Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[ShadowGuy1]

So pretty much, I got bored, and I got a shiny new laptop, so I thought lets break it in! I decided to compile the average scoring of each character, minus the dlc for a reason i will mention in a bit, and compose a tier list out of those scorings. The DLC characters are not going to be included because they were not in the very first tier list, and there averages would average a lot lower than they would be if they were in the first list. First, ill be listing the raw numbers like this - Bowser 1st, 2nd, 3rd. The place the character was on the first tier list will be the 1st out of three, then the second one is the second, and so on. Also no Miis for now, since I am unsure about how the 1st tier list ruled them.

- 30th, 43rd, 37th
- 42nd, 34th, 47th
- 10th, 12th, 14th
- 49th, 40th, 48th
- 44th, 41st, 49th
- 33rd, 20th, 15th
- 1st, 7th, 1st
- 41st, 22nd, 25th
- 45th, 38th, 40th
- 32nd, 36th, 43rd
- 39th, 28th, 44th
- 12th, 8th, 7th
- 36th, 48th, 50th
- 18th, 25th, 12th
- 29th, 15th, 20th
- 31st, 44th, 52nd
- 25th, 31st, 35th
- 40th, 37th, 33rd
- 27th, 29th, 38th
- 11th, 23rd, 18th
- 37th, 39th, 31st
- 9th, 16th, 21st
- 13th, 5th, 5th
- 35th, 30th, 22nd
- 19th, 27th, 23rd
- 34th, 10th, 9th
- 48th, 35th, 41st
- 5th, 9th, 10th
- 23rd, 24th, 30th
- 28th, 19th, 28th
- 47th, 42nd, 32nd
- 16th, 18th, 27th
- 3rd, 3rd, 11th
- 24th, 21st, 16th
- 21st, 17th, 17th
- 22nd, 33rd, 32nd
- 7th, 4th, 3rd
- 45th, 47th, 34th
- 2nd, 1st, 2nd
- 17th, 31st, 42nd
- 4th, 5th, 6th
- 26th, 26th, 13th
- 14th, 13th, 8th
- 20th, 14th, 29th
- 46th, 32nd, 33rd
- 6th, 11th, 19th
- 38th, 49th, 51st
- 8th, 2nd, 4th

Now its time to compile the average of all these scorings!
- 36.6
- 41
- 12
- 45.6
- 44.6
- 22.6
- 3
- 30.3
- 41
- 37
- 37
- 9
- 44.6
- 18.3
- 21.3
- 42.3
- 30.3
- 36.6
- 31.3
- 17.3
- 35.6
- 15.3
- 7.6
- 29
- 23
- 17.6
- 41.3
- 8
- 25.6
- 25
- 33.6
- 20.3
- 5.6
- 20.3
- 18.3
- 29.3
- 4.6
- 42
- 1.6
- 30
- 5
- 21.6
- 11.6
- 21
- 37
- 12
- 46
- 4.6


Now to form the tier list!

Top Tier:
High Tier:
Mid Tier:
Low Tier:
Bottom Tier:

 

[zLantern]

Roy +1
Falco +1
Palutena +1
Robin +1
Lucas +1

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Roy +1
Falco +1
Palutena +1
Robin +1
Lucas +1

The new list (for some reason) hasn't started yet. Though, on that topic, now that Shine is completed, we have even more reason to start the list, considering that the next big tournament isn't for a good while.

 

[Deleted member]

could be rising out of bottom 5 for the new list, imo.

 

[Frihetsanka]

How many tiers do you guys want? I'd prefer something like this:

Top tier
High tier
High-mid tier
Mid tier
Low-mid tier
Low tier

Six tiers. Nice and clean. Most tiers would have around 10 characters, although some would have fewer and others would have more.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I would honestly add a seventh tier to reduce the number of characters in each tier, but it would NOT be bottom tier, because I don't think that any of the characters in this game deserve to be that low. Rather, it would be an Upper High tier, which would have characters that have done major things but aren't quite good enough to be top tier, like Bayonetta and Mewtwo.

 

[Wintermelon43]

............characters that have done major things but aren't quite good enough to be top tier...................Mewtwo.

.......What? Abadango's great results along with good results from players such as Rich Brown, Wadi, and Blue, don't count as major things that make them top tier? And how about his good matchup spread?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Yet again...

.......What? Abadango's great results along with good results from players such as Rich Brown, Wadi, and Blue, don't count as major things that make them top tier? And how about his good matchup spread?

.
.
.

... Secondaries: ... ...

But seriously, him being so big and light makes him a punching bag in many cases, which combined with his weirdly small and laggy grab prevents him from being in top tier. He still is a very good character, don't get me wrong, but not top-tier good.

 

[Deleted member]

Yet again...


.
.
.


But seriously, him being so big and light makes him a punching bag in many cases, which combined with his weirdly small and laggy grab prevents him from being in top tier. He still is a very good character, don't get me wrong, but not top-tier good.

Yes, him being a Mewtwo secondary makes his statement totally less valid.

We're also going to forget that Abadango and Rich Brown usually make top 32 at every single major they go to, with Aba being able to place 9th or higher consistently. The character doesn't really lose any matchups particularly hard besides , he's pretty much the main roadblock to making Mewtwo solo-viable.

Also Mewtwo's dash grab is pretty decent thanks to his amazing mobility, and his pivot grab has decent range as well. I don't see how him having an eh grab negates his amazing neutral or the threat of moves like fair, Shadow Ball, dtilt or his amazing recovery and edgeguarding capabilities.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Mewtwo is top tier in the 4BR tier list as well. You don't need to have Mewtwo as a main or secondary in order to believe that Mewtwo is top tier. I think Mewtwo is top tier as well. I'd say Mewtwo should be somewhere around #8-10.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I guess in retrospect I should have noted that my top tier is pretty small compared to most people's. I understand that he's a serious threat and probably top 10, but in my tier lists only the top 4 or 5 characters are truly "top tier" by having almost flawless theories as well as tons of representation and consistent high results. I put Mewtwo as an upper high tier mostly because he still has the glass cannon element in his gameplay that can really hurt him, which is in itself a bigger weakness than the weaknesses of the characters I put as top tier.

 

[Bowserboy3]

On the topic of how many tiers we'd like to see, I personally think that it's far easier to separate characters more accurately when there are more tiers. You can group characters into a similar area and then you have more leeway to explain "Well X has more results than Y, so he should be a little higher", and you can move them up/around without the changes being too drastic (like moving a character from low tier to mid tier for example, when all they really need is a slight nudge. Basically, what I am trying to get at, is it's far harder to fine tune a tier list with a small amount of tiers.

I personally like how the 4BR tier list has lots of tiers, and it's something like I've always used. It's got enough tiers for there to be fine-tuning, and there aren't an over-abundance of tiers either.

I use something like this:

Top (+)
Top (-)
High (+)
High (-)
Mid (+)
Mid (-)
Low (+)
Low (-)
Bottom

(+ means higher and - means lower)

Basically, this allows us to easily order characters more. Taking the conversations above about Mewtwo as an example, he's clearly top tier. However, is he top tier like the likes of Sheik, Diddy, Mario etc, all of whom commonly place within the top 5 of tournaments? I don't think so. As such, he would be placed in the (-) area of the Top Tier, denoting that he is indeed a Top Tier, but is not grouped exactly with characters that are clearly top tier.

Lets do another example that might sway more people's opinions. Marth is a very good character these days, and for the sake of argument, lets say he's somewhere in the High Tier (+). When placing Marth, we have to think of Lucina, and despite what the 4BR's tier list says, people still seem to think that Lucina is still very close to Marth. With this tier ordering, we can easily place Lucina in the High Tier (-), essentially meaning that she isn't exactly a whole tier away from Marth (which is where people get annoyed), but that she's theoretically in the same tier range, just lower than him for one reason or another (I won't explain why, now's not the time). It works for everyone, in that Lucina players can vote her in the same range as Marth, and people who don't think she's exactly next to him can place her in a tier lower than him, while still being theoretically in the same tier range. It's a lot easier to order and arrange than moving individual placements.

 

[Frihetsanka]

On the topic of how many tiers we'd like to see, I personally think that it's far easier to separate characters more accurately when there are more tiers. You can group characters into a similar area and then you have more leeway to explain "Well X has more results than Y, so he should be a little higher", and you can move them up/around without the changes being too drastic (like moving a character from low tier to mid tier for example, when all they really need is a slight nudge. Basically, what I am trying to get at, is it's far harder to fine tune a tier list with a small amount of tiers.

[...]

Top (+)
Top (-)
High (+)
High (-)
Mid (+)
Mid (-)
Low (+)
Low (-)
Bottom

I agree with you that if characters weren't ordered within tiers it would be a good idea to have fewer tiers. However, since they are ordered within tiers there's much less need to have more tiers. You could put, say, Marth at the top of high tier and Lucario at the bottom, for instance. I think that having too many tiers makes it hard to give a description of how strong the characters in the tier are, and what they can do, and such. Having too few tiers would be problematic as well, though. I think somewhere around 6-8 is ideal for Smash 4.

I don't like your tier descriptions though. Having two top tiers is fine, since there are clear differences between, say, Diddy Kong and Bayonetta. Having two high tiers is more questionable, although I could see having characters like Marth, Mega Man, and Meta Knight in the higher one and characters like Ness, Lucario, and Greninja in the other one. I think mid tier actually needs three tiers, since there are so many characters that fall somewhere into mid-tier. I'd say there are 25-30 characters in some sort of "mid tier", around half of the roster. I think having two low-tiers and one bottom tier is too much. At this point in time, I question the need to even have a bottom tier. Yes, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Zelda have some serious flaws, but they do have the occasional results and can do reasonably well. Also, many characters that were traditionally seen as "low tier" have proven themselves and should probably be low-mid instead, or maybe even mid. Characters like Palutena, Shulk (who ZeRo put in "upper"), Roy, even Charizard.

So, a new tier list could look like this:

Top + (name pending, around 4-6 characters)
Top - (name pending, around 4-6 characters)
High (around 9-13 characters)
High-Mid (around (9-13 characters)
Mid (around 7-10 characters)
Low-Mid (around 7-12 characters)
Low (around 3-12 characters)

I'm still not really sure that there's a need to divide top into two tiers. If, say, Bayonetta is #10 and Diddy Kong is #1, it's pretty clear who is better anyway.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I agree with you that if characters weren't ordered within tiers it would be a good idea to have fewer tiers. However, since they are ordered within tiers there's much less need to have more tiers. You could put, say, Marth at the top of high tier and Lucario at the bottom, for instance. I think that having too many tiers makes it hard to give a description of how strong the characters in the tier are, and what they can do, and such. Having too few tiers would be problematic as well, though. I think somewhere around 6-8 is ideal for Smash 4.

I don't like your tier descriptions though. Having two top tiers is fine, since there are clear differences between, say, Diddy Kong and Bayonetta. Having two high tiers is more questionable, although I could see having characters like Marth, Mega Man, and Meta Knight in the higher one and characters like Ness, Lucario, and Greninja in the other one. I think mid tier actually needs three tiers, since there are so many characters that fall somewhere into mid-tier. I'd say there are 25-30 characters in some sort of "mid tier", around half of the roster. I think having two low-tiers and one bottom tier is too much. At this point in time, I question the need to even have a bottom tier. Yes, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Zelda have some serious flaws, but they do have the occasional results and can do reasonably well. Also, many characters that were traditionally seen as "low tier" have proven themselves and should probably be low-mid instead, or maybe even mid. Characters like Palutena, Shulk (who ZeRo put in "upper"), Roy, even Charizard.

So, a new tier list could look like this:

Top + (name pending, around 4-6 characters)
Top - (name pending, around 4-6 characters)
High (around 9-13 characters)
High-Mid (around (9-13 characters)
Mid (around 7-10 characters)
Low-Mid (around 7-12 characters)
Low (around 3-12 characters)

I'm still not really sure that there's a need to divide top into two tiers. If, say, Bayonetta is #10 and Diddy Kong is #1, it's pretty clear who is better anyway.

The 4BR has the same amount of tiers, just for example. S and A are Top, B and C are High, D and E are Mid, F and G are Low and H is the bottom tier. It's not uncommon for tier lists to have high and low and high sections of a tier, and there's a relatively simple explanation for this. The reason why there are a high and low top tier, for example, is while all the characters within that specific range can all theoretically have the best shot at winning tournaments, have similar certain characters have better qualities that make them a little better. In turn, you can't rank them lower into the high tier, because they are noticeably better than those characters too. Sure, you can say "why bother", but it's mainly for visual pleasure, as well as ease of ordering.

For example, lets take Fox and ZSS on the 4BR Tier List, Fox at the bottom of the S tier, and ZSS at the top of the A tier. S and A tier are considered both Top Tier, but why have they been separated? Let's look into the characters a bit.

Both characters are actually relatively similar on paper; both have great mobility, both have great combo games, both with plenty of setups into their combos, both are fastfallers and are light, and have both been proven on many occasion to win tournaments, and place within the top 5 of top level tournament play.

However, there is a notable difference that seperates these two, and it's their relative risk, and disadvantage state. In order to use ZSS correctly, you must effectively space a fair amount of her moves in the neutral in order for them to be effective. Nair and Zair are two examples. Fox doesn't have this problem, and his neutral is actually a whole lot safer and easier to use, due to his quicker, low lag, low committal options in Utilt, Bair and Ftilt. What's more, ZSS's disadvantage state is a lot bigger/easier to exploit than Fox's. Both characters get combo'd relatively easy, but that's not the area I am going into. ZSS relies on her grab a lot for some of her most deadly setups. Should ZSS miss a grab, she is left wide open, somewhere Fox does not have to worry about, and actually gets his reward from some of his spacing/neutral tools. In effect, ZSS is also much harder to play consistently than Fox, which separates them in the top tier. Both characters are certainly top tier, but this is an example of how we can group characters together even further in specific ranges, once again, going back to my point of it being far easier to fine tune a tier list with more tiers.

I also still disagree with your opinion on the bottom tier; we still need one. Yes, while characters such as Ganondorf and Jigglypuff can get results on occasion, it all depends on each tournament, and by that I mean that it depends on who they encounter in tournament. These characters have some of the most abysmal matchups in the entire game (Ganon v Sheik/virtually any character with a usable projectile zoning game, Puff v Cloud/anybody with a disjoint etc). If these characters don't encounter any of these bad matchups, then yes, they still do stand a chance, but the reason they are considered bottom tier, is because characters that are considered a little higher in low tier don't have these abysmal flaws, such as Doc and Roy, or have a notable niche against certain characters, which the bottom tiers lack. What I am effectively trying to say, is that yes, while Ganon, Puff, Zelda etc can occasionally get results, like Roy, Falco etc, they do not have as severe flaws, or just don't have a reason to be used over another similar character. Theoretically, they aren't that different to them, but the differences are noticeable.

I also want to point out that Bottom Tier is by no means as bad as it is in comparison to past games. The characters are still usable. Lets presend tiers are ordered in numerical value, with 10 being best, and 1 being worst. As an example, Brawl's best character, Meta Knight, would clearly be a 10, and Brawl's worst character, Ganon, would be a 1 or a 2, no doubt. Let's put that spin on Smash 4. Because of the overall balance of the game, the best character, Diddy, could be considered perhaps only a 9, while the worst characters, such as Ganon, Zelda and Puff, could be considered at 4 or a 3.5. Bottom tier in this game is far more viable than past bottom tiers, and it's thanks to the overall game balance.

As a final point, I want to stress that there should be no Jigglypuff tier. NO character in this game is flawed enough to be in a tier of their own, even Jigglypuff.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The 4BR has the same amount of tiers, just for example. S and A are Top, B and C are High, D and E are Mid, F and G are Low and H is the bottom tier. It's not uncommon for tier lists to have high and low and high sections of a tier, and there's a relatively simple explanation for this.

I'm not a fan of how the 4BR list does it either, and I made a suggestion (here) on how to order it. For one thing, I don't think the characters in their F tier are bad enough to be considered low tier, I think they're low-mid tier (and some might even be mid tier).

In effect, ZSS is also much harder to play consistently than Fox, which separates them in the top tier. Both characters are certainly top tier, but this is an example of how we can group characters together even further in specific ranges, once again, going back to my point of it being far easier to fine tune a tier list with more tiers.

I'm not strongly opposed to splitting top tier into two, although people seem to have wildly different opinions on which characters should be in the higher end of top tier (aside from Diddy and Sheik) and lower end of top tier (aside from Bayonetta). Is Cloud top 5? Sonic? Mario? Fox? Mewtwo? Zero Suit Samus? Rosalina & Luma? I've seen people make arguments for every single one of these characters. I've also seen people (notably ZeRo) argue that Ryu is top 5. So that's 10 characters who are potentially top 5. Perhaps people will start to agree on top 5 more over time, but for now it's very volatile, so maybe it would be better to just keep them all in one tier.

I also still disagree with your opinion on the bottom tier; we still need one. [...]

I also want to point out that Bottom Tier is by no means as bad as it is in comparison to past games. The characters are still usable. Lets presend tiers are ordered in numerical value, with 10 being best, and 1 being worst. As an example, Brawl's best character, Meta Knight, would clearly be a 10, and Brawl's worst character, Ganon, would be a 1 or a 2, no doubt. Let's put that spin on Smash 4. Because of the overall balance of the game, the best character, Diddy, could be considered perhaps only a 9, while the worst characters, such as Ganon, Zelda and Puff, could be considered at 4 or a 3.5. Bottom tier in this game is far more viable than past bottom tiers, and it's thanks to the overall game balance.

The last point is my main argument against a bottom tier. It's mostly a matter of semantics. Yes, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Zelda are likely the worst characters in the game, but they're not nearly as bad as the worst characters in Brawl or Melee. You know this and I know this, but people who are new to competitive Smash use this tier list as a resource, and labeling those characters as "bottom tier" is needlessly stigmatising. Yes, Jigglypuff is probably the worst character in the game, but she's not that bad. Thus, putting her last in low tier would make her seem a bit less bad than most others.

I don't think low tier really should have that many characters, actually. Many of the so called low-tier characters are stronger than people give them credit for.

The characters both ZeRo and 4BR put in low tier and bottom tier: Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, Zelda, Bowser Jr., Link, King Dedede, Little Mac, Samus. That's 8 characters. Link should not be low-tier, however, since he's been getting some pretty good results these past few months. The best Little Mac player, Sol, rates Little Mac as #30, and Little Mac's results have not been bad either, so he shouldn't be low tier either. King Dedede's got some decent results and I could see him being low-mid tier actually, although he might be low tier still.

Low tier:
Bottom tier:


Or:

Low tier:

I prefer the second option. I think Zelda is probably closer to Bowser Jr. power than Ganondorf power anyway, and having just two characters in bottom tier is messy, especially since Ganondorf is significantly better compared to in Brawl, especially after patches.

You could argue that more characters should be in low tier, of course. ZeRo didn't have many in low tier though, and I think the game is balanced enough to put more characters into low-mid rather than low. It's mostly semantics, but low-mid sounds much better than low, and many characters are decent enough to qualify for low-mid.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Frihetsanka , the fact that you put Samus as one of the lowest characters in the game triggers me, so I'm gonna leave it here... xD

However, I know we are both strongly against a "Jigglypuff Tier". I don't believe it should exist, and I am glad the 4BR Tier List doesn't put her in her own tier.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Frihetsanka , the fact that you put Samus as one of the lowest characters in the game triggers me, so I'm gonna leave it here... xD

Blame ZeRo and 4BR for putting her in low tier. I think she might be low-mid tier, but then low tier would just be 5 characters. Which helps prove my point that there really aren't that many bad characters in Smash 4, and even the low tiers aren't awful.

 

[Deleted member]

so, when is this restarted?

 

[Zerp]

so, when is this restarted?

Hopefully soon...

Anyways, hey, Browny , apologies if my tagging bothers you, but any word on when we'll start? This week, the next week, the one after that?


Also, ZeRo made a new Tier List:

I personally think there's quite a few big flaws here, mainly Diddy Kong and Ryu's placements, (there's a lot of other things I disagree with as well) but what do you guys think of it?

 

[Tizio Random]

ZeRo's tier list isn't bad in my opinion and has some agreeable ideas. But I can't understand why he rides the "potential train" so hard even when talking about characters in top tier with tangible datas you can look.

Bottom tiers and low tiers are good but there are some things I don't agree like is better than . Middle tier is okay, I guess. Upper tier is also okay but some character could make it in high tier (is incredibly underrated in that tier list IMHO). High tier would be perfect if and/were in there.
And than top tier... I think are the top three characters right now. is not #1 by any means (she's 4th at max), is not even top 10, let alone third best.

 

[Browny]

On the topic of how many tiers we'd like to see, I personally think that it's far easier to separate characters more accurately when there are more tiers. You can group characters into a similar area and then you have more leeway to explain "Well X has more results than Y, so he should be a little higher", and you can move them up/around without the changes being too drastic (like moving a character from low tier to mid tier for example, when all they really need is a slight nudge. Basically, what I am trying to get at, is it's far harder to fine tune a tier list with a small amount of tiers.

I personally like how the 4BR tier list has lots of tiers, and it's something like I've always used. It's got enough tiers for there to be fine-tuning, and there aren't an over-abundance of tiers either.

I use something like this:

Top (+)
Top (-)
High (+)
High (-)
Mid (+)
Mid (-)
Low (+)
Low (-)
Bottom

(+ means higher and - means lower)

Basically, this allows us to easily order characters more. Taking the conversations above about Mewtwo as an example, he's clearly top tier. However, is he top tier like the likes of Sheik, Diddy, Mario etc, all of whom commonly place within the top 5 of tournaments? I don't think so. As such, he would be placed in the (-) area of the Top Tier, denoting that he is indeed a Top Tier, but is not grouped exactly with characters that are clearly top tier.

Lets do another example that might sway more people's opinions. Marth is a very good character these days, and for the sake of argument, lets say he's somewhere in the High Tier (+). When placing Marth, we have to think of Lucina, and despite what the 4BR's tier list says, people still seem to think that Lucina is still very close to Marth. With this tier ordering, we can easily place Lucina in the High Tier (-), essentially meaning that she isn't exactly a whole tier away from Marth (which is where people get annoyed), but that she's theoretically in the same tier range, just lower than him for one reason or another (I won't explain why, now's not the time). It works for everyone, in that Lucina players can vote her in the same range as Marth, and people who don't think she's exactly next to him can place her in a tier lower than him, while still being theoretically in the same tier range. It's a lot easier to order and arrange than moving individual placements.

TBH I'm the opposite

I think theres at most 4 tiers in this game

The 'obviously a level above the rest' tier, the solo viable which cuts off around Bayo exactly the same as the 4BR tier list (which I think is really the best tier list any smash back room has ever made). Its not perfect but almost all other tier lists are outrageously biased by top players choosing to main certain high tiers over others. So 11 characters.

I think the next tier should be considered high tier which is reserved for characters that have proven themselves consistently at a high level across the world with multiple mains. Around 14 characters. This would stretch from Pikachu down to Peach.

Mid tier for the characters that have good results but poor representation. Little mac, pacman, wario, DHD are prime candidates. About 14 or so characters.

And the rest is low tier.

I think dividing it into more tiers is making the game seem imbalanced and is actually a residual effect from Melee and brawl both being really unbalanced. Last time I looked the official PM 3.6 tier list only had 4 tiers? This game is too evenly spread to have anywhere near 8 tiers.

@ Everyone else I'm still deciding whether I should continue this or hand over the project to someone else. I'm not in a rush to restart it honestly because normally when I do this its because I'm so mad at the BBR for being utterly hopeless at anything. I actually applied to get in this time to fix it lol.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hopefully soon...

Anyways, hey, Browny , apologies if my tagging bothers you, but any word on when we'll start? This week, the next week, the one after that?


Also, ZeRo made a new Tier List:

I personally think there's quite a few big flaws here, mainly Diddy Kong and Ryu's placements, (there's a lot of other things I disagree with as well) but what do you guys think of it?

Honestly its a pretty large mess.

The majority of Top Tier's ordering you toss out and redo. Get Lucario and Marth out of there, with Lucario dropping to Upper.

Upper and Middle are also just giant messes. Drop Roy and Falco out of there, switch Shulk and Ike, and then reorganize both of those tiers by a large margin.

And that's before getting nitpicky about specifics. But you gotta do that much work at least if you want to keep 6 tiers. If you go to the more normal 5 tiers, you got even more shuffling to do.

 

[vertime]

Also, ZeRo made a new Tier List:

I personally think there's quite a few big flaws here, mainly Diddy Kong and Ryu's placements, (there's a lot of other things I disagree with as well) but what do you guys think of it?

Well here's a few
Firstly: LUCARIO WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING ALL THE WAY UP THERE GEDDAFEKOUTTATHERE
Secondly: Ryu, while being potentially the strongest in game character, you'd have to be a tech god with the fingers of jesus to use his full potential. Nobody is finger jesus so lets switch around Diddy and Ryu because Diddy is a lot easier.
Thirdly: SHULK YOU **** GET OUTTA THERE YOU'RE LIKE 40TH. I'M NOT FEELING THAT PLACEMENT.
Fourthly: Uh, judges? Can we get a ruling on Charizard being higher than Link, Samus, Little Mac, Roy, Wario, Duck Hunt, Kirby, Falco and Ike? Oh what's that? That's total horseshi- I thought so.
Finally: Sonic, come on now, get out of second, spindash doesn't carry your blue backside that high.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I can at least somewhat understand and appreciate Lucario's placement in top tier. People seem to be forgetting that Lucario has recently been very common in top level play. Everything ZeRo said in his video were fair points about him too; Up Throw to Uair at 40%-ish is true and kills. Basically, the fact that Lucario is NEVER out of the match until it's over, instantly makes him a threat, especially at top level where you basically have to respect a high aura Lucario, or you will get punished, or at worst, lose your stock.

That's another thing; Lucario with high aura demands instant respect, and forces the opponent to change their gameplan. You can't just recklessly get close to him, or you will get eaten alive. Lucario with high aura is technically the same as when a character with a chargeable projectile has it charged to max; you have to respect them while they have the looming threat of it. But, oh, what's this? Lucario also has a chargeable projectile like what I am referring to... neat, huh?

Lucario has combos, Lucario has power, Lucario has setups. Lucario's traits and stats aren't really harmful either, as in he has average stats that don't hinder him in any real way. He has the power to turn any troublesome matchup straight into an advantage, and that's something very few characters actually have (Marth is another example, with his tippers. Ironically, ZeRo also put him in the same tier as Lucario...).

I think people need to at least be a little more open minded and think "actually, I can at least see the reasoning behind this, I never thought of it like this". I'm not saying you should straight up agree with things like this if you don't, but simply saying along the lines of "My opinion is vastly different, this is clearly wrong" isn't the way to go about things. You are blocking out lots of potential reasons to improve and expand your own knowledge.

plus Lucario is one of Cynthia's Pokémon yay

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I will agree that Ryu and Charizard are certainly too high, Shulk is a little bit high for the moment, and Diddy Kong is certainly too low. Bowserboy3 already explained why Lucario deserves that spot, so I'm going to explain Sonic:


There are tons of different players getting top 8 results with him: KEN, sometimes Komorikiri, 6WX, Wrath, SuperGirlKels, StaticMa--I mean, Spark, Wonf, Craftis, Camalange, and Ixis Naugus, just to name several; and specifically KEN won Umebura S.A.T. with Sonic while only losing two games in the whole tournament, 3-0'ing Nairo and later 3-1'ing and 3-0'ing Dabuz.

His crazy high representation and great results just go to show how good his theory is: His neutral is threatening and hard to predict because Spin Dash is fast and yet you can cancel it. He racks damage like crazy, both with Spin Dash setups and combos and traps from U-throw. He also has very solid kill options in F-smash, B-air, U-air, three of his throws, and occasionally U-smash and F-air, all of which can be set up from a trap, an edgeguard, or simply Spin Dash pressure.

His recovery is quite flexible, as Spin Dash is usable before double jump, and you can air dodge or attack after using Spring. Spring can also edgeguard or gimp, or set up for an U-air if you trap the opponent. He also has an average weight and fall speed as well as an amazing escape option in Spring, so his survivability is decent and he isn't susceptible to many character-specific combos.

Really the only thing keeping him down is his reliance on Spin Dash to approach, but as I mentioned earlier, the fact that you can cancel it and it moves so fast makes it very hard to correctly predict, and it can set up for a high-damaging combo or even a kill if you incorrectly predict its movement.

He may not be second place per se, but I and many others think he is clearly in the upper end of the top tier.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I will agree that Ryu and Charizard are certainly too high, Shulk is a little bit high for the moment, and Diddy Kong is certainly too low. Bowserboy3 already explained why Lucario deserves that spot, so I'm going to explain Sonic:


There are tons of different players getting top 8 results with him: KEN, formerly Komorikiri, 6WX, Wrath, SuperGirlKels, StaticMa--I mean, Spark, Wonf, Craftis, and Camalange just to name several; and specifically KEN won Umebura S.A.T. with Sonic while only losing two games in the whole tournament, 3-0'ing Nairo and later 3-1'ing and 3-0'ing Dabuz.

His crazy high representation and great results just go to show how good his theory is: His neutral is threatening and hard to predict because Spin Dash is fast and yet you can cancel it. He racks damage like crazy, both with Spin Dash setups and combos and traps from U-throw. He also has very solid kill options in F-smash, B-air, U-air, three of his throws, and occasionally U-smash and F-air, all of which can be set up from a trap, an edgeguard, or simply Spin Dash pressure.

His recovery is quite flexible, as Spin Dash is usable before double jump, and you can air dodge or attack after using Spring. Spring can also edgeguard or gimp, or set up for an U-air if you trap the opponent. He also has an average weight and fall speed, so his survivability is decent and he isn't susceptible to many character-specific combos.

Really the only thing keeping him down is his reliance on Spin Dash to approach, but as I mentioned earlier, the fact that you can cancel it and it moves so fast makes it very hard to correctly predict, and it can set up for a high-damaging combo or even a kill if you incorrectly predict its movement.

He may not be second place per se, but I and many others think he is clearly in the upper end of the top tier, in my eyes third place.

Komo still uses Sonic quite often, I think more than his Cloud

 

[Bowserboy3]

This is interesting.

Abadango's Top 24 Characters: https://twitter.com/Abadango_/status/773772665731416064

-
-,,
-,,,
-,,,
-,,,,
-,,,,,,

Cry your heart out Wintermelon43 .

 

[Deleted member]

Bayonetta being top 5 is something I can absolutely agree with.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I think we've come out of that dark period of "Bayonetta's nerfs ruined her, she's mid tier". It's quite clear that Bayonetta's main strengths are still prominent, such as her great off stage game, incredible recovery, and damaging combo game. Her neutral can be up for debate, but it certainly gets the job done, and her reward for winning neutral is of course fantastic.

Pink Fresh and Salem winning tournaments with solo Bayonetta, knocking out major threats like Larry, ZeRo and Nairo for example, is not something we should be be forgetting either. Dabuz can't win a tournament with Rosalina for example, let alone solo her.

(though I am still rooting for you Dabuz!)

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Bayo is not top 5 in that list, she's top 8. Chars within sections are not ordered

EDIT: I guess Apex 2016 and WTFox 2 are not tournaments then. Shame Dabuz won things that are not tournaments!

 

[Wintermelon43]

This is interesting.

Abadango's Top 24 Characters: https://twitter.com/Abadango_/status/773772665731416064

-
-,,
-,,,
-,,,
-,,,,
-,,,,,,

Cry your heart out Wintermelon43 .

I know Japan uses results as a big factor in tier lists, but why are Marth and Corrin up there? Doesn't Marth just have Fuwa and Corrin just have YOC?

I doubt Bayonetta is top 5 as well.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Bayonetta being top 5 is something I can absolutely agree with.

Is she better than Rosalina & Luma, Mario, and Fox though? That's the thing about top 5, in order to be top 5, a character would have to be stronger than almost every character in the game.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I know Japan uses results as a big factor in tier lists, but why are Marth and Corrin up there? Doesn't Marth just have Fuwa and Corrin just have YOC?

I doubt Bayonetta is top 5 as well.

YOC however has won pretty big Japanese tournaments. Also note Abadango goes to US tournaments as well, so his opinions are most liked mixed between the regions.

 

[Wintermelon43]

YOC however has won pretty big Japanese tournaments. Also note Abadango goes to US tournaments as well, so his opinions are most liked mixed between the regions.

I've been told that YOC isn't that good and mostly gets lucky so...... It really doesn't mean much.

Also, America thinks Mega Man is top 15 as well, so it doesn't make sense for him not to be in top 15

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I've been told that YOC isn't that good and mostly gets lucky so...... It really doesn't mean much.

Also, America thinks Mega Man is top 15 as well, so it doesn't make sense for him not to be in top 15

...

Who has said YOC is not good lmao. He's either the, of one of the, best Corrins lmao(inb4 you call all Corrins bad) How did he get lucky? I hate that term in smash, lucky, especially in smash 4. Braxket Luck in Japan is not as bad as major as it is in America.. ( i apologize if that was hard to read. I can include grammar when writing on phone lol)

 

[Wintermelon43]

...

Who has said YOC is not good lmao. He's either the, of one of the, best Corrins lmao(inb4 you call all Corrins bad) How did he get lucky? I hate that term in smash, lucky, especially in smash 4. Braxket Luck in Japan is not as bad as major as it is in America.. ( i apologize if that was hard to read. I can include grammar when writing on phone lol)

I don't who by name, but almost all Corrins say "Nah, YOC isn't really a notable Corrin, he just gets lucky to get good placements". Supposdly he makes a ton of mistakes, and just gets lucky winning because he makes so many mistakes or something

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I don't who by name, but almost all Corrins say "Nah, YOC isn't really a notable Corrin, he just gets lucky to get good placements". Supposdly he makes a ton of mistakes, and just gets lucky winning because he makes so many mistakes or something

Idk what Corrins your talking to, but like everyone in the CorrinCord think him or Cosmos are the bestCorrin. Though YOC does not implement Dragon Lunge too much, which is one of his flaws.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't who by name, but almost all Corrins say "Nah, YOC isn't really a notable Corrin, he just gets lucky to get good placements". Supposdly he makes a ton of mistakes, and just gets lucky winning because he makes so many mistakes or something

Cosmos wrote "you are very good!" to YOC in the Corrin Discord. Of course, it's possible Cosmos was just being nice, but I don't think that's the case. You could look at some YOC videos on YouTube and see for yourself, I suppose.

With that being said, I don't think Corrin is top 12.

 

[Laken64]

Cosmos wrote "you are very good!" to YOC in the Corrin Discord. Of course, it's possible Cosmos was just being nice, but I don't think that's the case. You could look at some YOC videos on YouTube and see for yourself, I suppose.

With that being said, I don't think Corrin is top 12.

YOC is indeed a top Corrin being in the Omega Yato role (Competitive Corrins that bring results/put in work like Cosmos, Ryuga, Frozen)

I also agree with your statement Corrin is at least 18-25 to me for now though Corrin results have been slightly growing as of late.

 

[Browny]

Heads up, I am giving permission to Bowserboy3 to re-create this thread and handle is they see fit since I don't have the motivation to do this right now and people want it restarted.

Coming shortly a new thread will appear, so follow that one instead. Mods, I do not want this thread to die since in future I may want to take over again but for now, I don't mind if it is locked with the possibility of reopening it if I see fit.