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TAKE THAT! Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney smashes the prosecution!

TheYungLink

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I've been thinking about Phoenix Wright in Smash lately. Played the original trilogy and really enjoyed them many years ago.

One important question.

...what would they use for his up B? I draw a blank on that one.
Easy choice: a stepladder, referring to the ladder vs. stepladder debate the characters always have in the games.

Hard choice: the stepladder would probably only be understood by English-speaking fans, as the debate isn't present in the original Japanese versions of the game. Wyoming suggested a while back that Phoenix would just have an extra jump that snaps to the ledge, and when he grabs the ledge he goes "Hold it!" to represent Phoenix metaphorically coming back from the brink after being metaphorically beaten down from the witnesses and prosecution. Functionally boring, but thematically fitting at least.

Phoenix's up special is pretty difficult to figure out if you ignore the stepladder, yeah.
 

GoodGrief741

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I've been thinking about Phoenix Wright in Smash lately. Played the original trilogy and really enjoyed them many years ago.

One important question.

...what would they use for his up B? I draw a blank on that one.
I always imagined him using the Magatama for that, shooting out a Psyche Lock and chain for a tether recovery.
Easy choice: a stepladder, referring to the ladder vs. stepladder debate the characters always have in the games.

Hard choice: the stepladder would probably only be understood by English-speaking fans, as the debate isn't present in the original Japanese versions of the game. Wyoming suggested a while back that Phoenix would just have an extra jump that snaps to the ledge, and when he grabs the ledge he goes "Hold it!" to represent Phoenix metaphorically coming back from the brink after being metaphorically beaten down from the witnesses and prosecution. Functionally boring, but thematically fitting at least.

Phoenix's up special is pretty difficult to figure out if you ignore the stepladder, yeah.
Wait, they don't have ladder-stepladder debates in Japan? What do they have when inspecting ladders?
 

fogbadge

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I've been thinking about Phoenix Wright in Smash lately. Played the original trilogy and really enjoyed them many years ago.

One important question.

...what would they use for his up B? I draw a blank on that one.
i always pictured those epic sneezes from when he was a student throwing him upwards
 

Sonsa

Smash Champion
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Yeah,
- Stepladder/Ladder depending if you tap or hold the button
- Magatama chain tether
- Spawn a desk, desk slam propelling himself up
- Sneeze (chargable maybe)
- Take That Point! Another chargable possibility, he charges with "Take..." and just points, propelling himself in a direction while yelling "THAT!" and it would be like Rosa's up-b but chargable and with a strong hitbox on the point, kinda dumb but Little Mac just has a punch tornado so whatever pffft, plus it'd be fun to juggle someone, read an airdodge, and finish em with a risky up-b, I keep wanting to do that with Rosa anyway (and she kinda can with Luma, which I've done, but Luma dies all the time...)

I'd personally vote for the stepladder since it can be unique, faithful, and flexible - two recoveries in one! But they can get creative and make it whatever, sure haha
 

Wyoming

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Mr. Hat propels Phoenix in an arc is the hill I am dying on when it comes for recovery. I see it as the way "he" moves in Spirit of Justice's in-game cutscene in The Magical Turnabout.

Has Trucy somewhat involved then.
 
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EarlTamm

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Just poking my head in because I am curious on a thing and would love to hear your guys answer(I support by the way, just focusing on other things at the moment). While Phoenix on his own would be great and is what should be aimed for, who do you think would be the best candidate for an echo of him? Most lawyers from the series could pull it off(I say most because characters who are actually armed wouldn't fit Phoenix's moveset), so I am wondering what you guys would think. I am sorry if this has been asked before.
 

Sonsa

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Just poking my head in because I am curious on a thing and would love to hear your guys answer(I support by the way, just focusing on other things at the moment). While Phoenix on his own would be great and is what should be aimed for, who do you think would be the best candidate for an echo of him? Most lawyers from the series could pull it off(I say most because characters who are actually armed wouldn't fit Phoenix's moveset), so I am wondering what you guys would think. I am sorry if this has been asked before.
No prob at all, fun to discuss!

I used to say Edgeworth would be the perfect echo since he's borrowed the Magatama, is one of (if not THE) most popular character(s) in the series, a rival from the start, star of spin-offs, and he's pretty cool! But...ideally, for Phoenix to be the most faithful he can be, his animations should include a LOT of dorkiness! Edgeworth is also a dork for sure, but in a much different way, they'd have to change so many animations to be more confident, poised, smug, it would actually be a lot of work!

But Apollo...he has the same sarcasm, sassiness, and cynicism as Phoenix! He's even afraid of heights exactly like Phoenix is! They should change a few animations definitely, but they would have to change so much less, I can totally see those two fumbling the same ways, afraid in the same ways when they've jumped up high, their dorkiness definitely matches better! And I have a video where I say Phoenix uses the Magatama for a grab and Apollo uses his bracelet, but only as a visual difference, the damage and knockback and everything would be the same! Plus, representing the series passed the 7 year gap would be great, and I don't want to do it by showing off Phoenix's modern design just in case some few people can still enjoy some old surprises! So Phoenix+Apollo is perfect to me!
 

GoodGrief741

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Just poking my head in because I am curious on a thing and would love to hear your guys answer(I support by the way, just focusing on other things at the moment). While Phoenix on his own would be great and is what should be aimed for, who do you think would be the best candidate for an echo of him? Most lawyers from the series could pull it off(I say most because characters who are actually armed wouldn't fit Phoenix's moveset), so I am wondering what you guys would think. I am sorry if this has been asked before.
Edgeworth with different animations and dialogue and Gumshoe/Kay assisting him instead of Maya. Dark Samus level animation changes.
 

Flyboy

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Edgeworth with different animations and dialogue and Gumshoe/Kay assisting him instead of Maya. Dark Samus level animation changes.
This is the best choice.

Bonus if the Final Smash is a triple objection or thought route and Phoenix gets Apollo and Athena while Edgeworth gets Franziska and either Godot or Klavier.
 

EarlTamm

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No prob at all, fun to discuss!

I used to say Edgeworth would be the perfect echo since he's borrowed the Magatama, is one of (if not THE) most popular character(s) in the series, a rival from the start, star of spin-offs, and he's pretty cool! But...ideally, for Phoenix to be the most faithful he can be, his animations should include a LOT of dorkiness! Edgeworth is also a dork for sure, but in a much different way, they'd have to change so many animations to be more confident, poised, smug, it would actually be a lot of work!

But Apollo...he has the same sarcasm, sassiness, and cynicism as Phoenix! He's even afraid of heights exactly like Phoenix is! They should change a few animations definitely, but they would have to change so much less, I can totally see those two fumbling the same ways, afraid in the same ways when they've jumped up high, their dorkiness definitely matches better! And I have a video where I say Phoenix uses the Magatama for a grab and Apollo uses his bracelet, but only as a visual difference, the damage and knockback and everything would be the same! Plus, representing the series passed the 7 year gap would be great, and I don't want to do it by showing off Phoenix's modern design just in case some few people can still enjoy some old surprises! So Phoenix+Apollo is perfect to me!
Edgeworth with different animations and dialogue and Gumshoe/Kay assisting him instead of Maya. Dark Samus level animation changes.
This is the best choice.

Bonus if the Final Smash is a triple objection or thought route and Phoenix gets Apollo and Athena while Edgeworth gets Franziska and either Godot or Klavier.
I think Edgeworth would be the best option, as you would be representing another part of the franchise in the form of the prosecution and be adding a major fan favorite. My biggest worry against him would be if Phoenix's dorky side majorly came out in the his moveset, like that sneezing move in MvC3. But even then, echo's can have minor changes in stuff like that. I would love that sort of FS Flyboy Flyboy suggested, as it would be an Ace Attorney equivalent to :ultmegaman: and :ulthero:'s FS, and those are great!
 

fogbadge

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Mr. Hat propels Phoenix in an arc is the hill I am dying on when it comes for recovery. I see it as the way "he" moves in Spirit of Justice's in-game cutscene in The Magical Turnabout.

Has Trucy somewhat involved then.
well thered be no objections from me if that was his up special


thoughd thered probably be several objections from nick when we use him in smash, itd be odd if there werent
 

Sonsa

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Oh wait! I just remembered something maybe important? So, recently PushDustin translated some stuff Sakurai said about Banjo and Hero's inclusions! https://twitter.com/eventhubs/status/1144647296417583104 There's something kinda weird though...Sakurai says Banjo was "incredibly requested even after King K. Rool and Ridley made the cut" But like...I mean...we know they used the ballot for K. Rool and Ridley. But if he was looking at what fans wanted sometime after K. Rool's reveal and before DLC was finalized (shortly after Joker was announced at the VGA and the game came out) ...then uhhhh...like where was he looking? Because...I don't know, that effects some things...fans had kinda quieted down after assist trophy reveals for example, but as far as I can remember, Phoenix supporters have always been more hopeful about DLC than base roster anyway, so their presence should have been more, like, noticeable maybe?

I dunno, what do y'all think? What are some popular polls or ways Sakurai may have checked for fan requests between K. Rool's reveal and DLC's finalization? I don't know, uhhhh, probably not, but mayyybe something like this? It does fit in the time frame too...
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9ld79u/day_3434_results_randomized_smash_ultimate_poll/
Banjo did win this one after all! But probably not, seems like a more Western exclusive poll, but hey, he did say he looked at western requests too, so I don't know... Maybe there's a better, more world-wide poll I don't know about yet! But Phoenix scored pretty well in that poll though and I don't doubt he would have done well in similar ones, especially in that time frame...right?


I dunno, what do y'all think! If he peeked at other places besides the ballot, I wanna try and peek there too!
 
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Flyboy

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There was a spreadsheet that collected US and Japanese polls into a massive collected dataset and Phoenix consistently scored high all over.
 

Sonsa

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There was a spreadsheet that collected US and Japanese polls into a massive collected dataset and Phoenix consistently scored high all over.
Ooh! That sounds awesome! He did, we know that? I mean, I'd love to peek at it if possible...!
 

Sonsa

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Thanks! I love data like this! Phoenix does score really high and I don't even see a single Resident Evil rep in sight, but...it does also say up top that all the data reflects data from 2015's summer... Still cool and glad Phoenix did well, I have no doubts he's still doing well, but the new information makes it seem like Sakurai is looking at recent data, overwhelming requests for Banjo after Ridley and King K Rool have already been announced for Ultimate's base roster... That data would have to be from sometime between August 8th 2018 and November 6th 2018 (I thought it was December, but nah, couple days after Incineroar, shortly after DLC was announced actually) https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1059958604818657282
 
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GoodGrief741

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Thanks! I love data like this! Phoenix does score really high and I don't even see a single Resident Evil rep in sight, but...it does also say up top that all the data reflects data from 2015's summer... Still cool and glad Phoenix did well, I have no doubts he's still doing well, but the new information makes it seem like Sakurai is looking at recent data, overwhelming requests for Banjo after Ridley and King K Rool have already been announced for Ultimate's base roster... That data would have to be from sometime between August 8th 2018 and November 6th 2018 (I thought it was December, but nah, couple days after Incineroar, shortly after DLC was announced actually) https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1059958604818657282
If it's recent results you're looking for, there was a recent Reddit poll in which we placed... 5th? Can't remember, but it was definitely good, and that was before November (Isaac placed second). It was a very big poll too.

From a few other smaller polls both stateside and in Japan, PW has been a consistent high placer. It's a dedicated fanbase, for sure. Will that get him noticed?
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Actually, Nintendo Everything had a more clarified version of that quote: I can't find the article right now, but Sakurai had pretty much actually said that "K. Rool and BK had a lot of demand, and as he fulfills these character requests, he expects even more requests to come in the future".
 
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Sonsa

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If it's recent results you're looking for, there was a recent Reddit poll in which we placed... 5th? Can't remember, but it was definitely good, and that was before November (Isaac placed second). It was a very big poll too.

From a few other smaller polls both stateside and in Japan, PW has been a consistent high placer. It's a dedicated fanbase, for sure. Will that get him noticed?
I'm pretty sure that's the October Reddit poll I posted in my original message! Glad he's been consistent...!
Actually, Nintendo Everything had a more clarified version of that quote: I can't find the article right now, but Sakurai had pretty much actually said that "K. Rool and BK had a lot of demand, and as he fulfills these character requests, he expects even more requests to come in the future".
Oh, sorry, but I trust PushDustin way more than Nintendo Everything... Official sites like Game Informer or Kotaku look to PushDustin for ~official~ translations while Nintendo Everything has unfortunately translating things wrong and often spread misinformation. Including a time when they passed of a picture of Kirby's skeleton as official, when it was actually fanart? PushDustin made a thread on their kinda careless news, https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1133919407791468544 So I'd consider PushDustin's translation more accurate!

But hmm...Sakurai used the ballot to make Ultimate, yeah, that's why Ridley, K.Rool, and all past veternas got in and why some like Shovel Knight and Bomberman were thrown a bone as Assist Trophies. But, probably after Ridley's reveal, he was watching reactions and looking at requests in some place(s). He definitely looked at requests after K. Rool's reveal since he says he still saw lots for Banjo even after K. Rool was announced...

The biggest poll I could personally find that fits the time frame 8/8/2018 - 11/6/2018 is that big October Reddit one. He may not even have seen it, or maybe it's one of many things he saw. Banjo won it, but Joker and Hero don't appear at all, though he does say a lot of the requests were from western audiences... I wonder where else he may have looked that actually did maybe show Joker or Hero, though Nintendo or him may have picked those themselves, but still.

Either way, Phoenix scored high on this one and I don't doubt he consistently did well in that time frame...especially against Resident Evil, I still can't remember a poll that had any RE rep even place...especially not in that time frame? People only seem to talk about Resident Evil now, I don't remember anyone mentioning it much at all before recent times.

I just think like...if he's looking for requests around that time frame, umm, Phoenix support has always been consistent, he's not someone people just suddenly started talking about, and most support did seem to have the attitude of "yeah, not base, but DLC probably" I think I remember even the Rate the Chances thread around here, back in those times, before Ultimate came out, most people were like "eh 5% for base, buuut for DLC 60%" so SEEMS like general attitude and support for Phoenix around that time was consistent and focused on DLC. Which seems perfect, especially when knowing that Sakurai was looking. Pwsh, I've rambled a lot, but it's fun haha but hey if any of yall have big polls from anywhere really (Europe, Japan, etc) that were from August 8th 2018 to November 6th 2018 just off-hand, no trouble, but if ya do, lemme peek!

Edit: Oh, here's two polls from that timeframe! Banjo did great and Phoenix didn't do baaad! I knew I wasn't remembering wrong! While he may be under spirits and other fan favorites, he always seems to be the #1 Capcom request, even in polls I saw before this time frame, like a June one by Source Gaming where Phoenix got nearly double the votes of the runner up! Anyway, here are the polls that fit in the timeframe:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...firmed_characters_from_estimated_ballot_poll/
https://twitter.com/ssbunews/status/1037437559343865856?lang=en
Data like this is very fun for me haha, but yeah, nothing conclusive, I can't be sure where Sakurai was looking and saw Banjo requests. Banjo does great here so mayyybe these, the reddit one seems to reflect many polls, so...augh, yeah...removing spirits, Phoenix doesn't have many standing in his way usually...? But he definitely wasn't as requested as Banjo, so oof, tough to say...
 
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Northadox

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I've been thinking about Phoenix Wright in Smash lately. Played the original trilogy and really enjoyed them many years ago.

One important question.

...what would they use for his up B? I draw a blank on that one.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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3BitSaurus

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What makes me hopeful is that considering characters that have been confirmed/deconfirmed and that the Pass is probably all 3rd party, that would actually make Phoenix top 3 in that spreadsheet! Out of non-confirmed/deconfirmed characters, only Jibanyan is above him.
 

Sonsa

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I mean, again, Nintendo Everything often mistranslates things, PushDustin's translations are more reliable, and the big difference between these translations seems to be the detail of when Sakurai looked at Banjo requests - which I find to be super important...

As far as competition, according to that spreadsheet (which is based on data 4 years old at this point) yeah, not a lot, Jibanyan, but also Sora.

I can't really consider Sora deconfirmed yet, he's owned entirely by Disney so even if ya think Square only gets one new fighter, there ya go, and he iiis one of the most consistently requested characters, plus he's real popular and relevant anyway... I could totally see him popping up at the VGA or something!
 

3BitSaurus

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I can't really consider Sora deconfirmed yet, he's owned entirely by Disney so even if ya think Square only gets one new fighter, there ya go, and he iiis one of the most consistently requested characters, plus he's real popular and relevant anyway... I could totally see him popping up at the VGA or something!
I'm considering him deconfirmed, because while Disney holds the rights, Square would have to be at least contacted in some manner, as they are licensed to make the games and hold some of the material. So I think the vice-president of SE would know about that contact, at least. I'm taking it the same way I took Dante or 2B's deconfirmations.

Not gonna lie, though, I would be really happy if it ended up being true. Sora was my second most wanted after Banjo, which would make him my most wanted now if not for his deconfirmation.
 
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Sonsa

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I'm considering him deconfirmed, because while Disney holds the rights, Square would have to be at least contacted in some manner, as they are licensed to make the games and hold some of the material. So I think the vice-president of SE would know about that contact, at least. I'm taking it the same way I took Dante or 2B's deconfirmations.

Not gonna lie, though, I would be really happy if it ended up being true. Sora was my second most wanted after Banjo, which would make him my most wanted now if not for his deconfirmation.
Hm? Oh, did Square's Vice President say something I missed? If it's something similar to 2B's deconfirm, then yeah... Oh, okay, googled it, yeah, guess he's out! Wow, I mean, sorry, but that's a huge contender out of Phoenix's way, huh...and yeah, NDAs and anything's possible whatever, but yeah, best to consider him gone.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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So, how would Sakurai know of constant fan demand during Ultimate's DLC cycle? I doubt he would have found out about people asking for Joker relatively recently (before the VGA announcement) unless he had big enough breaks.

Also, for the last time, nothing says the fighter pass will just have third party characters outside of a really vague, easily misinterpreted general statement made by Reggie at the VGAs.

That being said...

I'm considering him deconfirmed, because while Disney holds the rights, Square would have to be at least contacted in some manner, as they are licensed to make the games and hold some of the material. So I think the vice-president of SE would know about that contact, at least. I'm taking it the same way I took Dante or 2B's deconfirmations.

Not gonna lie, though, I would be really happy if it ended up being true. Sora was my second most wanted after Banjo, which would make him my most wanted now if not for his deconfirmation.
When did he get deconfirmed? I only know of Hashimoto hastily deleting a tweet after responding to someone wanting Sora.

At any rate, I did stop hoping for Sora this time anyway, so it doesn't change much for me. :ohwell:
 
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Sonsa

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So, how would Sakurai know of constant fan demand during Ultimate's DLC cycle? I doubt he would have found out about people asking for Joker relatively recently (before the VGA announcement).

Also, for the last time, nothing says the fighter pass will just have third party characters outside of a really vague, easily misinterpreted general statement made by Reggie at the VGAs.

That being said...

When did he get deconfirmed? I only know of Hashimoto hastily deleting a tweet after responding to someone wanting Sora.

At any rate, I did stop hoping for Sora this time anyway, so it doesn't change much for me. :ohwell:
Well that's what I was asking, I wanted some more specificity, but he sees requests everywhere he goes, spammed on twitter, likely browses some polls here and there, we can't know for sure, but it's cool that he definitely saw ongoing demand for Banjo after Ridley and K.Rool's reveals and I can only hope he's seen ongoing demand for Phoenix too, especially after (this feels mean but) other fans lost hope from Assist Trophy announcements and stuff. And yeah, Nintendo characters might show up, Jibanyan ain't the ONLY competition, but just a fun statistic from a 4 year old poll anyway pffft, I think Sakurai's looking at more recent data anyway.

Oh, and here's that Sora deconfirmation, just googled "Sora deconfirmed" and it popped up: https://twitter.com/Forest_ier/status/1132956324671709184?s=20
 

3BitSaurus

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When did he get deconfirmed? I only know of Hashimoto hastily deleting a tweet after responding to someone wanting Sora.

At any rate, I did stop hoping for Sora this time anyway, so it doesn't change much for me. :ohwell:
About 2 weeks before Banjo's reveal, Hashimoto directly responded to a fan that asked if Sora was in Smash with a "No". Which, normally would be a direct deconfirmation, NDA crazyness aside.

Most companies, when under NDA, either change the subject (like what the Dead or Alive director and the Minecon crew did, so people didn't take what they were saying as deconfirmations for Hayabusa and Steve) or they go full radio silence, like Rare. So the assumption is that Hashimoto was telling the truth.

At least, I feel it's better to assume so than to keep expecting Sora and ending up disappointed.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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About 2 weeks before Banjo's reveal, Hashimoto directly responded to a fan that asked if Sora was in Smash with a "No". Which, normally would be a direct deconfirmation, NDA crazyness aside.

Most companies, when under NDA, either change the subject (like what the Dead or Alive director and the Minecon crew did, so people didn't take what they were saying as deconfirmations for Hayabusa and Steve) or they go full radio silence, like Rare. So the assumption is that Hashimoto was telling the truth.

At least, I feel it's better to assume so than to keep expecting Sora and ending up disappointed.
Good to know, Hashimoto hasn't spilled the beans about anything at all, so it must be true. Then there's all the silliness that happened in regards to MK11 DLC, but that's neither here nor there.
 

Flyboy

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3BitSaurus

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So it turns out at a recent investor's meeting someone asked about classic series Famicom Detective Club (which if you haven't played is very clearly an inspiration for Ace Attorney and the SNES fan translation for Girl In The Back is awesome) and Shigeru Miyamoto himself shouted out Professor Layton and Ace Attorney!

https://www.siliconera.com/2019/07/...te-questions-in-the-latest-investors-meeting/
That sounds really good! The link you sent is broken, though...
 
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