Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Bowserboy3]

I can't agree more. Ryu has had one of the weirdest lifetimes of any Smash character. Sometimes he gets a good result here or there and people are like: "Oh man! This character is insane and could be top 3!" but then other times he goes weeks or months without doing too much and people are like: "Eh, he doesn't have a good future ahead of him..."

It seems like a lot of people desperately want to love this character no matter what it takes. I don't think he is a top five character. He doesn't have results to back it up, his theory, while good, has never actually shown itself to play out as well as people imagine, and his MU spread is still really weird and iffy.

Personally, I think he is top 10 (probably in exactly tenth place). It's quite unfortunate to see ZeRo placing him so high and perpetuating these really bad misconceptions (just like he did with Shulk). Anyway, I hope people will eventually wake up about this character. He's not the ultra high skill cap, Melee-revival, top-tier sort of character everyone makes him out to be.

See, I definitely think he's a strong character, and I could theoretically see him among the top 5 (whichever place it be, because they are all pretty close). If he was to win a huge tournament similar to how Mewtwo or Mario did, I might see more reasoning to put him there, because he's definitely becoming a bit more common a character nowadays, and who's getting more common results.

It's taken time, but players are finally starting to show up using him. I'm excited to see how things go in the summer for him.

 

[Deleted member]

See, I definitely think he's a strong character, and I could theoretically see him among the top 5 (whichever place it be, because they are all pretty close). If he was to win a huge tournament similar to how Mewtwo or Mario did, I might see more reasoning to put him there, because he's definitely becoming a bit more common a character nowadays, and who's getting more common results.

It's taken time, but players are finally starting to show up using him. I'm excited to see how things go in the summer for him.

Ryu already won Fresh Saga courtesy of Trela.

We'll see how Trela does at CEO.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Some more good information for ya all:

http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-442#post-21235386

http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-443#post-21235522

http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-443#post-21235607

Interesting to see data like this.

 

[Deleted member]

Then how has etc gotten good results then?

Neither of those characters have results even close to the caliber of Marth (except arguably Duck Hunt).

Marth loses -2 or more to many top tiers (Although there are a few he beats or are evenish with). Additionally, his strengths aren't really that powerful, and his flaws, while not that bad, are a little worse than many of his strengths.

Like?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Neither of those characters have results even close to the caliber of Marth (except arguably Duck Hunt).


Like?

, probably but Mr E 2-0ed Nairo so idk. 7 out of the top 11, not very good

 

[Deleted member]

, probably but Mr E 2-0ed Nairo so idk. 7 out of the top 11, not very good

Literally none of those matchups are -2s besides probably .

 

[Wintermelon43]

Literally none of those matchups are -2s besides probably .[QUOTE/] LOL this has been factually proven wrong in a billion ways. Saying this just proves you are overhyping him a ton. Litertatly everything goes aganist that statement.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

, probably but Mr E 2-0ed Nairo so idk. 7 out of the top 11, not very good

Sonic is the only one here that is probably a minus 2. I feel like he is either even with or just sligthly loses, even with , loses to , but not -2, even or slightly loses like for, and I don't know about

 

[Bowserboy3]

Wintermelon43 - I would outright quote your last post, but you formatted it funny, so I can't.

But no, you are wrong. Sonic is indeed the only character somewhat close to 2-. Sheik is far easier than ever before, being at the least, 55:45 IMO. Diddy is around the same, if not, around 60:40. Ryu is arguably the same, if only based on previous results. However, this is based off of pre 1.1.4 Marth. I still think Ryu beats Marth, but I think it's a 55:45. Mewtwo is by far the easiest matchup out of those you stated, being potentially dead even, as Marth can contest with Mewtwo's range, with his own range, that is far more disjointed than Mewtwos, and can juggle him very easily. Fox is difinetly in Fox's favour, like Diddy. However, Marth can edgeguard Fox with his predictable recovery options very easily, in a similar fashion to how he can Ryu.

Anyway, you said "has been factually proven wrong in a billion ways". Go on then, prove it. Show us these billion ways that Marth is bad. And find something actually relevant. Don't come back with 1.1.1 Marth. Come back with anything 1.1.4 or above.

---

http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-443#post-21235607

This link is very interesting, everyone should make sure to check this out. This is a tier list based solely on results alone.

If we were to include things such as toolkits, and potential, characters like Mewtwo and Samus wouldn't be so low down, for example. However, it's nice to see a "tier list" with results as the only factor in creating it. It really shows you which characters are being used, and when.

---

Finally, it seems False switching his main focus to Marth is true - https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4mz3p1/is_false_really_maining_marth_in_smash_4/

As a Marth player, this is very exciting.

Also, it appears that not only is he going to be using Marth much more, he has also been practicing with Samus too! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaJ...list=PL6eS95rSpmNmLXJ-h33GjGBpyy3GoW67r&t=506

So, not only is False going to be focusing on Marth, there's potential for him to use Samus, another character I am passionate about...

False new favourite Smasher confirmed.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wintermelon43 - I would outright quote your last post, but you formatted it funny, so I can't.

But no, you are wrong. Sonic is indeed the only character somewhat close to 2-. Sheik is far easier than ever before, being at the least, 55:45 IMO. Diddy is around the same, if not, around 60:40. Ryu is arguably the same, if only based on previous results. However, this is based off of pre 1.1.4 Marth. I still think Ryu beats Marth, but I think it's a 55:45. Mewtwo is by far the easiest matchup out of those you stated, being potentially dead even, as Marth can contest with Mewtwo's range, with his own range, that is far more disjointed than Mewtwos, and can juggle him very easily. Fox is difinetly in Fox's favour, like Diddy. However, Marth can edgeguard Fox with his predictable recovery options very easily, in a similar fashion to how he can Ryu.

Anyway, you said "has been factually proven wrong in a billion ways". Go on then, prove it. Show us these billion ways that Marth is bad. And find something actually relevant. Don't come back with 1.1.1 Marth. Come back with anything 1.1.4 or above.

---



This link is very interesting, everyone should make sure to check this out. This is a tier list based solely on results alone.

If we were to include things such as toolkits, and potential, characters like Mewtwo and Samus wouldn't be so low down, for example. However, it's nice to see a "tier list" with results as the only factor in creating it. It really shows you which characters are being used, and when.

---

Finally, it seems False switching his main focus to Marth is true - https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4mz3p1/is_false_really_maining_marth_in_smash_4/

As a Marth player, this is very exciting.

Also, it appears that not only is he going to be using Marth much more, he has also been practicing with Samus too! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaJ...list=PL6eS95rSpmNmLXJ-h33GjGBpyy3GoW67r&t=506

So, not only is False going to be focusing on Marth, there's potential for him to use Samus, another character I am passionate about...

False new favourite Smasher confirmed.

I've told you, too many bad matchups (The ones I stated. They're defitenly -2 or at least most of them are). And then his theory doesn't have too many big strengths, while having tons of flaws. Litertatly, just watch the character for a few seconds and you can tell he is easily not high tier.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I've told you, too many bad matchups (The ones I stated. They're defitenly -2 or at least most of them are). And then his theory doesn't have too many big strengths, while having tons of flaws. Litertatly, just watch the character for a few seconds and you can tell he is easily not high tier.

Ok, then I can say the same reason for Kirby not being bottom tier or better than Link. You can't use the same argument every time, you have to write explain if you ever want people to believe that. You can't just spout misinformation and assume it is right, because it is so wrong. The only
Char that is is -2 is Sonic, the rest are not -2 besides maybe Fox. I would show you set video right now, but I am in my phone.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I've told you, too many bad matchups (The ones I stated. They're defitenly -2 or at least most of them are). And then his theory doesn't have too many big strengths, while having tons of flaws. Litertatly, just watch the character for a few seconds and you can tell he is easily not high tier.

I'm sorry Winter, but you just aren't backing yourself up. Going along the lines of "I said so, so you are wrong", without backing yourself up with facts or proof is not a good arguement. I've asked you to come up with some valid arguments, or proof, but you still refuse to cooperate. Go back up to this post - http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-...st-3-0-complete.379736/page-293#post-21235636 - and read all the links. Multiple players and backroomers are all coming to the opinion that Marth is a good character.

Thinkaman made a good post which is quite relevant here, let me link you to it - http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-443#post-21235750.

Basically, he says that, if say, somebody started winning tournaments and placing high with Mii Gunner, would that make him high tier? If nobody else is using the character, or if nobody else is managing to get results with the character, it waves a warning flag that actually, it's the player, not the character.

Let's put this into the perspective of Marth. Marth is placing high in big tournaments, and winning small tournaments, not just in one place mind, but all over the world. However, it isn't just one player doing this; it's by multiple players, which is supported by the character popularity poll. This shows/proves exactly the opposite of what is suggested with Mii Gunner; because multiple players are placing high with Marth, it shows that it is not the players, and that the character definitely has some sort of special qualities about them.

Marth has potential to be a low high/high mid tier character right about now, whether you like it or not. I'm still not totally on board yet, but every day, more and more proof is being found and dug up supporting this fact. What can you do?

In fact, if you want to see a good chunk of recent Marth games against characters he "loses to", check this link out - http://smashboards.com/threads/hero-kings-council-video-analysis.368553/page-17#post-21234513

To finish though, his theory is decent, and while it has noticeable flaws, what you fail to realise is that it has noticeable strengths too.

Put it this way:

• Tippered variants of all these moves are safe on shield (all aerials, Ftilt, Dtilt and Fsmash).
• Sourspots are only a flaw in terms of KO'ing power and shield safety. Sourspots have many positive uses, such as lower knockback for longer combos, or the lower knockback to convert into an easier edgeguard. Sour Dtilt leads into Dancing Blade. Sour Utilt leads into itself or another aerial. Sour Jab can lead into Ftilt. Sour Uair can lead into Utilt or another Uair, etc, etc, etc. I still fail to see how people assume his sourspots are a total flaw.
• Has fantastic edgeguarding, only made better by tippers, sealing stocks off early on poor/predictable recoveries.

Think what you like, but results and proof are showing that your opinion is not popular any more, and very questionable.

I don't want to turn this into an argument, so if you want to discuss it further, come to the Marth boards, or PM me.

 

[Deleted member]

Great post, Bowserboy3 .

On your Mii Gunner comparison, the same can be said for back in the Brawl days. For a long time he was one of the most unpopular picks in competitive Brawl.

Then a player by the name of TheReflexWonder started getting top 16s/top 8s with the character out of nowhere, even at majors. It even lead to him rising out of the bottom tier during his hype, but then people began to realize it was Reflex's skill as a player rather than PT having any hidden potential. It was a furthered fact when he switched to maining and got vastly better and consistent results.

Besides that, Marth is definitely a contender for high tier at this point. People seriously cannot ignore his success right now, and I'm excited to see where he'll go in the meta especially with us being in the summer. I think he's already the best Fire Emblem character but that's just me.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm sorry Winter, but you just aren't backing yourself up. Going along the lines of "I said so, so you are wrong", without backing yourself up with facts or proof is not a good arguement. I've asked you to come up with some valid arguments, or proof, but you still refuse to cooperate. Go back up to this post - http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-...st-3-0-complete.379736/page-293#post-21235636 - and read all the links. Multiple players and backroomers are all coming to the opinion that Marth is a good character.

Thinkaman made a good post which is quite relevant here, let me link you to it - http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-443#post-21235750.

Basically, he says that, if say, somebody started winning tournaments and placing high with Mii Gunner, would that make him high tier? If nobody else is using the character, or if nobody else is managing to get results with the character, it waves a warning flag that actually, it's the player, not the character.

Let's put this into the perspective of Marth. Marth is placing high in big tournaments, and winning small tournaments, not just in one place mind, but all over the world. However, it isn't just one player doing this; it's by multiple players, which is supported by the character popularity poll. This shows/proves exactly the opposite of what is suggested with Mii Gunner; because multiple players are placing high with Marth, it shows that it is not the players, and that the character definitely has some sort of special qualities about them.

Marth has potential to be a low high/high mid tier character right about now, whether you like it or not. I'm still not totally on board yet, but every day, more and more proof is being found and dug up supporting this fact. What can you do?

In fact, if you want to see a good chunk of recent Marth games against characters he "loses to", check this link out - http://smashboards.com/threads/hero-kings-council-video-analysis.368553/page-17#post-21234513

To finish though, his theory is decent, and while it has noticeable flaws, what you fail to realise is that it has noticeable strengths too.

Put it this way:

• Tippered variants of all these moves are safe on shield (all aerials, Ftilt, Dtilt and Fsmash).
• Sourspots are only a flaw in terms of KO'ing power and shield safety. Sourspots have many positive uses, such as lower knockback for longer combos, or the lower knockback to convert into an easier edgeguard. Sour Dtilt leads into Dancing Blade. Sour Utilt leads into itself or another aerial. Sour Jab can lead into Ftilt. Sour Uair can lead into Utilt or another Uair, etc, etc, etc. I still fail to see how people assume his sourspots are a total flaw.
• Has fantastic edgeguarding, only made better by tippers, sealing stocks off early on poor/predictable recoveries.

Think what you like, but results and proof are showing that your opinion is not popular any more, and very questionable.

I don't want to turn this into an argument, so if you want to discuss it further, come to the Marth boards, or PM me.

I know he has noticeable strengths, or else he'd belike Zelda's level.

For the potential part, I actually agree with that, assuming you consider that 28-31. (Also for the whether you like it or not, I found this funny since I actually do despise Marth. Although I hate WFT too and I think she's underrated if anything, so that isn't a factor for why I think Marth is overrated)

Also, Mr. E and Pugwest are great players, as is False (Which I must add on, you said he is now mainly focusing on him now, but what he actually said is that he is dual maining Marth and Sheik, which is about what he was doing already. This misinformation suggests overhyping), and I'm not saying that none of that is the character, Marth isn't garbage or anything (Unless a green elf-like guy we all know of), but I feel like his results don't automatictially prove him high tier.

Also, not changing Feelick's words around since I know he thinks Marth is top 20 (lol), but him saying he's a high tier contender proves a good point. Marth could be a high tier, but could not be one either.

 

[Xandercosm]

(Unless a green elf-like guy we all know of)

On another note, what is it you have against poor Link?

 

[Bowserboy3]

On another note, what is it you have against poor Link?

It's exactly the same things he has against Marth; He looks solely at the characters weaknesses and blows them way out of proportion in comparison to their strengths.

Link honestly isn't so poor in my opinion. Bottom 14 or so at minimum if you ask me.

Sure, he's got some rather sluggish frame data, and has a predictable recovery. However, some of his frame data is really good (4 aerials with less than 12 landing lag frames is fantastic), and his kill power is phenomenal. His projectiles are actually very strong when played to their strengths and with a calculated usage.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Link definitely isn't a bad character, he has a lot of tech that Izaw showcased in his Art of Link videos, and he simply has very strong attacks with lots of range, a decent recovery (he even has 2 recovery options) and was given the ability to combo out of Down Throw.

 

[Deleted member]

Link's down throw is a pretty poor combo throw, though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Link definitely isn't a bad character, he has a lot of tech that Izaw showcased in his Art of Link videos, and he simply has very strong attacks with lots of range, a decent recovery (he even has 2 recovery options) and was given the ability to combo out of Down Throw.

I wouldn't call Link "not a bad character", so to speak. In comparison to the 57 other characters, he's still pretty lackluster. However, he is far from being one of the worst, or amongst the bottom 10.

Link's problem for me, is that he struggles in a similar fashion to Lucina. A lot of things Link can do, his other counterpart, Toon Link, can do better. However, Link does have more noticeable differences (range and power being the most important), and a far better combo throw, and has a better landing punish, which leads me into something below...

@Feelicks - It depends on how you class "poor". Sure, there is not much variance out of it, but considering Link can get a guaranteed follow up out of it until around 50%, I'd say that is pretty solid. Link's Dash Grab is actually very effective at catching landings. A good Link will down throw, Up Tilt/Up Smash however many times, and attempt to catch the opponent's landing with Dash Grab, where he can just put you back in the air, each time, you taking around 15-20% damage.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I can usually rack up from 20-40% depending on the opponent. D-throw to upsmash is pretty true on a lot of fast fallers among others, and if they try anything other than jumping away I can catch them with something else. It's still no Mario combo throw though since Link can't chase you in the air as well. Which is what drops Link on the list, dat mobility. To be fair, if Link had confirmed followups like TInk he'd be kind of silly

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Dead meat.

But I think an ideal time to restart this would be after CEO. So many things are happening now and I think this thread should be alive during the summer of smash

 

[Frihetsanka]

I second this sentiment. A lot has been happening that warrants updating this tier list. For one thing, Cloud at #5 seems way too low to me. I personally think he's #1 right now.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Yea, the list was outdated before it was finished

 

[Deleted member]

Really hoping that characters like don't get the short end of the stick by the next time we restart the thead. I've always felt like most people in here have heavily underrated her.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Totally forgot about this somehow

 

[Frihetsanka]

http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-479#post-21267478

If I'm reading the chart correctly, Palutena and King Dedede got results pretty much on par with Olimar, Wario, and Corrin. Based on results alone, she should be around tier 6 in the current tier list (somewhere around where Wii Fit Trainer and Samus are now, though Samus should be low/bottom tier). Of course, tiers don't quite work like that, but given the data it seems quite likely that Palutena deserves to be higher. King Dedede should be higher too, probably.

Some other interesting statistics: Mewtwo and Villager have somewhat middle-of-the-road results. Little Mac's results are pretty decent. Meta Knight stands out with the 9th best results while not being used all that much (about as much usage as Bowser and Peach). Marth getting similar results to Ryu and Pikachu. Captain Falcon 10th best results. Zelda getting better results than 11 characters.

A lot of those statistics are pretty unreliable. For instance, perhaps Zelda does well because some skilled player really enjoys playing Zelda. Perhaps Little Mac is pretty decent at a certain level of play and falls off at top level of play, etc etc. Still interesting data, nonetheless.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Based on results alone, she should be around tier 6 in the current tier list (somewhere around where Wii Fit Trainer and Samus are now, though Samus should be low/bottom tier).

I agree with pretty much everything you say in this. However, why on earth should Samus be bottom tier, might I ask? On results alone, perhaps, but her toolkit and options are better than at least 15 other characters alone, not to mention she actually has some results under her belt overall.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I agree with pretty much everything you say in this. However, why on earth should Samus be bottom tier, might I ask? On results alone, perhaps, but her toolkit and options are better than at least 15 other characters alone, not to mention she actually has some results under her belt overall.

Samus is bottom tier because she is and I say she is because I am right without backing stuff up -Most People in CCI/in General

 

[Frihetsanka]

I agree with pretty much everything you say in this. However, why on earth should Samus be bottom tier, might I ask? On results alone, perhaps, but her toolkit and options are better than at least 15 other characters alone, not to mention she actually has some results under her belt overall.

"Based on results alone" is literally the first thing you see in your quote.

I don't think results should be the solve factor when placing characters. Samus is probably low-mid.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Actually, I have a question for all here. As a player who is continuing to use Bayonetta, I am interested in seeing what you people think of her. Where would you place her overall?

Honestly, I think she could be potentially top 10, albeit near the bottom of the top 10. I'll explain my own thoughts if anyone replies...

 

[Tizio Random]

Actually, I have a question for all here. As a player who is continuing to use Bayonetta, I am interested in seeing what you people think of her. Where would you place her overall?

Honestly, I think she could be potentially top 10, albeit near the bottom of the top 10. I'll explain my own thoughts if anyone replies...

Bayonetta's still a solid top 15 in my book as of now, I rate her 11th in my tier list. She still has strong results and she also retains some of her strongest tools despite the nerf. Witch Time is used more and that's good, the character was always intended to kill that way.

 

[Deleted member]

is still top 15-20 for sure, imo.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I definitely feel that a solid case can still be made for Bayonetta being around 10th/11th on the tier list.

As others have mentioned, she still has the threat of Witch Time, which automatically applies instant psychological pressure (akin to having a fully charged Charge Shot or Shadow Ball, for example), especially at percent ranges from 65% upwards. Her combo game is still in tact, just minus her 0 - death potential (she can still 0 - death you, but it is far less realistic now, thankfully). Despite what some people may lead you to believe, her neutral is relatively good; not the best, but it's good, and gets jobs done. Nair camp for forcing approaches and tacking on damage, Bullet Climax on taller characters is a great harassment tool, Heel Slide converts into combos, as does Dtilt and Utilt. She can still KO, even without Witch Time, and at realistic percentages; Bair is safe when spaced right, and it KO's, and Dtilt into Uair is a KO confirm which KO's at around 110-120%. Her matchup spread is still fantastic, and Witch Time and Bat Within are tools that can win any match at the right situation.

I recently decided to switch from B Stick to Attack Stick for Bayonetta, and honestly, I feel this helps me play even 1.1.6 Bayonetta even more reliably, especially in regards to landing Dtilt in neutral quicker (and also not accidentally using Dsmash), as well as spacing her aerials more reliably (Bair spacing, or doing Fair 1 into Uair while being able to continue all forwards momentum with the joystick), and doing Dtilt to Uair combos/KO confirms reliably (as I can buffer the Uair during jumpsquat without accidentally using Usmash). B Stick was fantastic for doing quick and reliable DABK's. With DABK having no real attacking use now, I definitely feel Attack Stick is the way forward.

For reference, here is what I think of the top 10/11-ish, and where Bayonetta would be:

Spoiler: Top Characters

1:
2:
3 (relatively even):
4:
5:
and the rest I'll skip for now... But yeah.

 

[Deleted member]

Why do people think is the best character in the game all of a sudden?

He loses hard to at top level play (which is what is most indicative of a character's abilities), and has other matchups erring on the side of disadvantegeous as well. come to mind. also does deceptively well against him, even if he may ultimately lose.

 

[Jeronado]

I had Cloud at number one on one of my personal tierlists because of some matchup spreads for the character, that was the only reason. He probably loses more matchups than those spreads suggested at the time.

Might be a bit off topic, but I really wish we had better listed matchup spreads for a lot of characters. Would love to do something like this to make a tier list. Seems like the most objective way of going about it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Why do people think is the best character in the game all of a sudden?

He loses hard to at top level play (which is what is most indicative of a character's abilities), and has other matchups erring on the side of disadvantegeous as well. come to mind. also does deceptively well against him, even if he may ultimately lose.

If this is a message directed to me, I don't particularly think Cloud is the best character. However, I don't feel 100% comfortable with Diddy being number 1, as a few other people think. If anything, I think Sheik is probably the best choice for number 1 right now.

Basically, other than Bayonetta's placement, the rest of them aren't really ordered (hence why 5 of them are somewhat even).

 

[Frihetsanka]

It's probably a good sign that people aren't agreeing on who #1 is. ZeRo didn't even place Diddy or Sheik in top 5 (although he might be biased). From what I've seen, Cloud seems to be placed consistently high in most people's tier lists these days, and the number of Cloud players are growing. I haven't noticed a similar growth in Diddy Kong or Sheik.

I'm not really convinced that Diddy Kong or Sheik are #1 though. I could see a case being made for Ryu as #1 thanks to potential, although he lacks good enough results to warrant the #1 spot. Cloud is easy to play while being dominant and is generally somewhat overtuned. I think we're going to see more players picking up Cloud (even ZeRo played some Cloud).

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I currently have at #1, but he's pretty unstable with competitors like , , , and being just behind him in viability and results. I would honestly say these five are about on par for the #1 spot, but Diddy barely edges the other four out ATM.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I currently have at #1, but he's pretty unstable with competitors like , , , and being just behind him in viability and results. I would honestly say these five are about on par for the #1 spot, but Diddy barely edges the other four out ATM.

Definetly wouldn't say Rosalina even has a shot at being number 1, because she has noticeable counters/counterplay. Still a fantastic character, and definitely top 5 IMO, but no where near number 1 in the slightest.

---

But yes, the number 1 spot is definitely up for debate right now. It could be a multitude of characters. I agree with the idea Ryu could be number 1, but he doesn't have as much to shout about, like Diddy, Sheik or Cloud have. Ryu played at max potential is definitely better than Diddy, Cloud and Sheik, but those characters do get used more, likely because not many players are committed enough to learn Ryu properly. This makes it hard to decide on who is best, which, in general, I think is a good sign.

 

[Frihetsanka]

We need to keep something in mind: Players have been able to practice Sheik since Melee, Diddy Kong since Brawl, and Rosalina & Luma since the launch of Smash 4. Furthermore, both Diddy Kong and Sheik were previously #1 at different times, giving players a strong incentive to master them. Cloud and Ryu are fairly new, thus giving people less time mastering them. Granted, it also means that people are less used to the matchup, although in the case of Cloud, who is wildly popular, I don't think that's the case anymore.

So, let's assume the game won't be patched. Who will be considered #1 in a year from now, when people have gotten more time to master the characters? My bet is on either Cloud or Ryu. Right now Cloud looks like the stronger character, with more and more top players picking him up and getting good results with him, although Ryu has a lot of potential.