Tech Chasing Fox

[Lawrencelot]

when you play someone you play often YOU should have even more of an advantage cuz you will learn their tech habits and react accordingly

That's how it should be, but I tend to be very good at techchasing someone for the first time, but when they find out what I do they often find a way around it. This specific person for example always spotdodged first, it worked for him but then i started to wait for the spotdodge and that worked for me, now a few months later he does what I described above and now I need to find a counter again. A different person always got techchased by me, but after only one match or so he started not teching then rolling away and I didn't know what to do against that at the time, now I do but I didn't play against him lately.

I think when you play against someone you play often you get used to their tech patterns so you get lazy and turn on autopilot and then you have a harder time techchasing when they do something new / different.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Try doing something safe like... dthrow jab, every time. Is that fast enough to react to every tech?

EDIT:

Never mind, you play PAL.

 

[Adam M!]

can you link me a video? if you can get him to 50%+ (consistently) then you can pretty much 0-death any fox from any grab. which is unreal.

lol why do you think that just because you can't do it that no one can do it

if you COULD, you would never mess up a tech chase

so because no one is perfect means you can't do it? wtf

you'd be able to 0-death from one grab every single time

reminds me of people who say marth would be the best character in the game if he was played perfectly

 

[KirbyKaze]

I missed you.

Also, what happened to just grabbing them through their tech vulnerability frames? They have 6 frames of vulnerability on a tech in place and it's a 26 frame animation. So you have just short of half a second to see what they're doing and a decent enough window during that time to press "Z" and get them. It even comes equipped with a white tint to show when they're roughly invincible and when they're not.

Y'all are talking like you have to wait until the tech is over before you can grab.

I understand that PAL players have Fox fly millions of miles away from them whenever they grab so okay, I can understand that, but in NTSC they go nowhere. You don't even have to move more than a few pixels for them to be in grab range if they DI away.

 

[pockyD]

well you have to start your grab prior to that window, so it's more like 1/4th-1/3rd of a second

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if you space it so the shine doesnt hit you out of the grab, you have an additional 1-4 frames depending on what they do. rolls and spot dodges aren't invincible the first frame (spot dodge- starts on 2, roll starts on 4) and jabs have start up time too (fox's starts on 2)

 

[Kira-]

lol why do you think that just because you can't do it that no one can do it

I don't think that's what I said?

so because no one is perfect means you can't do it? wtf

well. if we assume that them being able to do it means they are perfect, then yes. If (theoretically) KK can get them to 50% consistently, he should be able to get 0-deaths with the same amount of consistency (at least that's what I've experienced) so shouldn't he be like... past m2k status lol.

reminds me of people who say marth would be the best character in the game if he was played perfectly

yeah, that's what im saying. nobody can do it perfectly right? that's why i find it hard to believe that people can CONSISTENTLY do it.

isn't tope one of the best tech chasers? even he doesn't get them to 50% all the time, so i just dont see how it's possible to react to everything perfectly.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If (theoretically) KK can get them to 50% consistently, he should be able to get 0-deaths with the same amount of consistency (at least that's what I've experienced) so shouldn't he be like... past m2k status lol.

I had no idea that punishment was the only thing that mattered in this game.

M2K spaces better, gimps better, creates openings better, camps better, powershields better, works out of shield better, moves better... even if I tech chase better than him (which might not even be true; he complains about having a bad day or controller when he flubs and there might be legitimacy there) then he's still better at all the other components of Sheik.

yeah, that's what im saying. nobody can do it perfectly right? that's why i find it hard to believe that people can CONSISTENTLY do it.

isn't tope one of the best tech chasers? even he doesn't get them to 50% all the time, so i just dont see how it's possible to react to everything perfectly.

M2K misses u-throw --> u-throw sometimes against space animals with Marth. Even in his prime. Is he, or was he, inconsistent?

If that's the case, then I concede and I'm terribly inconsistent and take it back entirely.

 

[Kira-]

well i dont think it's that hard to just grab once

i mean everyone can get grabs, it's just capitalizing on them that's the hard part

or maybe i got it backwards ><

but yeah i see what you're saying. i probably just have a weird experience or something. or like since i can't punish from grabs that well then foxes aren't as scared of getting grabbed. oh well anyway i guess each sheik has it's pros and cons, i see

 

[Kira-]

Kira - If you're interested I played Scar at recording setup during brackets. So whenever its uploaded I can link you to my match vs him

yeah that would be cooll

 

[AlcyoNite]

About the U-Smash discussion:
I have found U-Smash to be the most rewarding/safe tech-in-place option because it is completely safe when timed right and most often can lead to a jab reset or a simple shield grab if the spacie is a beginner who wake-up attacks.
Jabbing is extremely risky because the opponent can react to it by queuing a roll, CC > grabbing, etc.
Re-grabbing is a good mix-up if you feel on-top of your tech-chasing (especially for low percents), but it will only lead to another throw for which another follow up will require another guess; though, I do realize that this next tech will almost always be in a direction which is extremely easy to follow.
D-Smash is CC-able into pretty much anything on the part of the spacie. If they are at high percents when they cant cc, then a good ol' up smash will launch them into a slap or some sort of d-air combo > slap.
U-smash is also pretty safe for landing a chunk of percent when you dont want to have to tech chase for the same amount of percent. Its also pretty safe just to throw out on your first or second d-throw, when the spacie isnt necessarily on-top of their game. Spacies tend to think that tech in place is the safest for vs sheik, so why not? You are also not compromising your ability to tack on more percent either b/c u can likely just jab reset or shield grab when they stand or attack get-up.

Mostly, im just scared of the fox CCing the d-smash into a u-smash or grab.

 

[KirbyKaze]

U-smash, on hit, is very good.

 

[soap]

dthrow, walk over, utilt

thats all i go for now, if they rolled away, i calmly walk over and ftilt

lazy sunday sheik ftw

 

[pockyD]

can't they cc shine the utilt?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think they can cc the first hit, the 2nd hit knocks them down.


or im wrong.

 

[soap]

if u catch them before they reach neutral they can only asdi not true cc

but i have been cc shined out of utilt, then i usualy stop and start grabbing

 

[scarletshinobi]

If they roll, I miss, but they can't punish, upsmash is completely safe. I like to do ftilts after my upsmash cause everyone tries to punish but they run into it. It's great.

Just a slight qquestion. Can't Fox/Falco CC the f-tilt?

 

[Spife]

Just a slight qquestion. Can't Fox/Falco CC the f-tilt?

Depends on the percent but I doubt anyone rushing in to punish upsmash are thinking "I should dash cancel -> CC"

 

[ChivalRuse]

Most spacies won't CC much against Sheik because all she does is grab. She'll usually only ftilt defensively, but who's going to use CC offensively, you know? Plus, you can't really CC her fair, which is her other main defensive tool.

Personally, I only CC vs Sheik when I think she's about to dash attack. But usually I'll just shield it and upsmash OOS to avoid taking damage.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If me vs Lovage and UUAA was recorded, then just watch those.

They're very educational.

 

[soap]

fox cc dtilt is very useful against sheik tilts

 

[SuperRad]

If me vs Lovage and UUAA was recorded, then just watch those.

They're very educational.

Pakman said that he only recorded bracket matches on the left projector on Sunday



I wanted to see those again.

I wish I had read this thread earlier, there's a lot of good stuff in here.

 

[ArcNatural]

Depends on the percent but I doubt anyone rushing in to punish upsmash are thinking "I should dash cancel -> CC"

>.>; <.<;

I've always considered this kind of obvious, Sheik's like to ftilt defensively so run up and CC a grab/dtilt and if they jab/tilt you you just upsmash them before the tilt ends.

I tend to only do it when I'm at really low percents though, cause there is always a chance they could just dsmash instead.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

fox cc dtilt is very useful against sheik tilts

yes. very muc hthis.

its annoying

because he hits you with it

then he hits you with more things

then you die
and you're lie

:^(

 

[KirbyKaze]

>.>; <.<;

I've always considered this kind of obvious, Sheik's like to ftilt defensively so run up and CC a grab/dtilt and if they jab/tilt you you just upsmash them before the tilt ends.

I tend to only do it when I'm at really low percents though, cause there is always a chance they could just dsmash instead.

I'm starting to remove ground tilts from my game more and more.

Top tiers CCing is too broken.

 

[Nihonjin]

Tilts <333

 

[Ministry]

is dair a good option on jab resets or is it to slow? i would think it would lead to more options such as upsmash or another dair. maybe regrab or upsmash is better, but the dair almost counts as an upsmash....

rofl at your quote david i just read it

 

[Iron Dragon]

My opinion on this probly differs greatly from much of you but I usually just try to walk and grab. If I miss a grab I try to get away, I try to NEVER dash attack until 70-80%. I've faced forward's Fox too many times, and gotten ****ed over just by dash attacking him, he CCs, grabs, and gets a 50-70% combo, it's not worth it until 70-80.

I'm actually pretty sure that you can up throw to tech chase below 40. I'm thinking about incorporating this more because I think up throw is easier to react to in terms of their techs. Down throw ends pretty quickly and they tech quickly so you have to react near perfectly otherwise you can take big damage(Fox is so gay). Where as with up throw, the ending lag from it seems to end maybe a slight bit before they hit the ground and have time to tech. After 40 you can start reacting to techs a bit easier obviously. From here is where I would start making more options after a dthrow such as utilt, I actually find utilt to be pretty effective against Fox because it gives you so many options. Ftilt, possible re-grab,dsmash if you like that, etc.

In general Fox is a gigantic pain in the *** because the guaranteed combos you have on other characters don't seem to work quite as well on Fox. His falling speed and weight will often times make me miss my dash attack after a dthrow just enough to matter in which sometimes they can grab me because of my ending lag.

Just some thoughts