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Tales of Brawl - Innerscope has released Lloyd 2.0!

Royal_Blade

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Gamedominator, who did you get the sword trails from?
Because every time I have both Lloyd and Zero, Lloyd's swords have the same green slash effect as Zero. Whenever Zero isn't playing, Lloyd's trails are the same as in your screens...

If that's useful information, I'm glad it helps. But could that be fixed?
 

Eternal Yoshi

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Sounds like you referenced Link's effect.pac. If you want it to work without Link/Zero, you shouldn't rename it.

The only flaw is that if the original character with the original effect.pac gets defeated/unloaded, the trails go white.

For an example of what I mean, see: Gray Fox.
 

Royal_Blade

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Sounds like you referenced Link's effect.pac. If you want it to work without Link/Zero, you shouldn't rename it.

The only flaw is that if the original character with the original effect.pac gets defeated/unloaded, the trails go white.

For an example of what I mean, see: Gray Fox.
That could be the issue Gamedominator is having with the sword trails. The trails aren't loading for him because the original character is not loaded at the same time as Lloyd.
So Gamedominator has to figure out a way to get the sword trails to load with Lloyd and not the original character. Then it should be fine. I don't know much on this stuff so I don't know a solution.
 

GP&B

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Sounds like you referenced Link's effect.pac. If you want it to work without Link/Zero, you shouldn't rename it.

The only flaw is that if the original character with the original effect.pac gets defeated/unloaded, the trails go white.

For an example of what I mean, see: Gray Fox.
Wait, is the value 2D Link's files? I thought he was 3 or 4 or something like that. The thing is, when I looked through the Big PSA List thread, I did find a list of characters' external files along with their file number (in decimal), but Wolf's file number wasn't there. What I'm trying to do is merely replace two of Wolf's external effects with two of Marth's sword trail effects (again, both 64x64 so BBox doesn't give an error). If the character ID for even referencing the files in the first place is off, I think we found the major issue in the first place.

That could be the issue Gamedominator is having with the sword trails. The trails aren't loading for him because the original character is not loaded at the same time as Lloyd.
So Gamedominator has to figure out a way to get the sword trails to load with Lloyd and not the original character. Then it should be fine. I don't know much on this stuff so I don't know a solution.
Basically this, which is why I want to think my theoretical solution should work. I might try looking through the original character's (Wolf's files and look for an External Graphic Effect command to see what ID number he references. If it's the same though... then I really don't have a clue what to do. If this does work, then I will know how to also reference the sword glow files that are already placed in Wolf's main pac (as in, we've had them in earlier).

And at your earlier comment EY, yeah I think it is related to the ThrownN bone. Now when Lloyd actually throws somebody, they just stay in place which has more to do with there being no animation.

EDIT: Damn it, Wolf's file number is 2D so it's still the correct file number... I don't get why it won't load those textures then.

Well, even though I still don't know any other solutions, I will say that adding even just white sword glows to a number of moves make them look a lot nicer and smoother like his neutral jab attacks (which, by the way, I want to work on making them link better like all of the other characters' jabs).

EDIT2: Ok, so I felt like addressing some issues with Rising Falcon (besides the fact that sliding off the ledge with it means you get stuck in the air and that it can't ledge cancel and that the aerial version doesn't work). It's the inconsistent momentum.

In most cases, you're probably going to get this:

In which Lloyd stops directly there and doesn't move any more.

In a few cases if you move the joystick a certain way before actually executing Rising Falcon, you'll get this:

Lloyd carries the momentum on landing and moves forward a bit (note that he's moved past the landing effect a little bit). This is the desirable situation. However, there's an issue where you can control him in the air (only moving forward) before it executes. If this could get removed and consistently works like this, this would be the most refined feel to it. That would also mean fixing the two other possibilities that can happen.

Exhibit A:

Lloyd actually moves a bit backwards in the dive. What's not pictured here is the huge amount of momentum gained after landing and is really similar to the length that the dive covers in...

Exhibit B:

Another instance. Lloyd gets huge distance and big momentum with it. Note that these two examples also cannot be moved forward before the dive like the second Rising Falcon screen can, which is good but there's the whole issue with the dive not going where it's supposed to.

Also, EY. I tested your fix and it seems like you're almost there, except 180 degrees off. At least you got the angle right, it just needs to be facing the other way.



This looks incredibly badass even if it's wrong:



There's also one frame in the Wait1 animation where the player tag likes to drop down before popping up into its proper position. You can't see anything wrong in the animation itself unless you're holding a swinging item (any other item seems to cause a T-stance, probably because a swinging item doesn't use the WaitItem animation?). Yes, this was ridiculously hard to get a screen of.


And finally, there's a glitch with Psi Tempest (and there's already at least two or three others) where it can stick on a ledge.

Honestly, I really need to start reading up on some more detailed PSA things. Few others on the team have shown up in a long time and the moveset needs a lot of refinement, not too mention a large number of animations (and some already existing animations that need refinement).
 

GP&B

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Holy crap, I want to say to keep Lloyd's backhand hold.

... Reminds me of Hubert Ozwell.
Or Yuan. Hell, it would sort of make sense that way even though trying to grip two weapons with one hand is kind of nonsensical to start with. And it'd be really cool to see swinging animations with it.
 

JetAurion

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Or Darth Maul...

But this IS Lloyd we're talking about, and some hardcore Lloyd fans may not want to see Lloyd like that.

...
But I really wanted to see custom animations of Lloyd slashing at the enemy with a beam sword while holding it backwards. :(
 

GP&B

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So, a potential "yes" to the backhand hold then? I mean, it is an improvement over where he was previously holding items.

Ok, so I got the aerial Rising Falcon fix from ultraxwing. I've been told that you can constantly use it in the air rather than a more expected behavior like diving continuously until you hit solid ground or a blast zone. Doing the latter would probably require some animation changing (separating the dive and the landing) and a little bit of coding which I'm probably going to try out.

Also, I've been theorizing some ideas for working on Falcon's Crest/Tenshou Souhazan even though other stuff is a priority. I exported Marth's entry effects and the model that uses them. We could also replace the Landmaster model with a modified model of some other character's sword (most likely Ike, since there's already one hack of his sword that already looks a good deal like the Eternal Sword). The actual animations wouldn't really be that hard at all.

Oh, and does anybody know how to change the color of a texture that doesn't inherently have the color in it? What I mean is effects like, to be relevant, Marth's entry effects appear yellow in-game, but are colorless in BBox.
 

ryuu seika

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Backhand is fine for me and there are no complaints about it so far.

Aerial RF spamming sounds odd but it's not a problem per se. How broken is the Pseudo-wavedashing with it though?

A simple texture mod and that would indeed be an Eternal Sword. The flashing lights or holes in the middle would be nice but they're not a necessity in the slightest.
 

GP&B

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Backhand is fine for me and there are no complaints about it so far.

Aerial RF spamming sounds odd but it's not a problem per se. How broken is the Pseudo-wavedashing with it though?

A simple texture mod and that would indeed be an Eternal Sword. The flashing lights or holes in the middle would be nice but they're not a necessity in the slightest.
I actually haven't gotten the chance to try out the fix yet so I'm curious how it'll work. I can't see pseudo-WDing to be particularly strong though since you have to go through the jump and dive. That, and I'm planning to make the landing part last a bit longer like in the game itself. Currently, it ends a mere 2 or 3 frames after Lloyd swings his swords so the lingering hitbox generally can't do anything worthwhile.

Yeah, it'd be pretty close to what we're looking for. I think some animation work and proper textures could get the animated lights along with the animated glow (which would be a bit tricky), but I'd be content with it being the awesome-looking sword it is without the effects.
 

ryuu seika

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Would you have to go through the jump? Can you not cancel the jump into the move like you could with Melee's dodges? If not, it's probably fine but it'd still be an effective landing. I'm definitely seeing this as a potential issue though as a wavedash with hitboxes would be really broken.

Yeah, the effects aren't needed, just a nice extra at the end if you can get them.
 

Royal_Blade

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So, a potential "yes" to the backhand hold then? I mean, it is an improvement over where he was previously holding items.

Ok, so I got the aerial Rising Falcon fix from ultraxwing. I've been told that you can constantly use it in the air rather than a more expected behavior like diving continuously until you hit solid ground or a blast zone. Doing the latter would probably require some animation changing (separating the dive and the landing) and a little bit of coding which I'm probably going to try out.

Also, I've been theorizing some ideas for working on Falcon's Crest/Tenshou Souhazan even though other stuff is a priority. I exported Marth's entry effects and the model that uses them. We could also replace the Landmaster model with a modified model of some other character's sword (most likely Ike, since there's already one hack of his sword that already looks a good deal like the Eternal Sword). The actual animations wouldn't really be that hard at all.

Oh, and does anybody know how to change the color of a texture that doesn't inherently have the color in it? What I mean is effects like, to be relevant, Marth's entry effects appear yellow in-game, but are colorless in BBox.
I'm fine with the item holding.

That sword is a great base for the Eternal Sword. It just need minor vertexing (which I wouldn't mind doing to get myself started on vertexing.)

Yes, the animations wouldn't be hard. You would just have the initial pose holding the sword, the jump, the slash, then the back jump. You can use Ike's SpecialAirNStart and Special(Air)Hi2/3/4. And just edit Special(Air)Hi2 a bit. And alter the jump of Rising Falcon for the ending back jump. And If you need ideas for GFX, I can help pick out the right ones.

Speaking of Rising Falcon, would it not have been easier if you guys separated animations to begin with? Quite a bit of Brawl moves are like that.
 

Ultraxwing

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Yeah they are.

but not the aerial moves per say.

i wish i knew how to truly PSA. that fix took me a week to perfect. and i didn't even know what i was doing lol.
 

GP&B

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Would you have to go through the jump? Can you not cancel the jump into the move like you could with Melee's dodges? If not, it's probably fine but it'd still be an effective landing. I'm definitely seeing this as a potential issue though as a wavedash with hitboxes would be really broken.

Yeah, the effects aren't needed, just a nice extra at the end if you can get them.
What do you mean? If you mean the jump on Rising Falcon being canceled, it's not technically a jump and only aesthetically appears that way (the main reason Rising Falcon can't go off a ledge unless you get momentum with it before hand). I'm still kind of confused though.

I'm fine with the item holding.

That sword is a great base for the Eternal Sword. It just need minor vertexing (which I wouldn't mind doing to get myself started on vertexing.)

Yes, the animations wouldn't be hard. You would just have the initial pose holding the sword, the jump, the slash, then the back jump. You can use Ike's SpecialAirNStart and Special(Air)Hi2/3/4. And just edit Special(Air)Hi2 a bit. And alter the jump of Rising Falcon for the ending back jump. And If you need ideas for GFX, I can help pick out the right ones.

Speaking of Rising Falcon, would it not have been easier if you guys separated animations to begin with? Quite a bit of Brawl moves are like that.
Yeah, if you could modify that sword to get pretty close to the Eternal Sword, that'd be great. We'd just have to credit the original creator for it (which I believe was BeyondYou).

They're pretty simple animations. However, it's not possible to import animations from other Brawl characters as Lloyd's bone structure is completely different and wouldn't work with them. Altering previously existing animations will work though.

And yeah, that would've been a good idea but it probably wasn't a concern in the beginning. Again, I'm refining a lot of this so there's some extra details I'm making sure to get through on this.

Yeah they are.

but not the aerial moves per say.

i wish i knew how to truly PSA. that fix took me a week to perfect. and i didn't even know what i was doing lol.
Heh, well thanks for the fix either way. Should I also credit ds22 for originally getting the fix the first time around?
 

ryuu seika

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What do you mean? If you mean the jump on Rising Falcon being canceled, it's not technically a jump and only aesthetically appears that way (the main reason Rising Falcon can't go off a ledge unless you get momentum with it before hand). I'm still kind of confused though.
I'm not talking about grounded RF, I'm talking short hopping into an earliest moment possible aerial version a la wavedashing. If you've kept the pseudo-jump in the air that fixes everything, though it would make the aerial version seem a little awkward IMO.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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That backwards sword is strange.......

The PSA cannot control base rotation of the bone.

Lloyd has another bone on his right hand that can serve as a HaveN, if you want to try that.
 

GP&B

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I'm not talking about grounded RF, I'm talking short hopping into an earliest moment possible aerial version a la wavedashing. If you've kept the pseudo-jump in the air that fixes everything, though it would make the aerial version seem a little awkward IMO.
Oh, well I'm not even sure if aerial RF goes into the dive faster. I still have yet to test the fix. I do see what you mean though.

ds22 did the original fix.

but i lost it and remade it in my own code. so i guess you could.
Then I'll credit ds22 for originally finding the fix and you for remaking it.
 

GP&B

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So I am vertexing the sword first, then you'll replace landmaster? I'll get started. (Well, I'll try to.)
Yeah, that's the general idea.

That backwards sword is strange.......

The PSA cannot control base rotation of the bone.

Lloyd has another bone on his right hand that can serve as a HaveN, if you want to try that.
If you want to, go ahead and give it a shot.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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MF can be SO DUMB sometimes.........
>_<

Who is Hervé Lemaire, and how does he have the right to delete files that he doesn't even own the copyright to???
Since when is Super Smash Bros. Brawl content even RELATED to De Tauriac???
 

Royal_Blade

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Gamedominator06, look at this:
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/4407/osmiumike.png
If you make the texture semi-transparent, the sword has that "glassy" effect. Do you think you can pull that off with the material blade? If so, they'll look soooooo much better!

Btw, where are the textures of the Vorpal Sword and Flamberge in the FitWolf files?

Edit: Found the textures. I'm gonna try making the textures semi-transparent.
 

GP&B

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MF can be SO DUMB sometimes.........
>_<

Who is Hervé Lemaire, and how does he have the right to delete files that he doesn't even own the copyright to???
Since when is Super Smash Bros. Brawl content even RELATED to De Tauriac???
lolwut is this.

Gamedominator06, look at this:
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/4407/osmiumike.png
If you make the texture semi-transparent, the sword has that "glassy" effect. Do you think you can pull that off with the material blade? If so, they'll look soooooo much better!

Btw, where are the textures of the Vorpal Sword and Flamberge in the FitWolf files?
Actually, I was planning to do this earlier. I didn't know it actually looked quite this good either! I'll make sure to do that then, especially because the Vorpal Sword is transparent (at least in ToE, it is). It'll also really make up for the rough texture mapping (not really a fault of Zephron's texture abilities or nerf's vertex abilities; it's hard to work textures over heavily modified models) so it'll look infinitely better.

Also, those two textures are both in the moveset FitWolf.pac file under textures.
 

GP&B

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Awesome. I'm wondering if I should upload the most recent .pac that has the GFX updates, item fix, and aerial RF fix on it.
 

Royal_Blade

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Awesome. I'm wondering if I should upload the most recent .pac that has the GFX updates, item fix, and aerial RF fix on it.
I say wait until you fully get RF fixed. I can edit your .pac anytime.

Also, It seems that my attempt at getting the semi-transparent blades failed... I'm going to try again later.

Edit: How do I vertex the sword separately?
 

GP&B

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I say wait until you fully get RF fixed. I can edit your .pac anytime.

Also, It seems that my attempt at getting the semi-transparent blades failed... I'm going to try again later.

Edit: How do I vertex the sword separately?
Considering it's just textures you're editing, it's true that you don't really need any recent .pac.

And you mean Ike's Sword? Because of how Aether works, Ike happens to possess a separate ModelData for just the sword itself. Look through his files.
 

Royal_Blade

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Considering it's just textures you're editing, it's true that you don't really need any recent .pac.

And you mean Ike's Sword? Because of how Aether works, Ike happens to possess a separate ModelData for just the sword itself. Look through his files.
But the separate sword looks just like ragnell but with the recolor of the osmium sword. The vertex is part of Ike's model. How am I to vertex it then?
 

Royal_Blade

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Oh, i ran into this.

you would have to remake the vertex...
Ugh... That seems like quite some work... I would might as well vertex the Eternal Sword from scratch.

@Gamedominator: Do the textures for the swords have to be in format "CMPR"? Or can they work in a different format?

Edit:

Crud.

Well, would you still want to give it a shot either way Royal_Blade?
Sure, why not.

Edit2: Do I have to extract the sword model first before vertexing? (As I said, I'm new to vertexing. So i'll need some help.)
 

GP&B

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Ugh... That seems like quite some work... I would might as well vertex the Eternal Sword from scratch.

@Gamedominator: Do the textures for the swords have to be in format "CMPR"? Or can they work in a different format?

Edit:


Sure, why not.
I'm actually not entirely sure about that. Try to see if transparency works in other formats.
 

Royal_Blade

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Quick question GD, are you making this a ToS1 Lloyd? If so, you'll also need to adjust the crouching.

And the backflip seems weird for an aerial dodge. I can see why it's there though (Recovering in ToS) But it seems not to fit Brawl...

And I've been thinking about it... And I think Tiger Blade should be DTilt and Sword Rain should be STilt. It would work out much better. Using a STilt to kinda meteor someone off the edge is weird...

Also, I think the CSP's need a revamp. (And all should the same size) If you could put this pose
http://images.ados.fr/bd-manga/photo/3565312356/tales-of/lloyd-irving-544535afa.jpg
under one of his taunts (temporarily. And I don't think down is used.), I will remake them.

And I really like the above pose over the current Sonic Thrust pose.
 

ryuu seika

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Actually, I was planning to do this earlier. I didn't know it actually looked quite this good either! I'll make sure to do that then, especially because the Vorpal Sword is transparent (at least in ToE, it is).
Both Material Blades are transparent in ToS (though the replacement swords used in KoR aren't). They're not hugely so, just enough to make the glow from within affect the sword colour noticeably.
 

GP&B

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Quick question GD, are you making this a ToS1 Lloyd? If so, you'll also need to adjust the crouching.

And the backflip seems weird for an aerial dodge. I can see why it's there though (Recovering in ToS) But it seems not to fit Brawl...

And I've been thinking about it... And I think Tiger Blade should be DTilt and Sword Rain should be STilt. It would work out much better. Using a STilt to kinda meteor someone off the edge is weird...

Also, I think the CSP's need a revamp. (And all should the same size) If you could put this pose
http://images.ados.fr/bd-manga/photo/3565312356/tales-of/lloyd-irving-544535afa.jpg
under one of his taunts (temporarily. And I don't think down is used.), I will remake them.

And I really like the above pose over the current Sonic Thrust pose.
The idea is get animation styles to look more like ToS1 Lloyd. For one thing, ToS1 Lloyd actually has sword trails while ToS2 Lloyd does not. Then there's the different run animation and there's a number of animations that look infinitely cleaner in ToS1. Also, the squat animation is wrong to begin with. It mirrors him and also doesn't transfer properly from standing. I know where to find his ToS1 squat.

If CSPs are to be redone, I do have an idea to help if we use that pose. I'll temporarily replace the current eyes and mouth he uses with his more excited/happy set. Also, that reminds me: I need to ask pikazz about face editing.

Both Material Blades are transparent in ToS (though the replacement swords used in KoR aren't). They're not hugely so, just enough to make the glow from within affect the sword colour noticeably.


Yeah, you're pretty much spot-on with the description. Also, does anyone think that vertex hacking has progressed far enough to make cleaner Material Blades? Obviously, we'd need someone to redo them. It's that or redo the textures even though that's tricky work. I'd be mostly content with transparent blades for now though. Once glows get working, it'll make up for it a lot.
 

Richter Abend

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I know this will sound rude, but is there any chance you could release Lloyd's current form? PSA and all?

I'll understand if you can't; I've been away for too long and am currently trying to re-figure out Riivolution, as the latest upgrade has me completely confused. I can't use Brawl hacks (I can't even load them) but Rii works, at the least.....
 

GP&B

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I know this will sound rude, but is there any chance you could release Lloyd's current form? PSA and all?

I'll understand if you can't; I've been away for too long and am currently trying to re-figure out Riivolution, as the latest upgrade has me completely confused. I can't use Brawl hacks (I can't even load them) but Rii works, at the least.....
You mean with the current GFX updates, aerial RF fix, and item fix? I'll run through all of the attack animations first for GFX stuff first and then I'll consider that. Now, if I can fix RF's consistency issue along with separating its jump/dive part with the landing part (and make that work), I'll absolutely have it out then. That alone will make Lloyd feel a lot nicer to play as. I'm going to take care of GFX first though. I want to have a definitive .pac with the other completed things first before I start making back ups of the motionetc and start working on that.

Now for an important question: when I get to enabling RF to go off ledges (essentially diving through the air technically and aesthetically rather than just the latter), should I have an IASA for jumping out of it after diving below the height you started the jump at? Or should it work like Falcon Kick where you have to wait for the animation to end (which I'm going to have happen anyways) before you can do anything else? The former is a major buff to his recovery and works a lot like Sonic's recovery does. If you want the latter to still be a viable recovery option, I can also make that work like Melee Falcon Kick where your DJ is restored at the end of it. That way, you still have to sacrifice height but it can put you below the ledge for an ideal recovery position while still giving you that DJ to get high enough to Psi Tempest to it.
 
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