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Technical things?

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Metameme, Aug 8, 2010.

  1. Metameme

    Metameme
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    Smash Apprentice

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    What are some good technical things to practice when I'm playing alone?

    I already practice empty pivots. auto-cancel nairs, platform wavelands.

    Any cool tricks I should try to get good at?
     
  2. painlord k11

    painlord k11
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    short hop shuffle aerials, reverse up B dolphin, jumping off stage forwards and reverse up B ing to the edge to grab it which turns you around this will help with gimps later. B side to up tilt, short hop up airs, from the ledge do aerials onto stage so your less predictable. practice ledge teching to back air so marth doesnt kill himself. practice wave washing, chain grabs and the other thing you can do at home is read all the marth guides charachter match ups and what not on the marth thread so good luck =D
     
  3. Phoenix~Lament

    Phoenix~Lament
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    What's wave washing? ^

    Also, if you can't already, practice short hop fair to waveland, short hop bair to double jump, short hop double fair, short hop fair uair, short hop fair dair. Ledge hop waveland back to the ledge. Abusing dtilt IASA frames faster, and turnaround utilts. Practice edge cancelling and just moving around faster.
     
  4. Tee ay eye

    Tee ay eye
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    -ledgehop neutral B regrab
    -edgecancels
    -shield drops
     
  5. edgeluca

    edgeluca
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    Powershielding.
     
  6. Tee ay eye

    Tee ay eye
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    Smash Hero

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    -pivots (namely fsmash)
    -chaingrabbing percentages
    -movement
     
  7. Bob Money

    Bob Money
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    How do you do this Tai? I can do it maybe 1/5 of time by pressing back on the stick the up to jump then B. This isn't very consistent for me. I was wondering if you have a better input.

    M2k says he presses down then lets go really fast...but that doesn't seem humanly possible.


    Thanks.
     
  8. I.B

    I.B
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    yea i can't do that **** either
     
  9. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    IB lies he ledgehop Bs like it's the only way to stall the edge.
     
  10. DJMirror

    DJMirror
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    I should make a updated tutorial vid.

    Someone should help me.

    After I finish some stuff of course
     
  11. earla

    earla
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    ok neutral b ledgestall is very simple

    use this technique:

    1. tilt down to drop slightly
    2. immediately press jump with Y and the tip of your thumb
    3. use the left side of your thumb to hit b.

    timing is almost simultaneous.

    very easy with this tech. though ^ enjoy.

    question.. how safe do you think this ledge stall is?

    ideas for follow ups? sb ledgestall - waveland onto stage?:)

    break those foxses shield then tipper them back off stage?:)
     
  12. Bob Money

    Bob Money
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    I tried your way fo doig, it I can get it about 1/3 of the time now. Thanks. I found out what really helps is doing it in traning mode at 1/2 speed. This allows you to see which part of the stall you're doing wrong. The fast fall, or just not pressing y+B fast enough. This is still mad hard though. I dunno about "very easy" though. How often do you mess this up? You must have robot like hands.
     
  13. mers

    mers
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    This may be the only super-challenging technique Marth has.

    Besides ledge-canceling his up-B I guess, but that's just silly.
     
  14. earla

    earla
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    i have it down 90% of the time in training.

    the most important part i find is getting the y > b almost simultaneous.

    you'll get it bro 100% of the time just play around with it

    what fast fall? theres no fast fall? slow fall
     
  15. Bob Money

    Bob Money
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    Yeah you're right, i only meant that doing it slow mo will let you see if you're doing the tilt down thing wrong and fast falling on accident before the Y jump.
     
  16. 4 Aces

    4 Aces
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    ****...#2 is going to be the hardest thing for me; I almost exclusively ledge hop with the control stick alone. Is it possible/reasonable to do it like that?

    Also, what's so special about Reverse Dolphin slashes? I used to see it on Marth Tutorials, but none of them ever explained why. Is it because of the trajectory? As far as I can tell they're the same.
     
  17. earla

    earla
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    personally i tried doing it with the control stick and couldn't do it at all. play around and see what works for you. good luck!
     
  18. mers

    mers
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    They're exactly the same, except the reverse one allows you to be guaranteed to only hit with the initial hitbox. All the other DS hitboxes are much less powerful, and weird spacing/DI can cause you to hit with one of those, ruining the knockback.
     
  19. TheCrimsonBlur

    TheCrimsonBlur
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    Hm, other than what was already mentioned, I'd say some important tech to learn:

    1. quick uairs. this is vital. get a handicapped bowser to the top platform of yoshis and perform uairs. make sure they hit every time or you are going late.
    2. utilt and uair transition. handicapped bowser again but on the lower platforms, but use different stages so you understand timings. test yourself on stadium, battlefield, yoshis, and dreamland (constant uairs here). alternate utilt and uair in various patterns to make it so that Bowser is basically always in hitstun.

    3. shield drop aerial walls. run, shield drop, double jump, aerials (double fair, fair->uair etc). Generally work on shield drops. Shield dropped wavelands, shield drop->normal land->shffl (or EMPTY hop, amazing mindgame), etc.
    4. Run-off fastfalls on platforms. Make sure you can run off a platform and fastfall 100% of the time. After you get that, mix in an aerial, a double jumped aerial, a waveland, or whatever you want. Never forget to do mixups after a normal land too; just land after a run-off and then try to do things (say, a shffl) immediately after landing lag.

    5. tilt transition timings. Use tilts as transitions during your SHFFLs and ground attacks. SHFFL something and tilt as fast as you can. especially important for utilt.
    6. dtilt IASA mastery. dtilt, hold for walk to trigger IASA, and then transition into whatever you want (wavedash, another dtilt, aerials, whatever).
    7. learn to dash after everything. helps in the fox matchup. use and aerial? dash. ftilt? dash. land on a platform? dash.
    8. dash cancelling with crouch. learn the extent of marths dashdance (its LONG) and when you have to crouch to cancel momentum. the use the crouch to do various mixups. dash up to the opponent, crouch, dash forward, pivot grab (grab them from behind). Lots of uses for this one; can help you become a lot faster.
    9. wavelands on platforms. just practice various sized wavelands (not just super long and in place, every size) on all stages. Make sure you can make waveland loops; like, waveland on platform, run-off fastfall off, waveland backwards, jump, waveland back on platform. and then add aerials in there lol. watch some spaceballs samus vids to see how cool this can be...waveland platform approaches are legit; work them into your game.
    10. ledge wavelands. waveland forward; waveland in place (RIGHT next to the ledge); waveland back (for bait), fastfall, jump, aerial; waveland back, double jump, land on low platform, etc.
    11. ledge aerials. These are obvious but its important to make sure you get them out as fast as possible. make sure you can make the first hit of the ledgehop nair come out when you are parallel with the stage (don't be ON the stage by the time its out). get your uairs, dairs, and fairs off ledge fast too. be able to float back dair (so that you have to up-B) and survive; this is fantastic vs. Peach (a normal ledgehop dair doesn't reach sometimes). ledgehop dair firefoxing CPUs to get the timing right.
    12. empty hop follow ups. empty hop in range of your fair (this is generally when you want to empty hop), fastfall, and follow with tomahawk grab, dash back pivot fsmash (if you are pro), waveland (very little utility), etc.
    13. oos options. This is really hard to practice on your own but try your best. hold shield and use a shield option. maybe use a computer to hit you with something and dair it or something. this is best learned in matches. getting a friend to laser you so you can wd oos through laser pressure (shortened wavedashes) is vital. also approach with shield (like dash->shield or wd->shield) and quick oos option...great v. Puff (oos fair rapes after a bair). shield drop oos on platforms after hitstun is pretty cool if you can learn it.
    14. quickness off wavedashes. wavedash forward, pivot, dair. things like that...make sure there is no stall time after your wavedash. be precise with that **** too...make enemy targets at weird distances and see if you can hit with the tipper dair every time.
    15. as ppl said, practice chaingrabbing. use training mode's "escape" CPU setting to work on different DIs. lvl 4 CPUs also DI relatively OK. include odd chaingrabs (fthrow on falco early percent), chains on platforms (if they DI away from you on the edge of the platform, FF uair runoff and regrab -- TRUST ME on the this, like no marths do it), and if you have a friend, techchase follows. try not to pummel (ever), so you have greater % coverage in practice....also, pummeling at low % is a bad habit in general. dthrow dtilt traps (dthrow, dtilt, pivot grab when near the edge), edgeguard traps (dthrow, wd off, fair, up-b), etc. Make sure to follow up with an edgeguard offstage to finish all combos. don't get a habit of standing on stage and countering/fsmashing.
    16. shield to stop momentum before aerials. Something I am trying to get used to. Basically shield right before you jump so you go straight up. Great for uair chains (a lot of times your momentum sends you past your opponent when you don't do this and therefore makes it really hard for follow up).
    17. Pivot aerial walls. another thing that i have been trying to add. basically make standard marth aerial walls (double fair, fair dj double fair, autocancel nair, etc), dash back or forward quick, and remake wall. try different distances and make it fast. with shielding, the wall stays stand-still. should be great v. Puff.
    18. pivot fsmashes. watch AustinRC vids if you don't think this is useful. Get the spacing to it down in various situations. Tipper it every time (remember, you really only want to do it on stationary targets; so after you bait a shield with an empty hop or a sidestep with dashdance, etc). work on pivots in general but this one is great.
    19. uair routines on different stages. This one is a bit hard to explain but watch a lot of M2K vids when his opponent is on the top platform and its easier to understand. Basically work on floating between the two lower platforms to uair the top one and then dj to hit it again. Different methods are required for different stages, but make sure you can trap someone on the top platform as easily as you can on the lower platforms.
    20. That crazy Taj movement ****. I have no idea how he does it so don't ask me. Its some reverse stickywalk moonwalk wavedash shenanigans that i don't even understand the hand movements for. it looks mad sexy tho.
    21. Quick methods to grab the ledge. Get goooood at this. Very important. run, crouch, dd pivot, wavedash, fastfall, grab ledge, do ledgehop aerial is a good routine. you can do a similar routine with autocanceled nairs added in (M2K does this in the lolmaster friendlies somewhere). make sure you are good at grabbing the ledge crazy quick after aerials, grabs, etc. fthrow a sheik at mid percent and do the quick DD ledgegrab before she can jump to grab ledge...this is MAD good in matches. practice PCing too I guess (using Marths walk and then pivoting near ledge) but thats usually worse than just using bair as a turnaround or this DD FF method. If you are crazy good you can practice pivot runoff fastfalls off dashes but I can only do those 10% of the time; I don't think they are humanly possible tbh. They'd be beastly to continue platform combos if they were :/

    I could go on I suppose but this is a ton of things to work on. I wrote this for myself as much as you...I need to work on this stuff too lol.

    Besides, I ended on number 21. Which ya know, is Tim Duncan's number. :bee:
     
  20. 4 Aces

    4 Aces
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    Thanks. I'll give it a go.

    So even if the first hitbox connects, there's still a possibility of the rest hitting? :confused: If that's the case, then that really does make sense to reverse it.
     
  21. Diakonos

    Diakonos
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    You ****, CrimsonBlur. That's a great list to practice. I will do that right away =p

    Also, nice Canada font
     
  22. Moxin

    Moxin
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    Blurs post deserves a sticky.
     
  23. earla

    earla
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    crazy taj movement, what is that? i'd like to see it and possible learn the method?
     
  24. Diakonos

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    Not before he explains each one a little more thoroughly, lol.

    But yeah, it's useful.
     
  25. painlord k11

    painlord k11
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    awesome stuff, im learning so much!!!
     
  26. edgeluca

    edgeluca
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    CrimsonBlur2good
     
  27. _wzrd

    _wzrd
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    great post crimson blur!

    edgeluca, thats a wicked cool avatar, what is it from?
     
  28. edgeluca

    edgeluca
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    I think I just looked up green marth on google images and then put a black background so it would blend into smashboards. I've seen the exact same picture but in the original blue color everywhere though.
     
  29. booshk

    booshk
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    are you maining marth now, brennan?
     
  30. edgeluca

    edgeluca
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    I used to main Marth, and I'm going back to him. At least for a while.
    I'm not quit samus though. I just wanna see how I do with marth and everything
     
  31. booshk

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    that's cool. let's get dittos in next tourny :)
     
  32. edgeluca

    edgeluca
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    Yeah sounds good
    I've been using marth only for the past few times I played :)
    I think I might use Fox/Samus/Sheik in doubles though.
     
  33. 4 Aces

    4 Aces
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    Smash Ace

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    What did CrimsonBlur mean when he said, "Don't pummel?"
     
  34. edgeluca

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    It's bad to pummel at low %s, cause people will just rotate and button mash like **** to get out.
     
  35. Phoenix~Lament

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    Can't find a vid of what I'm talking about, but I think I know what you're talking about. It looks like moonwalking, where you dash one direction then slide in the opposite direction, but he does it consecutively really fast. I used to do it a bit and I saw taj do it between stocks in some video a while ago. If you're facing left and moving right, it's just dashing left and wavedashing right immediately, repeated really fast.

    Is that it?
     
  36. TheCrimsonBlur

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    Thanks for the compliments guys. Marth can be a crazy technical character if you really try to make him fast. In fact, I think every character can be (except Jiggs).

    Try to add variations to stuff I said too; there is so much I left out. Stuff like dtilt->hold for walk->dd quick wavedash back ff grab ledge->dair ledgehop (if you watch M2K Armada at APEX you would know M2K could have gotten one of these off on Armada had he been technical enough and likely won the set. this **** matters lol. try to find where he could have used that trick lol). You know, things that incorporate stuff I said but in different ways. As long as its applicable in match and its useful...after all, thats how M2K says he got so good; he brainstormed situations in matches and practiced tech skill for it.

    Yup. And its a bad habit almost every Marth has. Even the great ones. Marth is such a % dependent character that people pummel while they look at their opponent's % to start up the chainthrow. Trouble is, against smart people, 1 pummel at early % (up to mid teens usually) means a grab release. One of the hardest things about playing Marth is keeping track of not only your own % but your opponent's -- its not like Fox where you want to pretty much nair no matter what the situation is; and pummeling is generally a sign that you aren't properly keeping track of the %s like you should be.

    Generally watch Marth videos and ask yourself "why did that CG stop prematurely?" Despite how often people say Marth should 0-death off grabs, it rarely happens, and most grabs, even among the highest level Marths, lead to marginal % gain. Its usually because of the bad habits of the Marth player, whether it be pummeling, utilting too early, misreading a percent, gambling with a dthrow fsmash, JC during a standing chaingrab (also one of the worst habits Marths have; don't jump cancel when you stand still and grab for the chainthrow. if a Fox is at 0% and you throw him up, just press Z. not jump+Z), etc. Minimize those habits and the combo game becomes more consistent.

    I'd search for TAJ Marth videos on youtube to see samples of it. Like his dittos with M2K or something. To tell you the truth, Taj is the only one who could really tell you what he does exactly. According to him its "Wavedash back to moonwalk dash dance to wavedash back to forward dash to stagger it then a wavedash forward to quick dashdances again." Basically its like dashdancing but constantly facing your opponent. And considering Marth is only good while facing forwards, its pretty good.

    Just generally becoming hella smooth with movement. Learning to make your dashdances at variable distances (and with purpose) is tough to implement but fantastic.
     
  37. booshk

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    'Taj278
    1 year ago 3
    Yeah, that's what it is. Wavedash back to moonwalk dash dance to wavedash back to forward dash to stagger it then a wavedash forward to quick dashdances again.

    I appreciate the compliment though. :D'

    i c..

    whoops u already posted it crimson, my bad LOL
     
  38. earla

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    how do i moonwalk with marth? is the timing difficult?

    what is 'stagger it'?

    whats the purpose of dashing after everything? good for fox matchup? how so.

    cheers
     
  39. TheCrimsonBlur

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    Its the same as every other character but you have to walk first. Check the Falcon boards/moonwalking FAQs for more info.

    Fairly sure he means stickywalking. Again, check the moonwalking guide.

    Well, you need to be super quick vs. Fox. Dashing is the go-to way of moving against Fox and you need to be able to use it on the first available frame after your lag. Lets say you do a falling fair, land, and l cancel. Fox comes in to punish with a drill. You shield and proceed to get *****. If you had dashed back right after your fair, you'd be the one doing the ******. Simple example, but it makes a point that applies in more complex scenarios: dashing is good.

    Also note that a common bad habit Marths have is wavedashing to reset their dash. They dashdance a little, run forward a bit, wavedash, and then continue the dashdance. This actually slows you down considerably and it would be better if you just learned the timing of the dashdance to remove the unnecessary wavedashes. In general, unnecessary wavedashes get punished a lot vs. Fox and really should be limited. Its a terrible habit to wavedash because you are uncomfortable at the end of your dashdance range; you'll just get naired by a decent Fox. This habit is usually formed because ppl practice their movement in training and get frustrated by Marths turnaround and just wavedash to avoid it...it looks smooth as hell in training but bad in matches lol. This is an example of how training alone can **** with you.

    And of course, in true Marth fashion, Marth has to play a completely different way against Falco. Whereas dashing was dominant vs. Fox, wavedashing is dominant vs. Falco lol. Yeah, this is why Marth is hard. :mad:
     
  40. TheCrimsonBlur

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    double post my bad :/
     

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