Tales of Brawl - Innerscope has released Lloyd 2.0!

[GP&B]

While it's not related to the moveset itself, I have taken an interest in redoing a few animations despite lacking a good amount of skill in doing so. I'm mostly looking at making the run animation more like ToS1's (and some of the small experimental tests I did looked pretty decent using BBox modset 4.1's animator), adding a jumpsquat and normal jump animation, and copying the airdodge animation over to what I believe is actually supposed to be the recovery jump in the original game and would be the double jump here.

 

[ryuu seika]

Recovery jump? You mean Ukemi right?
I'm not sure that what is meant to be a flip from hurt falling would work for a second jump from normal falling but if it looks good to you, you probably know best. You actually have the files.

 

[GP&B]

Technically, what's currently in place for the air dodge, IIRC, is indeed Ukemi. And I should've been more specific: it looks good as a backwards DJ seeing as how in ToS it pushed you away from the target that sent you into the air in the first place.

 

[Royal_Blade]

Technically, what's currently in place for the air dodge, IIRC, is indeed Ukemi. And I should've been more specific: it looks good as a backwards DJ seeing as how in ToS it pushed you away from the target that sent you into the air in the first place.

It would be better for his getting up animations as well. They would have to be altered a bit for the cat-spring. And a ToS1 running would look nice. And for the shielding, use Lloyd's normal guard frame for that, and use the guardian frame for his spot dodge. With some effects, you should get the reference.

Also, what's happening with the sword glows?

 

[GP&B]

I really don't know. I believe SqLeon was looking into it but I haven't seen anything in this thread about it. I need to be on Skype a lot more

I may try looking into it myself but I wouldn't necessarily know what to do. I'll probably look at how it's done on Marth and go from there.

 

[ryuu seika]

From what I remember, people worked out how to give Lloyd sword glows before but only both the same colour. I could be wrong though.

 

[kisamefishfries]

From what I remember, people worked out how to give Lloyd sword glows before but only both the same colour. I could be wrong though.

No, thats right. Also can we please finish this so I can egg you people into making an Asabel from Graces? He could have a wicked move set, but even more then asabel i want Malik, mage with ranged weaponary? I feel that would add some conundrum to brawl

 

[ryuu seika]

He could have the glow from the eternal sword (or the white glow from the sword fusion during Falcon's Crest) on both if it comes down to that. It would at the very least make sense and hopefully it would look ok too.

As for future characters, I'd rather we got Suzu (over ICs), Dhaos or a Sheena, Keel or Meredy that replaced Pokemon Trainer.

 

[GP&B]

I was sort of thinking of a mix of the two Material Blades, but that only makes sense on moves like Tempest where having two different colors would work in the first place.

Asbel would be very interesting although you'd have to completely forge his air game, but that's not that big of a deal. I'd really love to see Cless, Stahn, Reid, or even Veigue (for sharing the same VA as OoT Link).

So, I was inspired today to graphically buff the appearance of Lloyd's moveset. Anyone who has played ToS1 knows that his moves are abundantly coated in nice-looking effects. I'm here to tell you that I'll try working on that "abundantly" part while hopefully resulting in that "nice-looking" part. If I actually make some progress, I'll post some screens. I know this doesn't progress the moveset, but if you've seen or even played with the Lloyd moveset, most of it is just the barebones animations (which I also aim to clean up so they're as smooth as their ToS1 counterparts).

 

[Royal_Blade]

Can't wait to see those screens Gamedominator06!

Btw Ultraxwing, have you got around to making the Up Smash that I suggested? Which also has the fixed Rising Falcon included. If you don't have the USmash done, could you send me the fixed Rising Falcon then?

 

[ryuu seika]

I'd really love to see Cless, Stahn, Reid, or even Veigue (for sharing the same VA as OoT Link).

I don't know Veigue and don't care much for Stahn. The other two could be good IMO but what does Reid bring to the game that Lloyd, Emil and the other swordsmen don't?
Chloe could be good. I even have most of a moveset drafted.

 

[GP&B]

I don't know Veigue and don't care much for Stahn. The other two could be good IMO but what does Reid bring to the game that Lloyd, Emil and the other swordsmen don't?
Chloe could be good. I even have most of a moveset drafted.

Veigue is from Tales of Rebirth, which from what I've seen of the great reception and videos of it, needs a lot more love. I guess Reid isn't particularly interesting given that he's more notable for introducing a few more staple moves (ie. Lighting Blade, a more definitive Light Spear and Rising Phoenix, Sword Rain, and all respective ougi combinations). A number of those were sifted into magic swordsmen (ie. Kratos and Zelos) while others became staples in primary swordsmen (ie. Lloyd) I think his extensions would be a lot of fun to play around with.

EDIT: If any of you want to, you can look through the GFX in this video and pick out appropriate ones for each move. Look at any arte exhibition video for reference if you need to. I found that pretty much almost any tech that launches Lloyd off the ground (ie. Tempest, Tiger Blade, Rising Phoenix) would look nice with GFX 9. I'm just going to work on Tiger Blade first though.

 

[ryuu seika]

I know who Veigue is, I just don't know him. I've never played a non-translated tales game.
Oh and lol at the idea of a definitive light spear even being possible.

 

[GP&B]

Oh, neither have I.
Well, the idea is there for how Light Spear should behave, heh.

 

[ryuu seika]

Even within KoR, Light Spear was inconsistent. Look at Zelos's Light Spear Cannon and then look at Emil's. They do not match in the slightest. It's a confusing mess that move and to this day they have done nothing to rectify that.
It doesn't help that half the extensions don't even make sense with the modern Light Spears.

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, I've never quite understood that at all. Cless' Light Spear is completely nonsensical compared to the Reid/Zelos/Kratos Light Spear.

Bah, if I understood anything complex about PSA, I'd be fixing up grounded Rising Falcon (and I want that fix for the aerial version from ultraxwing too).

 

[ryuu seika]

And then there's Stahn and Co's Light Spear, as well as Luke and Emil having a Light Spear Cannon which isn't an extension of any of the other three. And Demon Spear only ever made sense in ToP.

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, does the hitbox for Rising Falcon extend out behind him like it should? In the games, the hitboxes for Rising Phoenix and Rising Falcon were based on the effect and not the character, though Lloyd's swords still damage during the ending lag of the move (I think this is unique to Lloyd), even after the wind is gone, which caught me out many a time in Soul Calibur Legends.

 

[GP&B]

Looking at the animation itself, Lloyd does swing his swords out and a bit behind him when reaching the ground and while sliding for a bit. I could check the PSA on that, but I have no idea how bone IDs are assigned in it when compared to looking at the bones in BrawlBox. If someone could tell me how that's done, I could actually do some hitbox work as well as more detailed animation work.

The first bits of GFX for Tiger Blade have been completed. I'll get the two screens up in a moment.

Launching off the ground:

And coming back down:

It spreads a little wider than what appears in the pictures so you can imagine that it looks a bit better in-game. Just this alone is a really nice touch when you consider the lack of sword trails (which are a substantial part of Lloyd's graphic effects).

 

[ryuu seika]

That is a rather nice effect.

As for Rising Falcon, the specific trick with it is to hit an opponent behind you with the back hitbox during the pause between rising and falling. It has practically no knockback in the games so it can rack up a good 5 hits or so if done right and is thus a pretty effective way to rack up damage against weak monsters.
And for the landing lag hitboxes, they would be on Lloyds swords which stretch out behind him. He would still be hittable from the front and from above (and below if on a platform).

 

[GP&B]

I never knew about that effect. I was only aware of the persistent sword hitboxes afterward.

I'm probably going to read up on how to get the correlating bone IDs. I think I found a good GFX for Sword Rain.

 

[ryuu seika]

Kirby's Jab effects might fit for that.

The Rising Phoenix/Falcon effect is a sneaky little trick that I learnt from ToE. It's much harder in the 3D games, obviously. I brought it up before and it seemed to go down well so it might be in there already.

EDIT: does non-heavy Tiger Blade have a landing effect like that? I don't remember it.

 

[GP&B]

Kirby's jab effect, IIRC, is within his files so we can't necessarily use it.

Oh, I know exactly what trick you're talking about now in ToE.

And I'm not sure. I'll double-check. I'm about to check effects on Beast right now so I'll get to that in a moment.

EDIT: Yes, there's an effect very similar to the current one I just posted in screenshots that's in the basic Tiger Blade. In addition to that, there's another effect that's commonly used in Tiger Blade and Demon Fang (and it actually originates from ToE) and that's the little rise out of the ground.

 

[ryuu seika]

I knew that second effect was present for Demon Fang and Light Spear (ToS version) but I'd forgotten it was on Tiger Blade.

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, just look at the animation reference video in the OP and you can look over all of them (even if it's not exactly a clean video).

Currently working on Rising Falcon. I'm adding a few more of those "wave" effects that occur in the dive along with a landing effect.

 

[ryuu seika]

Good luck with that.
I've got nothing more to add right now and watching that Arte exhibition makes me sad. All that fire element and no Kaenrekku .

 

[GP&B]

Additional effects to the dive:

And a landing effect:

And yeah, I want to find a better arte exhibition video than that one.

 

[ryuu seika]

Woah! Those effects are stunning!
Aren't his swords supposed to stay behind him until after he lands though?

I think I have another Arte exhibition favourited, I'll have a look.

EDIT: Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM_t7Gg1p7U
It's in japanese so it has everything. Possibly even unison artes.

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, it's in the later frames of the animation. However, the animation literally ends 2 frames after this so you can't actually make any use of that. I just have to add a few more frames for that to fix it, but Rising Falcon still needs to be fixed so that it always has the momentum at the end rather than being really inconsistent. I might look into it if it isn't too difficult to figure out.

Also, after seeing Chirisazame/Sword Rain, the amount of hits that Sword Rain on the PSA actually incurs needs to be changed.

And man, I love Shikou Bakuenjin.

EDIT: Made a change to Sonic Thrust's animation. For whatever reason, Lloyd pointed the sword at a slight angle tilted upwards, when it's supposed to be parallel with the ground. I'm going to refine its effects a little bit too.

 

[Royal_Blade]

Well, I looked at the video, here's what I can tell you:

For Tiger Blade, add "1D" with the other effects.

For Demonic Circle, "E" (followed by "F" for a nice effect) at the first swing, then "56" at the slam.

"59" for Sonic Thrust/Rising Falcon. You have those, so keep them. (I have a suggestion about Side Special while i'll explain later.)

For Beast, use "46" (multiple times if it can be turn sideways) during the shoulder charge."36", "F", and "1E" ("1E" a few times) once the Lion's head is released.

"1E" when Lloyd lifts off the ground at the start of Tempest.

Not sure about Demon Fang. Could you also somehow fix the effect? Like the actual projectile?

Now, about Side Special. I just thought of it. Could you make it work like Samus' Missile? Like how the normal Side Special is Missile while you can Smash Special to use a Super Missile. Could you have Rising Falcon as the normal Side Special and have Rising Phoenix as the Smash Special?
If you include this, use "70" (possibly with "41") while diving, "26" during landing frames, use "3" if someone gets hit during Rising Phoenix. Have "12" occurring often around Lloyd throughout the attack.

Uh... I think that's it.

"84" is a definite Falcon's Crest effect! Once that comes around.

Edit: Use "1E" during Rising Falcon's landing instead of the blue effect you have in the picture.

 

[GP&B]

Alright, thanks. Some of those I was already thinking of using so it's good that we match up here.

Demon Fang itself is a model. It could technically be modified to look more like the projectile from the game itself.

From what I've read, Smash Special is a trait specifically tied to Samus, hardcoded per se, so no other character can make use of it.

After looking at the arte video again, 1E does seem more accurate. I'll change that out then.

Any ideas for the frontal wave that comes out of the ground from moves like Tiger Blade and Demon Fang?

EDIT: Problem here with 1E for landing. It's a 2D effect, compared to 9 which is a 3D effect. It looks better in theory (like in the video on a black background), but 9 just works better.

 

[GP&B]

Ok, I seriously think I'm on the verge of making sword trails work. I'm imported two of Marth's sword trail images over two of Wolf's external effects (both same size, 64x64). I just don't have a clue on how to reference it so I'm looking it up.

EDIT1: No luck. I need a more knowledgeable person to help me on this. I absolutely feel like this is within reach and would help the project, aesthetically speaking, immensely.

EDIT2: Three new GFX updates.

First, Tempest.

The effect that indicates you leaving the ground doesn't like to appear. I'll mess around with it some more.

Dash attack gets sword trail.

Finally, some testing with Psi Tempest effects. They only appear if you perform it moving backwards though. The coding needs to be refined so that you just use Go To commands to significantly cut down on lines and size and reduce redundancy.

Additional effects have been added to Sonic Thrust, but it's not cleaned up enough yet to show clearly. Rising Falcon also has an effect for when Lloyd jumps off the ground (GFX 09).

 

[Royal_Blade]

Nice sword trail's! And awesome effects!

For the jump of Rising Falcon, I think "A" would be a better choice.

Aw man, I can't wait for this!

Gamedominator, do you have any ideas for Grabs & Throws? I have good idea (to me) for most of them.

Oh, could you also change his guard animation to the ToS1 version? And make his Spot dodge a Guardian animation? Use "1F" or "7F" for a shield look-a-like. and use "E" then "F" for the ground effect. Guardian will do nothing special, just act's as a spot dodge. A tad longer than most.

Edit: Can you resize "1F" to make it more shield-sized?

 

[ryuu seika]

Those white trails really don't look every good still but I suspect they look better in motion.
It's good to hear you're getting somewhere with the sword glows, hope you can find someone to help with that.

 

[GP&B]

Nice sword trail's! And awesome effects!

For the jump of Rising Falcon, I think "A" would be a better choice.

Aw man, I can't wait for this!

Gamedominator, do you have any ideas for Grabs & Throws? I have good idea (to me) for most of them.

Oh, could you also change his guard animation to the ToS1 version? And make his Spot dodge a Guardian animation? Use "1F" or "7F" for a shield look-a-like. and use "E" then "F" for the ground effect. Guardian will do nothing special, just act's as a spot dodge. A tad longer than most.

Edit: Can you resize "1F" to make it more shield-sized?

The sword trails aren't quite what I'm looking for. They were already there in the code, but I doubled the length they trail out to be a bit more noticeable (I matched the length to Marth's). The real problem here is getting the textures to load onto them.

"A" would be a good alternative. I'll try that instead to vary up the effects.

I forget if the default moveset had any definitive grab/throw moves in it. I could check that. Otherwise, I don't really have any ideas.

The ToS1 guard animation should be pretty simple to do. I don't remember if the current guard animation is actually guardian, but I'll check when I get to doing more GFX stuff today. And yes, effects are very easy to resize as needed.

Those white trails really don't look every good still but I suspect they look better in motion.
It's good to hear you're getting somewhere with the sword glows, hope you can find someone to help with that.

Motion does help, but like I said, it's trying to get a texture onto there so that it can apply alpha transparency and just look good in the first place. I think SqLeon already has the parameters in the sword glow/trail code to load them, but they either aren't noticeable or aren't working in the same manner that I can't seem to load trails off the external files. What I am interested in trying though is seeing if making the blades themselves (not including the hilts) semi-transparent.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Hmmm..... it seems you guys aren't using extra bones...... be aware that we can remap hurtboxes permenantly if it's dislocated or asymetrical...

Also, I can fix where Lloyd holds items.

If you want, I can do that, after I go to the post office.

 

[GP&B]

That'd be great, EY! Lloyd does kind of hold it strangely although it's almost in the right place. Is that a moveset/FitWolf.pac thing? If it is, let me send you my current GFX update before you start so I don't have to redo my current stuff.

As far as I know, Lloyd has all of the bones he came with which I'm assuming means no extra bones. If hitboxes need to be tweaked or at least reassigned properly, that'd be nice to get fixed.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Yes it's dictated by the moveset.pac.

 

[ryuu seika]

I smell progress!

 

[Royal_Blade]

The sword trails aren't quite what I'm looking for. They were already there in the code, but I doubled the length they trail out to be a bit more noticeable (I matched the length to Marth's). The real problem here is getting the textures to load onto them.

"A" would be a good alternative. I'll try that instead to vary up the effects.

I forget if the default moveset had any definitive grab/throw moves in it. I could check that. Otherwise, I don't really have any ideas.

The ToS1 guard animation should be pretty simple to do. I don't remember if the current guard animation is actually guardian, but I'll check when I get to doing more GFX stuff today. And yes, effects are very easy to resize as needed.

I was talking about the sword trails that are on newer attacks. But yes, they do need textures.

Let me know if their is any grabs and throws that could be changed, I have some ideas.

I wasn't sure if effects could've been resized or not, that's good that they can be!

Also, how can the thrown glitch be fixed. The thing when he'd sometimes instantly get Star KO'd whenever he's thrown by someone. Is that due to hitboxes?

Edit: Could you make the trail length like 1.5? They're so long on Tempest. They'd probably look better with textures though.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Instant star KOs? That may have to do with the location of ThrowN(or the bone you are using in it's place, in certain animations, like the Throwing, Catch, and Capture animations.