach, or just overwhelm him with them (place one on the opposite side so it warps, one on the same side so it runs into him, etc...). They are quite hard to avoid if the Dedede is just standing in one area considering they shield poke and he won't have access to any of them himself.

If you disagree, feel free to play against me on wi-fi. I'll use any character you want, see if that strategy works.
 

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It is a very interesting read.
But having ideas is useless against the hard-headed comunity.... :urg:

I could give it a try, but other players just won't...


btw, isn't Wolf a bit more overpowered than Fox in here due to the reflector invincibility?
I realy don't think so, but other people might do....
 

Grim Tuesday

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It is a very interesting read.
But having ideas is useless against the hard-headed comunity.... :urg:

I could give it a try, but other players just won't...


btw, isn't Wolf a bit more overpowered than Fox in here due to the reflector invincibility?
I realy don't think so, but other people might do....
Eh, Wolf is probably better now that I think about it. I was mainly thinking about Fox's laser when I said he was better.

The same points still stand for both of them though.
 

SethT

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Its not that they don't effect the game, its that the luck has greater consequences, more frequently. None of the courses you mention have the random hazardous occurrences happening frequently enough to warrant a ban.

The items don't even have to be on the top, they could be anywhere and yet the Wario would be able to obtain them faster then the D3. Its a great enough concern that a faster character will have the advantage in most situations in regards to picking up the items.

Well, lets take chain grabbing out of the equation. A NORMAL grab near the edge can be enough to obtain the low percentage kill.

You know as well as I do that my net isn't good enough to Wifi you bish :3 Next tourney or sometime during the holi's i'd be willing to test it though.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Its not that they don't effect the game, its that the luck has greater consequences, more frequently. None of the courses you mention have the random hazardous occurrences happening frequently enough to warrant a ban.

The items don't even have to be on the top, they could be anywhere and yet the Wario would be able to obtain them faster then the D3. Its a great enough concern that a faster character will have the advantage in most situations in regards to picking up the items.

Well, lets take chain grabbing out of the equation. A NORMAL grab near the edge can be enough to obtain the low percentage kill.

You know as well as I do that my net isn't good enough to Wifi you bish :3 Next tourney or sometime during the holi's i'd be willing to test it though.
The luck has greater consequences and happens frequently? How many stocks do you think will be lost because the hazard spawned on one side rather than spawning on the exact opposite side that is only 1 jump away? How many do you think will be lost because a ever so slightly different hazard came out instead? Especially considering the time players are given to re-act to these events.

You seem to assume that the D3 wouldn't be doing anything while the Wario is grabbing these items. If there is one hazard on one side, and another on the other side (this occurs pretty much 90% of the time on this stage) there is NO WAY that the Wario could get both of them before the D3 can. Also, D3 can actually, you know, attack Wario. He doesn't even need to get in range of having the item thrown at him, he can just shark the Wario player from underneath.

The same strategy can be used against a normal grab.
Hypothetical Situation:
King Dedede is camping in the lower right corner of the stage, if he gets a grab, he gets a kill.
Samus has free reign of the entire stage as D3 is busy camping (if Dedede moves to grab an item, the problem is removed.
Samus can now go and grab an item and place it on the opposite (bottom left) side of Dedede, so it will warp to the other side of the stage into D3 when it flips over and starts walking again.
Samus then grabs another item, which she then faces towards and semi-near D3 so it will start walking towards him.
Samus finally grabs one to use as a throwing weapon for herself.

That's a pretty strong approach, if you ask me.

I was under the impression you got fast net again, cause you were playing DOTA and stuff.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Refuting some points from the Stage Legality: Stage Specific thread:

If you think "avoid normal conflict, get shell-creeper, throw shell-creeper, repeat" is deep, then yeah, it add so much depth.
This does not occur on the stage.

Normal conflict would be the sort or play that occurs on the large majority of the stages - fighting your opponent. I'm not saying you shouldn't have to deal with the stage, but the gimmick of this stage is very overpowering. It may be more effective to fight normally, but I can camp you with shell-creepers the whole time. Falco could potentially never have to go in for the kill in some match-ups.

Yes, people should try it just like they should try all stages. But it will never be legal. The walk-offs, cave, minor circle, and powerful gimmick make it obvious to most that this stage would not be fit for the sort of play that we desire to see in tournaments.
Whether it goes against what your view of "normal conflict" is is irrelevant and not a reason to ban a stage. You could camp me with Falco, and you would end up losing. This is because I would have full control over the hazards in most cases, while you would be busy running around firing lasers. I could then set-up the hazards in such a way that would make almost an instant death situation for you.

I have refuted the points about walk-offs, cave, circle and gimmick in the OP and posts that follow.

Fandango, what are your thoughts on Fox vs. most of the cast on that stage though?
Covered in the OP.

Why would you want to make mario bros. legal? Even without the hazards that instakill, its got a circle and the stage given projectiles do not help enough in stopping the circle.

You could teach people all about the lasers on Spear Pillar, but here is still a circle there.
The circle is not over-powered. This has been play-tested and is covered in the OP.

So the hazards are so intrusive that you can't reasonably avoid them and your opponent? Why would that be a plus for the stage? In any case, I don't see how hard it would be to reflect them with fox, or instant toss them back, or spotdodge, or shield. And once you have mastered that, the game is over. There is nothing else to the stage.
The hazards are only 'intrusive' if one player is in control of them (which is the case when one is circle camping).

It is difficult to dodge possibly 3 or 4 very powerful shield-poking hazards at a time while the other player fires projectiles/sharks (if that character can do it) when the opponent knows what they are doing.

----------

Please note that these replies were made before this thread, so they were responding to their own criticisms, rather than the actual points I made in the OP.
 

SethT

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With the hazards spawning frequently enough IT IS a viable problem. Stocks are easily determined by these items and when they spawn with speed it creates a problem.

The fact still remains, they are items and as such, give a tremendous advantage (in an average of situations) towards the player who has it.

We could go on about how this character can do this to prevent this etc, but it doesn't change the fact, that again, the average amount of times the faster character will get the item first. Its enough of a problem to be addressed.

Who said's the player has to be camping near the edge to get the grab? Do you need to camp to get a single grab?

Yeah, I capped it q-q fking cheap lousy internet quotas...
 

Grim Tuesday

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With the hazards spawning frequently enough IT IS a viable problem. Stocks are easily determined by these items and when they spawn with speed it creates a problem.

The fact still remains, they are items and as such, give a tremendous advantage (in an average of more situations) towards the player who has it.

We could go on about how this character can do this to prevent this etc, but it doesn't change the fact, that again, the average amount of times the faster character will get the item first. Its enough of a problem to needs to be addressed.

Who said's the player has to be camping near the edge to get the grab? Do you need to camp to get a single grab?

Yeah, I capped it q-q fking cheap lousy internet quotas...
1. There can only be 4 on screen at a time. I wouldn't exactly consider this "spawning frequently".

2. There is nothing wrong with items giving a tremendous advantage as long as they are fairly distributed, which is the case on this stage.

3. You're right, the faster character will get the item more often on average. Except we are talking about the item, we are talking about the itemS. There will almost always be 4 on the screen at a time in vastly different positions, this prevents it from being an issue. The faster character would have to run and get the further away item if they want to avoid conflict, so that gives the slower character enough time to get a closer item.

4. Please tell me a situation where a character will be able to kill with a single back-throw on a walk-off stage without camping near the side. Dedede might be able to get a grab in the very central platform, but it's hardly going to be as effective as if he got a grab near the sides (which is why he would camp there), not to mention that the opponent can still use the items to his/her advantage to prevent being grabbed.

5. lolcapped
 

Ghostbone

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So if I'm understanding this right.
The only way to destroy the items is by throwing them off the side.
And until someone does that the same 4 will recycle themselves?
 

SethT

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*throws hands up in air* I don't have the patience nor care to bother pursuing. Its banned for a reason so there! :D best argument ever.
 

-LzR-

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Wow, just incredible. I would have never thought Mario Bros has this much depth in it.
I kinda like the stage for fun casuals.
I am a local TO and could consider this stage.
However, good luck convincing me enough and I guess nobody would come to my tourney with this stage legal.
Anyways, I guess this information can be used for something like a "Mario Bros Tournament" where that would be the only legal stage or something. I dunno, but still you made a really nice post.
 

Grim Tuesday

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*throws hands up in air* I don't have the patience nor care to bother pursuing. Its banned for a reason so there! :D best argument ever.
I give up, can a mod please lock this thread? argument=2gud

Wow, just incredible. I would have never thought Mario Bros has this much depth in it.
I kinda like the stage for fun casuals.
I am a local TO and could consider this stage.
However, good luck convincing me enough and I guess nobody would come to my tourney with this stage legal.
Anyways, I guess this information can be used for something like a "Mario Bros Tournament" where that would be the only legal stage or something. I dunno, but still you made a really nice post.
Well, I'm going to try and get my state's TO to try it out (he already agreed he'd do it if I could show him in person it's fair). Hopefully other small states can do the same, and it will escalate from there.
 

SethT

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GG argument too 2gggg

Fun course to play, always a lot of lol's involved. Just not for tourney play imo. We'll try it out sometime in a friendly though :D
 

Life

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Good thread is good.

Mario Bros lends itself well to side-tournaments methinks, though I don't think people will react well if it was introduced suddenly into a main tournament.
 

Grim Tuesday

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For everyone who is reading this thread and agrees with the points I have made, I recommend you show it to other smashers in your area and play against them on it in friendlies. Try and ease people into the idea it isn't a broken stage.
 

Ghostbone

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Well, I'm going to try and get my state's TO to try it out (he already agreed he'd do it if I could show him in person it's fair). Hopefully other small states can do the same, and it will escalate from there.
Unfortunately people can't even do that with stages like Norfair...or even Jungle Japes and RC :(
 

Ghostbone

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Well, seems like the BBR is being effectively disbanded now, with the Ruleset Committee D:.
(or at least the recommended ruleset is....T__T)
 

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That's because... People in the BBR =/= Intelligent posters.
There are some, but there's just not enough of them....
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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The usual argument "thanks for making MK even more broken" doesn't work on this stage. That means there is no argument against it. It doesn't even have ledges to plank with!
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
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Only the borderline stages have a chance at making MK better. The ones that are obviously banworthy just degenerate the game into excessive randomness or into some mini-game deciding a game in a set.

And circle camping DOES still work on this stage. Slow character still won't be able to catch fast characters in an infinite loop. And Sharking doesn't stop people from jumping over your attack.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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I love how people are saying the community is thick headed without actually thinking why people truly want these stages gone.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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Ok, really?

I'm all for theory, but anyone who actually plays this stage knows this is not a competitive stage. It's a different game entirely. Like, I don't even care how much you want to logically argue it out, and I'm aware of how hypocritical this is, but this is theory gone wrong, and is almost as bad as SuSa's "ban everything random" criteria.

Be realistic. Nobody is EVER going to attend a tournament with Mario Bros. Legal. Ever.

Except maybe to ridicule it.
 

UberMario

Smash Master
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Messages
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There are two things that stand out on there to me:

-If there's an item/flipped enemy/etc. on the top platform, the sprites can turn around and pass by the pipes there.
-Points A and C for Fox are pretty irrelevant, because no player would literally sit there the whole match while holding the reflector out, they'd just have to see that the opponent is getting ready to throw and hold Down B [in air if Fox didn't have time to clear out the sprites around him]. Similarly, he can just use his Fox Illusion in order to run away if the opponent is chasing him down, so sharking isn't going to be a real issue for Fox.


Although it may not be considered valuable, I believe that banned stages should be researched like this so that people understand them better. Even if they still have no chance of becoming legal, it's good to know why they have no chance and/or there are any redeeming qualities [however big or small] for them.
 

Raziek

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Fair point, UberMario.

It just seems to me that stages that are commonly used or are borderline are a better usage of effort.
 

Thiocyanide

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
6,226
I would totally go to a tourney with this enabled, because I'd know good players wouldn't be there and I could win M1, play C.Falcon M2, and then CP this M3 and laugh as I killed people at 0% as I ran away with Fox.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
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Australia
Once again guys, circle camping doesn't work against someone who knows the stage.
And you really aren't killing someone at early percents unless they're camping the edge, which is their fault.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
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Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Once again guys, circle camping doesn't work against someone who knows the stage.
And you really aren't killing someone at early percents unless they're camping the edge, which is their fault.
This.

As I re-call, I managed to stop Ghostbone from circle camping as Fox with BOWSER. How did I do it? Exactly what I've been saying. While he was running around firing lasers, I grabbed some of the hazards, upgraded them, placed them around the circle camping area and with a combination of throwing them, activating them from underneath and using the POW block, I managed to hit him AND kill him.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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So the game turns entire into abusing the stage as much as possible with the hazards it gives, instead of performing conflict with the opponent.

So we're playing Mario's Bros. not Smash.
 
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