Guide Taj's Character Match-Up Discussion

[DarkDragoon]

And that is when you scare the Falco with Shadow Balls or NAirs or even fake out and just jump out and warp back.

Once Falco is over the ledge his only options are get back or die, so Mewtwo is FINALLY at an advantage there, so its pretty freeform.
-DD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Point taken.

 

[DarkDragoon]

So if no one has any more Falco hub-ubs...

>_> How does one handle Jiggs? I mean, I know WoP isn't a big deal with that whole "DI away and jump/Teleport around it" thing...but how can you really deal with Jiggs offensively?

o_o I wanna play Darc at the next tournament, so I figured I would ask.
-DD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Ha... I wish I could tell you. I'm still working on the Jigglypuff matchups with my mains. I dunno, I figure space and try to get in where Jigglypuff isn't attacking. Try to shieldgrab the pound... I dunno.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Ha... I wish I could tell you. I'm still working on the Jigglypuff matchups with my mains. I dunno, I figure space and try to get in where Jigglypuff isn't attacking. Try to shieldgrab the pound... I dunno.

>_> Well, watching Darc, there isn't much time when Jiggs isn't attacking, since she just floats back and forth with various aerials going in every direction.

iirc, Jigg's Magic number is near ~100% on FD...so I guess if you sneak in some NAirs and follow them with FAirs to rack up damage, you're all set. Keep the pressure using shadow balls so Jiggs can't sit pretty...and use UTilts and stuff when Jigg's gets close?

<_< Sound good?
xD
-DD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You can't ALWAYS be attacking with Jiggs...

But the rest sounds good.

 

[DarkDragoon]

You can't ALWAYS be attacking with Jiggs...

But the rest sounds good.

>_> When you LCancel her aerials and hop right after and continue to BAir/Fair/NAir what-have-you, the time between attacking and not attacking it probably not enough for Mewtwo to get anything substantial in.

That's all I meant by it.
-DD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Okay, I can agree to that.

 

[Taj278]

FALCO

Falco's magic number is not 159% at the start of the throw on FD; it is 172% with perfect DI.

OFFENSE

Falco is a dirty bird. Powershield > Wavedash > Down Tilt/Grab is the best way to get through SHL on any stage. I usually just teleport into Falco with my shield up and invade his SHL space, the space where he can SHL comfortably while standing still, and follow him if he tries to retreat his SHL or read for a SHFFL cross up from Falco by doing a quick pivot shield reading for shield grab or a quick retreat.

It's also good to do a forward baby shadow ball at Falco when you know he's going to retreat SHL, then follow that up with your wavedash down tilt or grab.

COMBOS

The most consistent combo I've found on Falco on FD for the left or right DIed up throw is grab > up throw > Full hop but you DJC your forward air near the apex of the jump so you fall with the forward air > JC grab either direction he decides to DI > up throw > forward air to up air or to confusion for an extended tech chase.

If the Falco doesn't DI your up throw at 0-6% straight left or right, then the usual double forward airs to whatever **** combo you want works pretty well. The only hard part is if they don't DI the throw but they DI the forward air behind you, so you just have to know before hand to throw your forward air while floating backwards to continue the combo.

I have some good footage of what I'm talking about in Shadow Claw 3.

DEFENSE

Disable out of shield works pretty well if they try to do a jab/tilt approach to you, as well as shadow balls and well timed SH neutral airs. Teleport out of shield and wavedash out of shield to avoid the SHL rush down pressure, light shield/wavedash/jump and retreat to the edge to refresh your shield and to even bait the Falco in to approaching you. If the Falco bites and invades your space by the ledge, you can easily turn the tables with a simple ledge hop teleport and move back into him with your shield up and Falco no longer has much space, so his options become panic SHFFL aerial or grab, and you can compensate for both of those with good spacing.

Falco’s SHFFL N-air > Shine > grab/Shine are probably the main things that will throw you off from good Falcos. You have to be ready to retreat/shield grab if you know it is coming. Sometimes you’ll be forced to play a high and floaty game above Falco until you figure out their ground game, and falling neutral airs to tech chases may be all you have.

EDGEGUARDS

If up throw won't kill or combo, just don't do it. If your back is to the stage, down throw. If your back is to the edge, back throw. Down Smash is a perfectly fine edgeguard against Falco's Forward B if you have an ounce of timing, because it isn't laggy either. Down tilt can be ok, but usually at higher percentages, not lower. I’d use down tilt to combo into a KOing Forward air, down air, or forward tilt. Also, it just doesn’t feel as potent of an attack as Down Smash for hitting people under the stage since the attack isn’t disjointed.

When you're edge guarding Falco, just think what would Marth do? Then you do it. Take the ledge, force the high forward B, if they don't then they have to Up B and then you just back air them away. If they up B higher, go for the back air anyway and chase them far enough that you can barely recover with teleport and Falco shouldn't be able to make it back with his Up B. You want to control as many options as you can, so when Falco is trying to recover, throw Shadow balls where Falco has to B to drop him a little lower, force him to Forward B sweet spot and punish it by down smash or taking his Cookies, Ultra Ninja style.

OVERALL
To beat Falco you have to fight and fight to get Falco on his back then you cling on to him like fly on ****. Keep tech chasing him, tracking him down with your shadow ball wave dashes, keep throwing him off the stage and threatening his recovery. Falco can't really kill Mewtwo easily; he can just build damage until about 130-140% where you start dying from sweet spotted aerials. Forward Smash and down airs might kill you earlier, but those things are avoidable. If you can break into Falco's rhythm and keep him from controlling you with laser spam and spaced tilts/aerials, then you'll win the match.

 

[DarkDragoon]

:o Good to know.

Thanks a lot Taj!

*waits patiently for Jiggz verdict*

...
*waits even more patiently for Shadow Claw 3*
-DD

 

[Taj278]

JIGGLYPUFF

This is a very slow match. It largely depends on the player’s style and ability to read you. If you’re predictable, you’ll lose. If the Jiggs has a recognizable pattern, you can exploit it and nickel and dime your way to a *96%* up throw on FD or a juicy forward air.

OFFENSE

Hopped Shadow Balls, Wavedash between Jiggs’ landing aerials and grab when you can and neutral air when you can’t. Use your back air to challenge Jiggs when she’s off the stage. Forward airs are tough to land, but it is doable when they make the mistake of using poorly spaced aerials. Overall, the bulk of your damage will come from just dancing around and waiting. Throwing shadow balls between Jiggs aerials, good neutral airs, and good grabs. NEVER telegraph your grabs, your grabs HAVE to be handed to you. If you telegraph your grab, it will get crouched and you may get rested or smashed.

So use your Dash Dance, your wavedashes out of and into shield, good pivots, and earn your grabs by capitalizing on mistakes. You can’t grab a good Jiggs with a linear approach, it almost always has to be by punishes or surprise. It’s ok if you don’t get your grab or KO until Jiggs at 150%, if you play just as well or better Jiggs has to wait until 150%+ to kill you with a back air as well. Both characters have trouble racking up damage and killing each other.

Early on the universal floaty combo should work for you if it isn’t crouch canceled. Down tilt > forward air > up air. Then down tilt > neutral air and sometimes back airs.

When Jiggs gives you space, charge your shadow ball. Full charged Shadow Balls can be early KOs or your bigger damage dealer when dealing with Jiggs’ SHFFL game. Eventually it will force Jiggs to be more aggressive as well, which means more neutral airs for you, more grab opportunities, and you can be even more annoying and evasive.

DEFENSE

Retreating Shadow Balls away from the Wall of Pain, SH Teleports are very difficult to punish unless Jiggs straight calls them or you do it prematurely, so you can use it to get away all the time. You’re a big target for Jiggs though, so you may have to direct your shield high against Jiggs, but Jiggs doesn’t really have much else. Her aerials are tough to get around, but that’s just how Jiggs fights, so you keep moving, getting your chip damage, move inside until you can get your neutral airs, call Jiggs’ retreats and land your forward airs, up tilt from underneath, and if you need to recharge your shield run to the edge.

Jiggs can’t edgeguard you very well, but if she does just slowly assess how Jiggs is moving toward you and you might even be able to get some free damage if you attack using your second jump. Jiggs just can’t really edge guard M2 that well if you have your second jump, and even if you don’t, Jiggs rarely knocks you away at such a low angle that you can’t just float back and mix going to platform, stage, or ledge.

OVERALL

Jiggs is an annoying character to fight against. You have to watch for that reverse neutral air rest thing, but that’s not that big of a deal. You have to watch for up tilt rest, but not at like 20%+ so you shouldn’t really get killed by it unless you’re at the edge of a stage with bad DI or it is a small stage. Mewtwo is so floaty and light that he actually avoids most of Jiggs’ combos. Back air chains would be as rough as they get, but at middle percentages DIing away or up usually does the trick naturally.

Keep running around and looking for openings, and eventually they’ll turn up. Jiggs has no projectile and you do. Jiggs can’t KO you, but you can’t KO Jiggs either unless you both try to fight. Jiggs has a bigger grab range than you, so if it comes to a ground game, you’ll be better off looking to tilt more often than play for grabs since Jiggs can also crouch under yours unless you space it at the correct distance or catch that slight head turn thingy that Jiggs does when she crouches, lol.

Be the gingerbread man and you’ll do much better in this match.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I want to hug Taj.
=D *sparkles*

So yea, I was thinking teleporting was a bad idea against Jigs, so thanks for confirming it.

Would Dash Attack have any place in Approaching Jiggs? When I've used it it seems to stop most aerials that Jiggs is doing and gets hit for an opening to a UAir or something. Your thoughts?
-DD

 

[otg]

Awesome work Taj.. I have a slight question about dealing with Falco's shield pressure. What are the best options to deal with pillaring, does M2 have any good options oos?

 

[DarkDragoon]

Awesome work Taj.. I have a slight question about dealing with Falco's shield pressure. What are the best options to deal with pillaring, does M2 have any good options oos?

Pillaring is mostly used to wittle away shields, so the best OOS option would be to escape it with a teleport, although chances are you will be hit, so just DI away and then teleport and hope he doesn't predict your landing.

o_o But I'm not Taj.

-DD

 

[Taj278]

OTG- Falco can't "Pillar" Mewtwo's shield effectively because Mewtwo has so little traction. If Falco goes for a second down air shine on your shield it is almost always going to be a free shield grab or it will be so poorly spaced that you can just drop your shield and down tilt/pivot grab/pivot confusion/DJC Forward Air out of shield/Whatever the hell you want because that would be really predictable and bad.

Dark Dragoon- Dash attack CAN work but it is REALLY risky. The only times I see it working are as Jiggs is landing from an aerial it you hit with it toward the end, or if you're looking to have it trade with the end of a forward air or something. If Jiggs is on the ground and you throw that out, it means Crouch Cancel rest.

A sweet spotted aerials should beat it out, or win the trade against M2's dash attack and it could also get you rested, so I don't recommend using it very often.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Hey, anyone wanna talk about stages against various characters? =D I generally stick with Final Destination and Dream Land because I feel like Mewtwo's kinda slow with the whole getting-into-the-air business, and so he can't platform dash as well as the other characters I use can. If I do counterpick stages, it's generally to play on the other characters' weaknesses, or paring down on a particularly annoying tactic they have.

What do you guys think?

 

[Taj278]

Mewtwo's best stages are FD, Pokemon Stadium, and Battlefield. Those three stages are large enough for him to move around, and the ceilings are high enough so that he doesn't die too early from things like up throw up air, but low enough to get reasonable KOs on other characters. They're also decently wide so he doesn't die off the side as easily either.

Dreamland is usually a stage that's ok to play against a Marth despite losing the guaranteed 126% up throw, it turns into something like 156% or so, but Marth can't KO you as easily either and you can play for more back air edge guards, which is ok. Jiggs and Peach are annoying as hell on Dream Land, and Yoshi's Story can be much better for the Jiggs match-up can be awful for the Peach match-up.

Jungle Japes is a bad counter-pick stage, but it's also amazing at the same time. You can do cool teleport ledge cancels and move around the stage almost as cool as Falco, and the Forward B pull works even better on that stage because of the water, but it is a double edged stage since it is VERY WIDE and the ceiling is VERY HIGH.

Rainbow Cruise is a good counter pick for ICs

I wouldn't take Mewtwo to Corneria, but I suppose down throw tech chases up the slope of the stage could be nice with the low ceiling.

DK 64 has a high Ceiling, but you can jump and teleport through the stage which can be kinda nice for rising neutral airs against some characters.

I'm extremely partial to FD for every match-up as Mewtwo, but that's how I am with any character. I love FD and I'd play every character on FD even if it is blatantly disadvantageous. I'll play Falcon against spacies on FD, I'll play Falcon vs. Peach, Falco/Fox vs. Marth, it's all good.

The way I play Mewtwo just seems to flow best on FD, PS, BF, and to a lesser extent FoD because of the rising and falling platforms, but really I only practice on neutrals, so I guess I can adapt to any character on any neutral. So worst case scenario is just getting Dreamland 64 against nasty floaties like Jiggs, Peach, and possibly Samus.

Fox becomes harder to combo from anywhere on the stage, but you can still combo him, and being able to live an extra 15-20% off the top from Fox can be pretty nice sometimes. Falco has an even tougher time killing off Mewtwo as well.

Falcon will just keep doing the **** thing regardless. You just get down throw kneed to death one more time I guess.

I can go into more detail on an existing match-up and stage if you'd like.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

@_@ That's a lot of info...

But yeah... wow... that all makes sense.

Doesn't Mewtwo get a little screwed on the recovery on Japes though?

 

[Taj278]

Nah, Mewtwo can choose to go under the side platforms with teleport kinda like Falco's phantasm, recovering high and going to the center stage directly since it can hard for most characters to cover that much ground jumping from platform to platform.

I never really had a recovery problem on that stage. Plus, if they try to edgeguard them, it's more likely for them to get hit by up air through the stage or pulled through the stage with confusion.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh... hm, interesting.

One more thing, do you know how to pull people through Pokemon Stadium? I can do it sometimes, but not very consistently, and I'm not sure what's affecting it.

 

[Taj278]

If they try to jump toward the stage and hit the lip. That's pretty much it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh... thanks!

 

[DarkDragoon]

What stages do you usually ban/strike?

I do my best to make sure Yoshi's is banned, cause I die really fast there almost regardless of match-up.

Ever have to play Mewtwo on Mute City? I would think the stage favors Mewtwo like it favor's Jiggs, only to a lesser extent because...Mewtwo isn't Jiggs.

But you can confusion them anywhere on the stage basically, right?

I don't have my Wii with me at the moment, otherwise I'd test it.

-DD

 

[Taj278]

Mute City is not that great for Mewtwo. The stage is small with no ledges or platforms so it actually hurts Mewtwo's recovery and evasiveness. The ceiling can also be high. Confusion through the stage is worthless since... everyone can jump through the stage from underneath. The only positive thing I can see about Mute City would be against Fox/Falco/Falcon just because it is also affects their recoveries too. If you happen to get the first few grabs against them, then you can perform FD **** combos on them and they'll have no ledge to sweet spot making them very easy to control.

Mewtwo vs Floaties, I tend to ban Dream Land. Mewtwo vs. Fast Fallers I would ban Yoshi's Story.

As far as counter-pick stages are concerned, I would would probably dislike DK64, Brinstar, and Mute City. Jungle Japes is welcome just cuz I'm somewhat comfortable on that stage, Rainbow Cruise is ok, and Corneria is bearable. Those sloped stages can really screw with your spaced tilts though, so you have to be careful of that.

 

[Shadow Huan]

@ DarkDragoon. Huh. Glad to meet you again dude. Well, I've dropped the "mew3" nonsense since the Conneticonn and am now SB2: I've gotten much better since then too. We'll have to have a Mewtwo ditto set if we're ever in the same tourny. We Mewtwo players are few and far between. As for the Ganondorf match-up, I beleive Taj had a segment on him a ways back. It's good: take a look. I don't find Ganondorf too much of a problem unless there's a huge gap in the skill levels, but on the other side of it, I have never more than two stocked one...

@ Taj: Yeah, 159% without a DI is Falco's number, and 172% with one. The magic number for the B-Throw on FD is 140 or so: even if he DI's he'll either not be able to make it back or you can easily gimp or smash him. I personally find Mute City to be a good stage for MY Mewtwo, simply because of the superb recovery. I would NOT fight a Jiggly there, or any other character with a really good recovery, but anyone who is reliant on edge grabs is dead meat if you play your cards right. I love JJ and Rainbow Cruise. If I had to pick a level that my M2's not good on, it would be FoD: those moving platforms screw me up occasionally. As for Corneria, I can make it work, but it's definatly not very M2 friendly. Although Confusion works there too.

 

[DarkDragoon]

@ DarkDragoon. Huh. Glad to meet you again dude. Well, I've dropped the "mew3" nonsense since the Conneticonn and am now SB2: I've gotten much better since then too. We'll have to have a Mewtwo ditto set if we're ever in the same tourny. We Mewtwo players are few and far between. As for the Ganondorf match-up, I beleive Taj had a segment on him a ways back. It's good: take a look. I don't find Ganondorf too much of a problem unless there's a huge gap in the skill levels, but on the other side of it, I have never more than two stocked one...

Lololol. Gannondorf wasn't the problem, Rep was. Rep is too good.
Also, I'll be going to College up in Worcester, so we can probably play more if you're still up there next fall and stuff.

Or just come down for more CT Tournaments.
-DD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Confusion works on Corneria? @_@

 

[Omni_Smash]

lolz, that sounds like fun.

 

[PK Webb]

Does anyone know of any good mewtwo vs captain falcon vids???? Im trying to make a video character match up thread (just for fun) and i need a captain falcon video

 

[DarkDragoon]

>_> Uh...Quak had lots of vids where he was like, "And I'm playing Captain Falcon...again."

Check around.
-DD

 

[Shadow Huan]

Lololol. Gannondorf wasn't the problem, Rep was. Rep is too good.
Also, I'll be going to College up in Worcester, so we can probably play more if you're still up there next fall and stuff.

Yeah, I'll still be in Ma, unless I move unexpectedly. I played a really good Ganon recently, and won by the skin of my teeth, so I know how infururatingly difficult a good one can be. Too bad he recovered right into my Shadowball.

Or just come down for more CT Tournaments.
-DD

Maybe... there's a tourny up in Greenfield next Sat. I'm gonna try to get to. Roman and a few others are pretty sure I'm the only high-level M2 in Mass, which may work out for me lol.

Confusion works on Corneria? @_@

O.o WHOA I know something that you guys didn't?! Well, Confusion works on both ends of Corneria, but I would reccomend doing it on the tail, where there's a better chance of the opponent not being able to recover in any way. You can do it at the other end, but they'll just land on the guns and try to recover. I like to do it on that side when the guns are powering up though. :bigthumbu Course you can do it on that side, then gimp/murder them when they try to get back up lol.

lolz, that sounds like fun.

It's very fun yes, esp. since a lot of people don't know it can be done there lol.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I'll be sure to try it @_@ I dunno, I don't play non-neutrals that much, and especially not as Mewtwo =P

 

[elvenarrow3000]

So uhhh... next matchup?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Kirby perhaps?

 

[DarkDragoon]

Pft. Kirby. What a wimp.
*Hides from PinkReaper*

>_> I actually have no idea how fight Kirby. I just figure take him like you would Jigglypuff, just don't be scared of getting rested because...you can get rested LOL.
-DD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Here's a Mewtwo vs Falcon match because I don't want to think about Kirby. Kirby sucks. Why would you have trouble with Kirby? Just don't mess around near the edge with him and abuse your range.

Kirby's not very fast anyway, so just treat him like a slow Jigglypuff. Hock Shadow Balls at him at will and then swat him away. His good aerials are the bair and uair, but as long as you don't get utilted, he won't really have a chance to land them. Bair would probably mess his recovery up really badly, especially if you're fighting a Kirby who fairs after every jump and he dies very quickly off the top...

 

[Taj278]

Kirby is annoying. That's why I only had like two clips against a Kirby in my combo vid. Mewtwo has nothing but an easy up throw. Kirby's grab out ranges Mewtwo's grab.

Kirby tilts are also not bad and good to crouch cancel against Mewtwo. Kirby also has the lowest crouch in the game, meaning he's very difficult to grab. Just no reliable finishers for Kirby. Mewtwo has early up throws though, about 108% if I remember correctly with appropriate DI.

You really just have to do what Elvenarrow said and play safe, lots of pokes, and treat his tilts like Jiggs' Wall of Pain or aerial spam. Win the attrition fight, deny his recovery, and keep building damage toward that grab and up throw.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I have to say, if im ever in this match up(which is rare and i don't have people like Taj to play against) I find the easiest way to win is just to play really gay. If I can get a hold of shadow balls I don't give them up for anything. Mewtwo is really annoying otherwise as his Wavetilts get inside Kirby's crappy range really easily. Shield->Fair tends to beat out whatever M2's got going in approaches and Bair can outprioritize the Nair.

Kirby has no easy kills on M2, but then M2 doesn't really on Kirby either. His Uthrow is beast on Kirby but it's not too difficult to avoid as long as you stay crouched as much as possible. M2 probably has the advantage though as Kirby can't really kill him without a lucky Edge Guard or a Uair(Not that it's THAT hard to hit the giant target that is mewtwo) A Bair wont kill until roughly 160% with proper DI from Mewtwo. Kirby can actually shield pressure M2 well with Crouch Canceled Jabs, simply eating away at his shield while avoiding Shield Grabs with his ******** height until it's small enough for an aerial or tilt. Inhale is actually an amazing move in this match up as it eats through a huge amount of Mewtwo's options(no pun intended) and in some cases, such as on smaller stages, is a much better option than taking shadow balls. It manages to get through any attempt to air guard as Kirby can actually out prioritize most of M2's aerials and just swallowcide him for an easy KO(any Kirby player worth his salt wont miss the giant cancel window)

Granted, there's not much Kirby can do against M2's recovery so it does quickly become a battle of attrition. Low percent Utilt combo's can work, and platform tech chasing can lead into more things due to M2's horrible tech. Kirby at least avoids being KO'd from Side B

 

[Winston]

Wow this sounds like the most miserable matchup conceivable.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Wow this sounds like the most miserable matchup conceivable.

>_> Sonic v. Peach in Brawl is probably the worst match in all of Smash History.

<_< I frequently run out of all 8 minutes on the clock when trying to do that match because it takes sooooo long.

As for new Mewtwo match up:

Luigi~!

I had to fight Pakman in pools at my last Tournament, and since I had no idea how to deal with Luigi...nor did I feel like I would get much of a chance to experiment against Pakman, I just went with Sheik and got ***** the good 'ol fashioned way.

Anyways~

I assume Mewtwo has a terrible time with this match, since Luigi will just slide out of his range, and then slide back in during ending lag.
And UpB kills on Mewtwo have to be pretty easy with Mewtwo being so big and all. I guess this would be a match where you need to properly time tilts and have a good ledge game, and until you attack you're stuck inside a shield or sliding around.

...or rack up enough damage for a UThrow kill with shadow ball spam...and I think the magic number is around 120% with DI...

Maybe some low percent UTilt strings into FAir or UAir for quick damage and from there just play it safe?

Ugh, I can already feel this match sucking.

-DD