Taco Bell Mafia: Game over. Who won?

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'll get to that checklist in a moment, by the way. So don't ask about it.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

cool.

#319 is a logic fail though

if reason > vote
= / =
if vote > reason

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

So I guess I'm going have to write a wall on Vinyl. even though his play is transparent and I find myself laughing at the idea that anyone else isn't seeing this and people had him as town. I believe I've already stated the basis of it, refusal to be relevant and not explaining his actions. When I question Vinyl., he completely ignores me to every extent of it, literally not being able to explain one vote on Glyph. He contradicts himself in the process, as already pointed out. I would like to note that Vinyl. is also playing a style of survivalist, being very careful about his voting patterns. It's lead me to believe that he voted Glyph simply because Zen asked him to and he wanted to play it safe and not go against his will. It was complete kneejerk reaction and it explains why he doesn't have a reason to vote him. Other than that, Vinyl. has been useless. I don't recall Vinyl. making a direct stance this whole game, in fact he hasn't even tried, he would rather make excuses for his own play (#262 and trying to get attention off of him (#272, #273, #279, #281).

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'll continue if you're not convinced, and be more detailed. This is really just added points that solidify my first argument. I don't know why he isn't voting me but it stems into what I said already and he's playing too careful with his votes, How Zen got the idea of me and him being partners is beyond me.

 

[Inferno3044]

Vinyl is mega godly town.

I disagree with this. Vinyl atm is developing to be an early scum read for me. I don't like his attitude towards Soup (who atm I think is being quite towny) and I do agree is sheeping Zen in a bad way.

I meant my reads list. I stated Ryker was town. Then you asked me my read on Ryker right after it.

Vinyl is town because he claimed Vanilla like it was nothing. He didn't hesitate at all when I asked for his claim. So far he is not trying to put up an appearance like in that game that does not exist. He's just doing his thing.

Terrible reason to say someone is town. Please don't let this cloud any views of Vinyl.

Vinyl just is. HE JUST IS. I can see it in his eyes, the same eyes that I once saw in a game from a far away land. He is but the towniest of townies, the silliest of sillies, and the purest of...puries.

My ray bands don't lie. They're practically the same thing as scouters from DBZ, except I can tell alignment instead.

Soup is giving Vinyl a hard time, probably because it's easy to pick on Vinyl. Null. Glyph is probably Town. Maybe. I won't say why I think this way for now.

Ryker is Ryker, he can do whatever he wants and I see no problem with him doing it for the time being.

You want a possible scumRyker to do what he wants? I have not developed a read on Ryker yet so him doing what he wants and manipulate the town is not good.

Oh and to answer you Zen

Soup = towny
Glyph = null
Bardull = scumlean

Catching up as I can. Will post more when I can.

 

[Vinylic.]

#319 isn't really pointing out something here.

You say the vote on glyph was sheeping, and I said I only voted glyph for zen's favor, not by my own personal reasoning, which means that it ain't no damn RVS.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

and I said I only voted glyph for zen's favor, not by my own personal reasoning, which means that it ain't no damn RVS.

I literally have no reason why I voted glyph though. If I did have a reason I'd vote.

Hm ...

 

[Vinylic.]

If I did have a reason, I'd vote,

If I did have a explanation why I voted glyph as scum, I'd vote.

If I voted glyph for zen's favor, I have no reason from my own view.

 

[ranmaru]

Votecount 1.3

Ryker:Inferno3044, Kary
Inferno
Red Ryu
Vinyl.:soup, BardulL
Ramen King:Red Ryu
BardulL
Kary
soup:DtJ Glyphmoney
Dtj Glyphmoney:Ryker

Not Voting:
Vinyl., Ramen King

Notes:
N/A

*= Currently being replaced
**= V/LA

With 9 players, it takes 5 votes to lynch
The deadline for Day 1 is October 6th, at 11:59 PM

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

If I did have a reason, I'd vote,

If I did have a explanation why I voted glyph as scum, I'd vote.

If I voted glyph for zen's favor, I have no reason from my own view.

Wow! That took forever! You had no reason to vote Glyph. Great! You confirm you had no reason.

literally have no reason why I voted glyph though.

Explain this.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Wait wrong quote for the last post

fdasfsd

also didn't make nor say that my vote on glyph was also an RVS.

 

[Vinylic.]

You were referencing this to an RVS. I don't even know what you're trying to put up there.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Refer to the second quote.

You had no reason to vote Glyph. You admit this finally after 2 agonizing pages of conflict. You however state your vote was not RVS and that you did have reasoning. The only reasoning I could come up with is that you were voting because Zen asked you to, and you blatantly sheeped; You denied this at first.

 

[Vinylic.]

Where the boopadooblady did I say I denied that I was sheeping on the post you quoted?
And where the zppity bobbity have I denied that I voted him because zen asked me to?

Look at what you said here:

You state that you realize that RVS was over, so your vote isn't random.

This is what I'm denying here. You making this relevant to RVS is confusing. It's like you're twisting things here and I can see that by reading it.

I told you that I didn't say I realize it was over, I said it looked like it was over by the time I started it, meaning that I've BEEN knowing it was over, so I vote glyph because zen asked me to.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Talking to you is like running in circles.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Forget this, refute my other points.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Looking back through the thread I'm still feeling Soup for the day, though my reasons aren't as concrete as they were in my head talking about it earlier.

A big thing I look for in games (especially with players like Vinyl in them) are who's going for the easy lynch. I've been scum in games with Vinyl before and it is SO goddamn easy to find something he's done, slap a scum label on it and ride off into the sunset. Of course the only problem with this is Vinyl does really dumb scummy things on his own regardless of alignment so its really really as scum to look justified in the push.

Vinyl as scum is not a threat, and if left to his own devices will slip up at some point. Easy as that. At the moment I am NOT 100% sold on him being scum, especially considering the only thing he's done is vote when Zen told him to and that is textbook Vinyl play (sadly both scum and town Vinyl play).


Soup, on the other hand, has come at him with a fiery passion over that vote. Maybe Soup really DOES think its the scummiest thing in the world for someone like Vinyl to do as they're told without thinking when a power player gives them an instruction, but I've seen it happen too many times to leap to that scum read. My biggest concern is how little TownSoup gains from pushing the weak playerslot over such a flimsy point (and yes, it is flimsy when someone like Vinyl does it. Get back to me when OS is voting for someone just because Zen told him to) and how very much ScumSoup stands to gain.

If Vinyl's town, awesome, easy mislynch that no one can really hold against him. Vinyl is a liability at best (at least in my experience, I've heard he's improved so here's hoping) and no one's really going to sweat the loss.

The really fun part is where you consider a Vinyl/Soup scumteam. Flat out there is no scenario in which Vinyl should make it to end game, unless scum is literally throwing themselves out to be lynched over him. So imagine yourself aligned with Vinyl. You know its only a matter of time til he's run over, so why not capitalize on it while you have the chance and no one can accuse you of busing him? If Vinyl survives the lynch then you've built up a very persuasive case as to why you two are not aligned, and if the lynch does get pushed through you're sitting pretty as the driving force behind a scum lynch D1.


So that's why I'm saying Soup now, and only maybe Vinyl later. I see the whole situation brimming with scum potential for Soup and just not enough town motive to justify the aggression behind the actions.

Not only that, but by some COSMIC COINCIDENCE Soup's open to the game is calling Vinyl scum. How lucky that he wound up pushing Vinyl on his play too!


At the very least I want to see some more votes on Soup, or counter arguments to what I've said here.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Well, time to respond to this wall.

A big thing I look for in games (especially with players like Vinyl in them) are who's going for the easy lynch. I've been scum in games with Vinyl before and it is SO goddamn easy to find something he's done, slap a scum label on it and ride off into the sunset. Of course the only problem with this is Vinyl does really dumb scummy things on his own regardless of alignment so its really really as scum to look justified in the push.

Where in the world of Mafia does an easy lynch justify as a reason to not push a player? I don't care about Vinyl's. experience or if he's an easy push, he's scummy and he deserves every blunt word I've said to him. I don't understand your mindset of looking for the player who's going for the easy lynch, mostly because the person who is the easy lynch can be scum. How do you combat that? This is a serious question, and I want your analysis about it.

Vinyl as scum is not a threat, and if left to his own devices will slip up at some point. Easy as that. At the moment I am NOT 100% sold on him being scum, especially considering the only thing he's done is vote when Zen told him to and that is textbook Vinyl play (sadly both scum and town Vinyl play)

This seems like bias to me if anything. Not on the fact you're being biased towards me, but you're being biased towards Vinyl. He's not a strong scum player, absolutely, but that mean you treat him any different or give him leeway? No. You lynch scum when you find scum. You're not really sold on Vinyl. for a lot of silly reasons, most already provided. What do you think about the case I've presented on Vinyl. disregarding the whole point of the vote? I've really thrown that in the trash as I'm not getting the reaction I want either way.

If Vinyl's town, awesome, easy mislynch that no one can really hold against him. Vinyl is a liability at best (at least in my experience, I've heard he's improved so here's hoping) and no one's really going to sweat the loss.

I bring back the point of bias. I see you looking at this like if Vinyl. is just being or being scum. You haven't really leaned towards Vinyl. being town, but from your mindset I'm pushing something that is really easy and something I can get away with. You're not looking at the objective however, and not looking at the fact i'm pushing someone I think is scum despite these factors. Maybe we're not the same players and we don't consider the same things, but the line between dumb and scum is very thin for me and they don't decide where I'm going to lean. I believe that some things CAN be dumb over scum, but if they've already done meritable scummy things, then it contests that point in full.

The really fun part is where you consider a Vinyl/Soup scumteam. Flat out there is no scenario in which Vinyl should make it to end game, unless scum is literally throwing themselves out to be lynched over him. So imagine yourself aligned with Vinyl. You know its only a matter of time til he's run over, so why not capitalize on it while you have the chance and no one can accuse you of busing him? If Vinyl survives the lynch then you've built up a very persuasive case as to why you two are not aligned, and if the lynch does get pushed through you're sitting pretty as the driving force behind a scum lynch D1.

Actually, Vinyl. is really likely to make it to endgame considering his is not a boon for either alignment and could coast his way to victory and nobody would bat an eyelash. It's why players like Badwolf get there sometimes because nobody really cares and they just put him aside for so long and WHOOP he's in Lylo with you. I wouldn't bus Vinyl. here, I wouldn't even consider it. I would either let Vinyl. coast like badwolf or if I think he's starting to gain enough interest I might make a move on him, you're trying to say that I would throw my own damn partner under the bus for no justifiable reason other than he's really easy to throw under the bus. The fact with your point of Vinyl. surviving is complete crap, I'm not trying to distance us or make us seem like we're not partners, I'm trying to get him lynched or get him to respond to my pressure to a point where I'm satisfied. If he doesn't, he gets the damn noose. You could say that I have tunnel vision right now but that's only because his responses are crap and I don't like him at all, and I no reason to give him leeway. I will make it my last dying breath to get him lynched as long as I think he's scum.

So that's why I'm saying Soup now, and only maybe Vinyl later. I see the whole situation brimming with scum potential for Soup and just not enough town motive to justify the aggression behind the actions.

I'm aggressive with any player who I feel needs pressure or I am not satisfied with their play. I will grill them until I see fit and I will even overexxagerate it just to get the right amount of response/reaction.

Your case really boils down to a bias you're holding and looking at this from a perspective that Vinyl. is an easy push, you're ignoring what he does and think you just can flag it off as borderline ********. You think I'm pushing Vinyl. just because he's easy. I hope my response proves you otherwise.

I'm leaving now, I don't know when I'll be back.

 

[Vinylic.]

It's funny though.

You've been doing things like that to me in the past, and still is.

 

[Vinylic.]

What's funnier though I that you really don't care how I am in here. You're being direct on things.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

I have a lot to say to Soup's response, but I can't do it justice on mobile. Should be posted later tonight

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Prod dodge I'll get to this in a sec.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

//Soup, on the other hand, has come at him with a fiery passion over that vote. Maybe Soup really DOES think its the scummiest thing in the world for someone like Vinyl to do as they're told without thinking when a power player gives them an instruction, but I've seen it happen too many times to leap to that scum read.

//The really fun part is where you consider a Vinyl/Soup scumteam. Flat out there is no scenario in which Vinyl should make it to end game, unless scum is literally throwing themselves out to be lynched over him.

//Not only that, but by some COSMIC COINCIDENCE Soup's open to the game is calling Vinyl scum. How lucky that he wound up pushing Vinyl on his play too!

At the very least I want to see some more votes on Soup, or counter arguments to what I've said here.

Really like this post overall Glyph. I'm going to bring up a few points about your argument, but that doesn't mean I disagree with your conclusion.

#1 Don't clear Vinyl off meta, then not do the same for Soup. I agree that Soup is needlessly focusing on Vinyl, but I can see townSoup potentially doing that as well.

#2 I personally dislike suggesting alignments and then seeing what fits; so saying 'oh SvS makes so much sense here because...', as I feel it's easy to pick out things that support that conclusion, rather than looking at the play overall. In this particular case, I can't see why Soup would try and bus Vinyl over such a little thing, or on Day 1.

#3 Surely Soup's OP is RVS... I mean...

cool?

but then this post happened:

You could say that I have tunnel vision right now but that's only because his responses are crap and I don't like him at all, and I no reason to give him leeway. I will make it my last dying breath to get him lynched as long as I think he's scum.

except he might be town
I mean really, surely you've played with townVinyl and realise he's not the most coherent of players in the first place?

bleh

Soup please tell me why Vinyl has a 'terrible response to pressure' ?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Highlighted in my mini case to him, is there anything else I need to present?

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Working on a college application that's due tomorrow so I might have to delay my response slightly, but I'll at least get a skeleton up later tonight

 

[#HBC | Kary]

all i'm seeing is 'doesn't respond to me' and 'tries to shift attention #272 etc.' where vinyl basically says it would be bad to rush the Day.

or is that just self-evidently 'terrible'?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I just think it's avoiding conflict, which is one of my legitimate concerns, it meshs into that being safe issue I highlighted also. What's your perspective on Vinyl.?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

uhhh ok

townies may also want to avoid conflict, but ehhhh

my perspective on Vinyl is that I'll have a solid read on him before the end of D2, but right now all the things you're suggesting he's scummy for seem like reaching. I can see Vinyltown as a definite possibility, and I'm in no hurry to lynch him. I'll have to re-read him to see if I get any scumbvibes.

in the meantime,
@Vinyl: are you voting anyone right now? vote Ryker with me, let's make stuff happen.

 

[Vinylic.]

I'll have to re-read ryker and think about it. In the meantime, convince me.

I'm also fine with a soup lynch.
Zen and I are no longer buddies. :/

 

[Vinylic.]

Wtf, this guy didn't do crap.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Where in the world of Mafia does an easy lynch justify as a reason to not push a player? I don't care about Vinyl's. experience or if he's an easy push, he's scummy and he deserves every blunt word I've said to him. I don't understand your mindset of looking for the player who's going for the easy lynch, mostly because the person who is the easy lynch can be scum. How do you combat that? This is a serious question, and I want your analysis about it.

This is an incredibly reckless (and flawed at that) method of playing mafia. No matter how you cut it, Vinyl is a special case when being evaluated. Holding him to some blanket standard of what is scummy and what is not is a good way to get burned.

And you're absolutely right, Vinyl could be scum. At the present time I'm inclined to believe he is not, but as I talked about earlier if he is there is ZERO percent chance that he slips under the radar forever. Not with this playerlist.

But that's not really answering your question. In a more broad sense, if the easy lynch is scum its because they've played really really poorly and left some blatant clues as to why they should be killed. Vinyl has not done anything outside of, to put it delicately, be Vinylesque. You can't push a lynch on someone for not being good at mafia, there has to be some substance behind it.

This seems like bias to me if anything. Not on the fact you're being biased towards me, but you're being biased towards Vinyl. He's not a strong scum player, absolutely, but that mean you treat him any different or give him leeway? No. You lynch scum when you find scum. You're not really sold on Vinyl. for a lot of silly reasons, most already provided. What do you think about the case I've presented on Vinyl. disregarding the whole point of the vote? I've really thrown that in the trash as I'm not getting the reaction I want either way.

You make it sound like I should treat everyone in the same way in every instance, and that is simply not a productive approach to finding scum unless everyone plays exactly the same. Of course you have to take a step back and ask 'okay is this Vinyl voting because he wants the lynch or is this Vinyl voting because he was told to'.

That ain't bias, its knowing how to approach people based on their history.

As for your case on Vinyl, I'll discuss that towards the end of this post since its a rather important point in my own case.

I bring back the point of bias. I see you looking at this like if Vinyl. is just being or being scum. You haven't really leaned towards Vinyl. being town, but from your mindset I'm pushing something that is really easy and something I can get away with. You're not looking at the objective however, and not looking at the fact i'm pushing someone I think is scum despite these factors. Maybe we're not the same players and we don't consider the same things, but the line between dumb and scum is very thin for me and they don't decide where I'm going to lean. I believe that some things CAN be dumb over scum, but if they've already done meritable scummy things, then it contests that point in full.

I've already discussed the concerns of bias, and I'm confused by the wording of the first bit of this. I've discussed the potential of Vinyl being both town or scum from your perspective as well as the direction I'd like to take upon your flip.

In regards to your 'fact' that you think Vinyl is scum, its a non-entity. Regardless of alignment of course you're going to maintain that you believe your own opinions and I think its silly that you've even brought it up here at all. And the fact of the matter is Vinyl's vote is not the scummiest thing in the world when you're talking about Vinyl. Vinyl's lack of answers is not the scummiest thing in the world when you're talking about Vinyl. I find it very hard to buy that you're so gung-ho over this lynch over so very little to work with, even if you do have trouble discerning between dumb and scum.

Actually, Vinyl. is really likely to make it to endgame considering his is not a boon for either alignment and could coast his way to victory and nobody would bat an eyelash. It's why players like Badwolf get there sometimes because nobody really cares and they just put him aside for so long and WHOOP he's in Lylo with you. I wouldn't bus Vinyl. here, I wouldn't even consider it. I would either let Vinyl. coast like badwolf or if I think he's starting to gain enough interest I might make a move on him, you're trying to say that I would throw my own damn partner under the bus for no justifiable reason other than he's really easy to throw under the bus. The fact with your point of Vinyl. surviving is complete crap, I'm not trying to distance us or make us seem like we're not partners...

Vinyl will not be costing this game. If he starts to, he will be dragged back in if he likes it or not. If he can't handle that, he will be replaced and someone who can will fill his shoes.

I guess you're right in that Vinyl could make it to endgame, but not without persuading a LOT of good players that he is 100% town.

Your word on not busing Vinyl is not something I can just accept, especially when I've already gone into a good bit of detail on what you'd gain from it in every scenario.

I'm trying to get him lynched or get him to respond to my pressure to a point where I'm satisfied. If he doesn't, he gets the damn noose. You could say that I have tunnel vision right now but that's only because his responses are crap and I don't like him at all, and I no reason to give him leeway. I will make it my last dying breath to get him lynched as long as I think he's scum.

I'm aggressive with any player who I feel needs pressure or I am not satisfied with their play. I will grill them until I see fit and I will even overexxagerate it just to get the right amount of response/reaction.

Your case really boils down to a bias you're holding and looking at this from a perspective that Vinyl. is an easy push, you're ignoring what he does and think you just can flag it off as borderline ********. You think I'm pushing Vinyl. just because he's easy. I hope my response proves you otherwise.

I'm leaving now, I don't know when I'll be back.

Bolded is important, and here's where I'll talk about Soup's case on Vinyl.

Soup, you're not happy with how Vinyl's play because he voted me for no reason, dodged your questions, and 'had a terrible response to pressure'. You believe he is scum for those reasons as well.

But you mention twice there that you're putting pressure on him. If the people reading this case take only one thing away, let it be this next part. Your push on Vinyl is not one to pressure his slot. You've asked no questions of relevance and made no attempts to solidify your read on him beyond the initial point of him voting for me without backing.

THESE are not the actions of someone trying to find scum. These are not the actions of someone who thinks they have already found scum either. This is someone who's found a lead that they think can lead to a lynch and is relentlessly pursuing it until something gives way, and THAT is why I want you dead toDay.




-------------------------------------------------------

Really like this post overall Glyph. I'm going to bring up a few points about your argument, but that doesn't mean I disagree with your conclusion.

#1 Don't clear Vinyl off meta, then not do the same for Soup. I agree that Soup is needlessly focusing on Vinyl, but I can see townSoup potentially doing that as well.

#2 I personally dislike suggesting alignments and then seeing what fits; so saying 'oh SvS makes so much sense here because...', as I feel it's easy to pick out things that support that conclusion, rather than looking at the play overall. In this particular case, I can't see why Soup would try and bus Vinyl over such a little thing, or on Day 1.

#3 Surely Soup's OP is RVS... I mean...

cool?

but then this post happened:

except he might be town
I mean really, surely you've played with townVinyl and realise he's not the most coherent of players in the first place?

bleh

Soup please tell me why Vinyl has a 'terrible response to pressure' ?

Totally with you on almost everything you've said, but I do want to clarify I am in no way clearing Vinyl. Rather, I'm just not damning him for what should be taken as a null tell. The rest you're on the money about though.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Seriously, show me some Soup votes. I want at least two more people on the wagon with me.

 

[Vinylic.]

The thing is that I'm not that good at persuading. If I had some power role like cop or something, then yeah, that'd make things easier for me.

To the honest truth, I'm trying to convince others I'm town. "look town" if you want to put it that way. Whatever flaw I have will end up as a scummy play and etc. Instead of people considering more to go for anyone else, they feel more comfortable going for me based of my own prior actions.

Bah.

 

[Vinylic.]

Once more.

I'm Quesidilla, Vanilla Townie.

This is my honest claim here.

 

[Vinylic.]

Kary, ryker didn't do anything on D1. I don't think this what your reasoning for voting though, and his interactions with some people before that doesn't even catch my eye.

Are you voting him by gut reasoning?

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Vinyl why aren't you voting Soup?

Why aren't you voting at ALL right now?

 

[Vinylic.]

I don't even think I have to repeat myself, but **** it. Ryker can wait, Kary.

I'm still sticking with consideration before voting, but if that looks like crap, okay.

Vote: Soup

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Responding to that walll (possibly?) tonight.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Tonight it is.

This is an incredibly reckless (and flawed at that) method of playing mafia. No matter how you cut it, Vinyl is a special case when being evaluated. Holding him to some blanket standard of what is scummy and what is not is a good way to get burned.

And you're absolutely right, Vinyl could be scum. At the present time I'm inclined to believe he is not, but as I talked about earlier if he is there is ZERO percent chance that he slips under the radar forever. Not with this playerlist.

But that's not really answering your question. In a more broad sense, if the easy lynch is scum its because they've played really really poorly and left some blatant clues as to why they should be killed. Vinyl has not done anything outside of, to put it delicately, be Vinylesque. You can't push a lynch on someone for not being good at mafia, there has to be some substance behind it.

He's a special case but that doesn't mean you put him on a pedestal and evaluate every motion he takes as any different. I want you to ask yourself, what would you think of Vinyl. had it been any other player? You're giving him this weird leeway and tagging him as 'who he is.' Bolded, how does this category not fit for Vinyl.? I understand your notion of him not slipping under the radar, but why wait? Your point seems really moot and I would love to hear why you think he's town. There has been plenty of substance and my case is the substance behind it, I will give Vinyl. no special treatment and he will either sink or swim. So far, he has sunk to say.

You make it sound like I should treat everyone in the same way in every instance, and that is simply not a productive approach to finding scum unless everyone plays exactly the same. Of course you have to take a step back and ask 'okay is this Vinyl voting because he wants the lynch or is this Vinyl voting because he was told to'.

That ain't bias, its knowing how to approach people based on their history.

As for your case on Vinyl, I'll discuss that towards the end of this post since its a rather important point in my own case.

I understand your disposition but I am going to disagree. Town's objective is to lynch mafia, Mafia's objective is to be under the guise of town. All town want to lynch mafia. It is a common theme for any town and I would expect any townie trying to do so. You can look at Vinyl. and say that perhaps it won't be as clear as other townies, or their motives won't be the same, but you can also look at it and reassert that same statement I've made. How has Vinyl. done anything to help town? How has Vinyl. tried to hunt scum? I have not seen this, and Vinyl. is literally just voting me because I've gotten enough flak and he doesn't need to hide anymore. It's true, he's not a great player, I get that. I understand where you're coming from with your point and it's not a bad one, it's just that you need to consider it more objectively or you yourself will get burned because you lead to believe how they were acting was more important than what they were doing.

I've already discussed the concerns of bias, and I'm confused by the wording of the first bit of this. I've discussed the potential of Vinyl being both town or scum from your perspective as well as the direction I'd like to take upon your flip.

In regards to your 'fact' that you think Vinyl is scum, its a non-entity. Regardless of alignment of course you're going to maintain that you believe your own opinions and I think its silly that you've even brought it up here at all. And the fact of the matter is Vinyl's vote is not the scummiest thing in the world when you're talking about Vinyl. Vinyl's lack of answers is not the scummiest thing in the world when you're talking about Vinyl. I find it very hard to buy that you're so gung-ho over this lynch over so very little to work with, even if you do have trouble discerning between dumb and scum.

Read my statement again. I will pressure any player at any given moment If I dislike what they are doing. It is true that I am scumreading Vinyl., but you cannot say that I haven't tried to read him or change my opinion, he has openly ignored me and when asked for one simple read on you, He says nothing. Please tell me why a town would avoid me like this over some simple question, or please tell me why Vinyl. if he had a legitimate scumread on me, would only vote me after I get flak. It's true, I am gun-ho. I have no reason not to be, I will scream and shout and rant and rave until Vinyl. does something that I believe merits an unvote, or he responds sufficiently. I have no reason to doubt my scumread unless it is personally refuted or the player I am scumreading can prove me otherwise. Why should I? I'm not trying to say I'm arrogant, or that I don't listen to people, it's just that I don't buy statements like "It's just Vinyl." I am not trying to shut off discussion about this or just mindlessly tunnel him, I am completely open to a new direction of thought and reconsidering things, but so far nobody has given a sufficient argument and Vinyl. has done absolutely terrible responding to me. Tell me why this makes me scum again?

Soup, you're not happy with how Vinyl's play because he voted me for no reason, dodged your questions, and 'had a terrible response to pressure'. You believe he is scum for those reasons as well.

But you mention twice there that you're putting pressure on him. If the people reading this case take only one thing away, let it be this next part. Your push on Vinyl is not one to pressure his slot. You've asked no questions of relevance and made no attempts to solidify your read on him beyond the initial point of him voting for me without backing.

THESE are not the actions of someone trying to find scum. These are not the actions of someone who thinks they have already found scum either. This is someone who's found a lead that they think can lead to a lynch and is relentlessly pursuing it until something gives way, and THAT is why I want you dead toDay.

They are actions. I've presented legitimate argument and plenty of cases for Vinyl. to refute. I have asked him questions and given my push complete substance, if anything I am trying my damn near hardest to not make this just another tunnel. The point about the voting of you is moot and I've dropped it, a very long time ago actually. The point is that you think I'm scum just because I'm trying too hard to get Vinyl. lynched and that I haven't provided anything for it. This is wrong and I will tell you why you're wrong many times over until either one of us breaks from responding to each other or we come to a mutual agreement. I will try everything in power to convince players of lynching Vinyl., and I will keep presenting more arguments as I see fit.

 

[Ramen King]

Ryker what is Soup looking like to you?