Technical things?

[4 Aces]

Yup. And its a bad habit almost every Marth has. Even the great ones. Marth is such a % dependent character that people pummel while they look at their opponent's % to start up the chainthrow. Trouble is, against smart people, 1 pummel at early % (up to mid teens usually) means a grab release. One of the hardest things about playing Marth is keeping track of not only your own % but your opponent's -- its not like Fox where you want to pretty much nair no matter what the situation is; and pummeling is generally a sign that you aren't properly keeping track of the %s like you should be.

Generally watch Marth videos and ask yourself "why did that CG stop prematurely?" Despite how often people say Marth should 0-death off grabs, it rarely happens, and most grabs, even among the highest level Marths, lead to marginal % gain. Its usually because of the bad habits of the Marth player, whether it be pummeling, utilting too early, misreading a percent, gambling with a dthrow fsmash, JC during a standing chaingrab (also one of the worst habits Marths have; don't jump cancel when you stand still and grab for the chainthrow. if a Fox is at 0% and you throw him up, just press Z. not jump+Z), etc. Minimize those habits and the combo game becomes more consistent.

Thanks. Does jc grabbing take that many more frames than simply standing and grabbing?

 

[makoforce]

why do i get trashed for using the control stick the X and Y buttons i use for Wave dashing
and JC grabbing because of the jump and grab but the purpose of JC grabbing is because dash grabbing is too laggy

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Thanks. Does jc grabbing take that many more frames than simply standing and grabbing?

Yup. Not much (3 frames iirc) but enough to matter in a chaingrab. Only JC when dashing so you don't dashgrab.

 

[booshk]

why do i get trashed for using the control stick the X and Y buttons i use for Wave dashing
and JC grabbing because of the jump and grab but the purpose of JC grabbing is because dash grabbing is too laggy

.......what

 

[edgeluca]

I'm so confused

 

[Dark Sonic]

What percent should I start doing pivot grabs during my chaingrab on Falco? I've kinda got the feeling down for Fox, but I often let the Falco player jump out.

The problem could be that I dash too far before pivoting, or that I start the dash late, but I just want to be sure of the percentage window I should be looking for.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

What percent should I start doing pivot grabs during my chaingrab on Falco? I've kinda got the feeling down for Fox, but I often let the Falco player jump out.

The problem could be that I dash too far before pivoting, or that I start the dash late, but I just want to be sure of the percentage window I should be looking for.

I do it around 26ish.

 

[NTMR]

This thread is amazing, learning so much right now.
Props to Crimson Blur for writing up that huge list of stuff, highlighted a lot of stuff I need to work on, now I can just refer to it whenever.

One thing though:

Try to add variations to stuff I said too; there is so much I left out. Stuff like dtilt->hold for walk->dd quick wavedash back ff grab ledge->dair ledgehop

Wouldn't it be faster to hold away from the ledge so that you end up facing backwards on dtilts IASA frame, and then just wavedash back to fast fall ledge grab instead of putting a dash dance in there? Then you'd just have dtilt -> hold back -> wd ff ledgegrab -> dair ledgehop. Or am I missing something here?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

One thing though:
Wouldn't it be faster to hold away from the ledge so that you end up facing backwards on dtilts IASA frame, and then just wavedash back to fast fall ledge grab instead of putting a dash dance in there? Then you'd just have dtilt -> hold back -> wd ff ledgegrab -> dair ledgehop. Or am I missing something here?

You do it so that you reduce your WD distance. If your dtilt is spaced towards the ledge, you dash forward to gain some distance, press back quick and then do a small WD to FF. Dashing is faster than WD so you should save some significant frames. Considering how tight the timing is to grab the ledge after a dtilt (they jump almost immediately usually), I think its an important addition.

 

[NTMR]

You do it so that you reduce your WD distance. If your dtilt is spaced towards the ledge, you dash forward to gain some distance, press back quick and then do a small WD to FF. Dashing is faster than WD so you should save some significant frames. Considering how tight the timing is to grab the ledge after a dtilt (they jump almost immediately usually), I think its an important addition.

Ah I see, I hadn't thought about wd vs dd speed. Makes sense, plus for some reason it seams a lot easier to throw a dd in there vs what I was saying.

 

[Tero.]

Hm, other than what was already mentioned, I'd say some important tech to learn:

1. quick uairs. this is vital. get a handicapped bowser to the top platform of yoshis and perform uairs. make sure they hit every time or you are going late.
16. shield to stop momentum before aerials. Something I am trying to get used to. Basically shield right before you jump so you go straight up. Great for uair chains (a lot of times your momentum sends you past your opponent when you don't do this and therefore makes it really hard for follow up).

1. You don't have to be fast to hit people on the top platform of YS. You can also hit them if you Uair at the peak of your jump. Anyway quik uairs are still important.

16. This doesn't really work if you asap jump oos or it might only work in the initial dash frames, during the full run it's generally better to just press back right before you jump.

Other than that good stuff.

Oh and someone tell me what a Tomahawk grab is and why it has such a stupid name.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

empty shorthop grab

its stupid because rick named it

 

[Tero.]

Oh, with Sheik we call that "Amsah jumping" or "the Amsah".

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

1. You don't have to be fast to hit people on the top platform of YS. You can also hit them if you Uair at the peak of your jump. Anyway quik uairs are still important.

Yeah, you don't have to be very fast to do YS but for beginners its a place to start. Otherwise I don't really know a method for practicing quick uairs. Plus, its a tad bit harder when you try to move and uair.

Another good practice is dashing off the edge of a lower platform on Yoshi's (much easier) or Battlefield (hard) and hitting a CPU standing on the edge of the top platform with a uair. Waveland, runoff, uair, ff is a pretty good routine, particularly if you can make it fast.

16. This doesn't really work if you asap jump oos or it might only work in the initial dash frames, during the full run it's generally better to just press back right before you jump.

Uh yes it works. Just press shield then jump really quickly.

I don't really do the pressing back thing, that might be a good idea. I just crouch at full run tbh.

 

[edgeluca]

Oh, with Sheik we call that "Amsah jumping" or "the Amsah".

I approve of the Amsah tech

 

[mers]

What percent should I start doing pivot grabs during my chaingrab on Falco? I've kinda got the feeling down for Fox, but I often let the Falco player jump out.

The problem could be that I dash too far before pivoting, or that I start the dash late, but I just want to be sure of the percentage window I should be looking for.

Pivot grabbing shouldn't stop them from jumping out, AFAIK. It just allows you to grab them when they could normally shine you out of it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i believe it covers both options, if ur frame perfect. i remember from some of my old AR tests that fox's jump takes like 5 frames in order to leave the zone covered by marth's grab.

 

[Diatenshi]

Having trouble with autocancelled nairs, like its just a SHFFL Nair that is done as soon as you can, landing just after the second slash, well i get all that done, it just doesnt... cancel

if i L-cancel it seems a little faster than usual but im just tricking myself into believing that, since it shouldnt have to be l-cancelled

anyone have a video to demonstrate it or anything?

 

[stelzig]

There's not much to demonstrate, you already described how to do it yourself. That said you don't always want to do the autocancel Nair. Sometimes it's better to just make the second slash lower and l-cancel. If you ask me it's not even one of the more important things to do, but practicing doing quick aerials in general probably wouldn't be a bad idea... And here this would automatically be included.

 

[Diatenshi]

well then i just cant get it to autocancel...
oh well

 

[stelzig]

Then you don't Nair quickly enough. Try doing it in 2/3 speed or something and see if you get it to autocancel then.

 

[mers]

i believe it covers both options, if ur frame perfect. i remember from some of my old AR tests that fox's jump takes like 5 frames in order to leave the zone covered by marth's grab.

Right, it does. I was just making the point that pivot grabbing is no faster than regular grabbing. If they're jumping out of your chaingrabs, adding pivot grabbing won't help. Just learn to grab faster, or start utilting.

But if they're shining out, add in some pivot grabs.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

So I've been practicing my uairs and doing some testing. As far as I can tell Roy/Falco is the cutoff for when rising uair can scoop a standing opponent. Those 2 are fairly difficult, so I'd recommend practicing on taller characters and working your way down. I don't think its humanly possible to scoop a Falco with cstick holding the controller normally (no claw); I am trying to learn more A because I can do it much faster that way and I recommend others to do the same. Note that Marth can rising uair small opponents (incl. Fox) with his weak hitbox (arm, inner sword) since it is lower than the tip (see the hitbox thread), but can't scoop them (tipper uair).

Anyway, earlier in this thread I was talking about how to practice quick uairs and as far as I know, trying to scoop characters of various heights is the best way.

 

[OverLord]

I jump with the stick for rising Uairs.

 

[makoforce]

So I've been practicing my uairs and doing some testing. As far as I can tell Roy/Falco is the cutoff for when rising uair can scoop a standing opponent. Those 2 are fairly difficult, so I'd recommend practicing on taller characters and working your way down. I don't think its humanly possible to scoop a Falco with cstick holding the controller normally (no claw); I am trying to learn more A because I can do it much faster that way and I recommend others to do the same. Note that Marth can rising uair small opponents (incl. Fox) with his weak hitbox (arm, inner sword) since it is lower than the tip (see the hitbox thread), but can't scoop them (tipper uair).

Anyway, earlier in this thread I was talking about how to practice quick uairs and as far as I know, trying to scoop characters of various heights is the best way.

can you explain "scooping"

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

can you explain "scooping"

Tipping someone with rising uair on the ground. So, stand next to your opponent, jump, uair immediately, and tip it so he gets sent upward.

You can practice running ones too ofc.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Woops double post.

 

[makoforce]

i like to do retreating upairs if they tip. they're just too good.

 

[mers]

So I've been practicing my uairs and doing some testing. As far as I can tell Roy/Falco is the cutoff for when rising uair can scoop a standing opponent. Those 2 are fairly difficult, so I'd recommend practicing on taller characters and working your way down. I don't think its humanly possible to scoop a Falco with cstick holding the controller normally (no claw); I am trying to learn more A because I can do it much faster that way and I recommend others to do the same. Note that Marth can rising uair small opponents (incl. Fox) with his weak hitbox (arm, inner sword) since it is lower than the tip (see the hitbox thread), but can't scoop them (tipper uair).

Anyway, earlier in this thread I was talking about how to practice quick uairs and as far as I know, trying to scoop characters of various heights is the best way.

It's definitely possible to do with C-stick. I assume you have to do the uair on the first frame that you leave the ground, which means you have 5 or 6 frames to go from X (or Y) to c-up.

If you just keep practicing, you can get that fast. I'm at the point now where I can do JC usmashes with X and the c-stick, which just happened from trying rising uair with Falcon for so long.

Not saying A is any worse, just that you can do it either way.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

It's definitely possible to do with C-stick. I assume you have to do the uair on the first frame that you leave the ground, which means you have 5 or 6 frames to go from X (or Y) to c-up.

If you just keep practicing, you can get that fast. I'm at the point now where I can do JC usmashes with X and the c-stick, which just happened from trying rising uair with Falcon for so long.

Not saying A is any worse, just that you can do it either way.

Gah I need to borrow your fingers. I can't go from y to up on c-stick in 5 frames to save my life. Can't scoop Falco with c-stick at all. Ganon I can, but never Falco.

I should probably get my spacies better so I improve my finger speed...

 

[Cactuar]

Could someone explain... why would a rising sh uair be better than grabbing them?

You guys practice the weirdest stuff >.>

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Could someone explain... why would a rising sh uair be better than grabbing them?

You guys practice the weirdest stuff >.>

No no you would never use it in match like that haha. Approaching with a running sh rising uair isn't a good approach at all. Its just a good way to practice getting your uairs as quick as possible.

 

[Cactuar]

Haha okay, well... why would you want to do it as soon as possible? Even with the tipper uair chase off uthrow on full left or right DI on spacies, you want to delay the uair coming out ever so slightly to make sure the uair tip doesn't miss iirc. And hitting the top platform on Yoshi's with a sh uair is a delayed uair as well...

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Haha okay, well... why would you want to do it as soon as possible? Even with the tipper uair chase off uthrow on full left or right DI on spacies, you want to delay the uair coming out ever so slightly to make sure the uair tip doesn't miss iirc. And hitting the top platform on Yoshi's with a sh uair is a delayed uair as well...

Just situational stuff. Someones falling down on you and you wanna uair quick. Extend your combo when they are above you. Some aerial combos on fastfallers (DJ quick uairs).

Besides, it looks cool.

 

[Cactuar]

Lol. I'll take your word for it. For each of your examples, I feel like there is a better choice tbh, but whatevs. Variety is always cool lol. I play too much theorysmash.

 

[makoforce]

scooping is used on brawl rising and falling upairs. Yea grabbing then would be much better. But if its that serious just practice your fairs to upairs. Double aerials ****.... at times. Or if your that close if ur feeling flashy jus WD back into a fsmash and it will tip.

 

[mers]

So, ledgehop neutral B regrab is NUTS. I have never ever once succeeded. As with most things in this thread, it's really not useful, but I still wanna do it. It's harder than uair regrab, right? I can't do that either.

I think my ledgehop timing is off, and I'm falling too far before I jump.

 

[townes]

So, ledgehop neutral B regrab is NUTS. I have never ever once succeeded. As with most things in this thread, it's really not useful, but I still wanna do it. It's harder than uair regrab, right? I can't do that either.

I think my ledgehop timing is off, and I'm falling too far before I jump.

You gotta use Y to jump. I'd ever done 1 in my entire life, then yesterday I went into training mode and did them in 1/4, 1/2, 2/3 etc until i can do them competently in game now. Worst case, I don't regrab and I upB. It's nuts. Although it still sucks, and I get shield grabbed sometimes for doing it because you get so high above the ledge. Lol, shield grabbing shield breaker, I suck.