Tenative Evo Ruleset (Discussion Welcome)

[warriorman222]

That's one thing I love about Smash 4. There are so many characters and Nintendo tried to make it balanced (for the most part! don't kill me anyone reading this who doesn't agree) so at this point most of the characters are insanely fun to watch cause people are still inventing new ways to play with these characters

Best part is all the heavies have amplified corrected shortcomings...Except Ganon, whose recovery is still garbage in distance and defense, and whose only punish move does 10%, where a lightweight can get 50% on you if you whiff, and whose moveset is still the game's slowest yet not the strongest nor longest ranged... Who the hell goes out of their way to make sure their main is garbage?

Bowser's lack of movement is replaced with awesome dash speed and faster attacks. DDD's lack of approach is compensated with an very strong projectile. Ike's lack of attack speed and recovery is compensated by having his attack speed and power increased and his recovery not gimpable on hit.

So why does Ganon, Sakurai's own main, remain almost unchanged? He gets more power, but he's still the slowest and not the strongest or most ranged. His recovery was still garbage and never needed nerfs even in Melee (Yes, I know it was a glitch, but without that glitch his recovery was worse than Roy's, a character invalidated completely by that one shortcoming, and he was still destroyed by semi-spikes).

Just give him back Wizkick jump. Or make Dark Vault distance normal distance, something that should have happened already. I don't see why he has to correct his fatal shortcoming with customs, while almost every other heavy in the goddamm game gets it done for them (Except ROB and Wario, who are still great as ever anyways). Guess this is the result of being the best with Ganon in a small group of devs... You get stacked opinions on what is and isn't good.

 

[Thinkaman]

So why does Ganon, Sakurai's own main, remain almost unchanged?

I'm pretty sure this, like virtually everything that is said about Sakurai ever, was just made up at some point.

Sakurai plays Ganon once, at some random Japanese Brawl event 7 years ago, and suddenly it's his "main."

 

[warriorman222]

I'm pretty sure this, like virtually everything that is said about Sakurai ever, was just made up at some point.

Sakurai plays Ganon once, at some random Japanese Brawl event 7 years ago, and suddenly it's his "main."

Thought it was actually his main.

 

[Octagon]

Thought it was actually his main.

Now that we're talking about it I really, like reeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy wanna know who Sakurai's main is. My guess would be Kirby since he made him up but who knows...

 

[warriorman222]

Now that we're talking about it I really, like reeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy wanna know who Sakurai's main is. My guess would be Kirby since he made him up but who knows...

True. But considering he playtests with one hand, Ganon actually sounds plausible for medical reasons(slowest character=least button presses).

 

[Octagon]

True. But considering he playtests with one hand, Ganon actually sounds plausible for medical reasons(slowest character=least button presses).

Yeah that's true. Reading stories about how dedicated he is to game development, especially smash, is sad but extremely inspirational

 

[warriorman222]

Yeah that's true. Reading stories about how dedicated he is to game development, especially smash, is sad but extremely inspirational

It makes it sound he cares more about us, the ones who cry about how this is still here, or how it isn't Melee, or how Ridley isn't in or the bias(what did you expect? he finishes KIU then is immediately asked to make Smash 4 because fans. We have nobody to blame but ourselves.), when his health is at serious risk. Let's all have a moment for Sakurai. He sacrifices so much for this series and gets nothing but complaints in return. I think he needs 2 words to be said to him:

Thank you.

 

[lordvaati]

while it doesn't really effect singles, a custom move exploit was found in dubs.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/71236362

 

[Thinkaman]

In semi-recent interviews, Sakurai has said he "isn't allowed" to have a character he likes or players the most.

But if I had to guess a character as his favorite, I'd actually guess Palutena.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

In semi-recent interviews, Sakurai has said he "isn't allowed" to have a character he likes or players the most.

But if I had to guess a character as his favorite, I'd actually guess Palutena.

Didnt he say after the 3DS version's release that he liked the Heavies the most?

 

[Nabbitnator]

EVO should have customs for the same reason that EVO should have Smash 4 in the first place.

There are some people who have said that EVO should not have Smash 4 because it's "too new", "not competitively tested", and "needs to prove itself."

Those people are crazy.

It is crazy because they are having tekken 7 at evo and I have yet to see any cabinets to allow the players to practice. Along with mortal kombat X. They say the craziest things but forget that there are games that come out literally 2 to 3 months before and get into evo.

 

[Octagon]

In semi-recent interviews, Sakurai has said he "isn't allowed" to have a character he likes or players the most.

But if I had to guess a character as his favorite, I'd actually guess Palutena.

Why Palutena?

 

[ghaudephaede010]

Your attitude is basically "guilty until proven innocent," and no, it doesn't make sense to me. If you were to apply that attitude toward the game in a broad sense, then the meta would have started with 1 character and 1 stage and only expanded as each additional piece of the game is "justified" in your eyes.

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of thoroughly testing customs is to see if there's any reason why they won't work. The default assumption should be that they do. Once I saw all of the effort made toward solving the logistical hurdles involved I was 100% on board.

Hi. My stance is not guilty until proven innocent. The problem we have is that custom will replace an already viable game. In this case, it is not guilty until proven innocent, it is prove it is MORE viable than what we have already. Completely different. And when you think about it, my stance is thee only way to get it done.

@ G ghaudephaede010 : you are going about this exactly backwards. We cannot and do not apply "guilty until proven innocent" to elements of competitive play. How are we supposed to prove them innocent? At locals? But locals want to prep people for Evo. They're going to be running the Evo ruleset, because if they run customs, then their region is hosed when Evo comes around and has a completely different meta. Bottom-up is virtually impossible to pull off. What's more, "something broken might be discovered"? In the last two weeks, two different characters have been found to have jab infinites, or close to it. What if Mewtwo comes out - should we ban him until we're sure nothing is broken? And, by the way, we can't be sure - how long was it before some of the newest tech was found in Melee?

And how do we prove it innocent? Now we've got considerably less people testing in a tournament environment, considerably less people getting used to the strong (but not broken) elements that you can counter if you know how, and generally people learning to play without them. I mean, to put it bluntly, if the only things we're accepting are tournament data, how do you:
a) prove that Norfair is broken in competitive play when legal
b) prove that Duck Hunt is not broken in competitive play when banned

Well, in the case of a), it's easy: start counterpicking people there and show them your broken strategy. In the case of b)... Uh... How do we get tournament data on a stage that's not allowed in tournaments?

The only reasonable way to go about this is to start with innocent until proven guilty, and ban elements as they are shown to be "guilty". There simply is no other way.

If your great idea is to put an untested, and potentially dangerous (and not exactly overwhelmingly accepted form) rule set on a scale as large as EVO, then I cannot argue with you because your logic makes absolutely no sense to me. But it comes down to reality and the reality is, if you are going to replace rules with other rules, you should prove your rules are the better way. The current rules are not broken, nor do they present major issues, people just want a change. Which is fine, but not necessarily healthy. All I want is proof that this change is healthy because it will be replacing an already healthy rule set (at EVO).

I hardly think a character compared to a bunch of move sets and combinations of those move sets is comparable but then, I would not be surprised if someone went to thee extreme to ask for a ban on Mewtwo. I would laugh at it but it is possible.

There are no infinites. You just made that up.

Thee only way to prove something is broken is to exploit its brokenness. If you cannot show the stage is game breaking, broken, or counter productive, then you fail. But in this case, you must remember that there is a rule set in place. The job is not to prove your rule set is ok, or not broken, but to prove it should also stand over the current one. And right now, that is not happening. I hope that is clear. I want custom moves, but I just saw a video yesterday of some potentially broken Olimar stuff using customs. I am glad this is being tested and exposed now but there is a lot of work to do. Do you ban the move? The custom character? The combination or circumstances? Keep everything banned? It becomes a true thought process and think tank. And until it seems majority of these things are good and tested, and the majority of the community can agree, they should not have a presence at a tournament as large as EVO.

I remember Brawl being at EVO with items on. Yeah, that was a great representation for the community. I am not saying customs are broken, but neither are items and that is not the place this community stood as a whole. We have to be on one page and right now, there is still too much work to do for me to take customs seriously at that level.

Last thing... I respect that you think I am going about it backwards, but the problem is I see you as going about it backwards. I would never say, put in these new things (like items I prefer) without testing them. And hell, lets make EVO the place to showcase it. That sounds reckless and dangerous to me. But to each their own.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hi. My stance is not guilty until proven innocent. The problem we have is that custom will replace an already viable game. In this case, it is not guilty until proven innocent, it is prove it is MORE viable than what we have already. Completely different. And when you think about it, my stance is thee only way to get it done.

Well, preliminary results are overwhelmingly positive. Most people who have really gotten into customs enjoy them. It enables far more low tiers to be somewhat viable in competitive play, it offers more aggressive options for many characters, and makes the game more varied and interesting. This is what we have so far; the only way our results could get significantly better is by making this the actual default tournament ruleset.

If your great idea is to put an untested, and potentially dangerous (and not exactly overwhelmingly accepted form) rule set on a scale as large as EVO, then I cannot argue with you because your logic makes absolutely no sense to me.

Funny you mention that, it makes sense to Evo. Of the games listed there, we have:
- GGXRD
- MKX
- Tekken 7

Of which GGXRD is younger than Smash WiiU, and MKX and Tekken 7 haven't been released yet.

And of course, it's being tested. So far, the test results (and there have been a fair bit of them) have been overwhelmingly positive. You ask us to show the new rules are better? We're doing pretty much exactly that. Show that the meta is healthy? Hello, that's what's happening.

I hardly think a character compared to a bunch of move sets and combinations of those move sets is comparable but then, I would not be surprised if someone went to thee extreme to ask for a ban on Mewtwo. I would laugh at it but it is possible.

There are no infinites. You just made that up.

Link "infinite"
DDD "infinite"

Just because you aren't aware of tech doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Hey, have you heard about the 0-death glitch on Wuhu island that I also "just made up"?

And until it seems majority of these things are good and tested, and the majority of the community can agree, they should not have a presence at a tournament as large as EVO.

We have quite a lot of time to find anything potentially broken. More time than the guys playing Mortal Kombat or Tekken do, in any case.

I remember Brawl being at EVO with items on. Yeah, that was a great representation for the community.

So how long is long enough? How long into this game should we wait? See, the problem here is, as multiple people have pointed out, the common excuse for customs off has been, "We need to practice for APEX". Now it's gonna be "We need to practice for EVO". And then "We need to practice for The Fall Classic" or whatever the next big major is. And nothing is ever going to change. This game is better with customs. This is not like items. Evo went over our heads on that one, and everyone understood that they were broken. With customs, the results have been overwhelmingly positive thus far, and unless something significant changes in the next month, we really ought to say "enough testing, if this is broken/degenerate, we'll find out the hard way". Because this tip-toeing around, saying "we're still not sure" (even though we kinda are) is robbing us of a game which is simply better.

 

[ghaudephaede010]

I am going to respond to your infinite thing first: I was joking. I can see how that can be missed, but I was really kidding. I thought you would be able to tell by the, "you just made that up" part but my fault for messing that up.

Well, preliminary results are overwhelmingly positive. Most people who have really gotten into customs enjoy them. It enables far more low tiers to be somewhat viable in competitive play, it offers more aggressive options for many characters, and makes the game more varied and interesting. This is what we have so far; the only way our results could get significantly better is by making this the actual default tournament ruleset.



Funny you mention that, it makes sense to Evo. Of the games listed there, we have:
- GGXRD
- MKX
- Tekken 7

Of which GGXRD is younger than Smash WiiU, and MKX and Tekken 7 haven't been released yet.

And of course, it's being tested. So far, the test results (and there have been a fair bit of them) have been overwhelmingly positive. You ask us to show the new rules are better? We're doing pretty much exactly that. Show that the meta is healthy? Hello, that's what's happening.

I hardly think a character compared to a bunch of move sets and combinations of those move sets is comparable but then, I would not be surprised if someone went to thee extreme to ask for a ban on Mewtwo. I would laugh at it but it is possible.



Link "infinite"
DDD "infinite"

Just because you aren't aware of tech doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Hey, have you heard about the 0-death glitch on Wuhu island that I also "just made up"?



We have quite a lot of time to find anything potentially broken. More time than the guys playing Mortal Kombat or Tekken do, in any case.



So how long is long enough? How long into this game should we wait? See, the problem here is, as multiple people have pointed out, the common excuse for customs off has been, "We need to practice for APEX". Now it's gonna be "We need to practice for EVO". And then "We need to practice for The Fall Classic" or whatever the next big major is. And nothing is ever going to change. This game is better with customs. This is not like items. Evo went over our heads on that one, and everyone understood that they were broken. With customs, the results have been overwhelmingly positive thus far, and unless something significant changes in the next month, we really ought to say "enough testing, if this is broken/degenerate, we'll find out the hard way". Because this tip-toeing around, saying "we're still not sure" (even though we kinda are) is robbing us of a game which is simply better.

I am unsure how the situation between those games and Smash is relevant? Those games are tournament fighters with heavy testing in those areas done by developers and players alike. Smash is not in the same boat and far, far, more... customizable.

By overwhelmingly positive, you mean inconclusive. I see players both praise and destroy them. As well, I see new exploits all the time. Most importantly, I do not see conclusive proof that it is better, than our current rule set. There simply is no proof that it is, right now.

I already answered how long is enough. And I restated it so there you have it. EVO is, in my opinion not the place for it right now but I cannot argue with you about it any longer. I am not on this site enough to keep up. I post so rarely, as you can see. None of thee items were broke and no Metaknight was in top eight, by the way with items on. Maybe items was what customs are? I do not know. But I can see the burden of proof to replace a completely working and not broken rule set as one that lies with the supporting community. We have not done enough yet, and it must be understood that change does not happen in one day. We must do the work.

Again, my apology on not making my joke clear, but I have had the jab combo done on me in tournament so I definitely know it is real and it exists. I had made no personal attack on you or anyone so I thought my obnoxiousness would give my joking stance away. That was my mistake and a humbling one.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

My bad for not getting it. I guess I just disagree. 6 Months since release on 3DS should be enough time.

 

[Octagon]

My bad for not getting it. I guess I just disagree. 6 Months since release on 3DS should be enough time.

Yeah seriously its not even that hard

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Also worth mentioning that I've unlocked every custom move twice over (once on 3DS, once on Wii U) and it took maybe a month, month and a half for each. I didn't even really grind at it, I just aimed for the "clear X mode with all characters" challenges for the most part.

My point being that you two are completely right.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Also worth mentioning that I've unlocked every custom move twice over (once on 3DS, once on Wii U) and it took maybe a month, month and a half for each. I didn't even really grind at it, I just aimed for the "clear X mode with all characters" challenges for the most part.

My point being that you two are completely right.

I've had a somewhat different experience. I was able to unlock the custom moves on the 3DS version within 2 months, but the Wii U version is giving me a lot more trouble

 

[Sixfortyfive]

If you go for the All-Star on hard w/ every character challenge, you'll knock out a lot of them in the process. If you're an absolute completionist, then that should be one of the "major" challenges that you tackle first anyway, since All-Star is one of the few modes that doesn't allow the use of customs, so it's a good launching point to unlock them through that mode for use in other modes.

Alternatively, I haven't tried this method yet, but it looks solid:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=151838585&postcount=10217

 

[JipC]

LOL WTF 5 MIN
If people complain enough it will get changed. Not advocating anything just sayin~
Good stagelist, but I dont like how they're seperated. Imo:

• Starter stages: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Duck Hunt, Town & City
  
• Counter-pick stages: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise

Lylat could be interchangeable, I heard its rarely ever actually a neutral, plus I dont think neutrals should have hard advantages/disadvantages for characters and Lylat heavily cripples projectile users with a the tilting.
For the edges though... Zelda and Palutena mains just need to aim their teleports better (Sheik has the bouncing fish so dont give me that ****), noone else is that heavily ****ed over by it because of the magnet ledges besides Marth/Lucina and Luigi

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi, Falcon, Ganon, and Palutena (customs only) are probably the best imo.

Say what now?
Yoshi's only good custom is Lick, and even then why go for Lick, a kill move till 140% for most characters that aren't jiggly and get rid of your command grab?

 

[webbedspace]

LOL WTF 5 MIN
If people complain enough it will get changed. Not advocating anything just sayin~

No, it legally cannot, as has been explained on the previous page.

 

[JipC]

No, it legally cannot, as has been explained on the previous page.

Im talking about the time
5 min is too little
The music thing is dumb though

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Im talking about the time
5 min is too little
The music thing is dumb though

EVO seems to be very concerned with time restrictions and I imagine they're mostly worried about the worst case (i.e. all games go to time) for the sake of scheduling everything.

And honestly, between customs, time, and stages, I'd rather fight for customs > stages > time.

 

[lordvaati]

So yep, Wiz posted the rules online, and it is officially For Glory Rules(2 stock 5 minutes), so I guess that is set now.

but what DOES worry me is that it did not say Items were off.....pleas tell me someone can get in contact with Mr. Wizard to make sure there are no items. I'm mad serious here.

EDIT: Oh, and on the subject of Time: I would expect it to stay. why? Melee is 4 stock 8 minutes....and some people in the other parts of the FGC felt that it was too much time and made the sets go on too long in prior years at Evo.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So yep, Wiz posted the rules online, and it is officially For Glory Rules(2 stock 5 minutes), so I guess that is set now.

but what DOES worry me is that it did not say Items were off.....pleas tell me someone can get in contact with Mr. Wizard to make sure there are no items. I'm mad serious here.

EDIT: Oh, and on the subject of Time: I would expect it to stay. why? Melee is 4 stock 8 minutes....and some people in the other parts of the FGC felt that it was too much time and made the sets go on too long in prior years at Evo.

Did he tweet saying the stock rules are set now? IIRC it doesn't need to be decided on until March 27.

EDIT: Confirmed: Items are off for EVO.

 

[mimgrim]

Say what now?
Yoshi's only good custom is Lick, and even then why go for Lick, a kill move till 140% for most characters that aren't jiggly and get rid of your command grab?

You misread his post, Slush. He was talking about characters that he finds enjoyable to watch as a spectator and the "(customs only)" part was solely for Palutena I believe.

 

[[Deuce]]

No, it legally cannot, as has been explained on the previous page.

What legality? I checked the last page and it wasn't there. The only legal discussion was the rights to the music used

 

[Sixfortyfive]

EDIT: Oh, and on the subject of Time: I would expect it to stay. why? Melee is 4 stock 8 minutes....and some people in the other parts of the FGC felt that it was too much time and made the sets go on too long in prior years at Evo.

I agree that it wouldn't be fair for Melee to keep 8 minutes while Smash 4 gets stuck with 5-6 minutes, but maybe Melee can get away with it because it doesn't use up any of the same equipment (CRTs) as other games.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

EDIT: Oh, and on the subject of Time: I would expect it to stay. why? Melee is 4 stock 8 minutes....and some people in the other parts of the FGC felt that it was too much time and made the sets go on too long in prior years at Evo.

I don't know, Melee rarely has time-outs, whereas we saw quite a few in Smash 4 at Apex. Granted, Smash 4 is still new, so they're bound to happen more often (and, let's face it, they're more than likely to happen in matchups like Rosalina vs. Sonic), but still.

Point being, 5 minute time-outs aren't nearly as bad as 6 minute ones.

 

[Splash Damage]

But can someone with more legal knowledge than me explain why this would preclude Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Kongo Jungle 64 from the stage list?

Personally I doubt that those are banned because of music, but rather because they're all rather dynamic and ban-worthy stages. Then again, where does that leave Halberd and Delfino?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Personally I doubt that those are banned because of music, but rather because they're all rather dynamic and ban-worthy stages. Then again, where does that leave Halberd and Delfino?

Ask literally anyone who's done tournament matches on Skyloft, Wuhu, or KJ64. They're perfectly good stages

 

[Splash Damage]

Then you have guys like Little Mac, where Smashville and Battlefield are two of his worst stages. (But T&C is one of his very best, and Lylat is pretty good too.)

In my experience, Lylat is easily Mac's worst stage of any counter pick or neutral, as all anyone has to do is stand on the platforms and spam roll, stopping any of mac's o[tions regardless of how he reads them.

 

[Splash Damage]

Ask literally anyone who's done tournament matches on Skyloft, Wuhu, or KJ64. They're perfectly good stages

KJ64 Is fine, but I've heard and experienced at least some disagreement with Skyloft due to the ability to camp on a good amount of the transformations.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

KJ64 Is fine, but I've heard and experienced at least some disagreement with Skyloft due to the ability to camp on a good amount of the transformations.

That doesn't apply there any more than on (legal) delfino, and there are far more transformations that aren't campable and are really fun to play on. There's a lot more discussion on the topic over at the Stage Analysis and Discussion thread, but basically both Delfino and Wuhu are really fun stages with minimal problems and should be legal

 

[Splash Damage]

That doesn't apply there any more than on (legal) delfino, and there are far more transformations that aren't campable and are really fun to play on. There's a lot more discussion on the topic over at the Stage Analysis and Discussion thread, but basically both Delfino and Wuhu are really fun stages with minimal problems and should be legal

They're definately fun, but they both have Walk Offs, campable sections, some random elements, ect. that make banning them at least on the table.

 

[Splash Damage]

I remember Brawl being at EVO with items on. Yeah, that was a great representation for the community. I am not saying customs are broken, but neither are items and that is not the place this community stood as a whole. We have to be on one page and right now, there is still too much work to do for me to take customs seriously at that level.

Items are humongously broken, they are based entirely on RNG and make skill almost arbitrary in some cases. There is more than enough time for people to accustom themselves with custom moves and make them practical, and technically the players have to learn how to deal with the characters and mechanics of the game as well on a crunched time limit(said limit being the few months after release and before Apex). Overall, the "not enough time" argument is essentially irrelevant as it is the player's job to accustom themselves with the allowed, balanced mechanics of the game

 

[TheASDF]

Personally I doubt that those are banned because of music, but rather because they're all rather dynamic and ban-worthy stages. Then again, where does that leave Halberd and Delfino?

My guess is that they had to clear certain music for streaming beforehand, so they just took the Apex stages, cleared the music for those, and now can't really do anything for the others.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

They're definately fun, but they both have Walk Offs, campable sections, some random elements, ect. that make banning them at least on the table.

Please explain to me how it's possible to feasibly camp any given transformation on Skyloft or Wuhu Island given that the stage will move on in 15 seconds or less and the camper will be forced to return to center stage in order to avoid being left behind. Also explain why Delfino Plaza does not suffer from the same problem.