Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Frihetsanka]

On a topic to talk about, what do we all think of ?

Both result-wise and theory-wise I think he's in almost the right spot right now. Most of those above him have better theory and results.

 

[Deleted member]

Both result-wise and theory-wise I think he's in almost the right spot right now. Most of those above him have better theory and results.

I think he's in the 40-35 spot in the meta, similar to his placing on the first 4BR tier list. Nothing less, nothing more. He's at least better than and when it comes to swordies.

Shulk has a lot of strong advantages, and his mains manage to do well whenever they show up at reasonably large events (Nicko, DarkWolf, Tremendo Dude, Kurage). His range, edgeguarding and spacing ability are very solid attributes, and the Arts do allow him to adapt to most situations well. I feel like Shulk's timeout potential hasn't been fully exploited, especially with how well he can stall in Jump Art or tank so many hits until living near to 170% with Shield Art. Having 50/50 isn't something to slouch on either.

He obviously has drawbacks that keep him from being a real threat, namely his deplorable MUs against high tiers () and the Arts in general making him a quite inconsistent character, and then there's his quite ****ty frame data and most of his moves being unsafe on block due to how laggy they are or having low shieldstun. These are huge fundamental issues at high levels of play, and Shulk usually has to significantly outplay his opponent against most characters relevant in the meta.

In short, in this year he's surprisingly grown a lot while last year his meta was stagnant for the most part despite all his potential talk. I'm interested as to where this character goes as the meta develops, but as long as the top tiers or characters with overwhelming grab games or frame data are around to ruin his day he'll pretty much flounder around bottom of mid or upper parts of low tier.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Well, would you look at that, Lucas main Mekos got second at a pretty stacked tournament, 3-0'ing Ally in the process. Hopefully people will stop ignoring Lucas's strengths and put him at least in mid tier like he deserves. If you need any other proof, watch Taiheita at Karisuma 6, Sumabato for THE BIG HOUSE, or at Super Smash Con this weekend.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, would you look at that, Lucas main Mekos got second at a pretty stacked tournament, 3-0'ing Ally in the process. Hopefully people will stop ignoring Lucas's strengths and put him at least in mid tier like he deserves. If you need any other proof, watch Taiheita at Karisuma 6, Sumabato for THE BIG HOUSE, or at Super Smash Con this weekend.

Online is irrelevant for offline play comparisons. Online lag = different game all together. The two modes have different tier lists and different MU charts.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Online is irrelevant for offline play comparisons. Online lag = different game all together. The two modes have different tier lists and different MU charts.

I'm not saying that this tournament was anything noteworthy, I just hope it opens up people's eyes to the real results that Lucas has gotten and probably will get this weekend and make them put him higher in their tier lists.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch either. We've had that song and dance with a number of characters and big tournament weeks.

"Everyone is going to see how good Greninja really is this weekend, iStudying showed up!" Etc.

Most people are aware that online and offline are completely different and will have the same reaction I did above: it means nothing. And then walk away.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch either. We've had that song and dance with a number of characters and big tournament weeks.

"Everyone is going to see how good Greninja really is this weekend, iStudying showed up!" Etc.

Most people are aware that online and offline are completely different and will have the same reaction I did above: it means nothing. And then walk away.

Again, I'm not saying that Road to Shine meant anything, I just hope it makes people aware of Lucas in general. They can then look to his real tournament results especially by Taiheita to see what Lucas is truly capable of.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And I'm saying nobody who wasn't aware of Lucas before is going to suddenly be curious because of Road to Shine. If they were curious they would have looked before back when Mekos and Taiheita initially started getting results. That and don't overly bank on Lucas getting results this weekend because that song and dance has happened a lot for many characters. More times than not ends with faceplants.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'm not even gonna argue with you and everyone who follows the stigma. Just keep blindly believing that Lucas is low tier and ignoring his strengths, and we'll see who faceplants in the end.

 

[Shollyboster]

I'm not even gonna argue with you and everyone who follows the stigma. Just keep blindly believing that Lucas is low tier and ignoring his strengths, and we'll see who faceplants in the end.

Jeez, dude. Calm down. The dude was only saying people would have recognized Lucas's potential earlier.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Jeez, dude. Calm down. The dude was only saying people would have recognized Lucas's potential earlier.

I guess all I'm saying is that if the majority had seen Lucas's representation and realized his potential, they would put him in upper mid tier, but they still haven't. I'm just surprised at how many people blindly follow the trend instead of actually taking a look at his theory and results for themselves and placing him based on that, which should put him well above the trend where he deserves.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Well, would you look at that, Lucas main Mekos got second at a pretty stacked tournament, 3-0'ing Ally in the process. Hopefully people will stop ignoring Lucas's strengths and put him at least in mid tier like he deserves. If you need any other proof, watch Taiheita at Karisuma 6, Sumabato for THE BIG HOUSE, or at Super Smash Con this weekend.

Sigh.

RTS was not THAT stacked first of all. Only like 3 ish notables other than Mekos. Now, I am someone that thinks Lucas is great, however your over reacting. So please, don't think this one win make his better than like, Bayonetta. That is all.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Sigh.

RTS was not THAT stacked first of all. Only like 3 ish notables other than Mekos. Now, I am someone that thinks Lucas is great, however your over reacting. So please, don't think this one win make his better than like, Bayonetta. That is all.

Did you even read any of my other responses? I never said RTS meant much, I just hope it opens up some people's eyes to his existence in the competitive scene. And I said UPPER MID TIER, which is nowhere close to Bayonetta, but instead around Luigi, Olimar, and DK.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Did you even read any of my other responses? I never said RTS meant much, I just hope it opens up some people's eyes to his existence in the competitive scene. And I said UPPER MID TIER, which is nowhere close to Bayonetta, but instead around Luigi, Olimar, and DK.

I actually was gonna mention I read the rest, but I did not know how to word it. Also im sure MANY people knew about Lucas because of Taheita prior, but that might of just been me haha

 

[Bowserboy3]

To be fair, doesn't show up at top level or majors, or when he does, he tends to drop out pretty quickly.

Characters like , and however, appear quite often at top level and majors, and all progress to near the final stages (Marth more so than the others even).

Maybe this is why people aren't actually ranking Lucas too high. Sure he's good at mid to high level, but how does he actually fare at the top level? Results aren't totally in the favour of that.

 

[Deleted member]

Lucas' big issue is his very linear zoning and struggling to find openings to KO. He has three kill throws but they're attached to a tether grab, which is much more committal than something like 's pivot/dashgrab, both of which are very safe. Combine that with a lack of autocancel aerials, average grounded mobility and a nair with a high SDI multiplier and you have somebody limited in their approach and combo options besides zair, which is a legitimately amazing move.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'm sorry for my rudeness yesterday. I still believe I made some solid points, I just didn't know how to express them well and then snapped back at anyone who disagreed, and I apologize for that.

Still, I want everyone to look at both sides of the argument, not just his weaknesses, and make a fair judgment based on that. Even if he's "bottom 15" or wherever, he's still viable enough to be "mid tier" in my eyes, and there are only a select few who truly aren't viable enough to be at least mid tier.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm sorry for my rudeness yesterday. I still believe I made some solid points, I just didn't know how to express them well and then snapped back at anyone who disagreed, and I apologize for that. Still, I want everyone to look at both sides of the argument, not just his weaknesses, and make a fair judgment based on that. Even if he's "bottom 15", he's still viable enough to be "mid tier" in my eyes, and there are only a select few who truly aren't viable enough to be at least mid tier.

I don't really think Lucas is bottom 15. Above I said that he doesn't show up at majors or top level like others, but that's not to completely disregard what he's done elsewhere. I can't remember the name, but there's a really good Japanese Lucas isn't there? He does do better than at least 15-20 characters in terms of results. His problems aren't even that severe anyway.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I don't really think Lucas is bottom 15. Above I said that he doesn't show up at majors or top level like others, but that's not to completely disregard what he's done elsewhere. I can't remember the name, but there's a really good Japanese Lucas isn't there? He does do better than at least 15-20 characters in terms of results. His problems aren't even that severe anyway.

That would be Taiheita, and he's gotten pretty good results in Japanese tournaments. Let's hope he shows off his talent at SSC!

 

[apparently fuz]

I'm not even gonna argue with you and everyone who follows the stigma. Just keep blindly believing that Lucas is low tier and ignoring his strengths, and we'll see who faceplants in the end.

Yeah, I think you need to stop working yourself over and caring about what other people think.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I think you need to stop working yourself over and caring about what other people think.

He already apologized. >.>

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Yeah, I have a condition which hinders my social skills. I should have realized I was going too far, but I didn't. :/

 

[Crystanium]

A reason a character like Lucas could appear better than he truly is could be partly due to his seldom use in tournaments. (I really don't know how common Lucas is.) Lack of experience could give people trouble.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Browny - When are we starting up again? Would soon after Smash Con be a good idea?

I also heard from ←/feel. that a new 4BR Tier List is coming soon. That could help us with our own placements, and give us more points for discussion.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Well, Taiheita has made it to top 24 in losers side (he 2-0'ed everyone except Nairo, who 2-0'ed him), but his first set in top 24 is against ZeRo (who was sent to losers by Lucario player Day). I'm hoping we'll see a huge upset tomorrow, and if not, keep in mind that he will have only lost to ZeRo and Nairo, which still says something about Lucas's viability.

 

[Bowserboy3]

With Smash Con finished, here's a list of which characters were in top 8 - might be useful for when we start back up again...

1) Liquid Nairo
2) dt | Dabuz
3) Mr.R
4) CLG VoiD
5) MVG ScAtt
5) Ally
7) TA | Fatality
7) Abadango


10 different characters there, and not a Diddy in sight! No real Cloud main either. Interesting.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

With Smash Con finished, here's a list of which characters were in top 8 - might be useful for when we start back up again...

1) Liquid Nairo
2) dt | Dabuz
3) Mr.R
4) CLG VoiD
5) MVG ScAtt
5) Ally
7) TA | Fatality
7) Abadango


10 different characters there, and not a Diddy in sight! No real Cloud main either. Interesting.

Since you added Cloud for Scatt and Bayonetta for Mr.R even though they did nothing, you should add Rosalina for Abadango who took Game 5 against Ryo.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Since you added Cloud for Scatt and Bayonetta for Mr.R even though they did nothing, you should add Rosalina for Abadango who took Game 5 against Ryo.

I just want to point out I copied that straight from the Smashboards Top 8 post, hence, why Rosalina is missing there. I'll put her on there now.

 

[Deleted member]

My predictions for the next CTL:

Significant rises


Small rise


Significant drops


Small drop

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm honestly not seeing any reason why should fall. If anything, she might drop a few places due to other characters rising, but she has no real reason to drop down tiers for example.

Please remember that there were 2 Samus players that got tied 49th at Smash Con. It's not really enough to warrant much of a rise as such (if any), but it's something notable when other characters didn't achieve something like this, like for example and, and even some higher tiered characters like only peaked at this placement.

I also come from the UK, where there are two Samus players in the top 10 of the overall UK Power Rankings, so I may be a little more opinionated than others (and I also use Samus, so there's that), but looking at things as a whole, I honestly don't see why she should drop at all. She's a lot more active in general than many characters around her.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So I got bored and was reading through super old posts, and I decided to post some here to just show how our meta has progressed and how people's opinions have changed.

Like @ShoriSmash said, I'm really looking forward to the Wii U Backroom's tier list whenever its first iteration is released. It'll be interesting to see what conclusions they come to about certain characters.

I think you placed Roy too low and he is atlesat b+ tier with the characcters in and below that. I think bowser should go slightly lower because although he just got a buff, well he JUST got a buff and no results yet\. Same for Lucas but overalll pretty good tier list.

waifus matter more than tier lists tbh

But fo'real, I saw no real issue with it. Marth is too high and Falco is too low, but those are the only things that bothered me.

Terrible frame data, general lack of safety in almost anything he does (which bites him hard, nothing he has is safe on shield unless he's using Buster), and due to his tall frame and lack of escape options he gets juggled pretty badly. His recovery is also poor, predictable and grants him little horizontal distance. Not to mention his MU spread is unimpressive, and he gets bodied by every top tier. Fox vs. Shulk is just outright sad lol

He's just not really a relevant character, and I can't name the last time Shulk has had any great results at a big tournament in several months, if ever.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Significant drops

Most of that list I agree with, but not this tier. Wario and Yoshi, maybe, but I don't see people moving Pac-Man and especially Ike down. EDIT: Fact check. Ike has been getting pretty good representation, especially with Ryo's performance at SSC. And Pac-Man has at least done some stuff recently, with Zage getting a decent placement in SSC. Move them both to "Small drop" and then I'll agree with the list.

 

[Deleted member]

Most of that list I agree with, but not this tier. Wario and Yoshi, maybe, but I don't see people moving Pac-Man and especially Ike down. Ike just got big results in SSC with Ryo getting 9th on a mostly Ike run, only using Corrin and Roy as counterpicks. And Pac-Man has at least done some stuff recently, with Zage getting a decent placement in SSC. Move Pac-Man to "Small drop" and remove Ike completely and then I'll agree with the list.

AFAIK, Ryo now mains . He used her for the majority of SSC, not Ike. He uses him and as secondaries.

Though, me saying Ike will significantly drop was a tad too drastic on my part. But he'll probably fall from upper-mid where he is now to just somewhere in lower parts of mid. has even proved himself to be a better character.

 

[Browny]

Browny - When are we starting up again? Would soon after Smash Con be a good idea?

I also heard from ←/feel. that a new 4BR Tier List is coming soon. That could help us with our own placements, and give us more points for discussion.

I expect a new 4BR tier list too and I didn't want to start this process (which usually takes like 3 months) if I expect a 4BR list to come out half way. Perhaps if one isn't out by say, October I could restart this then.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Most of that list I agree with, but not this tier. Wario and Yoshi, maybe, but I don't see people moving Pac-Man and especially Ike down. Ike just got big results in SSC with Ryo getting 9th on a mostly Ike run, only using Corrin and Roy as counterpicks. And Pac-Man has at least done some stuff recently, with Zage getting a decent placement in SSC. Move Pac-Man to "Small drop" and remove Ike completely and then I'll agree with the list.

Ryo went mainly Corrin and lost like every match with Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryo went mainly Corrin and lost like every match with Ike.

On the other hand, San is still winning his local tournaments and they're generally only about 5-10 entrances short of being recorded for Das Koopa's rankings. And there is his placement at GOML to take into account as well.

Ryo uses pretty much the whole FE cast outside of Robin and uses whoever he feels like at the time/based on the MU. Hence him busting out Roy to take out Mewtwo for example.

As for Ike dropping to lower mid/"Robin proving to be better", you should probably take a look at this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-598#post-21392296

That's for the major tournaments aka the ones people care about the most. Note the "0" by Robin's score and the lack of a "0" beside Ike's. Ike's also doing better than ROB, Falcon, Greninja, Luigi, and Pikachu at that level of play since 1.1.6.

Considering who's above him and who's below him for results at that level, I'd say his current position is pretty spot on. Marth and MegaMan will move above him obviously, Lucina may or may not some people tie her right behind Marth others don't so it makes it hard to tell. DK is an unknown to me: he has results at the top level but it was mostly near the start of 1.1.6. Beyond that, shouldn't be budging.

Other things of note: until this weekend Corrin had zero results at that level. In fact out of the FE cast only Ike and Marth did, with Marth being 10th weighted and 9th unweighted. DK is a lot higher than I expected, Ryu is a bit lower than I expected.

 

[Laken64]

Ryo went mainly Corrin and lost like every match with Ike.

Talking about Corrin's results at SSC, Ryo wasn't the only one (though he is the highest result if you don't count Cosmos 4th at LTC4 if that even counts) at SSC, both Ryuga and Frozen did well as stand alone Corrin mains at 17th place.

Small rise

Looking at this I can understand the rise of some characters like and maybe but I don't really get the rest mostly. (I'm unsure on ) What have they done recently to cause them to rise up in your opinion? (not trying to be harsh but just curious)

And about the FE cast if I was going to rate them by results it would be like this IMO:


/
/


Feel free to give your input/opinion/criticism on this if you wish.

 

[Deleted member]

Talking about Corrin's results at SSC, Ryo wasn't the only one (though he is the highest result if you don't count Cosmos 4th at LTC4 if that even counts) at SSC, both Ryuga and Frozen did well as stand alone Corrin mains at 17th place.


Looking at this I can understand the rise of some characters like and maybe but I don't really get the rest mostly. (I'm unsure on ) What have they done recently to cause them to rise up in your opinion? (not trying to be harsh but just curious)

And about the FE cast if I was going to rate them by results it would be like this IMO:


/
/


Feel free to give your input/opinion/criticism on this if you wish.

I'm glad to address your question.

right now is at top of tier 7, a placing I feel like is too low for him for the kind of results he can pull off (Momocon, KTAR XVIII). That, and for a superheavy he's functional and has a nice toolkit overall. He's only if slightly worse than when it comes to overall viability, but it's moreso due to him lacking a good spacing aerial like DK does or his great air mobility. LordMix, Dire, KingKong and HIKARU (who comains Bowser with ) tend to do very well with the character.

When it comes to I myself don't think he's very good, but with his counterpick potential and Regi putting in the work hard with him (17th place at EVO, 7th at Smash Factor 5), he'll probably rise up in most people's eyes even if I just think he's a very underwhelming character with just some real silly moves.

's performances at GOML, KTAR Saga, Smash Factor 5 were all pretty decent overall. Say what you want about him, but when you have the best grounded neutral in the game you'll always stay relevant in some way. Mac is a very volatile character, a reason as to why he's not a common presence, but he's been shown to be scary as hell in the right hands and can even overcome some of his worse MUs ()

Also, I would probably rank the FE characters like this:

> >(??) >>>

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Also, I would probably rank the FE characters like this:

> >(??) >>>

The current order of Lucina, Robin, and Ike is somewhat debatable, but the rest of the order (and the rest of your post) make sense.

 

[Frihetsanka]

My predictions for the next CTL:

is already #11, so I don't think he'll rise more than a few spots.
will likely rise a lot, yes. #27 is way too low for him.
I'm not convinced he will rise all that much. The characters above him are pretty good, which makes it hard for him to advance much.
should rise for sure. I voted for her to be higher before as well.
obviously. I'd be very surprise if he didn't end up top 15.

I agree with everyone in the "small rise" category, although I think Little Mac's rise should be a bit more than just "small". His results have been really solid. He seems to be likely a top 30-35 character now.

I think 's current placement is pretty accurate. Perhaps he'll drop a few slots, but he's still a pretty good character.
I don't think should drop at all. His MU spread is really good and his overall results are 3rd best in the game. He struggles somewhat at the absolute top level (read: He lacks a top 10 player) but I don't think it's the character as much as a lack of dedicated players. There are some really good Cloud players out there, but none as consistent as players like Void, Ally, ANTi, Nairo, Larry Lurr, Dabuz, Mr. R, or ZeRo. Majors and supermajors aren't the only tournaments that matter, anyway.

I think should rise a bit, not drop. His results indicate that he's potentially a top 15 character.