Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Frihetsanka]

Am I the only person that thinks that tiers are the least significant they have ever been in smash history? Let's take a moment to reflect on how relatively balanced Smash 4 is.

Melee and Brawl weren't all that balance though, but yeah, Smash 4 is reasonably balanced.

Edit: Mii Brawler should be higher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OARZaYTYe2I

 

[Swevester]

+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[Frihetsanka]

+1
+1
+1
+1

I don't think we've resumed voting yet. Also, why upvote Roy? Did he get some results recently or something? Did someone figure out some new theory that made him more viable?

 

[Swevester]

I don't think we've resumed voting yet. Also, why upvote Roy? Did he get some results recently or something? Did someone figure out some new theory that made him more viable?

Oh, whoops. Forgive me, I'm simply NOT reading 295 pages of one thread. I'm just not willing to believe that Roy is worse than 1111 Swordfighter. I've seen way more representation of him than that.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Oh, whoops. Forgive me, I'm simply NOT reading 295 pages of one thread. I'm just not willing to believe that Roy is worse than 1111 Swordfighter. I've seen way more representation of him than that.

It's guest xxxx

 

[Frihetsanka]

Oh, whoops. Forgive me, I'm simply NOT reading 295 pages of one thread. I'm just not willing to believe that Roy is worse than 1111 Swordfighter. I've seen way more representation of him than that.

" Mii fighters are Guest XXXX"

Wouldn't it make more sense to downvote Swordfighter if you thought they were 1111? Though they're not, so you shouldn't do that anyway. I'd say XXXX Mii Brawler deserves to be higher; Dapuffster has proven that.

 

[Swevester]

" Mii fighters are Guest XXXX"

Wouldn't it make more sense to downvote Swordfighter if you thought they were 1111? Though they're not, so you shouldn't do that anyway. I'd say XXXX Mii Brawler deserves to be higher; Dapuffster has proven that.

Hmm, I suppose I really should have in that case. I honestly think Swordfighter and Roy are in the wrong positions, though. So I casted my (unnecessary) vote.

Brawler can be...scary. Although I really can't answer for him because I haven't seen much with him.

 

[Shollyboster]

Hmm, I suppose I really should have in that case. I honestly think Swordfighter and Roy are in the wrong positions, though. So I casted my (unnecessary) vote.

Brawler can be...scary. Although I really can't answer for him because I haven't seen much with him.

Coney has a pretty decent Brawler.

 

[Swevester]

Coney has a pretty decent Brawler.

Time to research

If and when the voting commences, my answers will probably stay the same (I might -1 and +1 as well if Coney truly impresses me though).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Time to research

If and when the voting commences, my answers will probably stay the same (I might -1 and +1 as well if Coney truly impresses me though).

If and when you vote, the tiers all reset and everyone is at the same place

 

[Bowserboy3]

If we are starting... (I know we aren't yet)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ please.

I also expect to see rise up a bit (though please, I hope he doesn't rise too much).

And maybe with Pink Fresh and Marss performing at 2GGT KTAR Saga, people will stop dismissing and as characters that were once good. They're still amazing (Winners Finals between these two is arguably the best set in Smash 4 history thus far. So many unique KO's, so many combos, and unique ones also at that. Commentary was top notch. Awesome. Makes me proud to use these two).

Also, I'm going to leave a bold statement; I think Marss is currently the best ZSS out there. There's like, no reason to say otherwise. He has far better results and consistency in the new patch than Nairo.

That said, Nairo at his peak seems to still be better than Marss at his peak. Nairo might be the better player overall, but he isn't showing it right now.

---
Seeing as we are doing nothing right now, and on the topic of Marth, watch this. This is strangely surreal to watch...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0j3Mff-_vw

 

[Deleted member]

and are deserving of low tier imo. I'll be surprised if they don't drop by the next list.

 

[LRodC]

and are deserving of low tier imo. I'll be surprised if they don't drop by the next list.

I think you can definitely make a case about Pac-Man, but why Wario? Is it just purely his lack of usage? With his full kit, he comes off to me as very middle of the pack, no more and no less. Nothing special, but not bad either.

 

[Deleted member]

I think you can definitely make a case about Pac-Man, but why Wario? Is it just purely his lack of usage? With his full kit, he comes off to me as very middle of the pack, no more and no less. Nothing special, but not bad either.

Pretty much every top Wario has either dropped him or either uses their secondary more bar Reflex and Nasubi.

His results for the most part are underwhelming, and he has bad matchups against the most relevant characters in the meta () and some others (in particular isn't very fun for him, and ) can take claim for doing well for the most part against him. He has a barebones neutral, poor range, pokes, and basically has to fish/camp for Waft because otherwise he can barely kill reliably. You can only run away for so long. Honestly I don't see how he isn't low tier with all these current factors.

If anything, he's just way too outclassed in this meta. That's how I see it.

 

[LRodC]

Pretty much every top Wario has either dropped him or either uses their secondary more bar Reflex and Nasubi.

His results for the most part are underwhelming, and he has bad matchups against the most relevant characters in the meta () and some others (in particular isn't very fun for him, and ) can take claim for doing well for the most part against him. He has a barebones neutral, poor range, pokes, and basically has to fish/camp for Waft because otherwise he can barely kill reliably. You can only run away for so long. Honestly I don't see how he isn't low tier with all these current factors.

If anything, he's just way too outclassed in this meta. That's how I see it.

I think his biggest problem is lack of a reason to use him. He lacks a particularly great niche and relies a lot on his Waft. Basically, what's the point of using Wario instead of a character that takes less time to learn and has more reward unless you really like the character?

Regardless, if he does fall into low tier, I realistically can't see him being any lower than high low tier right now. He doesn't come off to me as a poor character, but that just speaks to how many characters are viable currently.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I just wanted to post this here; how much characters have changed from their pervious appearance in my opinion.

Spoiler: Character Changes

- Significantly buffed - now a decent fighter.
- Significantly buffed - now considerably good, and viable.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs.
- Considerably nerfed - high tier to low/bottom tier.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs - very slightly nerfed overall. Still one of the best.
- Considerably buffed.
- Considerably nerfed.
- While technically buffed, ends up nerfed due to much poorer neutral game.
- While technically nerfed, ends up better relative to the cast due to overall game changes.
- Considerably buffed - much more usable, but still poor due to his main flaws being in tact
- Buffed overall.
- Slightly nerfed. While still bad. arguably still better than in Brawl.
- Slightly buffed.
- Considerably buffed.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs - slightly nerfed overall. Slightly better relative to the cast, however.
- Significantly buffed.
- Significantly buffed - now one of the best in the game.
- Considerably nerfed - still a relatively viable character.
- Overwhelmingly nerfed - still a relatively viable character.
- Considerably buffed - better relative to the cast overall, and thus, significantly more viable.
- Slightly nerfed overall - still average overall however.
- Significantly buffed - now considerably good, and viable.
- Nerfed overall - while still relatively good, less effective, now average/above average as opposed to one of the best.
- Considerably buffed.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs.
- Considerably buffed.
- Considerably buffed - still relatively poor due to his main flaws being slightly worsened.
- Considerably buffed - now a relatively decent character as opposed to one of the worst.
- Significantly buffed - much more effective, one of the best in the game.
- Considerably buffed - main flaws addressed, and can now play an effective game.
- While slightly nerfed, ends up slightly better relative to the cast due to overall game changes.
- Slightly nerfed - now a surprisingly average character. Certainly not bad, but not notably good either.
- Significantly buffed - now considerably good, and viable.
- Slightly nerfed (why have they nerfed a character that has always been bad?).
- Considerably buffed - slight rise relative to the cast, despite being high tier before.

Then of course...

,,,,and - REMOVED FROM THE GAME - Rest in spaghetti, never forgetti.

---

Anyway, I want to talk about a moment. I seriously don't think she's the worst character in the game, or at the very least, not the single worst character, and certainly not flawed enough to be in her own tier.

Basically, while Puff does have noticeable flaws, such as being incredibly light, slow grounded movement, poor range etc, she does perform better than a lot of the other bottom tiers in one area, which is arguably more important in competitive play than anything else, and that is the fact that she can approach easier.

Characters like , and even characters like , all struggle to approach, due to lacking good enough long range options, like a useful projectile, and having extremely slow dash and air speeds. Jigglypuff on the other hand, has a fantastic air speed, which means she actually has something she can use effectively to approach. Her low short hop also helps in this area, as she is then not forced to stay in the air for extended periods of time if she doesn't want to. It's far easier to get in on an opponent with Jigglypuff than it is for the three characters I mentioned at least. Sure, you can argue that her poor range hinders her ability to safely convert when in on an opponent, but the fact she can actually get there in the first place with relative ease is a huge boon.

Another thing people also gloss over is the fact that Jigglypuff also gets far more mileage and usage in doubles tournaments, mainly due to the fact that doubles helps exaggerate her strengths, such as ability to edgeguard effectively, partner to Rest combos, Rest is in general safer to use etc, and as well as the ability to stay in safety much easier than other low tiers, thanks to her great aerial movement. This set is an example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb-LJ0gEpGo.

With all this, I still find it absurd that Jigglypuff can even be considered to be the single worst character, and even more importantly, in her own tier! If you ask me, there are at least 2 to or 3 characters that are all equally bad, lack enough positives and results to decide on a definitive worst, similar to how it's currently impossible to determine who the best character is. If you ask me, Puff, Zelda and Brawler are all so poor it's impossible to choose who is the exact worst.

And by this point, the fact that Mii's still get almost no usage needs to be taken into account more, regardless of the reasoning. There's no reason for Brawler to not at the east be tied last; almost no usage and no results, along with when its the once in a blue moon moment they are allowed, it's usually Guest 1111. Sure, we can argue that Guest XXXX is a much more viable character, but considering the tier list reflects competitive play, where Mii's get less usage than all characters, I think this should be taken into account.

 

[Deleted member]

I just wanted to post this here; how much characters have changed from their pervious appearance in my opinion.

Spoiler: Character Changes

- Significantly buffed - now a decent fighter.
- Significantly buffed - now considerably good, and viable.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs.
- Considerably nerfed - high tier to low/bottom tier.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs - very slightly nerfed overall. Still one of the best.
- Considerably buffed.
- Considerably nerfed.
- While technically buffed, ends up nerfed due to much poorer neutral game.
- While technically nerfed, ends up better relative to the cast due to overall game changes.
- Considerably buffed - much more usable, but still poor due to his main flaws being in tact
- Buffed overall.
- Slightly nerfed. While still bad. arguably still better than in Brawl.
- Slightly buffed.
- Considerably buffed.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs - slightly nerfed overall. Slightly better relative to the cast, however.
- Significantly buffed.
- Significantly buffed - now one of the best in the game.
- Considerably nerfed - still a relatively viable character.
- Overwhelmingly nerfed - still a relatively viable character.
- Considerably buffed - better relative to the cast overall, and thus, significantly more viable.
- Slightly nerfed overall - still average overall however.
- Significantly buffed - now considerably good, and viable.
- Nerfed overall - while still relatively good, less effective, now average/above average as opposed to one of the best.
- Considerably buffed.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs.
- Mixture of buffs and nerfs.
- Considerably buffed.
- Considerably buffed - still relatively poor due to his main flaws being slightly worsened.
- Considerably buffed - now a relatively decent character as opposed to one of the worst.
- Significantly buffed - much more effective, one of the best in the game.
- Considerably buffed - main flaws addressed, and can now play an effective game.
- While slightly nerfed, ends up slightly better relative to the cast due to overall game changes.
- Slightly nerfed - now a surprisingly average character. Certainly not bad, but not notably good either.
- Significantly buffed - now considerably good, and viable.
- Slightly nerfed (why have they nerfed a character that has always been bad?).
- Considerably buffed - slight rise relative to the cast, despite being high tier before.

Then of course...

,,,,and - REMOVED FROM THE GAME - Rest in spaghetti, never forgetti.

---

Anyway, I want to talk about a moment. I seriously don't think she's the worst character in the game, or at the very least, not the single worst character, and certainly not flawed enough to be in her own tier.

Basically, while Puff does have noticeable flaws, such as being incredibly light, slow grounded movement, poor range etc, she does perform better than a lot of the other bottom tiers in one area, which is arguably more important in competitive play than anything else, and that is the fact that she can approach easier.

Characters like , and even characters like , all struggle to approach, due to lacking good enough long range options, like a useful projectile, and having extremely slow dash and air speeds. Jigglypuff on the other hand, has a fantastic air speed, which means she actually has something she can use effectively to approach. Her low short hop also helps in this area, as she is then not forced to stay in the air for extended periods of time if she doesn't want to. It's far easier to get in on an opponent with Jigglypuff than it is for the three characters I mentioned at least. Sure, you can argue that her poor range hinders her ability to safely convert when in on an opponent, but the fact she can actually get there in the first place with relative ease is a huge boon.

Another thing people also gloss over is the fact that Jigglypuff also gets far more mileage and usage in doubles tournaments, mainly due to the fact that doubles helps exaggerate her strengths, such as ability to edgeguard effectively, partner to Rest combos, Rest is in general safer to use etc, and as well as the ability to stay in safety much easier than other low tiers, thanks to her great aerial movement. This set is an example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb-LJ0gEpGo.

With all this, I still find it absurd that Jigglypuff can even be considered to be the single worst character, and even more importantly, in her own tier! If you ask me, there are at least 2 to or 3 characters that are all equally bad, lack enough positives and results to decide on a definitive worst, similar to how it's currently impossible to determine who the best character is. If you ask me, Puff, Zelda and Brawler are all so poor it's impossible to choose who is the exact worst.

And by this point, the fact that Mii's still get almost no usage needs to be taken into account more, regardless of the reasoning. There's no reason for Brawler to not at the east be tied last; almost no usage and no results, along with when its the once in a blue moon moment they are allowed, it's usually Guest 1111. Sure, we can argue that Guest XXXX is a much more viable character, but considering the tier list reflects competitive play, where Mii's get less usage than all characters, I think this should be taken into account.

and were nerfed in the transition to Smash 4. They're for the most part better because of the engine along with smaller flaws of them from previous games being addressed.

Also is definitely the worst character in the game at this point. With RDR7 done with Smash her meta is basically at rock bottom. Not to disregard any of your points, but her complete lack of rep or results speaks volumes about how bad she is. Even if she has decent aerials and Rest is a move worth fearing, it doesn't matter when a good amount of the cast out buttons or outranges you.

actually gets way better results than her fellow "bottom" tiers (), so that is definitely something.

 

[Nairo]

If we are starting... (I know we aren't yet)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ please.

I also expect to see rise up a bit (though please, I hope he doesn't rise too much).

And maybe with Pink Fresh and Marss performing at 2GGT KTAR Saga, people will stop dismissing and as characters that were once good. They're still amazing (Winners Finals between these two is arguably the best set in Smash 4 history thus far. So many unique KO's, so many combos, and unique ones also at that. Commentary was top notch. Awesome. Makes me proud to use these two).

Also, I'm going to leave a bold statement; I think Marss is currently the best ZSS out there. There's like, no reason to say otherwise. He has far better results and consistency in the new patch than Nairo.

That said, Nairo at his peak seems to still be better than Marss at his peak. Nairo might be the better player overall, but he isn't showing it right now.

---
Seeing as we are doing nothing right now, and on the topic of Marth, watch this. This is strangely surreal to watch...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0j3Mff-_vw

That's not entirely true! At this time at least lol its like people forget everything because of one event. This patch with ZSS I've won EGLX, FOW saga, Momocon, Lvl up Expo, a KTAR and got 4th at GOML and 2nd at LTC. CEO I got 17th losing to zinoto and hyuga/not bad losses and outplaced marss by a round or two. EVO I got 13th losing to Ranai and Larry/definitely not bad losses and marss outplaced me by one there(tho he had to fight Mr.E the same time I fought Larry, he told me he was hyped to run into the only Marth that far in the bracket LOL!)

Overall we both can do the same tricks and stuff with ZSS/about the same skill so it comes down to brackets/MU preferences/how we play on tourney days, but I'm happy he got wins on some top 10 players now, I'm sure he can continue to do the same at future events and do just as well

 

[Bowserboy3]

That's not entirely true! At this time at least lol its like people forget everything because of one event. This patch with ZSS I've won EGLX, FOW saga, Momocon, Lvl up Expo, a KTAR and got 4th at GOML and 2nd at LTC. CEO I got 17th losing to zinoto and hyuga/not bad losses and outplaced marss by a round or two. EVO I got 13th losing to Ranai and Larry/definitely not bad losses and marss outplaced me by one there(tho he had to fight Mr.E the same time I fought Larry, he told me he was hyped to run into the only Marth that far in the bracket LOL!)

Overall we both can do the same tricks and stuff with ZSS/about the same skill so it comes down to brackets/MU preferences/how we play on tourney days, but I'm happy he got wins on some top 10 players now, I'm sure he can continue to do the same at future events and do just as well

Oopsie, that's my bad there, not looking too far back. What you say about brackets and stuff makes a huge point though, so that's true. Marss has improved immensely though in these past few months. It's kind of exciting to see another strong ZSS player up there. I have been learning how to use ZSS for a few months now, and I certainly appreciate having multiple players to learn from.

While you're here though, I was wondering what your opinion of ZSS in this patch is. How relevant do you feel she is in the current patch? Where would you place her in the tier list, and why? What's changed with her top tier matchups? Is there anything ZSS should be doing more of now? Has her optimal playstyle changed much (and if so, what to)?

Opinion on ZSS seems to vary a lot; some people still feel she's still incredible, while others feel she's dropped off the radar a bit. Hearing it from you would provide some helpful insight

 

[eVeRFRee]

Le personnage le + fort est le joueur, choisissez votre personnage en fonction de votre style.
Au même niveau de jeu tout les personnages sont égaux, seule le temps de réaction du joueur fait la victoire ou la défaite.
Entrainez-vous aux contre aérien pour faire un KO en l'air et si l'adversaire ne connait pas le jeu alors cela changeras des techniques habituelles des Tournois.

PS: Stop it "Top Tiers" (c'est ennuyant et lassant). lassant=>baille / dormir / toujours pareil = sleeping

 

[Bowserboy3]

Oh dear... a D in French doesn't get you far, but, for those who don't understand the language, here goes...

If I am reading the above post right right what this guy is basically saying is that it's not about the characters, but it's about you personally, and you should pick a character to suit your own playstyle.

This, is true.

Continuing, I think it then goes on to mention something about the fact that actually, all characters are equal realistically, and it's just the players choices like reaction times, habits etc, giving an example of, if your opponent doesn't play well in the air, adapt to this. You should just be adapting for the tournament etc. It then finishes with something along the lines with "Stop it Top Tiers, it's boring and tedious" (?).

This however, is only part right. Sure, reaction time play a part in Smash, and you most certainly have to adapt to your opponent, and not be predictable yourself, but not all characters are equal. Some characters just don't have the tools to perform in certain matchups (Ganon vs Sheik is claimed to be almost unwinnable, mainly due to the fact that Sheik can camp him, which stops his approach, she can easily approach him, safely, and if he does get in, she can combo him extremely easily, as well as edgeguard him well), and some characters just don't have as good matchup spreads.

While player skill does play a part in characters performance, the character themselves plays a heavily important role too. Not every character is on an even playing field. The playing field is much leveller this time around though; even the low/bottom tier characters have some use/aren't bad characters. It's either the fact that they fail to stand out, or have a certain problem that holds them back (as opposed to in past games, where the bad characters had like 6 problems and almost no real positives).

 

[eVeRFRee]

Only my opinion. Et je suis d'accord avec vous mais tout dépends de ce que vous voulez faire.
Mais le fait est que les Perfect TAS sont jouable avec chacun des personnages contre chacun des autres personnages (et même sur n'importe quel stage).

(((((je pense que Le TOP Tier est réaliser sur la Popularité de la technique utilisé par des joueurs très fort avec un groupe de personnages limité par rapport aux nombres Total des personnages jouables par jeu Smash)))).

Sorry "KO aérien avec un Smash vers le bas placer en contre ce qui annule la capacité du controller à réagir" je précise.
And j'ai apprécier les nouvelles techniques de Tournoi de Smash 64 de l'année dernière qui ont été organiser en Amérique avec SuPeRbOoMfAn comme vainqueur.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Anyway, I want to talk about a moment. I seriously don't think she's the worst character in the game, or at the very least, not the single worst character, and certainly not flawed enough to be in her own tier.

I still think she's the worst since, well, who else would be? Ganondorf? He can score some pretty early kills. Zelda? She got some results. Roy? I don't think he's worse than Jigglypuff. I do agree that she shouldn't be in a tier of her own, though. This game seems balanced enough to not really have a bottom tier. She's better than Brawl Ganondorf and Melee Pichu and Kirby.

Another thing people also gloss over is the fact that Jigglypuff also gets far more mileage and usage in doubles tournaments [...]

This tier list does not take doubles into account.

And by this point, the fact that Mii's still get almost no usage needs to be taken into account more, regardless of the reasoning. There's no reason for Brawler to not at the east be tied last; almost no usage and no results, along with when its the once in a blue moon moment they are allowed, it's usually Guest 1111. Sure, we can argue that Guest XXXX is a much more viable character, but considering the tier list reflects competitive play, where Mii's get less usage than all characters, I think this should be taken into account.

At this point, perhaps it would be a good idea to rate them for 1111? Seems people are underselling them anyway. Guest XXXX Brawler is quite good, which Dapuffster has proven (two of which being: top 13 EVO 2015, and almost took a set off ZeRo in some tournament).

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

"On the Defense of Pac-Man" by L1N3R1D3R

I've seen two posts above me dismissing as low tier. It saddens me partly because I play the character, but mostly because you guys are still following the trend and not giving him the attention he deserves. Now I'm not saying that Pac-Man is definitely a high tier character by any means, but he most certainly should not be low tier.

Ideally, a tier list should not be based solely on theory or solely on results, but a combination of the two, what I call "theorem".
~In science and mathematics, "theory" is the summation of observations made on experiments. In Smash, that means all the traps, setups, combos, etc. a character is capable of doing ideally.
~In contrast, "theorem" is a theory that has been proven. In Smash, that would be done with high-level representation and results.

I'm sure you guys can agree that Pac-Man has a pretty good theory. Sure, he has a terrible grab game and some moves are a bit too laggy, but he has plenty of strengths to mostly outweigh it. He has a great recovery that goes far, has a bit of super armor, and boasts great hitboxes. He has certain moves that have great frame data and so are very useful, with Pac Jump and N-air having very low startup as escape options, and Dash attack and F-air having very low end lag as combo options. And, most famously, his trap game is arguably one of the best in the game, with eight different projectiles in his Power Fruit that all have different properties and his Fire Hydrant which can either push you or the opponent or set up another obstacle for the opponent to try to avoid. His theory isn't too solid, of course, but it does have high potential, especially with the trapping game.

Now, for most people right now, that is where the positives of Pac-Man stop. He may have pretty good theory, but that means very little until it's proven as "theorem" with results. And I will agree with the majority that he doesn't have good results at the moment. His only true mains ATM are Tea and Ginko in Japan, Sinji and Zage in the US, and Elexiao in France, with Abadango and Koolaid reserving him as a secondary or doubles character instead, and their placements are nothing extraordinary.
However, you can not dismiss the results he has gotten in the past, which are quite high. Abadango truly figured out Pac-Man back then, and he used this knowledge to place very highly in stacked tournaments, which is no small feat. If anything, it should mean more now, considering that Pac-Man has been (albeit slightly) buffed since then. Granted, there are more characters who have made larger rises both in theory and in results, which will inevitably move Pac-Man lower than the high tier position he held in the past, but the point still stands that contrary to popular belief, his theory has been proven a lot. And it is this "theorem" he has which puts him above the characters we can unanimously agree are low tier, meaning he is at least out of the bottom fifteen.

[A side note unrelated to his tier list position, but I thought was worth mentioning: Another argument people have against Pac-Man is that once you learn the matchup, he becomes very predictable and easy to beat. First of all, I don't think that's true because his trap game has so many different possibilities that every Pac-Man player has a different play style, so adapting to a specific Pac-Man is more on the player and less on the character. And even if it is true, it's not a big problem because again, his representation at the moment is pretty low, meaning that most people will not have faced a competent Pac-Man and learned the matchup.]

I hope you guys can now see that indeed, Pac-Man has a good "theorem", more than enough to prove he should not be low tier. Stop ignoring the past, because those results still mean a lot, especially for a pre-buff version of the character.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Personally agree the Pac-attack is not low tier. That much janky trap stuff can only be predicted for so long. I feel he's a solid mid-tier. Has some big faults but lots of big positives in the end. He needs more top players (like half the cast does too)

Edit: Totally found a pretty good Pac on FG last night, of all places. A good Zdrop combo did 60 damage in less than a second. Good lord

 

[Shollyboster]

For everyone that wants to know what eVeRFRee said:

+ The strong character is the player, choose your character to suit your style.
The same level of play all the characters are equal, only the player's reaction time is victory or defeat.
Train yourself against the air to make a KO in the air and if the opponent does not know the game then it will change the usual techniques of the tournaments.

PS: Stop it "Top Third" (it's boring and tiresome) .

Only my opinion. And I agree with you but everything depends on what you want to do.
But the fact is that Perfect TAS are playable with each of the characters against each of the other characters (and even on any course).

(((((I think TOP Tier is performed on the Popularity of technique used by very strong players with a group of characters limited compared to the numbers Total playable by game Smash)))).

Sorry "KO air with Smash down in place against which negates the ability of the controller to react" I said.
And I appreciate the new techniques Tournament Smash 64 of last year that were organized in America with SuPeRbOoMfAn the winner.

 

[Shollyboster]

That's not entirely true! At this time at least lol its like people forget everything because of one event. This patch with ZSS I've won EGLX, FOW saga, Momocon, Lvl up Expo, a KTAR and got 4th at GOML and 2nd at LTC. CEO I got 17th losing to zinoto and hyuga/not bad losses and outplaced marss by a round or two. EVO I got 13th losing to Ranai and Larry/definitely not bad losses and marss outplaced me by one there(tho he had to fight Mr.E the same time I fought Larry, he told me he was hyped to run into the only Marth that far in the bracket LOL!)

Overall we both can do the same tricks and stuff with ZSS/about the same skill so it comes down to brackets/MU preferences/how we play on tourney days, but I'm happy he got wins on some top 10 players now, I'm sure he can continue to do the same at future events and do just as well

I think you're right. But I might be a little biased since I never see marss slaying souls on For Glory.

Personally agree the Pac-attack is not low tier. That much janky trap stuff can only be predicted for so long. I feel he's a solid mid-tier. Has some big faults but lots of big positives in the end. He needs more top players (like half the cast does too)

Yeah, have you guys seen Zage in Xanadu? It's always mesmerizing. Almost as fun as watching ESAM play pikachu. Abadango had some pretty jank moments as well tho.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, Miis. Should we rate them based on Guest XXXX, or Guest 1111? Who is the best 1111 Mii, anyway? Gunner? How good is 1111 Gunner? Routa ?

 

[Djmarcus44]

So, Miis. Should we rate them based on Guest XXXX, or Guest 1111? Who is the best 1111 Mii, anyway? Gunner? How good is 1111 Gunner? Routa ?

Yes, 1111 Gunner is the best 1111 mii because Gunner is the only 1111 Mii Fighter that gets consistent tournament representation.

1111 Gunner has one of the best neutral games in Smash 4 if not the best neutral game in Smash 4, a substandard advantage state, and a decent disadvantage state. I think that Mii Gunner could be a mid tier in 2017 because Flama is planning on attending some major tournaments such as EVO. ROM has also gotten some good results with Gunner such as 33rd in a 221 man Umebura 24 tournament (he also beat Kirihara in this tournament despite Rosalina being considered Gunner's worst matchup).

Gunner is currently considered a low mid tier in Japan, a low tier in Brazil according to their Matchup chart tier list (I personally disagree with a majority of the chart for Gunner, but I am not sure about the tournament representation for Gunner in that area), and a bottom tier in the US and Europe. I am not sure how Mexico views Mii Gunner, but I would assume that they have a pretty high opinion of Gunner since Flama is a really good player in that area (since he has beaten the 6th best player in the Mexico City PR and the 8th best player in the Mexico City PR, and he has taken a set off of Wonf, a player considered to be the 5th best player in Mexico, I would not be surprised if Flama is considered a top ten player in Mexico).

 

[Bowserboy3]

1111 Gunner has one of the best neutral games in Smash 4 if not the best neutral game in Smash 4

When we have characters like Sheik and Diddy around who virtually control neutral, and characters like Mario (and Sheik again), who are virtually nonpunishable in neutral, I am loathe to believe this statement.

 

[Routa]

I also used to blindly believe that Gunner had the best Neutral. Gunner does indeed have amazing neutral. He does have hard time against smaller characters due to his main spacing move not hitting low enough. Bomb Drops cover that tho. Also his neutral isn't that great when there isn't that much space to move in. He gets cornered rather easily on some stages.

I do think that Gunner is the best from the Guest 1111 Miis and Brawler being the worst from the Miis. Gunner is the only Mii who does not get boost from alternative specials. I personally consider Gunner to be in same tier as characters like Wario. Mid tier if you ask mii (HA PUN!).

Rating Miis is really hard. Well rating Swordspider and Brawler due to how big of a boost they get from other special options. People are very biased towards Guest 1111 Miis and there is very little data from them. I personally would keep the Guest XXXX voting, due to there being so much diversity within Mii players. For example Yikarur, BigLord and Esquire use different sets. Also there are very little recordings of Swordspiders which are mainly from Tofer and Nyani. Both use different Up-B and Down-B. So yeah... Guest XXXX is my opinion.

And yeah I suck at writing...

 

[Deleted member]

Is this going to be restarted? With the Summer of Smash almost being over along with the evident rise of some characters a lot has changed in the meta.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Is this going to be restarted? With the Summer of Smash almost being over along with the evident rise of some characters a lot has changed in the meta.

Yea this should be restarted after smash con imo

 

[Djmarcus44]

When we have characters like Sheik and Diddy around who virtually control neutral, and characters like Mario (and Sheik again), who are virtually nonpunishable in neutral, I am loathe to believe this statement.

Gunner does both of the things that you have mentioned. Gunner can be safer in neutral than these characters because Gunner's fair is safe on perfect shield (even in close range, it is still +5 on block). In addition, Gunner can beat most of the cast in neutral with fair and charge blast alone (this is more than I can say for Mario).

Gunner's neutral is a top-tier neutral that is a strong contender for the best neutral in the game. Besides a decent initial dash, a frame 8 dash to shield, and a transcendent projectile that combos into many of Gunner's moves, Gunner also has great burst mobility with gundashing (RAR fair is a good approaching mixup that can get Gunner in close range quickly). Gunner also has charge blast to get opponents to approach, and good options to keep an opponent away (nair, bair, pivot ftilt, pivot fsmash, and pivot flame pillar). In CQC, Gunner has a frame 5 jab that can be jab canceled to get follow ups (Jab canceling can also make Gunner's jab decently safe on shield), a frame 5 up tilt that is a good anti-air option, and a frame 3 reflector that can get an opponent away from Gunner. Gunner also has a fast grab with good range (5th most range for a character with a frame 6 grab) and good follow ups (These follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread. Gunner also has some true combos out of a grab).

Gunner's fair allows Gunner to convert into good damage and kills from a very safe range. Some of the combos Gunner can get from fair include charge blast, RAR bair, and dash attack at low to mid percents. Gunner's fair to charge blast is also a 50-50 at high percents. Gunner's bair is also pretty safe on shield when spaced properly, and it can trip opponents at low percents and set up tech chases at mid to high percents. Gunner's nair is decently safe on shield when spaced properly, and it can lead to a grab at low percents and set up tech chases at mid to high percents. Gunner's ftilt can trip opponents at low percents and it can set up tech chases at mid to high percents. Gunner can cancel jab 1 or jab 2 into any tilt, smash attack, charge blast, grab, or dash attack, and these mixups can cover most defensive options of the opponent.

Gunner's neutral game is one of the main reasons why Gunner does well against Diddy Kong and Sheik (To my knowledge Gunner is 2-2 in sets against Diddy Kong and 3-2 in games against Sheik). Gunner is able to control mid to long range against them both with charge blast and fair.

By the way, why are you mentioning Mario among the top neutral games? While his neutral is good, his poor range can make it hard for him to approach sometimes. His mobility is pretty good, but it isn't enough to make up for this weakness.

Routa , what I am saying isn't a blind belief. It is an objective analysis of Gunner's tools that has been supported by tournament results. While shorter characters are a little bit tougher to hit with fair, Gunner can still hit them with ground level fair. In addition, Gunner can also keep them away with other moves such as nair, bair, pivot ftilt, pivot fsmash, and pivot flame pillar. Furthermore, Gunner's CQC isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Gunner's jab is decently safe on shield when jab canceled, and Gunner can use reflector as a quick option to get an opponent away from Gunner.

 

[xXEnderSeanXx]

-1
+1
+1

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just to cover myself here, I mentioned Mario when talking about top neutral games because it's totally true; Mario does have a top neutral game.

Mario's moves which he uses in neutral (basically all his aerials, sans Fair, with the occasional Full Hop Fireball thrown in the mix), all come out quickly and have next to no cooldown, making it difficult to challenge him despite his below-average range and merely average mobility, which compliments his punish game, especially with his famed grab game. Mario's Bair is almost Sheik Fair level in terms of how good it is in the neutral. He can also perform 2 aerials in a short hop (2 Bairs, 2 Uairs, 1 Bair and 1 Uair etc).

Sure, it's not the best neutral game in the game, and characters like Sheik, Diddy, and maybe even Gunner, are all better, but he really does possess one of the best neutral games in the game. It's very non committal, relatively unpunishable, and the reward is very high.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Just to cover myself here, I mentioned Mario when talking about top neutral games because it's totally true; Mario does have a top neutral game.

Mario's moves which he uses in neutral (basically all his aerials, sans Fair, with the occasional Full Hop Fireball thrown in the mix), all come out quickly and have next to no cooldown, making it difficult to challenge him despite his below-average range and merely average mobility, which compliments his punish game, especially with his famed grab game. Mario's Bair is almost Sheik Fair level in terms of how good it is in the neutral. He can also perform 2 aerials in a short hop (2 Bairs, 2 Uairs, 1 Bair and 1 Uair etc).

Sure, it's not the best neutral game in the game, and characters like Sheik, Diddy, and maybe even Gunner, are all better, but he really does possess one of the best neutral games in the game. It's very non committal, relatively unpunishable, and the reward is very high.

While Mario's aerials are difficult to challenge in close range, Mario's unimpressive mobility and lackluster projectile makes it pretty hard for him to get there. While he can dash to shield in order to get in, most characters have moves that are safe on shield with enough range to avoid getting punished by Mario. This is why Mario loses neutral to some characters that have mediocre neutral games such as ,, and. For these reasons ,,,,,,,,,,,, and (In Pikachu's case, the platfoms on most of the legal stages give him a pretty big mobility advantage over Mario) have better neutral games than Mario. I also can't safely say that Mario's neutral is better than the likes of ,,,,,,,,,,, and .

 

[Deleted member]

"mario has unimpressive mobility"

>has a top 10 airspeed and good walk/run speed

ok then.

 

[Djmarcus44]

"mario has unimpressive mobility"

>has a top 10 airspeed and good walk/run speed

ok then.

By unimpressive, I mean that Mario's mobility is good, but it isn't enough to make his neutral top tier. He has good ground mobility and very good aerial mobility, but he doesn't have the great burst mobility that is commonly found in a top tier neutral.

 

[Deleted member]

I really wish this thread comes back after SSC.

On a topic to talk about, what do we all think of ?