TAKE THAT! Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney smashes the prosecution!

[Deleted member]

I think Pheonix has better chances after Joker's reveal. I support!

 

[Tetrin]

We told you what he can do. You are conveniently forgetting all the moves that wouldn't make him a "generic brawler". e.g: evidence sorting, Magatama stage control, and even borrowing from Marvel or Project X Zone by using Maya in the moveset again.

And no...it isn't. That argument died in the first game when Jigglypuff heavily hurts you by falling asleep on you. And no that isn't even canon in Pokemon.

But they removed it sing as a damage dealing and instead made it just put you to sleep to make it more realistic. You're using an outdated source.

Also, I'm not conveniently forgetting anything; you've conveniently forgotten that I told you the moves that I saw in the video are pretty bland and are generic brawler moves apart from expressions which seem inherently boring in a fighting game that's a much larger scale like Smash. Evidence sorting I cannot see being implemented in any enjoyable way whatsoever, and Maya running in and falling is like a glorified version of Isabelle and Villager's dash attacks. I'd much prefer Phoenix just slip when he runs in his dash attack. I also think that his forward smash should be him pointing his finger out and yelling objection.

Are there not other important objects in the series?

 

[Wyoming]

Evidence sorting would work similarly to Pac-Man's, but being able to cancel it and make him hold onto it. Allowing him to present it when he wants. Just like the games.

I was on about Rest, not Sing

Magatama could be implemented. It actually visibly hurts people who he uses it on them, albeit it in a comedic way. But the way the locks work and break is super easy to put in Smash: 1 lock, 3 locks, 5 locks with different properties and uses. It would need to be presented on time to be effective (i.e: it is a timed move), like in the games.

Already Phoenix has two moves that don't use fists or anything a brawler would, by using the series' mechanics in play.

Go the Marvel route and have Maya assist him with moves that he can combo into. That would make him a tag-team of sorts but not really, since he's mostly on his own.

When he yells Objection or Take That the speech bubble could have a hitbox - referencing the sheer power they have for comedic effect in the games.

If you want more recent moves: Isabelle can hurt you with a party popper, a toy hammer and cheerleader pom poms. Duck Hunt's frisbee (pre-explosion) does damage and makes people flinch - even when it slows down. Wario's stage 1 Waft makes people trip. None of these would be "realistic" (asinine in a game like Smash to begin with)

 

[Tetrin]

Isabelle's arms are really dealing the damage, and a frisbee still makes sense as a projectile imo. The waft can scare people and that's why they trip.

Paper is just, well, paper. The party popper is very exaggerated, but it at least somewhat makes sense in that state. Paper would just be overly exaggerated. Evidence sorting I assume would be an up smash and I can see now how it'd work, but if you could, can you provide a more in depth explanation about the Magatama? Again, I don't know much about the series, so I don't really know what it's uses nor their functions in general. Sorry.

 

[GoodGrief741]

You say he'd be unique and yet you've borrowed a sizeable chunk of his moves from other characters in your own movesets, namely Mario, Captain Falcon, Falco, Little Mac, and Ryu. Him pointing would seem rushed if translated into Smash as a jab or just be too slow as a whole. Throwing the paper upwards seems impractical for a fighting game and would likely do insignificant amounts of damage, and I was mainly only impressed by his D-throw, recovery, and final smash. I thought that maybe if he'd scattered his papers on the ground, than others who near him would trip, but even then, it'd resemble Diddy's bananas and the tripping would seem a little since the papers go all over the place.

I know you said you'd made other movesets, and if you'd like cite them, feel free, but the one I saw only had a few interesting moves dwarfed by moves generally lackluster and rough-to-translate into Smash. I don't know much of anything about the Ace Attorney series, but don't lawyers use briefcases? Can't he use that as a weapon of some sort?


Um... no? His assistant coming in and tripping is like a glorified version of Isabelle and Villager's dash attacks. Uppercuts is something Ryu's already got covered, and most of his expressions are way too short range. That game has a much smaller stage to play on than Smash, and I didn't find any of his expressions really viable for a Smash translation. However, I must say that I was thoroughly impressed by objection, although it seems like it'd be easy to counter in Smash.

>Having another character pop up and trip is the same thing as the main character tripping.

No it isn’t, it looks different visually and would have a completely different effect gameplay wise. (As in the character and the hurtbox are in different places)

>Having a character trip is blatant copying Villager and Isabelle.

Then Isabelle isn’t unique because she has a move copied from Villager. And Villager isn’t unique because that same dash attack is used by Dedede. And Dedede isn’t unique because he has a dash attack and all of them serve more or less the same purpose.

>Uppercuts is something that Ryu has covered.

Lol what? Characters that came before Ryu that use uppercuts, off the top of my head: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Little Mac, Mega Man, Mii Brawler, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, probably everyone with fists. Uppercuts are a basic move in fighting games. No character is more or less unique for using those.

Tell me a character, any character, that satisfies your demands for uniqueness, and I’ll tell you how they are not. Because it seems that you didn’t really think your criteria through.

I suppose you're right about the borrowing moves thing, but not I just think Phoenix would make for a pretty generic brawler apart from a few wacky moves.

I know it doesn't have to make all too much sense, but a paper hitting you and even having the slightest effect on gameplay is unrealistic. I know it's a video game but I think this falls into the realm of "too unrealistic in an unrealistic game".

Also, doesn't he have like, lawyering books or something? Those are usually pretty hefty, and would seem more practical than slits of paper.

Paper hitting is too unrealistic? This is bloody Smash Bros nothing is realistic here.

To be honest, it sounds like you’re nitpicking really small details and not looking at the big picture at all. A character whose gimmick is finding evidence in the middle of a fight is a description that alone should sound unique to you.

 

[Deleted member]

>Having another character pop up and trip is the same thing as the main character tripping.

No it isn’t, it looks different visually and would have a completely different effect gameplay wise. (As in the character and the hurtbox are in different places)

>Having a character trip is blatant copying Villager and Isabelle.

Then Isabelle isn’t unique because she has a move copied from Villager. And Villager isn’t unique because that same dash attack is used by Dedede. And Dedede isn’t unique because he has a dash attack and all of them serve more or less the same purpose.

>Uppercuts is something that Ryu has covered.

Lol what? Characters that came before Ryu that use uppercuts, off the top of my head: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Little Mac, Mega Man, Mii Brawler, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, probably everyone with fists. Uppercuts are a basic move in fighting games. No character is more or less unique for using those.

Tell me a character, any character, that satisfies your demands for uniqueness, and I’ll tell you how they are not. Because it seems that you didn’t really think your criteria through.



Paper hitting is too unrealistic? This is bloody Smash Bros nothing is realistic here.

To be honest, it sounds like you’re nitpicking really small details and not looking at the big picture at all. A character whose gimmick is finding evidence in the middle of a fight is a description that alone should sound unique to you.

I haven't even played AA, but I know that PW has unique moveset potential and that Sakurai will make the most of it if he is in.

Also why the **** is the realistic "argument" being used when this is a video game and Super Smash Bros specifically. And Sakurai doesn't care about things being realistic in his game

 

[Tetrin]

>Having another character pop up and trip is the same thing as the main character tripping.

No it isn’t, it looks different visually and would have a completely different effect gameplay wise. (As in the character and the hurtbox are in different places)

>Having a character trip is blatant copying Villager and Isabelle.

Then Isabelle isn’t unique because she has a move copied from Villager. And Villager isn’t unique because that same dash attack is used by Dedede. And Dedede isn’t unique because he has a dash attack and all of them serve more or less the same purpose.

>Uppercuts is something that Ryu has covered.

Lol what? Characters that came before Ryu that use uppercuts, off the top of my head: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Little Mac, Mega Man, Mii Brawler, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, probably everyone with fists. Uppercuts are a basic move in fighting games. No character is more or less unique for using those.

Tell me a character, any character, that satisfies your demands for uniqueness, and I’ll tell you how they are not. Because it seems that you didn’t really think your criteria through.



Paper hitting is too unrealistic? This is bloody Smash Bros nothing is realistic here.

To be honest, it sounds like you’re nitpicking really small details and not looking at the big picture at all. A character whose gimmick is finding evidence in the middle of a fight is a description that alone should sound unique to you.

A visual difference doesn't matter if it's effectively the same. It'd be almost unfair imo if his assistant came in and tripped but he could still move around. The hitboxes are very obviously different, but even if Phoenix couldn't move around for the sake of fairness, he'd be wide open to attack. Plus, having him dash and suddenly stop to have someone else dash is awkward imo.

Exactly, so we would copy this same thing again? I know there's only so varied you can get with the controls, but it's best imo to avoid copying, ESPECIALLY from two characters from different series, as much as possible.

For the uppercut, you're adding characters for the sake of adding them. Mario, Luigi, and Dr. Mario all have super similar movesets and on top of that similar stature (stature-wise, I'd even say the Mii Brawler is akin to Luigi), so it's only fair natural to share the uppercut, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are notoriously similar (especially since Ganondorf was originally a clone of Falcon).

I'd love for you to say how Geno, Porky, and Neku wouldn't bring unique movesets to the table.

There is still a line for things being unrealistic. Most things in Smash are largely dramatized but can still be seen as dangerous, but paper is not one of those things.

I'd already admitted the evidence is a fair point to Wyoming, and I can assure you I'm not nitpicking whatsoever. The list of unique and interesting moves Phoenix brings to the table caps out at around 5 for me, and I'm even encouraging you all to convince me otherwise. I want to be convinced. Expressions are too limited and are best saved for taunts imo, too.

 

[Deleted member]

A visual difference doesn't matter if it's effectively the same. It'd be almost unfair imo if his assistant came in and tripped but he could still move around. The hitboxes are very obviously different, but even if Phoenix couldn't move around for the sake of fairness, he'd be wide open to attack. Plus, having him dash and suddenly stop to have someone else dash is awkward imo.

Exactly, so we would copy this same thing again? I know there's only so varied you can get with the controls, but it's best imo to avoid copying, ESPECIALLY from two characters from different series, as much as possible.

For the uppercut, you're adding characters for the sake of adding them. Mario, Luigi, and Dr. Mario all have super similar movesets and on top of that similar stature (stature-wise, I'd even say the Mii Brawler is akin to Luigi), so it's only fair natural to share the uppercut, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are notoriously similar (especially since Ganondorf was originally a clone of Falcon).

I'd love for you to say how Geno, Porky, and Neku wouldn't bring unique movesets to the table.

There is still a line for things being unrealistic. Most things in Smash are largely dramatized but can still be seen as dangerous, but paper is not one of those things.

I'd already admitted the evidence is a fair point to Wyoming, and I can assure you I'm not nitpicking whatsoever. The list of unique and interesting moves Phoenix brings to the table caps out at around 5 for me, and I'm even encouraging you all to convince me otherwise. I want to be convinced. Expressions are too limited and are best saved for taunts imo, too.

Pheonix Wright has unique moveset potential, as been explained in this thread before. He is literally a lawyer. A highly requested one to be in Smash.

Sakurai can make Phoenix attack with paper and make him stay true to his character. Doesn't feel like a way to fight to you? That is the variety and wackiness that Super Smash Bros provides. It seems unrealistic, but this is a video game. Things are always unrealistic in video games

 

[Wyoming]

A visual difference doesn't matter if it's effectively the same. It'd be almost unfair imo if his assistant came in and tripped but he could still move around. The hitboxes are very obviously different, but even if Phoenix couldn't move around for the sake of fairness, he'd be wide open to attack. Plus, having him dash and suddenly stop to have someone else dash is awkward imo.

Exactly, so we would copy this same thing again? I know there's only so varied you can get with the controls, but it's best imo to avoid copying, ESPECIALLY from two characters from different series, as much as possible.

For the uppercut, you're adding characters for the sake of adding them. Mario, Luigi, and Dr. Mario all have super similar movesets and on top of that similar stature (stature-wise, I'd even say the Mii Brawler is akin to Luigi), so it's only fair natural to share the uppercut, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are notoriously similar (especially since Ganondorf was originally a clone of Falcon).

I'd love for you to say how Geno, Porky, and Neku wouldn't bring unique movesets to the table.

There is still a line for things being unrealistic. Most things in Smash are largely dramatized but can still be seen as dangerous, but paper is not one of those things.

I'd already admitted the evidence is a fair point to Wyoming, and I can assure you I'm not nitpicking whatsoever. The list of unique and interesting moves Phoenix brings to the table caps out at around 5 for me, and I'm even encouraging you all to convince me otherwise. I want to be convinced. Expressions are too limited and are best saved for taunts imo, too.

If paper can hurt super heroes and super villains, it can harm characters in Smash. End of that nonsensical argument. Remember the Fan? It was made of paper. It still could hurt.

"But it was rapidly used!" - yeah do that with your own paper fan and see how much it harms you.
if it bothers you so much he can swing them out of a briefcase. The force will do the trick.

We cannot convince you otherwise. You do not see the appeal that is fine. I do not see the appeal of irrelevant puppet man myself. Your arguments are farcical at best and nothing will change. Phoenix would play like no one else based on our movesets. Sharing similarities for basic attacks means nowt. He was deemed unique enough to be in two different fighters. If they can cook something up, so can Sakurai.

If you want to make his aerials unique: he could strike four of his recognizable poses in mid-air - each with a disjointed hitbox that is on his arm.
"That should be taunts!" - yeah well his poses actually tend to express when he's on the attack. Again faithful to the source material, whilst being unique.

Anyway I am done with this one. It's going nowhere.

Anyone looking forward to the Dahlia Chronicles being covered next month?

 

[Deleted member]

If paper can hurt super heroes and super villains, it can harm characters in Smash. End of that nonsensical argument. Remember the Fan? It was made of paper. It still could hurt.

"But it was rapidly used!" - yeah do that with your own paper fan and see how much it harms you.
if it bothers you so much he can swing them out of a briefcase. The force will do the trick.

We cannot convince you otherwise. You do not see the appeal that is fine. I do not see the appeal of irrelevant puppet man myself. Your arguments are farcical at best and nothing will change. Phoenix would play like no one else based on our movesets. Sharing similarities for basic attacks means nowt. He was deemed unique enough to be in two different fighters. If they can cook something up, so can Sakurai.

If you want to make his aerials unique: he could strike four of his recognizable poses in mid-air - each with a disjointed hitbox that is on his arm.
"That should be taunts!" - yeah well his poses actually tend to express when he's on the attack. Again faithful to the source material, whilst being unique.

Anyway I am done with this one. It's going nowhere.

Anyone looking forward to the Dahlia Chronicles being covered next month?

What is Dahlia Chronicles?

 

[Tetrin]

If paper can hurt super heroes and super villains, it can harm characters in Smash. End of that nonsensical argument. Remember the Fan? It was made of paper. It still could hurt.

"But it was rapidly used!" - yeah do that with your own paper fan and see how much it harms you.

Also no it's not Isabelle's "fists" (she doesn't even have any) that does the damage while she uses pom-poms.

We cannot convince you otherwise. You do not see the appeal that is fine. I do not see the appeal of irrelevant puppet man myself. Your arguments are farcical at best and nothing will change. Phoenix would play like no one else based on our movesets. Sharing similarities for basic attacks means nowt. He was deemed unique enough to be in two different fighters. If they can cook something up, so can Sakurai.

If you want to make his aerials unique: he could strike four of his recognizable poses in mid-air - each with a disjointed hitbox that is on his arm.
"That should be taunts!" - yeah well his poses actually tend to express when he's on the attack. Again faithful to the source material, whilst being unique.

But honestly it seems like you barged in here just to cause a fuss.

Farcical is certainly a stretch, and I'm not here to stir up anything. I've taken a shower and actually thought over my arguments. I think an up tilt instead of throwing a paper, he could throw multiple at once, which I think would be more feasible.

And to be fair with a paper fan irl, you'd probably get a paper cut. For Isabelle, I guess I can somewhat see where you're coming from, but I'll admit it's likely bias on my behalf since I tend to favor visual interpretations instead of just reading it.

You've cornered me with the aerials. I won't dispute those since no one else actually strikes a pose in midair and calls it an attack.

I've been largely convinced of Phoenix's potential, except I still think that his dash attack shouldn't involve his assistant. He'd either be able to move, which I'd say can be an unfair advantage in situations where the opposite player is near the edge of the stage, or he would remain completely static, which would leave him wide open to attack.

 

[Wyoming]

What is Dahlia Chronicles?

What I personally call the upcoming episodes regarding her arc in Trials and Tribulations. They're taking a break due to special programming, but it will kick off mid-January!

 

[Deleted member]

What I personally call the upcoming episodes regarding her arc in Trials and Tribulations. They're taking a break due to special programming, but it will kick off mid-January!

That is interesting. I look forward to it being covered!

 

[GoodGrief741]

A visual difference doesn't matter if it's effectively the same. It'd be almost unfair imo if his assistant came in and tripped but he could still move around. The hitboxes are very obviously different, but even if Phoenix couldn't move around for the sake of fairness, he'd be wide open to attack. Plus, having him dash and suddenly stop to have someone else dash is awkward imo.

Exactly, so we would copy this same thing again? I know there's only so varied you can get with the controls, but it's best imo to avoid copying, ESPECIALLY from two characters from different series, as much as possible.

For the uppercut, you're adding characters for the sake of adding them. Mario, Luigi, and Dr. Mario all have super similar movesets and on top of that similar stature (stature-wise, I'd even say the Mii Brawler is akin to Luigi), so it's only fair natural to share the uppercut, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are notoriously similar (especially since Ganondorf was originally a clone of Falcon).

I'd love for you to say how Geno, Porky, and Neku wouldn't bring unique movesets to the table.

There is still a line for things being unrealistic. Most things in Smash are largely dramatized but can still be seen as dangerous, but paper is not one of those things.

I'd already admitted the evidence is a fair point to Wyoming, and I can assure you I'm not nitpicking whatsoever. The list of unique and interesting moves Phoenix brings to the table caps out at around 5 for me, and I'm even encouraging you all to convince me otherwise. I want to be convinced. Expressions are too limited and are best saved for taunts imo, too.

The question was directed at what characters in the game you say are unique, since it’s a fact that every character has at least one move that acts similarly to another character’s, but hey, I’ll bite.

Geno could be very similar to Mega Man, Samus and Mii Gunner, Porky a slightly bigger Bowser Jr. with maybe Ridley’s Down B, and Neku a Robin/Zelda style magic fighter. You can’t prove I’m wrong.

>A visual difference doesn’t matter if it’s effectively the same.
>Hitboxes are very obviously different.

Two sentences apart mate. I don’t know how quick your showers are but I don’t think you’ve even proofread, let alone thought it through.

You don’t appear to figure out how it would work, let me give you a few alternatives.

A) Phoenix stops dead in his tracks while Maya falls over. This leaves him very vulnerable, so for balance the move has crazy launching power if it hits (replace that with anything that could balance it out if you please, be it superarmor or meteor or a big hurtbox or whatever)

B) Phoenix continues sliding as Maya falls, he can’t attack but keeps momentum.

C) It just isn’t a dash, but a Smash attack. That should fulfill your weirdly specific criteria for uniqueness, given nobody has a Smash where somebody else falls over.

D) It’s just one move in a fan made moveset, it’s not representative of what the final product would be.

The thing is, people accuse you of nitpicking because you take issue with the tiniest things in specific moves rather than looking at the big picture. Fanmade movesets are nothing but a proof of concept, and a moveset being unique isn’t something that stems from the sum of a bunch of unique moves; a unique moveset is more than the sum of its parts, it’s the character’s abilities working in tandem and frame data and animations and hitboxes and a ton of other things.

Let’s look at Cloud, for example. He’s a very unique fighter, doesn’t really feel derivative, right? But his neutral B is a projectile, his side B, up B and Final Smash might as well be taken from a Fire Emblem character and his down B is just Little Mac’s KO meter. Yet all those things working in tandem feel different, and they don’t feel like anything but Cloud.

 

[Tetrin]

The question was directed at what characters in the game you say are unique, since it’s a fact that every character has at least one move that acts similarly to another character’s, but hey, I’ll bite.

Geno could be very similar to Mega Man, Samus and Mii Gunner, Porky a slightly bigger Bowser Jr. with maybe Ridley’s Down B, and Neku a Robin/Zelda style magic fighter. You can’t prove I’m wrong.

>A visual difference doesn’t matter if it’s effectively the same.
>Hitboxes are very obviously different.

Two sentences apart mate. I don’t know how quick your showers are but I don’t think you’ve even proofread, let alone thought it through.

You don’t appear to figure out how it would work, let me give you a few alternatives.

A) Phoenix stops dead in his tracks while Maya falls over. This leaves him very vulnerable, so for balance the move has crazy launching power if it hits (replace that with anything that could balance it out if you please, be it superarmor or meteor or a big hurtbox or whatever)

B) Phoenix continues sliding as Maya falls, he can’t attack but keeps momentum.

C) It just isn’t a dash, but a Smash attack. That should fulfill your weirdly specific criteria for uniqueness, given nobody has a Smash where somebody else falls over.

D) It’s just one move in a fan made moveset, it’s not representative of what the final product would be.

The thing is, people accuse you of nitpicking because you take issue with the tiniest things in specific moves rather than looking at the big picture. Fanmade movesets are nothing but a proof of concept, and a moveset being unique isn’t something that stems from the sum of a bunch of unique moves; a unique moveset is more than the sum of its parts, it’s the character’s abilities working in tandem and frame data and animations and hitboxes and a ton of other things.

Let’s look at Cloud, for example. He’s a very unique fighter, doesn’t really feel derivative, right? But his neutral B is a projectile, his side B, up B and Final Smash might as well be taken from a Fire Emblem character and his down B is just Little Mac’s KO meter. Yet all those things working in tandem feel different, and they don’t feel like anything but Cloud.

For your first point, I get where you're coming from, and I'll clarify what I meant by that. By "effectively the same" I meant running and having something drop, in this case, an entire person. You could argue that many moves are "effectively the same", but this is much more specific than other moves. Anyway, his assistant entering the playing field would mean the introduction of an entirely new hitbox I might add since his assistant is disjoint (obviously), but it still boils down to Isabelle and Villager's, just a different hitbox doing it. Letting him move with his dash attack is impractical due to fairness, and keeping him still is unfair. Besides, I even said I'd prefer he just slip as his dash attack. Much simpler and equally unique to the franchise.

And for your points A through D:

A) And if it misses, which it probably would have the time given the animation it'd take for his assistant to even enter in the first place? In the Marvel vs Capcom, the only reason it worked is because you had less places to move around. To me, it's not the best alternative just because of how many drawbacks it had.

B) By sliding, I'll assume you either mean running or falling with Maya. If the former, he's even more open to attack than the option before, and if the latter, I'd think the animation would be weird seeing them both on the ground next to each other, but perhaps not; I'd need to see it in person.

C) I think a better forward Smash would just be him doing his iconic finger pointing pose. I think it'd better suit the comedic feel of the series, especially considering how silly that smash attack would be. I thought he might also yell out "Objection!", but that's probably best saved for a counter move. Looking back on it now, perhaps it could even be a neutral b, and Phoenix would just escape halfway.

D) The one move wasn't my only issue initially.

I'd hardly say smash and special attacks constitute the "tiniest things in specific moves". I'm not complaining about neutral air or anything like that, I just couldn't fathom how a moderately exaggerated lawyer would make for an interesting fighter. I've been largely convinced, like I've said before, and although I can now recognize his potential as a fighter, I guess his charm just doesn't sway me the same way it did you guys. Also, I'd argue that a moveset being unique, by its very nature, is comprised mainly of various unique moves. Frame data and hitboxes should be accounted for, I agree on that, but not so much as to overstep the bounds of wholly original moves, and nuanced animation wouldn't change what's basically an identical move.

I could argue against all your points about the characters, but it's 1 in the morning and not at all related to the thread.

 

[Curious Villager]

>Paper doesn't hurt.

Ever heard of paper cuts?

Also we have characters pelting each other with things like vegetables and peanuts and launching each other ten miles away with them, pretty sure realism is one of the last things Smash concerns itself with...

 

[Flyboy]

Man, maybe people just want to see a character they like in a fighting game they like.

Also, personally, MvC3 isn't enough for me because while that's an awesome representation of classic trilogy Phoenix I am begging for some new trilogy rep as well featuring Apollo, Athena, and Trucy. Stuff like the Perceive System, the Mood Matrix, and various magic tricks would be a great fun way to supplement his moveset.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

In the latest news, you remember Tansut? The one guy who managed to leak Cloud back in the day? Well, he's apparently certain that the 5chan leak is correct about DQ and Erdrick getting in.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...ultimate-destiny.84900/page-365#post-16411936

This is pretty good, because if Erdrick, and by extension Dragon Quest gets in, the case for Phoenix Wright getting in becomes all the more stronger.

Those wondering why, please feel free to ask.

 

[Wyoming]

I'll bite. Why is that? Jovahexeon Joranvexeon

 

[Luigifan18]

Fire Emblem reference?

Yep.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Has anyone, at any point, said OBJECTION! and TAKE THAT! during the arguments in here?

Apart from that, Phoenix not getting in because he's not realistic enough is the silliest argument I've heard of around this forum.

People, one of the reasons why James Bond was not picked was because he was too realistic, and had to be toned down to be a little less realistic.

Man, maybe people just want to see a character they like in a fighting game they like.

Also, personally, MvC3 isn't enough for me because while that's an awesome representation of classic trilogy Phoenix I am begging for some new trilogy rep as well featuring Apollo, Athena, and Trucy. Stuff like the Perceive System, the Mood Matrix, and various magic tricks would be a great fun way to supplement his moveset.

Given that, making it in Smash later rather than sooner may be a good thing.

 

[GoodGrief741]

In the latest news, you remember Tansut? The one guy who managed to leak Cloud back in the day? Well, he's apparently certain that the 5chan leak is correct about DQ and Erdrick getting in.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...ultimate-destiny.84900/page-365#post-16411936

This is pretty good, because if Erdrick, and by extension Dragon Quest gets in, the case for Phoenix Wright getting in becomes all the more stronger.

Those wondering why, please feel free to ask.

I also wanna know.

 

[Flyboy]

In the latest news, you remember Tansut? The one guy who managed to leak Cloud back in the day? Well, he's apparently certain that the 5chan leak is correct about DQ and Erdrick getting in.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...ultimate-destiny.84900/page-365#post-16411936

This is pretty good, because if Erdrick, and by extension Dragon Quest gets in, the case for Phoenix Wright getting in becomes all the more stronger.

Those wondering why, please feel free to ask.

I'm asking. You got me.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

In the latest news, you remember Tansut? The one guy who managed to leak Cloud back in the day? Well, he's apparently certain that the 5chan leak is correct about DQ and Erdrick getting in.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...ultimate-destiny.84900/page-365#post-16411936

This is pretty good, because if Erdrick, and by extension Dragon Quest gets in, the case for Phoenix Wright getting in becomes all the more stronger.

Those wondering why, please feel free to ask.

Please enlighten me.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

I'll bite. Why is that? Jovahexeon Joranvexeon

Please enlighten me.

I'm asking. You got me.

I also wanna know.

Well, I'm glad you asked! Now remember everyone, none of this is absolutely confirmed, but it's keen detective work nonetheless.

Now, if you'll recall, Reggie did say that Joker would be emblematic of the DLC. Now, all joking of PR aside, Joker from Persona 5, Dragon Quest and Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney, are all beginning to share noticeable similarities regarding Smash and Sakurai.

Let's start off with this point:

All 3 series had something going on 2015-2016, during which the DLC. Persona 5 making the splash it was with its release in 2016, DQ11 in notable development at the time to the point where they'd confirmed that Switch (at the time known as the NX) would get the game, and Ace Attorney had Spirit of Justice during that time, as well as DGS.

Now, alone that seems like a coincidence, but let's factor this in: In the same year, Sakurai had a column for each of these series, heck some of the specific games as well! He praised Persona 5, he gave a column to Dragon Quest, and even Ace Attorney has been confirmed to have Sakurai as a fan.

So, we know he's a big fan of each of these series. And let's bring up that tweet Sakurai made about the procedure for this DLC:

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made entirely by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan.

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) November 6, 2018

That's right. While Nintendo choose the original list, Sakurai is still the one making the selections. Series that he's a fan of, have that keen boost. Of course, that's not the evidence all on its own.

Some may think, "But isn't this too obvious?". Not to the typical Smash goer. See, alot of what these guys have in relation is talked about way back in 2016, which not everyone except nuts like us may pay mind to, and even then, it's only after Joker's reveal that more zany picks like Phoenix seem this plausible!

Now, let's zero in some more on Sakurai's actions during 2016 when negotiations for DLC was underway. IN favor of the Erdrick's rising chances, Sakurai on record, had gone to visit the offices of Dragon Quest in 2016. In fact, Sakurai was there at the interview where Yuji Horii confirmed the Switch would be getting DQ11. And for Erdrick himself, well, Dragon Quest 3 is Sakurai's favorite DQ game:

Q39: Which entries in the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series do you like?


Sakurai: Final Fantasy 3, and Dragon Quest 3. I remember those days.

And well, needless to say, Saks has been over there a few times. He's got a nice budding relationship with the DQ team apparently. Something similar to what was recently revealed when he visited Atlus buildings for an interview not too long ago from now.

Now, in relation to Ace Attorney? Well......

As you probably know, Sakurai has been confirmed to have met with Takumi during that same year. Now, whether or not Takumi would know if Phoenix is in, given Takumi's currently unknown position in current Ace Attorney productions, Sakurai would likely want to meet the original creator and get some tips or whatnot. Now, if they were regarded as usual pals, this photo would probably not mean as much, but they definitely don't awfully mingle a lot. Hence why this photo has been getting a lot of attention this year regarding Smash.

Case in point though. as the Judge said in Turnabout Goodbyes:

two coincidences at the same time seems more like a "pattern" to me.

To recap, on its own, Joker's reveal merely helps Phoenix's chances, but as we've established now, there's more relatable to these franchises and their characters in general. All of them have stuff coming out this year, and if Persona 5's rumored Switch port is true, all of them will be stuff that would benefit Nintendo enough to have them on the list.

And each character is certainly big enough for the excitement factor.

Now, to bring things to a close, there are some more minor things that may be more grasping, but are things to consider.

Now, DLC is on a budget, and while I don't think it alone decides the characters, the VAs that come with them may make things easier or whatnot monetarily. Especially if per say, they're VAs already within the project.

Joker of course has Xander Mobus already on board. And with Ace Attorney.....Abby Trott is in there already. While Ace Attorney in Japan surprisingly doesn't really have consistent VAs so Abby's presence here is more notable. Again, this part is like more of a cherry than the cake of evidence, but, if they were planning to have Maya in some way alongside Phoenix, having Abby already affiliated could help them in the budget, Just some food for thought.

Not sure if I'm forgetting anything, but bottomline. If Erdrick gets in. Notice that we may have something of a pattern here, and a pretty sweet one at that.

And while Hitagi isn't the most sturdy of leakers looking right now, Phoenix Wright was suspiciously one of the few characters he didn't disconfirm when asked about.

Oh, and if all the DLC fighters are ones that HAVE NOT been represented in Smash before in any way, spirits included......welp.

Heh, sorry that took a while to construct.

 

[Wyoming]

Well written piece. I have a feeling the meeting is being played up too much by us. It was a long time ago so I doubt it was DLC negotiations. It does show Sakurai likes Takumi, and that with Kamiya (I didn't get the source for him talking AA btw) also greatly respecting him that may bode well. Time will tell.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Say, didn't Capcom say to the effect of "it'll be a big year for AA fans" sometime ago?

What if early Smash planning has been a part of that all along?

Though it's a bit early to assume it'll be nothing but third parties, since the evidence you gathered seems to count to merely three so far. The last two spots are likely to be first parties, if Nintendo still wants any cut of the profit at all.

Also, this comic could be funnier in hindsight:

Spoiler

Well written piece. I have a feeling the meeting is being played up too much by us. It was a long time ago so I doubt it was DLC negotiations. It does show Sakurai likes Takumi, and that with Kamiya (I didn't get the source for him talking AA btw) also greatly respecting him that may bode well. Time will tell.

Yeah, remember the time Sakurai met a Wayforward person at E3? This kind of occurrence may not necessarily bear fruit.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Imagine how Kamiya would feel if he was the only guy who met with Sakurai and didn’t get a character in.

Though I guess Bayonetta is his character, and Leon could end up getting in (though I doubt it)

 

[Wyoming]

Kamiya actually did create Bayonetta, so that isn't true.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

It was a long time ago so I doubt it was DLC negotiations.

Actually remember. We do know that DLC talks were in the works as early as 2016.
I don't tout the meeting between Takumi and Sakurai as gospel (yet), but the year it happened, does help.

 

[Wyoming]

Was it? Or is that outdated now?

Also where's the tweeeeet

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

Also where's the tweeeeet

Which tweet? The one I posted earlier?

Was it? Or is that outdated now?

Not really. Keep in mind, "negotiations" doesn't even mean that they'd made their decisions completely yet. If anything it could've been just getting it so that the characters could go on the list for Sakurai to choose. We don't know exactly when they finished working on DLC as opposed to when Sakurai annouced it at the November direct and on twitter.

 

[Wyoming]

Which tweet? The one I posted earlier?
Not really. Keep in mind, "negotiations" doesn't even mean that they'd made their decisions completely yet. If anything it could've been just getting it so that the characters could go on the list for Sakurai to choose. We don't know exactly when they finished working on DLC as opposed to when Sakurai annouced it at the November direct and on twitter.

The Kamiya tweet in regards to talking to Takumi about Smash.
I want to see the context and what was said by Hideki.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

The Kamiya tweet in regards to talking to Takumi about Smash.
I want to see the context and what was said by Hideki.

Oh, the tweet. I don't have it. Someone else posted it in a different thread and I didn't keep track of it. I remember what was said, as we mentioned that in the previous page, but in terms of the link to the tweet, well, it's Hideki Kamiya and it was one of his tweets in Japanese.

 

[Flyboy]

The Kamiya tweet in regards to talking to Takumi about Smash.
I want to see the context and what was said by Hideki.

Oh, the tweet. I don't have it. Someone else posted it in a different thread and I didn't keep track of it. I remember what was said, as we mentioned that in the previous page, but in terms of the link to the tweet, well, it's Hideki Kamiya and it was one of his tweets in Japanese.

Here you go.

 

[Wyoming]

Here you go.

If we take that at face value, it's not looking good for Phoenix at all if you ask me. That makes the aforementioned meeting moot.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Like I said earlier. For all we know, Phoenix may simply be getting some spirits, or something.

That said, boy is P.Kat going to be happy.

 

[Caladuz]

And while Hitagi isn't the most sturdy of leakers looking right now, Phoenix Wright was suspiciously one of the few characters he didn't disconfirm when asked about.

Excellent post, learned a lot. One thing though, Hitagi said something along the lines of not hearing anything about the Capcom rep and thinks Dante is more likely. So that looks like a nothing-burger

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

Here you go.

Ah, there it is, good find.
Wyoming

ちなみに昨日飲んでる時タクシュウが「なんでナルホド君出さないんだ」てゆーてた…

— 無職? 神谷英樹 Unemployed? Hideki Kamiya (@HidekiKamiya_X) December 18, 2018

Apparently, it roughly translates out to Shu Takumi and Kamiya out drinking. And "Takshu" apparently asked him why he doesn't put Phoenix out.

If we take that at face value, it's not looking good for Phoenix at all if you ask me. That makes the aforementioned meeting moot.

Thankfully that's not the case.
I checked Kamiya's page himself. And the translator was mistaken. This is actually the tweet that comes before the one involving "Takshu":

以後お見知りおきを… RT @RoahCongrazica これは大変失礼いたしました…。ゲーム「ズ」ですね、心得ました。加えて最新情報のリンクまで貼っていただきありがとうございます。

— 無職? 神谷英樹 Unemployed? Hideki Kamiya (@HidekiKamiya_X) December 18, 2018

And as I suspected, it has nothing to do with Smash. There's nothing linking the quote to Smash. You can even check the page yourself here: https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya

See, I've found something that wasn't mentioned in that post:

Blocked.https://t.co/y85nXLNBoS
RT @DagSmash: このような決定に影響を与えることは可能でしょうか？

Google翻訳は楽しいです。

— 無職? 神谷英樹 Unemployed? Hideki Kamiya (@HidekiKamiya_X) December 18, 2018

Kamiya said that in response to questions about Smash. Even if that quote is about Smash, which it likely isn't, Kamiya wouldn't know about that, and that would contradict him supposedly hearing of such, Smash news from Takumi.

Long story short Wyoming , a little bit of clarification, shows that this talk with a potentially drunk Takumi means jack squat regarding Phoenix's chances.

And like I said, Takumi himself might not even know if Phoenix is in or not, as mentioned in my post from earlier today.

Excellent post, learned a lot. One thing though, Hitagi said something along the lines of not hearing anything about the Capcom rep and thinks Dante is more likely. So that looks like a nothing-burger

Dante got disconfirmed a while ago. Well not too long ago, but in October, Matt Walker, producer of the DMC series made a statement that would've violated NDAs for Dante.

 

[Flyboy]

Look, there's nothing wrong with being hopeful, but you have to remember to be realistic too. This could mean everything, this could mean nothing. I'm going to err on the side of not expecting it and considering him deconfirmed. After all, last time that happened, Joker was revealed, so maybe the miracle will happen.

Seriously though. We are at a state where nothing lines up and we shouldn't drive ourselves crazy trying to find connections that may not even exist.