TAKE THAT! Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney smashes the prosecution!

TemporalShrew

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So I'm curious. With Phoenix pretty much being a total no-show at TGS, when do we all think he's going to resurface? This would have been the perfect time to reveal AA7, and we know, ostensibly, that they're working on it, so does this mean it's going to be another year-plus before we hear any news whatsoever about Ace Attorney?
 

Korar

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So I'm curious. With Phoenix pretty much being a total no-show at TGS, when do we all think he's going to resurface? This would have been the perfect time to reveal AA7, and we know, ostensibly, that they're working on it, so does this mean it's going to be another year-plus before we hear any news whatsoever about Ace Attorney?
My guess? Either TGS next year, or we'll see him in smash. or both.
 

TemporalShrew

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My guess? Either TGS next year, or we'll see him in smash. or both.
This is my expectation as well, which is unfortunate.

I ask in part because almost every other character who's made it into Smash for DLC thus far has had something going on with Nintendo, no matter how minor.

Joker had PQ2 and Persona 5: Scramble. Hero had the big, definitive port of DQXI. And although SNK hasn't done anything huge this year on Switch, they put out their 40th Anniversary collection on Switch last December, around when DLC was finalized. The only exception is Banjo, and honestly, Banjo is an exception in almost every metric you could measure DLC picks by, because he got in entirely on fan demand.

So my fear is that, if AA is dormant for too long, it could be passed over in Smash for a more active Capcom series.
 

Sonsa

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Maybe Phoenix will be the uhh...10th DLC character, shown off about a year from now around the next TGS!

Mm... as far as that dormant stuff goes, do we know how well the Ace Attorney trilogy did on the Switch? And other consoles I guess too. Maybe we could compare them with the success SNK games got on the switch and see if we're not too far off...?
 

TemporalShrew

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Maybe Phoenix will be the uhh...10th DLC character, shown off about a year from now around the next TGS!

Mm... as far as that dormant stuff goes, do we know how well the Ace Attorney trilogy did on the Switch? And other consoles I guess too. Maybe we could compare them with the success SNK games got on the switch and see if we're not too far off...?
The very limited information I can find in this regard suggests that the most recent releases of SNK games on Switch and the AA Trilogy sold similar numbers (and not particularly high ones, though this isn't surprising given how many ways you can get the Trilogy). So that much is good. And it's not like many people were screaming for an SNK character.

I guess I'm just a little on-edge about how much it would suck to get
1. No Phoenix in Smash, and
2. No news about Ace Attorney for more than a year.
 
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So I'm curious. With Phoenix pretty much being a total no-show at TGS, when do we all think he's going to resurface? This would have been the perfect time to reveal AA7, and we know, ostensibly, that they're working on it, so does this mean it's going to be another year-plus before we hear any news whatsoever about Ace Attorney?
In November when he gets announced as Fighter #5.

(Or just in any Nintendo Direct I think Ace Attorney would definitely align itself with Ninty for announcements. Another alternative is Famitsu, didn't AA5 & 6 get announced there?)
 

TemporalShrew

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In November when he gets announced as Fighter #5.

(Or just in any Nintendo Direct I think Ace Attorney would definitely align itself with Ninty for announcements. Another alternative is Famitsu, didn't AA5 & 6 get announced there?)
I'll be damned, you're right. AA6 at least (I didn't check AA5, but you're probably right) was announced just before TGS in Famitsu.

Huh. Maybe if we're really lucky, they'll reveal AA7 in May 2020's Famitsu, so they can detail it at E3?
 
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I'll be damned, you're right. AA6 at least (I didn't check AA5, but you're probably right) was announced just before TGS in Famitsu.

Huh. Maybe if we're really lucky, they'll reveal AA7 in May 2020's Famitsu, so they can detail it at E3?
Could be.

Y'know, now that I think about it, I recall how one day I was bored out of my mind, just randomly browsing the AA wiki, when I saw an image of a character I wasn't familiar with. It was Athena. I dug deeper and I found out that somehow a new Ace Attorney game had been announced and I hadn't heard of it. (Nor did I understand why this Japanese magazine I'd never heard of had all the scoops)

Nowadays I would probably find out immediately but man, that was a holy **** moment I'll never forget.
 
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Just settle down, it's just Capcom being Capcom. They hyperfocus on a few IPs, and ignore or not nearly pay as much attention to the rest for some amount of time. Which IPs in question shifts a bit over time.

Atlus fans have to wait longer compared to this, especially concerning mainline Shin Megami Tensei titles...
 
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Just settle down, it's just Capcom being Capcom. They hyperfocus on a few IPs, and ignore or not nearly pay as much attention to the rest for some amount of time. Which IPs in question shifts a bit over time.

Atlus fans have to wait longer compared to this, especially concerning mainline Shin Megami Tensei titles...
At this rate, I'm sure SMTV was an elaborate illusion.
With how SoJ ended, I wouldn't be surprised if they're having conflicts deciding where to take the series next, didn't DD take a pretty long time to come out compared to the gap between T&T and AJ?
 
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It's super weird seeing people get concerned over Ace Attorney when I very much remember the AJ/DD gap and think it's incredible we even got DD in the first place. I legitimately thought we never would.
my guess is that we had 2 spinoffs (one which never was localized but I guess it counts?) released and the crossover with Layton announced in the meantime (and that one felt like it took forever to be localized). Even then, this gap is around the same size as T&T to AJ in Japan if I'm not miscounting, I wouldn't be worrying about AA health yet.
 

THE SLOTH

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As someone who started playing the series after SoJ had already been out for a year iirc, it's hard to 100% grasp the gaps of dormancy the series ended up going through sometimes. The gap between AJ and DD was about 6 years, and SoJ came out on June 9, 2016 for Japan, September 8, 2016 for other territories. So, SoJ has now been out for 3 years now as of a few days ago. We could hear of AA7 within the next year, next three years, or even further. My guesses as to what's taking so long is:

A) Similar to AA -> DD, they're trying to transition to a new platform and are creating/recreating/updating a lot of assets. Not as big of a jump from the 2D DS era to the 3D 3DS/Mobile Phone era, but still significant if they're going to be trying for higher quality models and avoiding some of the slight oddities from the 3D era.

And/Or

B) SoJ left the main cast in an odd position, and the writing team is trying to figure out where to take things from there. Apollo's in Khura'in, running his late stepfather's law agency and repairing a country's broken legal system. Wright and Maya are back together for the time being, if the DLC case of SoJ is anything to go off of, so maybe the classic Wright/Maya/Edgeworth power trio could get focus again? And Athena's... there. Has been since DD, and kinda hasn't been given much development since (except for 6-4, which could've been a much better case if it wasn't just one trial day). It's hard to say which direction they'll take things next, or who they'll try to focus on.
 

Arctiq

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B) SoJ left the main cast in an odd position, and the writing team is trying to figure out where to take things from there. Apollo's in Khura'in, running his late stepfather's law agency and repairing a country's broken legal system. Wright and Maya are back together for the time being, if the DLC case of SoJ is anything to go off of, so maybe the classic Wright/Maya/Edgeworth power trio could get focus again? And Athena's... there. Has been since DD, and kinda hasn't been given much development since (except for 6-4, which could've been a much better case if it wasn't just one trial day). It's hard to say which direction they'll take things next, or who they'll try to focus on.
I'd like to see them go into a reboot of sorts. Just have the next game be the classic trio but with new wacky characters. They could throw in Athena and Apollo too as side characters or cameos.
 

Flyboy

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I just want an Athena game. Down to Earth like the original trilogy, Phoenix as the mentor, Apollo phones in some time, and we get a fresh take on the stories and world as Athena cuts her teeth as the new second lawyer at the WAA. She's basically in the same position Phoenix was in in the original trilogy skill-wise, if not a little more involved because of her different take and two trial experience.
 
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I have to say, the topic of Phoenix remaining the lead character runs a whole lot deeper than what we see on the surface, culturally-speaking.

Succession is a pretty fickle thing in Japan. You have the weight of expectations (and bricks) on your shoulders when you are the son or successor of a guy that's been successful before you, and if you can't live up to them, odds are you're never going to get any due respect. This trait runs so deep in Japanese culture that it also extended into fanbases of certain characters in various media. Take Mazinger Z for instance; every attempt at having Koji Kabuto be succeeded by a new lead character was met lukewarmly at best, rejected at worst, to the point that modern retellings or sequels make sure to cast him as the lead so that fans remain pleased, bonus points if he's seldom allowed to lose in battle. It doesn't help that there's the habit of doubling down on the tried and true over there, when trying something new or different doesn't seem to work or be received well on the first attempt.

At least Capcom allowed Nero in Devil May Cry to become awesome by 5. So it's a question of time and acceptance in regards to whether Apollo and Athena will be granted optimal treatment as well.
 
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I just feel Phoenixs story had a pretty fantastic conclusion by the end of T&T, I really don't feel there's much more growth you can give the guy, and I really didn't like his hobo incarnation nor how he still reeks of rookiness post-hobo phase. I still want to see the guy, but as said above, I want to see him as more of a guiding figure. It's part of the reason why I feel AJ, DD and SoJ just never reached the same heights the original trilogy did.
I also feel Athena was done dirty in both of the 3DS games, they hype up this new lawyer that gets like 1 case per game and she never shows much competence as she's always on the brink of a mental breakdown until Blackquill/Phoenix barge in
don't get me started on how pointless giving her black psyche lockes was
 

Sonsa

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Phoenix's story wrapped up great in T&T, but there's still a few things I'm curious about that only really pertain to him. Like...if a certain someone is still in jail and uhh...
Iris haha

But his role in Apollo Justice was perfect! It's a one time story that wrapped up perfectly, love it, and while I think he was a bit off (too...poetic sometimes?) being this mentor dad guy that was doing secret investigating in the background leading up to this 7 year plan, it's perfect. I don't hate Phoenix in DD and SoJ, but...I guess it iiis my least favorite Phoenix when considering AJ and the trilogy... he can still be a dork, he can still be surprised, that's more in character, but Phoenix was so...cooool in AJ! And I'm not talking about the weird poetic parts either, I mean the stuff that was just...post-trilogy Phoenix! Phoenix, but experienced!
Like, paraphrasing but -
Someone: Ready to cry Phoenix?? Ready to admit what a sorry loser you really are??
Phoenix, still in his idle animation: .....Before I do that, I'd like you all to look at this evidence.
and of course
Phoenix, presenting a picture of someone: This is...I don't remember his name, something weird...but he's [important]

It's still Phoenix being a cynical dork as usual, but he's more unfazed now, more focused I guess?? DD Phoenix to me, and DD in general, feels more...goofy, cheesy, it still does a good job of making me laugh and then cutting the music and sending chills, but the humor in it is more.....I don't know.....kind of embarrassing to me personally...? I think SoJ was definitely a step in the right direction, but yeah where to go from here...

I guess my ideal Phoenix moving forward is
Flashback Phoenix from AJ, a mix of his AJ self and the trilogy self! Not a rookie anymore, but totally cynical dork trilogy Phoenix. Just Phoenix...but experienced!
Experienced Phoenix is the most...funny, cool, human, genuine, augh, more of that guy please! But like! Just in the background really! Ya visit the office and chat with him, and maybe in a case 4 you play as him and do some secret investigating to find a key witness or decisive evidence! Orrr, your main character needs to do something vital like that so Phoenix takes over in court for a bit!

I know I'm rambling again, ugh, kind of a stream of consciousness thing while I work over my own feelings instead of communicating them consicely, hope it aint too annoying, but AJ was so close, it made Phoenix feel really legendary. He does one specific pose once in the whole game and it means so much. I don't want Phoenix to retire, but I guess I'd like the spotlight off him to make him feel as legendary as he did in AJ. Distance makes the heart grow fonder or somethin like that? SoJ was definitely a step in the right direction cause the spotlight was more on Apollo but he and Athena were kind of holding down the fort while Phoenix was in off on his own mission. So I think they definitely got the right vibe and tried to get closer to that, and yeah some stuff was kinda ehh like re-using an idea from JFA, but it was definitely...closer...

LONG STORY SHORT: ...um...so yeah, I guess that's what I want out of Phoenix in the future. Just...Trilogy Phoenix but experienced, close to his AJ version...

I didn't talk about Athena at all...she could be a cool main character! Maybe some seeds planted in DD could become super cool concepts and twists in 7... I dunno! They might do another timeskip for all I know! Or a whole new universe! (Though I don't see them confident enough to ditch Phoenix, and I ain't really hoping they do either haha) But it all has potential to be cool!
 

THE SLOTH

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On the subject of plot threads they could come back to, one that comes to mind pertaining to Athena is
What corporation or country hired The Phantom to sabotage the HAT-1 launch in DD? iirc the Phantom is something of a hitman, countries, corrupt politicians and the like hire him to do shady stuff, I thought maybe unraveling some kind of conspiracy as to who hired the Phantom to do that could make for a good challenge for Athena? Also, possibly who sniped the Phantom from the broken rooftop of the courtroom at the end? I mean, easy answer is Shelly de Killer, and I feel like if Capcom ever does directly/indirectly answer this question, that's how they'll explain it, but still.

Bringing back some classic trilogy mainstays would be awesome too, like Gumshoe, Mia
Franziska
As long as their returns are justified, and not just forced back into a story they might not have any business being in or contributing to for the sake of fanservice (Maya kinda ended up like this in SoJ imo).
 
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the return of Edgeworth, Pearl and Maya is nothing short of forced in the 3DS duology, I don't recall Emas participation in the Investigations games being all that graceful either, but it's not as bad.
 
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I'm in the camp of the writing staff have absolutely no clue where to take the series after making the horrible 3DS duology and are trying to find a way for it to make sense in the next game.

didnt seem forced to me at all
Maya's return kinda made sense for the plot but Pearl and Edgeworth's were so forced, Pearl did nothing and Edgeworth feels like a total deux ex machina a lot of the time.

I have to say, the topic of Phoenix remaining the lead character runs a whole lot deeper than what we see on the surface, culturally-speaking.

Succession is a pretty fickle thing in Japan. You have the weight of expectations (and bricks) on your shoulders when you are the son or successor of a guy that's been successful before you, and if you can't live up to them, odds are you're never going to get any due respect. This trait runs so deep in Japanese culture that it also extended into fanbases of certain characters in various media. Take Mazinger Z for instance; every attempt at having Koji Kabuto be succeeded by a new lead character was met lukewarmly at best, rejected at worst, to the point that modern retellings or sequels make sure to cast him as the lead so that fans remain pleased, bonus points if he's seldom allowed to lose in battle. It doesn't help that there's the habit of doubling down on the tried and true over there, when trying something new or different doesn't seem to work or be received well on the first attempt.

At least Capcom allowed Nero in Devil May Cry to become awesome by 5. So it's a question of time and acceptance in regards to whether Apollo and Athena will be granted optimal treatment as well.
A lot of the time a good reason for this is that a lot of successor characters are diet versions of the character they are replacing, or just a flat out copy of them. The only example of a next generation story done right that I can see was Fatal fury doing it, the protagonist of that game felt like his own man and not just diet Terry.
 
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Castlevania fared generally well with that, since :ultsimon: is a pretty simple template to go on from for future Belmonts (well, that and most games in there typically occur centuries away, not to mention Castlevania 2 being divisive enough to cause the switch to a new hero for CV3 in the first place). Only stopped working with Lords of Shadow 2 though.
 
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Dukemon102

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Castlevania fared generally well with that, since :ultsimon: is a pretty simple template to go on from for future Belmonts (well, that and most games in there typically occur centuries away, not to mention Castlevania 2 being divisive enough to cause the switch to a new hero for CV3 in the first place). Only stopped working with Lords of Shadow 2 though.
The Belmonts were very simple, almost no one of them had any personality. Basically they were playable sprites. It was when Igarashi took over the series that we started to see characters with distinct personalities and even a fairly big rotation of non-Belmont main characters. Alucard, Soma, Hector, John and Charlotte, Shanoa... and all of that worked and was received very well with Castlevania because almost all of those games had auto-conclusive plots.

With Ace Attorney, we always have to consider continuity, and at this point. Many, many characters had ran their course and it's showing.
Phoenix basically has nothing to do, to the point they had to regress him to a novice and a bluff-comedy guy to make him work in DD. And in SoJ he's just reacting to everything that happens around him. The plots were interesting, specially when they put him in a Civil Trial against Apollo. But that all came at the expense of ruining or ignoring the growth he had across the OG Trilogy.
Edgeworth also had his full character-arc completed by AAI2 (I'm actually very surprised they found even more story to dig in with Edgeworth after 1-4), Maya had almost no relevancy in SoJ outside of being the victim (again), Pearl just appears for the sake of fan-service (IMO not even the 5-DLC plot convinced me that she should have been there). If they can't find a purpose to use any of this characters, they shouldn't use them at all.
What I think Phoenix should do? Well guys, have you seen Rocky in the Creed movies or Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond? I think that's what they should do with him (Just don't make him too old).

Actually, I think Apollo was the best written character in DD and SoJ. Even if the context might not convince everybody. His character growth and dialogue was so good (Specially that line with Kristoph's pose in DD, it gave me chills). I'm actually worried what the writers can do now that their best character is gone.
They shouldn't have sent Apollo far away and instead make a story to resolve ALL the plot-points that were left hanging out in AA-AJ. All of that had so much potential. I'm still wondering about Kristoph's black psylockes, and the fact that Trucy and Apollo are blood-related and how they are going to react to this information. But oh well. I guess it's better to make (AKA retcon) new stuff and bury the interesting plot-points that needed closure.

I don't hate the 3DS games, but they are a case of wanting to appeal to nostalgia and newcomers that might know of "Phoenix Wright" instead of continuing the series with proper and good ideas.
 
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TemporalShrew

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I kind of want the team to pull a Dai Gyakuten Saiban and introduce a totally new lawyer with a new peripheral cast, but in a modern setting. There are plenty of plot points to attempt to tie up with the existing cast, to be sure, but I just feel like more interesting things could be done if they introduced an entirely new group of characters and a new plot, rather than desperately attempting to make sense of what they've already got.
 

Korar

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Even though the 3DS games aren't the greatest in the series, i personally still love them and think they did a lot right.
But if i can express one complaint, although it's kinda minor and i never see anyone bringing it up... don't edgeworth's voice clips sound kinda weird to anyone else? they sound super.. off to me.

The thing is, i think all the other voice clips sound totally fine to me, yeah the voice acting in the cutscenes isn't great, but the actual clips for objections and others sound exactly right to me... just not edgeworth. kinda weird.
 
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Even though the 3DS games aren't the greatest in the series, i personally still love them and think they did a lot right.
But if i can express one complaint, although it's kinda minor and i never see anyone bringing it up... don't edgeworth's voice clips sound kinda weird to anyone else? they sound super.. off to me.

The thing is, i think all the other voice clips sound totally fine to me, yeah the voice acting in the cutscenes isn't great, but the actual clips for objections and others sound exactly right to me... just not edgeworth. kinda weird.
Edgeworth does sound hella weird, and I also can't get used to new Phoenix (why does he sound younger than the original?)
 

fogbadge

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Pearl's return definitely felt forced to me in DD. It only becomes more natural if you play the DLC case after the first or second case.
well the problem there comes from capcoms over all attitude to dlc

Maya's return kinda made sense for the plot but Pearl and Edgeworth's were so forced, Pearl did nothing and Edgeworth feels like a total deux ex machina a lot of the time.
.
too each their own
 

Flyboy

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Him being from the Kingdom of Kurain felt like one of the biggest jumping of the shark moments I've ever seen in a work of fiction, and I feel like they only did this to justify bringing Maya back.
My issues with Spirit of Justice run deep and that's a big one at that. It sucks because the game is packed full of fascinating moments broken up by poor pacing and unnecessary bloat. It's almost hard to believe that this is the same game with the Mr. Reus case, one of my absolute favorite cases in the series.

They tried so hard to appeal to an old subset of fans and ended up pleasing very few people as a result. Maya didn't even get to do anything new. Was putting her in her old role really necessary? It was so weird and reductive and bland. There was so much in the game that felt cynical and heartless, like "oh you didn't like the cool stuff we did for DD? **** you, here's your Maya, I guess."

Though again as a fandom oldie I got so tired so fast of everyone calling literally any new assistant character a "Maya clone" so maybe the fandom brought it on themselves by refusing to accept any changes to the status quo. I just hope the next game can figure itself out because having one deeply flawed game in a series where every single other game is at least Quite Good is hardly a bad record.
 

Sonsa

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Oh wow, I didn't have issues with SoJ like that personally. They did have Maya do a lot of stuff she did again which I think could have been better, but was kind of a trip down memory lane before her big graduation and she was part of one of the best twists for me! The DLC case also gives me what I actually want which is just to see her and Phoenix tease each other haha

I think my biggest issues with the last two games have been:

1. The 3D never sat right with me? Their use of models have allowed them to do really cool things, and SoJ really polished things up and made many impressive! But Phoenix and Apollo are just a bit off sometimes and Trucy and Klavier really seem...not right unfortunately despite how hard they seem to have tried. And when shots of the gallery chatting happen and it sweeps the courtroom I can't help but always look at how awkwardly the prosecutors are standing...

2. Just generally more cheesy? Like, no big spoiler or anything, but Dual Destinies kind of ends with people yelling at someone about how emotions are good and friendship is good and truth is good... I like the last case of DD and the breakdown is super cool, but I like the chilling end of AJ better with...y'know...the echoing laugh~ Or T&T's interpretive question of really why someone did what they did, could go either way, what do you believe? That's more interesting and provocative to me then...y'know... "emotions...are good!"
 
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I feel like Athena would be better received as a character of she wasn't a main character.
Say, like a recurring character like Larry, Oldbag, Lotta or Adrian.

I feel like making her essentially the main character of Dual destinies really hurt the series in the long run because now they have to juggle her screen time alongside Phoenix and Apollo.
 

TemporalShrew

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I feel like Athena would be better received as a character of she wasn't a main character.
Say, like a recurring character like Larry, Oldbag, Lotta or Adrian.

I feel like making her essentially the main character of Dual destinies really hurt the series in the long run because now they have to juggle her screen time alongside Phoenix and Apollo.
I feel like they need to stop trying to have three protagonists. It doesn't work because it can't work in a straightforward chronological narrative like Ace Attorney. We need to hyper-focus on one of them and let everyone else be the supporting cast, really address that particular character's concerns, and maybe handle some small development on the side for the others. The OT worked because Phoenix was the only protagonist. Apollo Worked because although Phoenix was a major presence, Apollo got enough of the spotlight to feel fleshed-out.

DD and SoJ, while I contend they're still great overall, just have too many things to deal with, and there's no way they can deal with things satisfactorily in one game without dedicating too little time to someone.

I'm interested to hear what they do with AA7, as I recall reading that Takumi was involved in some capacity, which I feel should help with some of the problems the last two games have had.
 

Dukemon102

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I actually think DD nailed the balance between the three characters. Phoenix had his grand return, even if he a was little out of character, we knew of Athena's past and she had a case for her, and Apollo did the transition between AJ and DD very well and had a great growth as a character in the cases 4-5.
It's in SoJ where Athena got the shaft and they probably made a plot too ambicious for its own good.

I haven't played DGS yet. But I'm eagering to see what Takumi did when he started fresh.
 
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Flyboy

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I actually think DD nailed the balance between the three characters. Phoenix had its grand return, even if he a was little out of character, we knew of Athena's past and she had a case for her, and Apollo did the transition between AJ and DD very well and had a great growth as a character in the cases 4-5.
It's in SoJ where Athena got the shaft and they probably made a plot too ambicious for its own good.

I haven't played DGS yet. But I'm eagering to see what Takumi did when he started fresh.
I completely agree.
 
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