Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[NimbusSpark]

If I were to be completely honest, I feel as if later on through Smash 4's lifetime Fox is going to drop in viability in comparison to most of the other characters within his level.
I understand Fox is most certainly a dangerous character in his own right in our current time, and Larry Lurr definitely proves that when he plays as him, however as the Smash 4 meta-game is being further optimized, Fox simply won't be able to keep up thanks to one specific reason;
The amount of risk Fox has as a character is most likely one of the highest out of all of the top tiers.

When I'm referring to 'risk' here, I'm referring to what a player can do towards a specific character when they're in their own 'advantage' state, and theoretically, Fox can get clobbered easily if such situation arises.

This is strictly because of three values that factor in a character's general survivability: their weight, falling speed and recovery.
And when it comes to Fox, he dies quickly, falls faster than any other character in the game, hence gets combo'd very easily, and his recovery is too predictable and telegraphed thus gimping is a strong option against him.

Such weaknesses actually lead to him getting beaten to pretty much every character above him in the tier list, while additionally: getting at least soft countered by characters with strong combo/ground games such as Luigi, Little Mac (depending on the stage), and Kirby.

Now, I'm not saying Fox should be within bottom tier. Being rather decently versed in how to play as Fox, he's definitely not a bad character, he just plays similar to that of a glass cannon (with less glass thanks to having poor killing options). But sooner or later he is going to drop, and stay within around the Top 15-20, especially as the matches get quicker and people perfect their match-ups against him.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But sooner or later he is going to drop, and stay within around the Top 15-20, especially as the matches get quicker and people perfect their match-ups against him.

So, you think characters like Ness, Pikachu, Villager, and Meta Knight should be higher than Fox? And maybe also Greninja, Toon Link, Corrin, and Captain Falcon?

 

[NimbusSpark]

So, you think characters like Ness, Pikachu, Villager, and Meta Knight should be higher than Fox? And maybe also Greninja, Toon Link, Corrin, and Captain Falcon?

That is a bit of a varied question to ask, if I were to say so myself.
But if I were to be honest, I'd say he'd be within the middle to lower area of Tier 3, with no true predictions that such might actually happen. Fox is definitely not below Captain Falcon and such, especially since Fox has done too much as a character to be below the 'gatekeeper of top tier viability', not to mention has overall better tools than most of your listed characters, however he's certainly not as good as those that are above him.

And in your case of Pikachu being higher than Fox, that already happened before, but as you all know, the Smash 4 community wisened up to relying on the results of only one player (in this case, ESAM) and made him drop from Top 5 to the 15th spot in this tier list despite very little to no nerfs happening to Pikachu whatsoever.

 

[Tocaraca2]

TBH I don't think cloud is deserving of a top 3 spot at all. I've learned that he's good, but I never even thought he could be a top tier, and he just doesn't feel that great to me when playing against him. It's mainly his recovery that I feel makes him less than top tier, and he also doesn't have any throw combos except for 1 at very low percent and another at mid when he has limit charged.
The limit charge also seems to get wasted a lot when he gets thrown off the stage and has to use his Up B and loses the charge.
His projectile isn't that useful except when it is the limit break version and is used from off-stage.
Why is Cloud considered so good? Is it because of M2K? If that's the case, I say that it's just because M2K is really good with him.

 

[Munomario777]

TBH I don't think cloud is deserving of a top 3 spot at all. I've learned that he's good, but I never even thought he could be a top tier, and he just doesn't feel that great to me when playing against him. It's mainly his recovery that I feel makes him less than top tier, and he also doesn't have any throw combos except for 1 at very low percent and another at mid when he has limit charged.
The limit charge also seems to get wasted a lot when he gets thrown off the stage and has to use his Up B and loses the charge.
His projectile isn't that useful except when it is the limit break version and is used from off-stage.
Why is Cloud considered so good? Is it because of M2K? If that's the case, I say that it's just because M2K is really good with him.

Because a combination of range, frame data, combo game, mobility, and power make Cloud excellent at approaching, punishing, damage-racking, KOing, and spacing out opponents. Limit Break also gives him an extremely powerful trump card, plus the ability to control the pace of a match and force approaches by charging.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some observations and thoughts based on recent results (CEO 2016, etc):

Cloud probably deserves #1. More and more players have been picking him up and proving that he's easily one of the strongest characters in the game, and I think he's currently #1. Fox probably deserves to be a bit higher too. Villager has been underrepresented, should they move down a bit or do they deserve to be #12? Toon Link has been doing work, but it could be Hyuga carrying the character. It's becoming more and more clear that Marth deserves to be higher on the list, tier 5 is very low for a character with such representation and results. Same with Mega Man, Donkey Kong, and Peach.

Looking at the lower end of the tier list, I think Pac-Man might be slightly overrated. He's not a bad character but there are many characters below him that deserve to be ranked higher, I think. Dath played a pretty impressive Robin, for instance, though it could be the player carrying the character, I don't know.

The last character I'd like to mention for now is Palutena. She's not the 9th worst character in the game, just look at Prince Ramen vs ZeRo.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Some observations and thoughts based on recent results (CEO 2016, etc):

Cloud probably deserves #1. More and more players have been picking him up and proving that he's easily one of the strongest characters in the game, and I think he's currently #1. Fox probably deserves to be a bit higher too. Villager has been underrepresented, should they move down a bit or do they deserve to be #12? Toon Link has been doing work, but it could be Hyuga carrying the character. It's becoming more and more clear that Marth deserves to be higher on the list, tier 5 is very low for a character with such representation and results. Same with Mega Man, Donkey Kong, and Peach.

Looking at the lower end of the tier list, I think Pac-Man might be slightly overrated. He's not a bad character but there are many characters below him that deserve to be ranked higher, I think. Dath played a pretty impressive Robin, for instance, though it could be the player carrying the character, I don't know.

The last character I'd like to mention for now is Palutena. She's not the 9th worst character in the game, just look at Prince Ramen vs ZeRo.

Sigh using 1 set to determine everything, your like CCI. While I believe Palu is certainly not where she is on this tier list, ZeRo has little to no experience facing a good Palutena. Also Cloud loses HARD to Shiek. Quite frankly, just saying Cloud is the best because of Anti is absurd considering match ups and counterpicking seems like it will be the main focus of the Meta.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Sigh using 1 set to determine everything, your like CCI. While I believe Palu is certainly not where she is on this tier list, ZeRo has little to no experience facing a good Palutena.

I actually thought Palutena should be higher, and you're right that a lack of MU experience might influence the results. Still, Prince Ramen did fairly well with a character considered really low on the tier list. I do wonder where ZeRo will place Palutena on his tier list, heh.

Also Cloud loses HARD to Shiek. Quite frankly, just saying Cloud is the best because of Anti is absurd considering match ups and counterpicking seems like it will be the main focus of the Meta.

Does a character need to have no bad matchups in order to be #1? Komoriki listed Sheik as "even" on his matchup chart, though he could be wrong, of course. Also, I thought Cloud was the best before this tournament, and I think this tournament made the case even stronger. Whether Cloud is #1 or #2 doesn't make that big of a difference anyway, does it?

I'm glad to see he's not as common and dominant as Fox is in Melee. He's clearly not, at least not atm (and I hope never). I'm really glad to see so much variety in top picks, although I do think we see a bit too many Diddy Kongs, Sheiks, and Clouds.

 

[Deleted member]

A solo Cloud hasn't won anything big. He is not the best character in the game by any stretch.

You know what characters are taking reasonably large events?



These guys.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Sometimes it's less about the character and more about the players. Most seem to agree that Mario isn't top 5, or at least not top 3, yet his results have been great lately thanks to ANTi and Ally. Same with Fox. Let's not forget that pre-nerf Bayonetta didn't have the best results despite being the best character.

If we assume that there is no patch, then it seems likely that Cloud's results will improve over time. He's still a fairly new character and not that many players main him (although many pocket him), but if he is as strong as I believe he is, then it's likely more players will pick him up.

I do hope that I'm wrong, though. It's better for the game if current Diddy or Sheik is #1 and Cloud isn't as strong as I think he is.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sometimes it's less about the character and more about the players. Most seem to agree that Mario isn't top 5, or at least not top 3, yet his results have been great lately thanks to ANTi and Ally. Same with Fox. Let's not forget that pre-nerf Bayonetta didn't have the best results despite being the best character.

If we assume that there is no patch, then it seems likely that Cloud's results will improve over time. He's still a fairly new character and not that many players main him (although many pocket him), but if he is as strong as I believe he is, then it's likely more players will pick him up.

I do hope that I'm wrong, though. It's better for the game if current Diddy or Sheik is #1 and Cloud isn't as strong as I think he is.

For me, the fact that many people see Cloud good enough to the point where almost everyone pockets him, that shows how good he is. He's certainly by no means Melee Fox, and DEFINETLY not Brawl Meta Knight, and luckily has noticeable weaknesses, but I don't think it's out of the ordinary for people to consider him the best character in the game right now.

More of interest to me, are characters like , and , all of whom are appearing very frequently in the top spots of tournaments. While I believe Marth's own problems keep him from being anywhere close to the top 15, he is getting really good placements on a far too regular basis now to be overlooked, and Toon Link and Mewtwo are continuing to prove to us that we spent far too long sleeping on them. I remember the time when Mewtwo was considered bottom tier, and when Toon Link was considered around mid tier. Looking back at that now, it's absurd! Albeit, Mewtwo's buffs moved him up noticeably, but Toon Link has gotten relatively little changes. I'd say he definitely fares better in Smash 4 than he did in Brawl, even if he did objectively get nerfed (in a way, it's similar to ).

---

I remember making a post a while back about how characters I have always struggled with, somehow rose in the tier list. I have always struggled a bit with , and most of all, , and both of these have indeed risen. What I find more interesting, is that I have also always struggled against and and both these characters made quite a statement this weekend at CEO in one way or another. Trela losing to Jade's Bowser Jr could have been a few things, such as lack of matchup knowledge, but the fact that she did beat him gives me hope that Bowser Jr will rise in the future, because while I don't play him, I truly believe he has potential and gets slept upon (also, with Tweek announcing he will now be also using Bowser Jr [and Wario] alongside Cloud gives me even more hope). Dabuz breaking out Olimar at CEO after a long haitus also gives me hope that people will stop dismissing him. As Dabuz has shown us, he's clearly effective at what he does.

On a similar note, I wonder if people will start giving a crap about now? While I don't think she's too much higher, she certainly isn't bottom 10, and her total results alone prove this. My guess is that Ramin beating ZeRo will make people remember she actually exists now, which while a sad truth, is good in a way.

 

[Bigbomb2]

It's honestly becoming more of a tier list of top 10 best characters, a huge section of varying degrees of mid tier thanks to MU's, then like bottom 5. Pretty cool, CEO showed this pretty well I'd say. Exciting times for the meta

 

[Tocaraca2]

Because a combination of range, frame data, combo game, mobility, and power make Cloud excellent at approaching, punishing, damage-racking, KOing, and spacing out opponents. Limit Break also gives him an extremely powerful trump card, plus the ability to control the pace of a match and force approaches by charging.

Alright then, I think his mobility and/or frame data should be slightly nerfed, as he has his limit break trump card. He doesn't deserve to be that good, his sword is so huge he should be put under some pressure by it and have less mobility.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Alright then, I think his mobility and/or frame data should be slightly nerfed, as he has his limit break trump card. He doesn't deserve to be that good, his sword is so huge he should be put under some pressure by it and have less mobility.

Nerfing Limit Break Cross Slash would help a lot too.

 

[Tocaraca2]

I've been thinking about something.
Nerfing Limit Break Cross Slash would help a lot too.

I think that hitting with a limit break move should be devastating, I mean, it is Cloud's special ability.
I think the Blade Beam with limit break should be more powerful.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I have revived the thread

 

[NimbusSpark]

Given that EVO 2016 has came and gone while leaving quite the impact on all of us, how do you all think this will affect the next version of this tier list?

I can already see a mass of Megaman bandwagoning.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Along with the obvious Mega Man thing, can we please all stop sleeping on Marth now that he got both 13th and 17th at EVO?

 

[Deleted member]

And can we stop sleeping on after getting 33rd at the largest Smash 4 tournament in history on a SOLO run?

 

[LRodC]

Can we also make the top 10 one tier and finally move Mewtwo into it?

 

[Jeronado]

Top 10 doesn't mean they're all on exactly the same level.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't care what happens, but certain unnamed users here really need to realise that Marth is not overrated. Getting 13th and 17th in a solo run at the biggest national ever means a lot (as well as all of his other 17th place finishes at GOML, Pound etc).

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think that hitting with a limit break move should be devastating, I mean, it is Cloud's special ability.
I think the Blade Beam with limit break should be more powerful.

Another alternative would be to increase the charge rate by 2-3 seconds. He'd still be good, but he'd get fewer Limit Breaks.

According to Dabuz, Cloud would still be high tier without Limit Break. He'll still be top tier even with some Limit Break nerfs.

Another alternative would be nerfing some of his aerials.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I don't care what happens, but certain unnamed users here really need to realise that Marth is not overrated. Getting 13th and 17th in a solo run at the biggest national ever means a lot (as well as all of his other 17th place finishes at GOML, Pound etc).

That's why he gets to be in the same tier as Rob, Dk, Luigi, Yoshi, Falcon, Peach, etc.

 

[Bowserboy3]

That's why he gets to be in the same tier as Rob, Dk, Luigi, Yoshi, Falcon, Peach, etc.

Some of those characters don't even deserve to be above or with Marth at this point, namely , , and , all of whom either have problems that hold them back against the top tiers far more than Marth, or just don't get the results to warrant it.

 

[Tocaraca2]

And can we stop sleeping on after getting 33rd at the largest Smash 4 tournament in history on a SOLO run?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 33rd doesn't seem that great to me. Is it 33rd out of, like, 1000?

 

[Munomario777]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 33rd doesn't seem that great to me. Is it 33rd out of, like, 1000?

Out of over 2,600, actually.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Out of over 2,600, actually.

33rd out of 2637 people with Palutena is pretty impressive, but it's bound to happen eventually. There's always a chance that some good player will get far with a low tier, just less.
she's definitely not a bad character though.

 

[Bigbomb2]

There's always a chance that some good player will get far with a low tier, just less.

That's the big thing: consistency. Marth is getting up there in results consistently AND has some good rep by high level players. Then you have characters like Charizard who may be pretty darn effective in the right hands, but lack the consistancy in play style and especially rep. Hard to see low tier metas advance when there's like 3 high level players for them.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some characters I think should move up significantly, given recent results and overall good theory:

Marth (tier 2), Mega Man (tier 2), and Palutena (6 probably, low-mid).

I think tier 1 and 2 (top tier) should be merged into one tier. 6 and 7 (low-mid) should be one tier as well, and 8 and 9. Then we'd have:
Tier 1, S, top tier (9-10 characters)
Tier 2, A, high tier (7-9 characters)
Tier 3, B, high-mid tier (8-10 characters)
Tier 4, C, mid tier (2-8 characters)
Tier 5, D, low-mid tier (14-18 characters)
Tier 6, E, low tier (7-8 characters)

Is Jigglypuff really that bad that she basically needs a tier of her own? I don't think she is. Even the worst characters in Smash 4 aren't awful, so maybe we should call them "low tier" instead of "bottom tier"? Zelda even got some pretty good results at some event, didn't she?

 

[Bowserboy3]

I for one wouldn't have a tier titled "S" anymore. The highest tier IMO should be "A".

My reasoning is that, no characters in the game are powerful enough, or oppressive enough any more to warrant being in a special tier. If anything, there's a good argument for 3 or 4 characters being the best.

---

Regarding the post above by Frihetsanka , as Dabuz put it "Hungrybox has done more with Jigglypuff than any player with Dedede".

This doesn't mean that Dedede should be the last, no no no. The point is, that while Dedede is better (only by a bit), Puff has still been doing things. I too think that Puff shouldn't be in her own tier, and this point only solidifies me reasoning.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I for one wouldn't have a tier titled "S" anymore. The highest tier IMO should be "A".

My reasoning is that, no characters in the game are powerful enough, or oppressive enough any more to warrant being in a special tier. If anything, there's a good argument for 3 or 4 characters being the best.

---

Regarding the post above by Frihetsanka , as Dabuz put it "Hungrybox has done more with Jigglypuff than any player with Dedede".

This doesn't mean that Dedede should be the last, no no no. The point is, that while Dedede is better (only by a bit), Puff has still been doing things. I too think that Puff shouldn't be in her own tier, and this point only solidifies me reasoning.

Maybe there shouldn't be a tier called "S", though I don't think there should be a tier called "F" either, since that would imply that there are characters that fail. Perhaps the best tier should be A+?

If we look at characters that could (plausibly) the considered some of the worst: Dedede has some results in Japan, and one of the best Dedede players in my local is a Dedede main. Furthermore, ZeRo seems to think that Dedede is somewhat decent. If we look at the result chart, there is no way he should be considered one of the worst.

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/7ncu7OU.png

As you mentioned, Hungrybox did fairly well with Jigglypuff. I don't think this is enough to prove that she's not the worst character in the game (it's possible that she not, but I think she still is), but it might be enough to prove that she doesn't need a bottom tier of her own.

Zelda got some results, better results than Pac-Man even.

Ganondorf may have some serious flaws, but he's still pretty scary thanks to his potential to do a lot of damage and kill early. He's one of the worst characters in the game, sure, but enough to warrant a bottom tier? Brawl Ganondorf was probably bad enough, but Smash 4 Ganondorf is much better than Brawl Ganondorf.

Seeing how the tiers are ordered anyway I don't think we need all that many. Having fewer (6 or 7) would make it easier to give a description of what each tier means. It'd still be easy to see that Falco is a better low-tier character than Jigglypuff since Falco would be at or near the top of low-tier, while Jigglypuff would be at or near the bottom. Same with top tier, Diddy Kong would be at or near the top while, um... There's no real consensus on who the worst top tier is, is there? I've seen every top 10 character nominated for top 5 by someone (aside from Bayonetta, who is likely top 15 now anyway). This supports my argument of having just one tier for top tier (though Diddy Kong and Sheik are pretty consistently top 3, although I don't think they're strong enough to warrant a tier of their own).

 

[Bowserboy3]

As you mentioned, Hungrybox did fairly well with Jigglypuff. I don't think this is enough to prove that she's not the worst character in the game (it's possible that she not, but I think she still is), but it might be enough to prove that she doesn't need a bottom tier of her own.

That's basically what I was trying to say. Jigglypuff is still likely the worst, or 2nd worst character in the game, but she doesn't deserve to be in a tier of her own, not when she does still do things occasionally.

 

[Deleted member]

I for one wouldn't have a tier titled "S" anymore. The highest tier IMO should be "A".

My reasoning is that, no characters in the game are powerful enough, or oppressive enough any more to warrant being in a special tier. If anything, there's a good argument for 3 or 4 characters being the best.

---

Regarding the post above by Frihetsanka , as Dabuz put it "Hungrybox has done more with Jigglypuff than any player with Dedede".

This doesn't mean that Dedede should be the last, no no no. The point is, that while Dedede is better (only by a bit), Puff has still been doing things. I too think that Puff shouldn't be in her own tier, and this point only solidifies me reasoning.

er, what?

hbox barely focuses on smash 4, and dedede has had more results than puff throughout the game's entire lifespan. not to mention Puff's best player, RDR7, quit Smash 4. i'm not seeing how puff shouldn't be in her own tier/isn't the worst considering how far she's dropped off while other characters are continuing to put in the work.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Puff's best player, RDR7, quit Smash 4.

Proof?

 

[Deleted member]

Proof?

a member of his crew, Pendulum, said he did lol

 

[Wintermelon43]

a member of his crew, Pendulum, said he did lol

And where's his proof?

 

[Browny]

Maybe there shouldn't be a tier called "S", though I don't think there should be a tier called "F" either, since that would imply that there are characters that fail. Perhaps the best tier should be A+?

If we look at characters that could (plausibly) the considered some of the worst: Dedede has some results in Japan, and one of the best Dedede players in my local is a Dedede main. Furthermore, ZeRo seems to think that Dedede is somewhat decent. If we look at the result chart, there is no way he should be considered one of the worst.

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/7ncu7OU.png

As you mentioned, Hungrybox did fairly well with Jigglypuff. I don't think this is enough to prove that she's not the worst character in the game (it's possible that she not, but I think she still is), but it might be enough to prove that she doesn't need a bottom tier of her own.

Zelda got some results, better results than Pac-Man even.

Ganondorf may have some serious flaws, but he's still pretty scary thanks to his potential to do a lot of damage and kill early. He's one of the worst characters in the game, sure, but enough to warrant a bottom tier? Brawl Ganondorf was probably bad enough, but Smash 4 Ganondorf is much better than Brawl Ganondorf.

Seeing how the tiers are ordered anyway I don't think we need all that many. Having fewer (6 or 7) would make it easier to give a description of what each tier means. It'd still be easy to see that Falco is a better low-tier character than Jigglypuff since Falco would be at or near the top of low-tier, while Jigglypuff would be at or near the bottom. Same with top tier, Diddy Kong would be at or near the top while, um... There's no real consensus on who the worst top tier is, is there? I've seen every top 10 character nominated for top 5 by someone (aside from Bayonetta, who is likely top 15 now anyway). This supports my argument of having just one tier for top tier (though Diddy Kong and Sheik are pretty consistently top 3, although I don't think they're strong enough to warrant a tier of their own).

I placed the same as hungrybox in smash 4 at evo using jigglypuff and I think she's the worst in the game lol. Just not in her own tier at the bottom.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

And where's his proof?

K I'll get a screenshot from the Shulk discord(where Rdr7 himself said it)

 

[Shollyboster]

Am I the only person that thinks that tiers are the least significant they have ever been in smash history? Let's take a moment to reflect on how relatively balanced Smash 4 is.

My friend and I are equally skilled in this game, and we can both play any character we want and still have a good, close match. In Melee, however, if I go anything but Fox I'll get bodied. (I don't even MAIN Fox). Fox carries me in competitive Melee, which just goes to show how objectively better he is than other characters.

Good job, Sakurai. You found a way to make a game balanced without tripping. Even though you had to make one with an OP Meta Knight.