Guide Taj's Character Match-Up Discussion

[elvenarrow3000]

One matchup at a time, peeps. And no mention of that-other-game-in-which-Mewtwo-is-not.

It's not even Brawl anymore. It's just Meta Knight and others.

 

[Taj278]

For now, I'll just say this about Luigi... Luigi is tied with Samus for third easiest up throw kill in the game at 103% FD.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well I guess if we're doing Luigi...

Luigi's aerials are strong and they're fast. Very dangerous. Watch for his shorthop double aerials - it'll usually be something like a fair or a dair into a nair. If they use an early aerial that's not the nair, they can waveland out of it, so be on your toes. Don't try to grab unless you're both in range and you know that he won't hit you with an aerial. If he grabs you, chances are he'll dthrow, from which he'll most likely try to follow up with a fair or a dair, both of which hurt, so DI as best you can away from them. Behind him should help you avoid the fair, but if he wavedashes into a dair, he'll probably be able to catch you, so watch out.

Luigi's main approach will most likely be the wavedash dsmash, ftilt or grab. Sometimes he'll use the... Luigi Tornado? I have no idea what it's called. In any case, his wavedash gives him very fast movement speed, but only on the ground. In the air, he's slow. You can capitalize on this by throwing Shadow Balls to impinge on his movement, but watch for waveshielding. Spaced dtilts should also be able to choke his movement. If you can bait him into going into the air, he's committed for at least thirty-one frames - that's a shorthop fastfall. Once you manage to get him into the air, try to keep him there. His dair hurts, is fast and has a lot of priority, so be careful. Your usmash should be able to beat him out there. Take your time, he's not going to be faking you out with a doublejump since he's so floaty. Watch for the hover-then-drop Tornado though.

Once you get Luigi off the stage, you should try to be aggressive and go for the kill. If you can spike him a good distance out, that's going to be the stock because his Meteor Cancel is almost completely worthless. Dsmash is an excellent edgeguard as he can only go straight up with his Super Jump Punch. An easier way to edgeguard him would be with the lightshield edgehog. The same one people do to Marth. Actually, this edgeguard works against every character with only a single hit on their recovery and possibly some others. If you do decide to go with this option, be prepared to jump out and bair him if he decides to be clever and airdodge to recover instead. Oh, and be careful of misfires. They suck.

If he manages to latch onto the edge, try baiting out a ledgehopped attack. A lot of Luigis love ledgehopped fairs, but his floatiness can really screw him over here. If you see him ledgehop an attack by dropping and immediately jumping and can avoid it with a dashdance or a short wavedash, you can fsmash him back out and suddenly he's minus his jump. He can ledgehop double aerial too, so be careful of that if you're going for a shieldgrab. In this situation, if you have a charged Shadow Ball, you can shorthop back and throw it at him, which should be easier than the fsmash. Also, charged Shadow Balls should work well against his Green Missile recovery because of its linear nature.

That's about all I can come up with at the moment...

 

[Taj278]

I didn't say I was going to do Luigi yet! /roar

 

[Winston]

For now, I'll just say this about Luigi... Luigi is tied with Samus for third easiest up throw kill in the game at 103% FD.

is there a list of magic numbers for all characters on FD?

And how come you never give the numbers for other stages? >.>

 

[PK Webb]

Well FD i think is the best stage for mewtwo so i love those magic number keep them coming taj

 

[Taj278]

is there a list of magic numbers for all characters on FD?

And how come you never give the numbers for other stages? >.>

FD is just the most convenient and common stage for me to play/practice on. I use FD as a benchmark for the other common stages like Battlefield and Pokemon Stadium. With Stadium you usually subtract about 3-5% from the FD magic number and you add about 5% for Battlefield.

I'm actually just giving numbers based on memory, but I'll get around to making a chart for everyone eventually. When I was going through every character and up throwing them, I didn't have the intention of writing them down and sharing it just because it was something for me to know by myself, and this was also a couple years ago as well, which is why I only remember the common characters' percentages.

If it really matters to you though, you're just as obligated as I am to compile a list for every character on all 6 neutrals with appropriate DI yourself.

 

[DarkDragoon]

FD is just the most convenient and common stage for me to play/practice on. I use FD as a benchmark for the other common stages like Battlefield and Pokemon Stadium. With Stadium you usually subtract about 3-5% from the FD magic number and you add about 5% for Battlefield.

I'm actually just giving numbers based on memory, but I'll get around to making a chart for everyone eventually. When I was going through every character and up throwing them, I didn't have the intention of writing them down and sharing it just because it was something for me to know by myself, and this was also a couple years ago as well, which is why I only remember the common characters' percentages.

If it really matters to you though, you're just as obligated as I am to compile a list for every character on all 6 neutrals with appropriate DI yourself.

>_> Zing~!

So if we're not doing Luigi...who are we doing?
-DD

 

[Shadow Huan]

I'll be sure to try it @_@ I dunno, I don't play non-neutrals that much, and especially not as Mewtwo =P

My way of thinking about that goes like this: If you ever intend on taking Mewtwo into a serious match, then you should know how he's played on any avalable stage, which will make it harded for someone to counter-pick you. I'm working on my FoD game, but I have a different method of play for every stage I'm on that could be considered a legal counter-pick. That's all there is to it really...

One matchup at a time, peeps. And no mention of that-other-game-in-which-Mewtwo-is-not.

Seriously...

It's not even Brawl anymore. It's just Meta Knight and others.

Or just MK vs....MK.

About the match-ups, I thought that G&W was up next... did I miss it?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I have no idea what's going on.

 

[Taj278]

You may as well continue with the Luigi discussion. I don't care anymore. I'll post my thoughts later.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

What're we supposed to be doing then...? @_@

 

[Taj278]

Luigi is what I said, so continue discussing Luigi.

 

[Winston]

FD is just the most convenient and common stage for me to play/practice on. I use FD as a benchmark for the other common stages like Battlefield and Pokemon Stadium. With Stadium you usually subtract about 3-5% from the FD magic number and you add about 5% for Battlefield.

I'm actually just giving numbers based on memory, but I'll get around to making a chart for everyone eventually. When I was going through every character and up throwing them, I didn't have the intention of writing them down and sharing it just because it was something for me to know by myself, and this was also a couple years ago as well, which is why I only remember the common characters' percentages.

If it really matters to you though, you're just as obligated as I am to compile a list for every character on all 6 neutrals with appropriate DI yourself.

I really didn't mean to sound critical or demanding, for both questions I was just curious.

>.> sorry...

 

[Shadow Huan]

UHHH... Luigi. I've never had the chance to play against a competent Luigi. I know a few things bout his bro and Doc, but nothing on Luigi... I suppose I'd try to go for the throat...

 

[DarkDragoon]

UHHH... Luigi. I've never had the chance to play against a competent Luigi. I know a few things bout his bro and Doc, but nothing on Luigi... I suppose I'd try to go for the throat...

Well, Luigi isn't as fearsome against Mewtwo as he is against other characters...because Mewtwo isn't super-duper combo'd by him...and I think that NAir gets around...or matches up with most of the opportunities for Luigi's aerials.

On the ground...I suggest getting REALLY good timing down with some wavetilts...cause that's all Luigi is going to launch at you while you're on the ground.
-DD

 

[Shadow Huan]

Well, Luigi isn't as fearsome against Mewtwo as he is against other characters...because Mewtwo isn't super-duper combo'd by him...and I think that NAir gets around...or matches up with most of the opportunities for Luigi's aerials.

On the ground...I suggest getting REALLY good timing down with some wavetilts...cause that's all Luigi is going to launch at you while you're on the ground.
-DD

I see. Well, I like wavetilts anyways... It's just something I'll have to learn on my own I guess...

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't know about the aerial thing, DarkDragoon. Luigi's nair is out on frame three. Mewtwo's is not that fast.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I don't know about the aerial thing, DarkDragoon. Luigi's nair is out on frame three. Mewtwo's is not that fast.

>.> All the more reason timing is super-de-duper important?

If you started your NAir at the same time as any of Luigi's aerials then you're just going to get smacked. The trick would be baiting the Luigi into thinking he can get around your NAir, but only to trap them inside it.

How? No idea. Not too good with that "mindgames" thing.
-DD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

That seems a little rough... Mewtwo's airspeed isn't that good... he can't do that friggin' aerial dashdance that Jiggs can... and the nair doesn't have that much range... I dunno, lemme know if you come up with anything.

 

[Shadow Huan]

>.> All the more reason timing is super-de-duper important?

If you started your NAir at the same time as any of Luigi's aerials then you're just going to get smacked. The trick would be baiting the Luigi into thinking he can get around your NAir, but only to trap them inside it.

You could always N-Air out of sheild I suppose. Not something I do a lot, but it works to surprise the crud out of whomever you're playing as long as it's not abused. Would it work on Luigi? hmmm...

How? No idea. Not too good with that "mindgames" thing.
-DD

Mindgames? You simply strike a blow and shout "That's mindgames right there!" K.O. your opponent's character while they're cursing at you for shouting in their ear.

But seriously, Mewtwo is all about mindgames. Don't have a Tag and Teleport around randomly: that's a winner.

That seems a little rough... Mewtwo's airspeed isn't that good... he can't do that friggin' aerial dashdance that Jiggs can... and the nair doesn't have that much range... I dunno, lemme know if you come up with anything.

Mewtwo can turn around in the air over and over if he cancels his Shadowball charge. It's not the same, and it's usless really: it helps to do the "Mewtwo shine" that Taj does at the end of his first vid, but that's it. I use Mewtwo's airspeed to screw around with whomever's trying to get me, unless I'm playing Yoshi or Jiggs...

 

[DarkDragoon]

Yea...Luigi is a really bad match for Mewtwo...

>_> Luigi is light enough that there are only a few combos that could work on him...but his NAir comes out too fast so getting anything beyond 2 hits seems to be a chore...or dumb luck. Keeping the distance with spaced Shadowballs and keeping on the ground at basically all times seems to be how to take this one... ugh I'm so not playing this matchup if I can avoid it.
-DD

 

[Shadow Huan]

I'm sure Taj has some stuff to say about it. There's about 100 clips of him 4 stocking Black Mamba's Luigi in Shadowclaw 2. *Misses part 1.*

 

[DarkDragoon]

I'm sure Taj has some stuff to say about it. There's about 100 clips of him 4 stocking Black Mamba's Luigi in Shadowclaw 2. *Misses part 1.*

!!!
I forgot about that.
-DD

 

[Shadow Huan]

They added some new music to the original, but I almost fell asleep listening to it lol...

 

[DarkDragoon]

They added some new music to the original, but I almost fell asleep listening to it lol...

>_> Then I lucked out when I downloaded them then.
Weee~

But uh...
From some more messing with it...since Luigi does lots of sliding around when you keep him grounded, if you can catch any sort of pattern he follows...and go for the disable! Then get the killing UThrow.

That, or try to outlast Luigi's shield pressure and get a shieldgrab...and that's the best I can come up with for getting that low-percent UThrow kill...but I'm pretty sure he would see it coming every point after that.

If you get Luigi off the stage some how, at least from what I saw in the ShadowClaws, it is relatively simple to keep him down if you knock him downwards or out, so Shadowballs and NAirs are your friend...and DAir never hurts...just hit with it LOL.


-DD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...how does turning with the Shadow Ball help Mewtwo's maneuverability?

 

[Shadow Huan]

...how does turning with the Shadow Ball help Mewtwo's maneuverability?

... ? I didn't say it did. In fact, I said it was useless unless you're going for Taj's "Shine". Using an air attack at the top of the second jump does help the meneuverability though...

 

[PK Webb]

this is a question that i dont mind anyone answering. How do you deal with falcos that only approach while lasering?

 

[Taj278]

Powershield and teleport/wavedash into them, Wavedash out of shield in between lasers and move away on the aerial approach and move toward him on retreats, jump in the air or onto a platform and wait for Falco to try and shoot you then drop down/teleport and get under him and play from there...

 

[V3ctorMan]

Teleporting, another good method, not sure if Taj said it already but, is to repeatedly teleport and run and reapproach.. Make the Falco come to you, and usually wait for an opening "meaning" a badly placed laser, a mistimed L cancel anything. Try and make the Falco mess up once you have an opening getting damage on Falco isn't that difficult.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I want in. For a laser camping Falco I usually Teleport in place (Something I happen to LOVE to do...), and then start Teleport towards and away from him randomly. It can wear on the nerves of the Falco and cause him to do something else, and that something else is usually sloppy and rushed. (Unless it's a Falco like PC Chris lol...)

For the approach, I do what they don't expect: I take the hits and wait. Falco can't actually rapid-fire it even SHFFLing the lasers. When he gets closer the sheild comes into play, followed by a Teleport to wherever I feel like going. Somethime its nowhere but right there. Throw, juggle, gimp, and then do something totally different for the next stock. Powersheilding is a good thing IF you can time it...

 

[V3ctorMan]

shadowball: just to let you know what you put above will have nearly no effect on any solid falco, if you're just going to take the hits and do the repeated teleport it will eventually become predictable and against any advanced falco, you're method won't work.

Blocking w/Mewtwo is vital yes, but you'll most likely be waveshielding w/Mewtwo more than any other character just to make an approach, then you have to add everything else into the mix.

But good advice nonetheless just make sure you be a bit more specified.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I did say that if it's a good Falco teleporting won't do much good, esp. if you abuse it. Teleporting around is good for a CAMPING Falco, and not much else really.

As for one that's approching, I think you're right: I didn't explain myself clearly did I? ok, a laser SFFLing Falco is messing around on the other end of FD, baiting me to make a move for instance. I've already gimped him once, but he's being careful about recklessly going for a drill-shine again. If i feel up to it, I'll ledge hog teleport until he feels like coming over.

For one that's being aggressive and trying to keep me in one place, I usually Wavedash back and forth, sheilding and side-stepping. (Yes I do sidestep, but not when he's anywhere near me: that = DEATH.) Falco can close the distance fast, and THAT's when Teleporting comes into play. I don't use it too much in a match, and I'm just as likly to sheild grab or N-Air out of sheild. My playstyle is kinda unusual so it's hard to articulate. I'm playing someone today and I'll see if he'll post some matches.

I'll be back later on...

 

[V3ctorMan]

k.. much better man ^^

 

[Shadow Huan]

Well, Roman and I played and he more or less trashed me 8 ways to sunday lol. I got some decent kills and wins in, but the guy's good...

I'll put up some of my wins and most of my losses for critque. Please be kind >.>

I should have some stuff up by tomarrow cause he's posting them sometime tonight.

Oh, and thanks. I didn't have a chance to do much of that tonight; the skill level is still uneven...

 

[DarkDragoon]

Well, Roman and I played and he more or less trashed me 8 ways to sunday lol. I got some decent kills and wins in, but the guy's good...

I'll put up some of my wins and most of my losses for critque. Please be kind >.>

I should have some stuff up by tomarrow cause he's posting them sometime tonight.

Oh, and thanks. I didn't have a chance to do much of that tonight; the skill level is still uneven...

I've gone against roman before!

He's good. I don't think I used Mewtwo.
-DD

 

[Shadow Huan]

I've gone against roman before!

He's good. I don't think I used Mewtwo.
-DD

Yeah, he's really good. His Doc and Marth are better than my entire world basically. I can still eek out a win or two though...

 

[Denthorn]

I figured I'd do something useful for my first post, so I went ahead and compiled a list of Up-Throw kill percentages for each character on Final Destination. The only thing that slightly confused me was Falco's number, as I got 171% and Taj said 172%, so it's possible I might've done something wrong in so far as my testing method is concerned, but I'm sure the numbers are at the very least close to what they should be for perfect DI. Bolded percentages are with DI, un-bolded percentages are with no DI. Also, all characters are ordered according to the tier list (kind of obvious, but meh).

Top
Fox: 152%/163%
Marth: 117%/126%
Shiek: 118%/127%
Falco: 159%/171%

High
Peach: 96%/105%
Captain Falcon: 151%/162%
Jigglypuff: 86%/96%
Ice Climbers: 98%/106%

Middle
Samus: 95%/103%
Dr. Mario: 101%/110%
Ganondorf: 118%/128%
Luigi: 95%/103%
Donkey Kong: 128%/138%
Mario: 101%/110%

Low
Link: 117%/127%
Pikachu: 108%/118%
Young Link: 117%/127%
Roy: 128%/138%
Zelda: 92%/101%
Game and Watch: 101%/110%

Bottom
Ness: 103%/113%
Yoshi: 107%/116%
Bowser: 116%/125%
Mewtwo: 97%/105%
Kirby: 96%/105%
Pichu: 107%/117%

For testing I went into training mode and played around with the percentage for each character until I found a percentage that killed without DI and with the computer set to human controlled. After that I just inched the percentage up bit by bit until I found the percentage that killed with the control stick for player two held directly horizontal, in front of Mewtwo. I also suicided between each try to reset stale moves. I'm guessing the DI is where I might've done something wrong if I did make a mistake, so if this is incorrect DI then please feel free to correct me.

Oh, and lol@bowser being easier to Up-Throw KO than roy.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh my God, Denthorn, you're awesome. This should totally be on the first page too.

Bowser is easier to uthrow kill than Roy because he falls slower, and that's all that matters for throws.