Tenative Evo Ruleset (Discussion Welcome)

[Jaxas]

They're definately fun, but they both have Walk Offs, campable sections, some random elements, ect. that make banning them at least on the table.

Temporary walkoffs, which removes the whole problem from them.
Temporary campable sections, which lessens the problem from them (and isn't any worse than Delphino for example)
Random elements? The only random things in the traveling stages are which transformation is next, and the balloon in the one transition of Wuhu.

None of these are banworthy at all, really.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

They're definately fun, but they both have Walk Offs, campable sections, some random elements, ect. that make banning them at least on the table.

But those walks offs and campable sections are temporary, lasting 15 seconds tops, and they dont interfere any more so than Delfino's questionable transformations. Them being banned (and delfino being legal) should NOT be the assumed default, but a possible conclusion the community reaches after playing major tournament matches on them.

 

[Djent]

"Guys, I don't think Smash 4 should have been on the main stage for finals day at Apex.

3 months just wasn't enough time to test the game. Sure enough, Diddy looked pretty busted. The crowd seemed mostly bored during the top 8. Think of the negative impressions left on the (near) 100k people watching!"

– a logically-consistent person who is against customs due to lack of testing time.

 

[Splash Damage]

But those walks offs and campable sections are temporary, lasting 15 seconds tops, and they dont interfere any more so than Delfino's questionable transformations. Them being banned (and delfino being legal) should NOT be the assumed default, but a possible conclusion the community reaches after playing major tournament matches on them.

They are brief, but there are typically more than one of each type of section(multiple campables, multiple walkoffs particularly on Delfino, ect.). I'm not really trying to say that they should be banned, but i'm trying to theorize as to why.

 

[thehard]

I shot Mr. Wizard a tweet asking him to consider moving T&C and Lylat to starters and he obliged and updated EVO's website to reflect that. Crazy.

 

[Octagon]

I shot Mr. Wizard a tweet asking him to consider moving T&C and Lylat to starters and he obliged and updated EVO's website to reflect that. Crazy.

Wow Mr. Wizard seems like a really cool guy, glad he's setting up Smash 4 at Evo

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I shot Mr. Wizard a tweet asking him to consider moving T&C and Lylat to starters and he obliged and updated EVO's website to reflect that. Crazy.

Excellent news. Given that the stage list is locked because lol Nintendo, I think the only point of improvement is custom moves. And he seemed willing to implement Ampharos's project so I'm hopeful on that score.

 

[T0MMY]

Decided to make Evo the testing grounds for a pet project?
So many problems with this.
Sorry, Custom Moves, you're not going to get the rightful time to mature into something we'll need when the meta is ready for you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Decided to make Evo the testing grounds for a pet project?
So many problems with this.
Sorry, Custom Moves, you're not going to get the rightful time to mature into something we'll need when the meta is ready for you.

Is there anything actually not wrong with this post?

 

[Hippieslayer]

Insufficient testing is such a crappy argument, yeah let's assume they are utterly broken and unusable. That's the starting point of the naysayers, who fail to grasp that no amount of testing will ever compare to what we will get from actually having them on. If it turns out they are actually broken, then just ****ing ban them, no loss.

**** will never be ready. But if custom moves being on becomes the norm people will adjust in a month. There is no reason not to have customs on.

If it takes too much time then how about add timers to disallow people to hover over counterpicks for ages? And you know ******** stuff like that which takes more time than customs.

I could buy the "I dont like customs cause subjective opinion" arguments IF customs actually changed the nature of the game in a way that made it so that it wasn't Smash Bros anymore, but it's just more of the goodies for crying out loud.

also why would this forum censor the common word for feces? is this supposed to be a forum for religious nuts who think that cussing causes cancer via jesus christ or 12 year olds with autism suffering from HPD or something?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

It is easier to find and state what is "wrong" among a list of things that are "right", as opposed to find and state what is "right" among a list of things that are "wrong".


If customs are allowed, and there is either a gamebreaking bug or something is overpowered, it can be banned. Problem solved, with little to no repercussions.

If customs aren't allowed, people will continue to come up with more reasons as to why they shouldn't be allowed, because the above problems "aren't tested enough". This is because time is a very powerful illusion. If something is allocated a longer timeframe of discussion, the people who vehemently believe that custom moves are "wrong" will become ever more rooted in their opinions over time, to the point of further trying to persuade neutral parties whom are unaware about customs that they are "wrong". People who think customs are "right" would have their say-so too, and can persuade others. But in this particular environment where customs aren't allowed, will they truly be able to persuade the majority of people that customs are a "good" thing? Because people whom are neutral could be persuaded that they are "wrong", when these said neutral people could also have been persuaded that customs are "right" had they been allowed.

Because of this, a greater divide happens between people who believe customs are "right" vs those who believe customs are "wrong". And this divide could potentially lead to customs never being allowed, due to misinformation. Because people are easily mislead by the opinions of others, especially when time is a large factor.


Jumping into a pool of cold water is easier than trying to ease your way in, because you will keep retracting your foot out of reflex due to your body not being adjusted to the temperature. If that is the case, I say that the best solution is to just jump right on in, because the water is fine. And if any troublemakers enter the pool (broken custom moves), we have lifeguards (the community) to escort these problems out of the pool so that everyone else can continue to have fun.


Lastly, people can still learn things even if they haven't been properly tested. In fact, people are more prone to learn things much more quickly in the heat of the moment as opposed to waiting for said moment to happen. Competitive players have to have the ability to adapt on the fly in regards to participating in a match. I don't see why they don't have enough skills to not be able to react/adapt to custom moves in the same manner, as well. They will be fine.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

So, from what I saw in the comments section about the EVO ruleset change announcement on the front page, Zero is trying to reach Mr.Wizard privately via something like skype for a 1 on 1 chat. We all know what he's going to try to do.

Somebody respectable who's onboard with the current changes wanna cut him off via warning Mr.Wizard on twitter?

I'll message Amazing Ampharos

 

[Nidtendofreak]

An updated twitter post from Zero has him unlocking customs and trying to use practice with them on stream apparently, so idk anymore. Seems to be in support of customs, or rather at least still going despite customs being on.

Would have been nice if I had been able to find his twitter account earlier. >_> Awkward. The comment section on the front page (page 1 of comments) still has talk about him trying to contact Mr.Wizard about the ruleset. The link to the tweet doesn't work, I can't find it on his account, but apparently other people have seen it?

 

[popsofctown]

But those walks offs and campable sections are temporary, lasting 15 seconds tops, and they dont interfere any more so than Delfino's questionable transformations. Them being banned (and delfino being legal) should NOT be the assumed default, but a possible conclusion the community reaches after playing major tournament matches on them.

In past games I wouldn't care, but this time around I'm a little more worried. 15 seconds of walkoff camping from the player who's ahead can mean no damage exchanges for 15 seconds. 15 seconds of camping transformations can mean the same thing. If you lose 30 seconds from the timer that can lead to time outs you wouldn't otherwise see.

I think stages like this should be closely watched to see if they generate more timeout play than other stages. It's probably not worth it to add time to the global, standard timer, just so you can keep these stages.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Regarding Zero's tweet I thought someone on Reddit revealed that it was just a bot or was completely fabricated.


In regards to the ruleset, I think the only major change that's needed now is to change the 2 stock 5 min. into 3 stock 8 min. so we can promote a more aggressive and compelling gameplay. Someone respectable needs to contact Mr. Wizard and explain to him in as briefly a manner as possible why 3 stocks is superior for determining skill and why it won't drag on the event as much as people believe it would. We still have a little over a month to get this established so not all hope is lost.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They're too worried about worse case scenario. You'll see the reasoning if you look at the interview just posted on the front page.

Now, what I would like to try to talk him into, is full stage list striking. He seemed open to it in the interview.

 

[Octagon]

Regarding Zero's tweet I thought someone on Reddit revealed that it was just a bot or was completely fabricated.


In regards to the ruleset, I think the only major change that's needed now is to change the 2 stock 5 min. into 3 stock 8 min. so we can promote a more aggressive and compelling gameplay. Someone respectable needs to contact Mr. Wizard and explain to him in as briefly a manner as possible why 3 stocks is superior for determining skill and why it won't drag on the event as much as people believe it would. We still have a little over a month to get this established so not all hope is lost.

Idk...i feel like that would take even longer cause then players would use the 8 minutes to their advantage and try to run out the clock whenever it would be in their favor

 

[Alhobbies440]

But only the most extreme of the campy players would do that and most of the best characters naturally won't want to run down the clock for that long.

 

[MajorMajora]

Idk...i feel like that would take even longer cause then players would use the 8 minutes to their advantage and try to run out the clock whenever it would be in their favor

The long clock makes it harder to run the clock.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The clock is non-negotiable for EVO anyway so it's fairly pointless to stress it too much. EVO is running 9 games, and like any responsible national they plan for worst case scenario. They've planned for all of our matches in 5 minute games to time out; if all of our matches in 8 minute games timed out they wouldn't be able to run all of the events they want to run even if we would expect to run at similar speed on average in 8 minute games. I would have personally preferred 3/8 myself, but 2/5 isn't a huge problem and isn't something we can change at this point (unless we want 3/5, but that would be terrible).

 

[Alhobbies440]

I see what you mean. I just don't want 2/5 or 2/6 to become the standard after Evo. Evo already seems to be making Custom moves the standard. Hopefully TO's will be open minded and we see 3/8 for Apex 2016.

 

[Octagon]

The long clock makes it harder to run the clock.

But that won't stop people from trying, making battles slower paced

 

[MajorMajora]

But that won't stop people from trying, making battles slower paced

It will, however, deter them from trying. People are less likely to try to run the clock if doing so is harder, and therefore less likely to work. I don't see how people will feel more inclined to doing something if you make it harder.

 

[Hippieslayer]

They're too worried about worse case scenario. You'll see the reasoning if you look at the interview just posted on the front page.

Now, what I would like to try to talk him into, is full stage list striking. He seemed open to it in the interview.

Worst case scenario lighting strikes the venue, it catches fire and the roof collapses, all the top players die except Zero.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Worst case scenario lighting strikes the venue, it catches fire and the roof collapses, all the top players die except Zero.

So, Las Vegas is in a desert; there is lightning in the city like once a year. The EVO staff does indeed plan for everything.

For serious though, EVO is hardcore on the preparation and tight TOing. They've run a little late due to long Marvel sets before but not out of hand; the event is thousands of people and 9 games so not running way late and into an extra day requires them to be this way.

 

[Vincent21]

I see what you mean. I just don't want 2/5 or 2/6 to become the standard after Evo. Evo already seems to be making Custom moves the standard. Hopefully TO's will be open minded and we see 3/8 for Apex 2016.

I feel like this needs saying; Evo won't set anything in stone. If 3/8 turns out to be a good decision, it'll still be a good decision after completing an Evo with 2 stocks and 5 minutes, as a matter of fact, if the issues pertaining to a 2/5 are, during the event, both recognized and vocalized strongly enough, there is even a higher likelihood of the right people and parties understanding and then acquiescing to the demands in future events. They saw the problem, or lost benefits, with their own eyes and therefore would understand now.

This is honestly why people who are anti-customs should be... pro-customs. If they are broken, then being ALLOWED at Evo would be a decisive death sentence. Like if Dabuz can back what he said about Olimar/Rosa recently, and a sufficient number of other customs-based issues arose, it'll leave a strong enough impression on the people who go to Evo that customs would never get off the ground again unless someone was willing to push a Pokémon level system of bans and restrictions, at which point it could be easily and decisively argued that the game is poorer for them.

If you really think customs are bad, you should push for them. Sacrifice Evo at your altar and behold as the Smash Gods make your will known. If they're that bad they'll never see the light of day again.

But that's just speaking devil's advocate on why even the current actions of anti-customs players and fans aren't making sense. I think the game should be reasonably okay, but that we should also be very open to seeing exploits, making deicisions, and banning individual customs post Evo if we see any problems. For the aforementioned reason it's important we keep the pool clean.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If you really think customs are bad, you should push for them. Sacrifice Evo at your altar and behold as the Smash Gods make your will known. If they're that bad they'll never see the light of day again.

Yeah, see, this is an incredibly stupid attitude when it comes to the second-largest Smash tournament. Seriously. No. They don't need Sm4sh.

 

[Vincent21]

It's a joke :v

 

[T0MMY]

Insufficient testing is such a crappy argument, yeah let's assume they are utterly broken and unusable. That's the starting point of the naysayers, who fail to grasp that no amount of testing will ever compare to what we will get from actually having them on. If it turns out they are actually broken, then just ****ing ban them, no loss.

Could this is be a short-sighted issue? Let's step back a bit in time instead:
Having Items on with the first Brawl tourney at Evo hurt the image so badly because the Melee scene (and other fighters) were grinning the whole time - "Not Competitive" became the stepping stone to Brawl's image.
Smash Wii U is in a similar situation where people are just waiting to kill it for not being "competitive" and Evo is the perfect chance again. I don't want to be the doomspeaker, but this is just a plain recipe being repeated and I don't want the same results.
Chances are we don't have a disaster like Items were certain to cause, but the probability is still very much a reality and holding off just one year would solve the problem. Let vanilla have it's time and make change from there with whatever toppings you'd like, but jumping straight into this is not the wisest option.

**** will never be ready. But if custom moves being on becomes the norm people will adjust in a month. There is no reason not to have customs on.

If it's not ready in a year then I would seriously doubt the competitive value of Customs.
Just making a statement saying "there is no reason not to have customs on" is not going to cut it for me, sorry.
A major rules change needs reason for the change, not shifting the burden of proof on others to need reason not to do this.

If customs are allowed, and there is either a gamebreaking bug or something is overpowered, it can be banned. Problem solved, with little to no repercussions.

This is what is called "rose tinted glasses" - Absolutely only good things will come of this. Nothing bad.
Well, no, because gamebreaking bugs and janky gameplay and exploits that people will abuse could lead many people to see Smash Wii U as that and only that. Most people will be exposed to SSBU the first time at Evo and first impressions are the strongest. Potentially bad things become compounded and lasting; I just have to point to Brawl's stigma after its first Evo appearance.
So now you might get an image of how this could actually be very bad for everyone overall and start to understand why holding off for just a year is when everyone can get behind customs happily.

Because of this, a greater divide happens between people who believe customs are "right" vs those who believe customs are "wrong". And this divide could potentially lead to customs never being allowed, due to misinformation. Because people are easily mislead by the opinions of others, especially when time is a large factor.

So everyone quit talking in terms of "us" vs "them" and start talking about what works for everyone.
The way that talk goes is someone is going to be upset when the real possibility of everyone being ok with the progress happens.

Jumping into a pool of cold water is easier than trying to ease your way in, because you will keep retracting your foot out of reflex due to your body not being adjusted to the temperature. If that is the case, I say that the best solution is to just jump right on in, because the water is fine.

Hypothermia
Your analogy is more akin to a local where not much comes out of problems, but the reality is Evo would be more like a sinking ship. Hypothermia for the entire Smash Community is like having the S.S. Titanic, which coincidentally they said was perfectly fine "unsinkable" and that no harm would come about not having proper amount of lifeboats.
I'm not getting aboard the Custom movement and will hope all who do don't meet up with an iceberg like the Titanic did.

I don't see why they don't have enough skills to not be able to react/adapt to custom moves in the same manner, as well. They will be fine.

If you're so confident maybe you'd like to pay their entrance fee.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Could this is be a short-sighted issue? Let's step back a bit in time instead:
Having Items on with the first Brawl tourney at Evo hurt the image so badly because the Melee scene (and other fighters) were grinning the whole time - "Not Competitive" became the stepping stone to Brawl's image.
Smash Wii U is in a similar situation where people are just waiting to kill it for not being "competitive" and Evo is the perfect chance again. I don't want to be the doomspeaker, but this is just a plain recipe being repeated and I don't want the same results.
Chances are we don't have a disaster like Items were certain to cause, but the probability is still very much a reality and holding off just one year would solve the problem. Let vanilla have it's time and make change from there with whatever toppings you'd like, but jumping straight into this is not the wisest option.


If it's not ready in a year then I would seriously doubt the competitive value of Customs.
Just making a statement saying "there is no reason not to have customs on" is not going to cut it for me, sorry.
A major rules change needs reason for the change, not shifting the burden of proof on others to need reason not to do this.

Items are not customs, and that was not what led to Brawls demise anyway, brawl had a good run of several years which ended for reasons having nothing to do with items being on in that 1 tourney. The probability you speak of is very much not a reality. The recipe you are talking about isn't what you claim it to be, and the ingredients are different this time around regardless.

Moreover, customs are vanilla. They are not a dlc of some kind. Just why should we arbitrarily limit the game again? You can only say "let vanilla have some time" because customs off has become the standard for no good reason. The scene is ready for customs, it has been ever since ampharos demonstrated how they could be implemented without becoming a time sink. The people who think it isn't ready lean back on baseless conservatism and/or doomsaying.

If the scene isn't "ready" in a year that doesn't say anything about the competitive value of Customs. But it speaks miles about the irrationality of human beings.

The burden of proof IS on the nay-sayers, they are the ones who want to arbitrarily limit the game. We know what we are missing out on, and we are supposed to keep on missing out on it based on vague speculations.