Tenative Evo Ruleset (Discussion Welcome)

[[Deuce]]

Really, because I checked the Twitter account and I'm not seeing any of this. Maybe I'm blind?
Well they honestly might be just general trolls. Like, if it's obvious, then whatever. But I don't think people should be making accusations and feeding this "divide" we have off of non-evidence. People made a ruckus at Apex when the Melee finals were postponed and rather than assume that the crowd was just upset to wait the way any fan would be and acting inappropriately, kinda like how you might see people do at the Superbowl, people just assumed it was more Melee elitists. And I think this needs to stop.

What you mean like JuggleRob pasting a bunch of stats that aren't reflective of what actually happened?
Robin Harn ‏@JuggleRob Feb 10
@EvilMrWizard Either way, absolutely do not do 3 stocks or bo5 sets for Smash 4, no matter how much people plead

This guy doesn't even follow smash 4 just melee and his tweet is the first one you see in reply
Manuel Perez ‏@Manuchi_23 Feb 10
@EvilMrWizard please 5 minutes MAX and BoF 5 sets only in wf lf and gf

Whatever, I'm over it. Surprised so many can just take stuff like this laying down

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

I think there should be four starter stages so as to "balance" the stage roster out between starters and counterpicks. That way you would have 4 starters and 5 counterpicks.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

What you mean like JuggleRob pasting a bunch of stats that aren't reflective of what actually happened?
Robin Harn ‏@JuggleRob Feb 10
@EvilMrWizard Either way, absolutely do not do 3 stocks or bo5 sets for Smash 4, no matter how much people plead

This guy doesn't even follow smash 4 just melee and his tweet is the first one you see in reply
Manuel Perez ‏@Manuchi_23 Feb 10
@EvilMrWizard please 5 minutes MAX and BoF 5 sets only in wf lf and gf

Whatever, I'm over it. Surprised so many can just take stuff like this laying down

It's less about taking stuff lying down and more about trying to be productive. Even if there were a hypothetical conspiracy of Melee players working to sabotage smash 4, a positive minded, polite attitude to lobby for our game to be the best game it can be would still be correct since that's simply the most likely approach to get the outcomes we want (and also makes the community a more pleasant place to be as a non-trivial bonus). In this case though, I think it's more a case of "trolls like to troll" and not anything like a Melee-centric anti-4 campaign, and the best way to handle trolls anywhere on the internet is simply not to feed them.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I posted this in the comments of the article on the front page, and I'm gonna post it again here.

Nintendo's involvement in the Smash community has been very divisive. I have for the most part supported it in the past, and stuck to that despite all the evidence to the contrary. But this is finally the breaking point. Nintendo's involvement in the Smash community is bad. All they're doing is hurting the community, restricting it, shoving their commercials into our streams, forcing one of the biggest Smash streamers to stop streaming one of our most beloved games, and making our tournaments as boring as possible by limiting our stage list because they're afraid someone will sue them (as if). I love Nintendo, but they need to get the **** out of the Smash community and stay out, because all they are is a cancerous tumor which is doing its best to destroy us. I don't give a **** that they made the game, they need to leave us alone and stop trying to ruin our community. The Melee community survived without any help from Nintendo, and the Smash 4 community can survive without help from Nintendo too.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Are we to believe that if not for Nintendo's cooperation with EVO organizers, EVO would magically not have to worry about music rights in the streams?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Are we to believe that if not for Nintendo's cooperation with EVO organizers, EVO would magically not have to worry about music rights in the streams?

EVO most likely would not give it a second thought, because really, the number of music tracks which could POTENTIALLY be a problem are few enough already, and the chances of anyone actually getting sued are slim to none. And the only songs I can think of that pose a problem would be third party songs, and I can't think of any of those on Skyloft or Kongo Jungle. And if it really is a problem, why not just set those songs to never appear?

For the purpose of bumping the starter list up to 5, if we agree Lylat will almost always get struck

Speak for yourself. As a Robin main, I love Lylat. I would strike Final Destination and Smashville in a 5-stage starter list.

 

[lordvaati]

1. Going by how Melee, Brawl,and now Smash 64 are going, we would have had a stage list this small anyway in the future.
2. you guys have to remember, the 2 stock 5 min ruleset ruleset is as such not only because it's Nintendo's online standard, but also because of timing issues with all the other games that are on main stage. It's just like what they did with m,elee onl;y having GFs be Bo5 rather then all of Top 8.
3. wee need to stop with the theorymon crap. Cutoms NEED to be tested, in a MAJOR tournament setting, in front of a large audience. I know people worry about some being potentially broken like the windboxes, or Fatal Judge or whatever, but that's the point-we NEED to see how bad they are with major players so we can reevaluate for the future. besides, this is EVO. they play Marvel, which is infamous for it's broken **** and they LOVE it, so at the very least it can bring an entertaining debut for them, because I do not wanna see this get booed off stage like what happened to TvC and Injustice.

 

[Ulevo]

What you mean like JuggleRob pasting a bunch of stats that aren't reflective of what actually happened?
Robin Harn ‏@JuggleRob Feb 10
@EvilMrWizard Either way, absolutely do not do 3 stocks or bo5 sets for Smash 4, no matter how much people plead

This guy doesn't even follow smash 4 just melee and his tweet is the first one you see in reply
Manuel Perez ‏@Manuchi_23 Feb 10
@EvilMrWizard please 5 minutes MAX and BoF 5 sets only in wf lf and gf

Whatever, I'm over it. Surprised so many can just take stuff like this laying down

And? Did you watch Apex? You saw how long those matches took with only two stocks. Enough evidence to not go 3 stock if you ask me. And if I like Melee and I want the tournament to run on time, and feel that Smash 4 playing at 2 stocks is the way to go, what's wrong with that?

This is the kind of **** I'm talking about. This is not an example of a Melee extremist ****ting on Smash 4. This is an assumption about a particular player leading to the age old argument of Melee vs Smash Sequels and it's old.

 

[Octagon]

3. wee need to stop with the theorymon crap. Cutoms NEED to be tested, in a MAJOR tournament setting, in front of a large audience. I know people worry about some being potentially broken like the windboxes, or Fatal Judge or whatever, but that's the point-we NEED to see how bad they are with major players so we can reevaluate for the future. besides, this is EVO. they play Marvel, which is infamous for it's broken **** and they LOVE it, so at the very least it can bring an entertaining debut for them, because I do not wanna see this get booed off stage like what happened to TvC and Injustice.

Agreed, it would make Evo an even bigger deal cause everyone would tune in to see how drastic customs will change the metagame. Customs were used for the 3ds Open Tournament...but that also had the smash ball and every stage available so...

 

[HeroMystic]

SoCal has done 2 stock 5 minutes. Im in favor heres my thoughts on it.

Either match ups are going to go to time or theyre not. Some match-ups last less then a minute others lead to timeouts. Unlike Brawl where matches were consistently long and a shorter timer might pressure people to timeout that would otherwise end in a KO, characters like Rosalina or campy pac-man seem to have no issue with time-out strategies. 5 minute matches actually make time-outs bearable and interesting, and reduce the time of MU's that we would expect will go to time regardless. MU's that move fast are unaffected.

It really depends if one believes that timeout strategies are valid or not. I made a thread about this before, and the general consensus from what I've seen is "it's valid, but it's lame" and generally we should prevent it from happening, but that's a small sample size in comparison to the entire community.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So long as Paletuna and Mii's have their specials available I am indifferent to what the state of the custom ruleset is otherwise at this current moment in time.

 

[Octagon]

Palutena would be used a lot more I feel if customs were allowed. Most customs only give minor changes but Palutenas customs are all very drastic changes

 

[Thinkaman]

We keep hearing about various bottom tier characters who become "top 10, easily" with customs.

Then there's Palutena, who actually does.

 

[WritersBlah]

We keep hearing about various bottom tier characters who become "top 10, easily" with customs.

Then there's Palutena, who actually does.

There are several bottom tier characters that become exponentially better when given the option to use custom moves, some of which I've seen you argue for yourself. Off the top of my head, , , and practically rely on customs to be considered viable in competitive play.

edit: Not saying doesn't benefit though. Lord knows she freaking does.

 

[Octagon]

There are several bottom tier characters that become exponentially better when given the option to use custom moves, some of which I've seen you argue for yourself. Off the top of my head, , , and practically rely on customs to be considered viable in competitive play.

edit: Not saying doesn't benefit though. Lord knows she freaking does.

Ganondorf gets a tipper on his custom Warlock Punch. That is literally terrifying omfg

 

[[Deuce]]

And? Did you watch Apex? You saw how long those matches took with only two stocks. Enough evidence to not go 3 stock if you ask me. And if I like Melee and I want the tournament to run on time, and feel that Smash 4 playing at 2 stocks is the way to go, what's wrong with that?

This is the kind of **** I'm talking about. This is not an example of a Melee extremist ****ting on Smash 4. This is an assumption about a particular player leading to the age old argument of Melee vs Smash Sequels and it's old.

Yes, I watched Apex and I thought the timing was FINE. Take out some coaching/handwarming time, make the sets bo3 except for finals, and you have a decent setup for 3 stocks. What assumption? Being non-smash 4 players and making comments on the smash 4 ruleset are both FACTS.

And if I like Melee and I want the tournament to run on time, and feel that Smash 4 playing at 2 stocks is the way to go, what's wrong with that?

Do you seriously not see the problem with this sentence..? What if I like Smash 4 and wanted the tournament to run on time, and feel that Melee 1 stock 1 minute is the way to go? Just because you have bias for one game doesn't give you the liberty to provide input on the ruleset for another game that you have no interest in

 

[Ulevo]

Yes, I watched Apex and I thought the timing was FINE. Take out some coaching/handwarming time, make the sets bo3 except for finals, and you have a decent setup for 3 stocks. What assumption? Being non-smash 4 players and making comments on the smash 4 ruleset are both FACTS.

I'm glad you know the personal status of all the audience members. Your self reassurance is great.

Do you seriously not see the problem with this sentence..? What if I like Smash 4 and wanted the tournament to run on time, and feel that Melee 1 stock 1 minute is the way to go? Just because you have bias for one game doesn't give you the liberty to provide input on the ruleset for another game that you have no interest in

This is a stupid comparison. There's nothing wrong with Melee's current stock count, nor its time limit. There is a debatable problem, as shown at Apex, with the current stock and time set for Smash Wii U. These are reasonable concerns, not arbitrary bias.

 

[Thinkaman]

There are several bottom tier characters that become exponentially better when given the option to use custom moves, some of which I've seen you argue for yourself. Off the top of my head, , , and practically rely on customs to be considered viable in competitive play.

I mean, you're preaching to the pope here. I'm not saying other characters don't benefit greatly, just that Palutena is the only one who actually skyrockets into the top tiers.

Many, like Ganon and WFT, simply go from "dubiously viable" to "definitely viable."

And that's good!

 

[Luigi player]

What's with omega stages? I guess they aren't allowed because of the music of some stages as well. Or maybe just some omegas aren't allowed...

 

[Thinkaman]

Correct, it's a music issue.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This is a stupid comparison. There's nothing wrong with Melee's current stock count, nor its time limit. There is a debatable problem, as shown at Apex, with the current stock and time set for Smash Wii U. These are reasonable concerns, not arbitrary bias.

Really? Because I think Melee would have run a lot faster with 3 stocks, 5 minutes. I mean, it took forever at APEX. A good half-hour longer than Sm4sh did, and we know how slow that game is right now.

People need to stop ******** about Sm4sh taking forever. It doesn't. It's not as slow as Brawl was, it took less time than Melee at APEX for top 8, and there's no reason to believe that it's that slow. Just stop. And stop trying to use that as a reason for banning stages. If I hear "it takes too long on Kongo/Wuhu/Skyloft" one more ****ing time...

 

[M15t3R E]

I personally prefer 3 stocks because it allows players to adapt to each other and make comebacks. In fact, adapting will become even more complicated if customs, something I and most of the community wants, are in. But I respect the decision to go with 2 if time is the concern. A step in the right direction towards alleviating this issue would be to BAN COACHING!

 

[Vincent21]

People like to say we "need" custom moves to make a showing in EVO to give them a future or at least prove their bad for the future, but uh...

You realize experimenting that drastically with EVO with the full understanding there is no guarantee, and actually a very real possibility, of very problematic developments (unknown bugs, dramatically powerful movesets) are basically treating EVO like its throwaway, right?

If we're literally just going to use EVO to conduct a wide scale experiment we're choosing to undercut the event itself by placing the game's potential development OVER the players themselves.

Or to put that another way; I'd be a little less thrilled holding up an Evo trophy as a guinea pig than I would as a competitor.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

^ There are games confirmed for the EVO line-up that haven't even been released yet.

Using the next month and a half to collect some real-world data on customs would probably be more useful than concern-trolling.

 

[webbedspace]

Let's stop quarreling about stock count for a few posts and turn our eyes to a new question: IF customs don't make the cut, will the Mii Fighters be allowed, and, more saliently, will movesets other than the accursed 1111 be allowed?!

I hope that in the event customs get the thumbs-down, people are ready to prosecute the case for at least adding 2222 and 3333 (or preferably 1122 for Puncher, 1321 for Fencer, and 3113 for Sharpshooter.)

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Let's stop quarreling about stock count for a few posts and turn our eyes to a new question: IF customs don't make the cut, will the Mii Fighters be allowed, and, more saliently, will movesets other than the accursed 1111 be allowed?!

I hope that in the event customs get the thumbs-down, people are ready to prosecute the case for at least adding 2222 and 3333 (or preferably 1122 for Puncher, 1321 for Fencer, and 3113 for Sharpshooter.)

If Mii Fighters are allowed to have more than 1111, the same should be done for Palutena. Her movesets are already unlocked from the start just like the Mii Fighters.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't think we need EVO as some grand experiment to see if customs are good or not.

We've been able to play with them for 4 months. We know they are good, or at least those who have played with them do.

EVO should have customs because it's just a better game with them. If we weren't confident about this, I'd obviously be against it.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I don't think we need EVO as some grand experiment to see if customs are good or not.

We've been able to play with them for 4 months. We know they are good, or at least those who have played with them do.

EVO should have customs because it's just a better game with them. If we weren't confident about this, I'd obviously be against it.

Then by this analogy, EVO won't be the experiment, but the publishing of the experiments already done

 

[ValiantNorth]

I don't think we need EVO as some grand experiment to see if customs are good or not.

We've been able to play with them for 4 months. We know they are good, or at least those who have played with them do.

EVO should have customs because it's just a better game with them. If we weren't confident about this, I'd obviously be against it.

Then by this analogy, EVO won't be the experiment, but the publishing of the experiments already done

Or possibly just the confirmation of the Experiments results, we still wont know until a week after EVO. Give time for stuff to settle and opinions to start trickling in.

 

[Terotrous]

If Mii Fighters are allowed to have more than 1111, the same should be done for Palutena. Her movesets are already unlocked from the start just like the Mii Fighters.

Can we please stop espousing this clearly incorrect statement? The Mii characters can use all of their moves even when customs are off. Palutena can't. Even though you start with Palutena's moves unlocked, the game treats her like all other characters, while the Miis are a specific exception.

 

[T0MMY]

Anyone who is actually attending Evo to compete should have more of a say on what rules they compete by then the keyboard warriors whose controllers have collected dust already.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Anyone who is actually attending Evo to compete should have more of a say on what rules they compete by then the keyboard warriors whose controllers have collected dust already.

What about those of us who want to compete and who use their controllers regularly but won't be attending EVO specifically, due to distance and such?

 

[T0MMY]

What about those of us who want to compete and who use their controllers regularly but won't be attending EVO specifically, due to distance and such?

The question really would be answered after another question: Where do you compete?
But a good response would be to get involved with your local community and help network your state/region so your region can have a say in national matters with a representative.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

The question really would be answered after another question: Where do you compete?
But a good response would be to get involved with your local community and help network your state/region so your region can have a say in national matters with a representative.

My region is New York, I think we're good. I do actually compete, but college gets in the way of my going to tourneys as much as I'd like, and I'm not as much in tune with NY's positions as Id like to be

 

[Conda]

Curse Nintendo for following copyright law. How dare they treat Competitive Smash events like an actual professional broadcasted event with laws that must be followed.

Wanting esports to grow means accepting that we can't always be cool with the renegade-esque 'eff copyright and laws and advertising and etc' attitude. We have to grow beyond that. Nitpicking over music rights may be annoying, but welcome to the world of broadcasting and production. If you don't want to deal with the ugly aspects of being a professionally-treated competitive gaming scene, then stick to the grassroots and leave out the concept of growth.

Streams are awesome as they are and the Smash scene can continue without big sponsors like Nintendo who are invested in the game. But the legal issues still exist - if Nintendo doesn't have the rights to stream some music, we don't either. That usually isn't a problem though because companies generally don't care if we break the law and use stuff without permission (screw those amazing composers and musicians, right?).

The majority of the corporate and production world doesn't take competitive game streaming seriously, which is changing. This is great when you want to go by unnoticed when using materials and IPs and art that aren't yours to use. Then you can 'grow and grow' all you want, but stating your growth is 100% due to you is an ignorant and incorrect statement. Using smash music, art, and so forth as assets in your productions means you didn't have to get permissions or hire someone to make music/art for your productions. This means a huge savings in business start-up and production costs. Nothing in the world is free, folks.

Nintendo does take us seriously, and with that comes some real-world adult stuff. Yeah it sucks, but those who understand how things work aren't as bothered by it because we realise the world has its rules. Having to deal with some real-world law stuff is what being part of a professional and legitimate industry is about. If we are going to be a professional and mature competitive event scene, we have to not whine about this kind of stuff.

 

[T0MMY]

My region is New York, I think we're good. I do actually compete, but college gets in the way of my going to tourneys as much as I'd like, and I'm not as much in tune with NY's positions as Id like to be

So, if you are asking for my personal answer to this question then I would respond saying that you would have the most strength in having what rules the NY scene uses, then next strongest would be the tricities area, then next most strongest regarding the Atlantic Northeast, and finally the next strongest in what goes on nationally (I know of no global rulesets fully existing to be discussed so I omitted that).

With that said, since you are not attending Evo specifically, I think you should have your utmost say in the discussion the same you would for any national discussion. Maybe you are not the biggest voice on national issues but you certainly should have an Atlantic Northeast representative which commands a great deal of respect who could speak on your behalf.

This is why I've been asked to help with a system for a national network for something like that to facilitate voices be heard. As well off as I may be to design such a communication network, it is asking too much for just one individual to get that started. If you like the idea, please ask your TOs about helping facilitate it.

 

[Terotrous]

Curse Nintendo for following copyright law. How dare they treat Competitive Smash events like an actual professional broadcasted event with laws that must be followed.

Wanting esports to grow means accepting that we can't always be cool with the renegade-esque 'eff copyright and laws and advertising and etc' attitude. We have to grow beyond that. Nitpicking over music rights may be annoying, but welcome to the world of broadcasting and production. If you don't want to deal with the ugly aspects of being a professionally-treated competitive gaming scene, then stick to the grassroots and leave out the concept of growth.

Streams are awesome as they are and the Smash scene can continue without big sponsors like Nintendo who are invested in the game. But the legal issues still exist - if Nintendo doesn't have the rights to stream some music, we don't either. That usually isn't a problem though because companies generally don't care if we break the law and use stuff without permission (screw those amazing composers and musicians, right?).

The majority of the corporate and production world doesn't take competitive game streaming seriously, which is changing. This is great when you want to go by unnoticed when using materials and IPs and art that aren't yours to use. Then you can 'grow and grow' all you want, but stating your growth is 100% due to you is an ignorant and incorrect statement. Using smash music, art, and so forth as assets in your productions means you didn't have to get permissions or hire someone to make music/art for your productions. This means a huge savings in business start-up and production costs. Nothing in the world is free, folks.

Nintendo does take us seriously, and with that comes some real-world adult stuff. Yeah it sucks, but those who understand how things work aren't as bothered by it because we realise the world has its rules. Having to deal with some real-world law stuff is what being part of a professional and legitimate industry is about. If we are going to be a professional and mature competitive event scene, we have to not whine about this kind of stuff.

If they're going to take the streaming part of the game seriously, they need to anticipate this problem and prepare accordingly, likely by giving us the option to only play approved music for streaming or something. This solution is really stupid.

 

[Conda]

If they're going to take the streaming part of the game seriously, they need to anticipate this problem and prepare accordingly, likely by giving us the option to only play approved music for streaming or something. This solution is really stupid.

I agree, and that's a more sensible way to discuss what's going on.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If they're going to take the streaming part of the game seriously, they need to anticipate this problem and prepare accordingly, likely by giving us the option to only play approved music for streaming or something. This solution is really stupid.

A theory I've seen (I think by AA) is that EVO hashed out a contract of some sort with Nintendo a while ago and used the Apex rules as a template since that's really all they had to go on. Of course they can't just modify the terms after the fact so now we're stuck with that.

Building on that a bit, it may be a consequence of the exact legalese used. Instead of "streams may not play music tracks XYZ (being the ones that have issues attached), it may have been "streams may play music tracks ABC" where ABC are a list of BGMs from FD/Battlefield/Smashville/etc. So now they're locked into stages that play that music and we have the stage list.

IANAL so that's 100% speculation.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

If they're going to take the streaming part of the game seriously, they need to anticipate this problem and prepare accordingly, likely by giving us the option to only play approved music for streaming or something. This solution is really stupid.

This this this. They ****ing give us the option to change the music frequencies in the game, but they would rather just ban stages entirely? That makes no sense at all.