Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Frihetsanka]

I agree that results show proof (in general), although I'm not sure I agree it means the most, at least not when it comes to mid-tiers and low-tiers. Someone like Luigi might be played less because he's so similar to Mario, despite being a fairly good character (high-mid tier, I'd argue). Lucina might be in a similar situation to Marth. If Marth were nerfed hard and Lucina left as she is, we might see Marth players switching to Lucina and Lucina getting more results (although perhaps less results than Marth).

I think it was a mistake to not place Jigglypuff higher in the beginning of Melee. People underestimated her. I see where you're coming from though, and I admit there are some benefits to that method as well; for one thing, it reduces the risk of overhyping a character based on theory. It could lead to overhyping a character based on one player, though. See: Pikachu 5th place in the official Smash 4 tier list.

I agree that Lucina should not be as high as Marth, partly because he's getting better results, but also partly since his theory is better than Lucina's. I think they are similar enough for her to not be too far away from him, though. Some people are saying that Marth should be around Ike level. Is he really that much stronger than Lucina to be around one and a half tiers higher?

 

[Funbot28]

I'm wondering why you think should be in the echelon of high tier characters when the character hasn't done much to justify such a placement. Not mad, just curious.

I just find people underrate Corrin just because he/she got nerfed and many people assumed that the character got way worse. Corrin was already high tier (maybe top tier cause of the Counter jank) pre 1.15, but I still feel that the character is extremely viable now as most of the nerfs were just slaps on the wrist, and didn't really affect the character all that much. Ryo has started getting amazing results with her ever since 1.15, and I feel this will only grow over time (as Esam has started maining her as well).

 

[Bowserboy3]

But Lucina can never get results by the nature of her design. I think it is unreasonable to rank an inferior clone by their results, because the better one will always be the one taking them. Lucina should be ranked for how good she is, which is Marth with slightly less killpower and skill ceiling.

None of us are ranking Lucina solely by results. If we went off of that basis, she'd be in the bottom 10.

Of course, the Smashboards Ranking system isn't gospel, and is average at best, but it shows a good chunk in reality how many results each character gets. Viewing "All", Lucina is 11th from bottom, and in "Top 16", she's in 9th from bottom. Marth on the other hand in the same categories, is 22nd and 21st from the top. This is most likely to do with the fact that Marth is perceived better, but until Lucina actually gets any sort of notable result, and shows us WHY she's good, I just feel it's unrealistic to rank her any closer to Marth.

Heck, all she needs to do is do something remotely notable. Take Mr.E vs Nairo recently for example. If we pretend the Marth was Lucina, and the Lucina beat Nairo, that would have been the sort of evidence I am talking about.

Even then, looking at that video, Mr. E won because of Marth's unique traits, and it shows, and as such, in the same situations, Lucina wouldn't have KO'd Nairo. Mr.E got an early Dancing Blade KO at the ledge because it tipped. He KO'd ZSS near the ledge with Fsmash at 30% because he tipped it. He managed to KO Nairo's Robin off stage at one point using tipper Fair, and it just KO'd. Most of his KO's came from Marth's unique trait; the tipper. If you are saying that Lucina should be ranked closer to Marth because there's not much difference between them, if we switched Marth with Lucina in these positions, she just wouldn't have got the same outcome. While you can argue that at high percents, Lucina can KO more reliably than Marth due to her Fsmash being more reliable, that's not the gameplan. Because Marth and Lucina share the same frame data, throwing Fsmash out at that percent is risky, and as such, it's better to try and get the opponent off stage to convert into an edgeguard, or just rack up their damage to a point where Up Throw will KO. In this situation, most times, it doesn't matter if you get a sourspot at all, because you're just trying to space out, where Marth and Lucina have exactly the same options and suffer in the same areas. However, once again, Marth has another advantage. If the opponent shields, and he lands a tipper, he is safe. Lucina still isn't safe, and neither is a sourspot from Marth. To add insult to injury, at this percent, when you are spacing out, tacking on as much damage as you can, if Marth lands a tipper Fair, Bair or Nair near the ledge, the opponent can be KO'd before Up Throw will KO. With Lucina, they will not be KO'd. These are the main reasons Lucina is lower than Marth.

Lucina is where she is now, probably mostly because of how good Marth is. But even so, we cannot rank her so close to Marth, because she just doesn't perform as well as him, or even the characters around him. Regardless of the fact that Marth exists and is better, Lucina is still a separate character, has different matchup spreads, and gets her own results, which we should remember.

I think it's extremely generous that Lucina is where she is now, considering the points I made about results etc.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Regardless of the fact that Marth exists and is better, Lucina is still a separate character, has different matchup spreads, and gets her own results, which we should remember.

Indeed, Lucina is a seperate character and should be judged based on her own merit, not Marth's. The "results" part is somewhat problematic though, since it seems likely that many potential Lucina players are opting to go with Marth instead. If Marth were nerfed tomorrow, many might switch to Lucina and her results would be better (although probably not as good as Marth's are now). That's the issue with going by results: One of the main reasons her results are so much worse than Marth's is that Marth steals her thunder, so to speak. With Marth out of the picture, I suspect Lucina's results would be better. With that being said, your point about Marth winning games that Lucina would likely lose is compelling, and I don't think Lucina deserves to be all that much higher than she is now (maybe top of tier 6 or bottom tier 5, at best, and even then the characters above her now are not even that bad).

 

[Bowserboy3]

Frihetsanka - This is an interesting point of debate which pops up from time to time. Even though Marth performs better than Lucina, and is used way more than her, Lucina isn't a bad character. She's still a solid character.

But also...

With that being said, your point about Marth winning games that Lucina would likely lose is compelling

I don't know what way my previous post came across as, but I was just explaining some examples of if you put Lucina in Marth's place, she wouldn't have KO'd. I hope that's what you understood it as.

On the topic of losing etc, in general, if Marth specifically loses a matchup, Lucina loses it as well. In almost all matchups, Marth does do slightly better, but it's only minor (as in, if Marth wins, Lucina tends to win too, or at least goes even, but Marth has a slight bigger advantage than Lucina would for example). Even then, there are a couple of matchups where Lucina is the one who does slightly better, namely Pikachu and Dedede. There isn't, per say, a matchup that Marth wins and Lucina loses, or vice versa. They have matchup differences, unlike Pit and Dark Pit, but the differences aren't quite as drastic as Mario and Doc for example.

 

[Deleted member]

I just find people underrate Corrin just because he/she got nerfed and many people assumed that the character got way worse. Corrin was already high tier (maybe top tier cause of the Counter jank) pre 1.15, but I still feel that the character is extremely viable now as most of the nerfs were just slaps on the wrist, and didn't really affect the character all that much. Ryo has started getting amazing results with her ever since 1.15, and I feel this will only grow over time (as Esam has started maining her as well).

I'm pretty sure everybody knows the nerfs did little to affect Corrin's viability.

Ryo's results with the character aren't particularly impressive. He still uses mainly Ike, just secondaries Corrin. Only solo Corrins I can think of right now are Cosmos and Ryuga, and they don't travel often which is hurting the character's high level representation at the moment. They get good results in their respective regions though.

ESAM also still mains Pikachu.

The character has some dumb stuff, but at this current point in the meta they haven't done much to justify being a high tier character. and are better characters.

 

[Bowserboy3]

ESAM also still mains Pikachu.

Off topic a moment, I don't know why it took ESAM this long for him to find a character to use against . He's always said he hates this matchup for Pikachu, and states it to be potentially his worst matchup, which I can partially believe. Sure works against Mario, but has always been decent against Mario. Even before Corrin, there was the option of . He could have picked up a character like this ages before Corrin.

What's more, we all know ESAM loves going deep off stage and edge guarding (which is actually really hype to watch, I love watching his Pikachu when he plays 100% like this). Surely, with a playstyle like that, Marth would be a better choice for him, who has better recovery and off stage presence. Corrin isn't exactly known for his off stage presence, or recovery, so it seems a little odd going by his playstyle, him choosing Corrin, who is almost the exact opposite to Pikachu (slow, below average recovery, below average off stage presence). I think even could have worked out for him in this regard.

With all this in mind, I just wonder, what makes him choose Corrin over characters like Cloud, Marth or Meta Knight, specifically for the Mario matchup?

 

[Deleted member]

Off topic a moment, I don't know why it took ESAM this long for him to find a character to use against . He's always said he hates this matchup for Pikachu, and states it to be potentially his worst matchup, which I can partially believe. Sure works against Mario, but has always been decent against Mario. Even before Corrin, there was the option of . He could have picked up a character like this ages before Corrin.

What's more, we all know ESAM loves going deep off stage and edge guarding (which is actually really hype to watch, I love watching his Pikachu when he plays 100% like this). Surely, with a playstyle like that, Marth would be a better choice for him, who has better recovery and off stage presence. Corrin isn't exactly known for his off stage presence, or recovery, so it seems a little odd going by his playstyle, him choosing Corrin, who is almost the exact opposite to Pikachu (slow, below average recovery, below average off stage presence). I think even could have worked out for him in this regard.

With all this in mind, I just wonder, what makes him choose Corrin over characters like Cloud, Marth or Meta Knight, specifically for the Mario matchup?

Vertical juggles. I guess.

I'm still perplexed he doesn't pick Marth. Especially since he thinks he's a good character now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Vertical juggles. I guess.

I'm still perplexed he doesn't pick Marth. Especially since he thinks he's a good character now.

Marth does seem more befitting to his playstyle at least. He's rather quick, and has a good off stage presence. While he can't do anything crazy off stage like Pikachu can, he's certainly a threat off stage, unlike Corrin. It does seem odd him picking Corrin. Who knows.

Also, I only just realised that only one of Corrin's aerials auto-cancel; his Fair. I thought that at least 3 of them auto-cancelled... apparently not.

 

[Deleted member]

Corrin's dair can autocancel.

That's.. something.

 

[Hero_2_All]

Ehh with the whole best FE debate all 3 Ike, Marth, and Corrin have their own little advantages over each other, and one or two large advantages over the others. From a pure data perspective Ike is somewhat outclassed by Corrin and Marth, but results wise Ike does the best. It's honestly really hard to tell, but Corrin needs to get more rep before we can really get an Idea for an objectively best FE character. Also Mr. E vs Cosmos happened last night with 2-1 Mr. E winning. Game one cosmos won with a JV 2, game 2 Mr E had control, game 3 Cosmos SD'ed with 40% vs Mr. E 0% last stock. Cosmos seemed to then chock and lost to Awestin (a ness main) in losers while being ahead for the vast majority of all 3 games. Awestin then faced Mr. E took game one and lost the next two handily. Shock wave 84 went to Mr. E and Cosmos got 5th (his lowest placing since picking up Corrin, I mean the previous low was 4th , and the rest of his shockwaves with Corrin are 1st place). Honestly though Mr. E just has more experience as a player, and I was surprised that Cosmos gave him such a run for his money in such an even mu (regional boss vs national threat kinda goes that way). I'm really looking forward to seeing how far Cosmos can take Corrin, and maybe he can do well at CEO (which is unlikely as to how stacked it is, but hey crazier stuff has happened). Side note Ryuga was in the stream chat and said he was on Hiatus and probs be back after CEO.

 

[Hero_2_All]

Marth does seem more befitting to his playstyle at least. He's rather quick, and has a good off stage presence. While he can't do anything crazy off stage like Pikachu can, he's certainly a threat off stage, unlike Corrin. It does seem odd him picking Corrin. Who knows.

Also, I only just realised that only one of Corrin's aerials auto-cancel; his Fair. I thought that at least 3 of them auto-cancelled... apparently not.

Ya only Corrin's F-air auto cancels in SH. Corrin's aerials just have allot less landing lag than Ike or marth's. Yet, with its lower dmg it has only slightly better shield safety than marth with corrin n-air being -7, marth F-air being -8 tippered (most common aerials both use in nuetral). Ike though like Corrin is -7 on shield with his n-air. Corrin and Ike have very similar shield safety values even though Corrin has less dmg per hit and more combo potential.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Ehh with the whole best FE debate all 3 Ike, Marth, and Corrin have their own little advantages over each other, and one or two large advantages over the others. From a pure data perspective Ike is somewhat outclassed by Corrin and Marth, but results wise Ike does the best. It's honestly really hard to tell, but Corrin needs to get more rep before we can really get an Idea for an objectively best FE character. Also Mr. E vs Cosmos happened last night with 2-1 Mr. E winning. Game one cosmos won with a JV 2, game 2 Mr E had control, game 3 Cosmos SD'ed with 40% vs Mr. E 0% last stock. Cosmos seemed to then chock and lost to Awestin (a ness main) in losers while being ahead for the vast majority of all 3 games. Awestin then faced Mr. E took game one and lost the next two handily. Shock wave 84 went to Mr. E and Cosmos got 5th (his lowest placing since picking up Corrin, I mean the previous low was 4th , and the rest of his shockwaves with Corrin are 1st place). Honestly though Mr. E just has more experience as a player, and I was surprised that Cosmos gave him such a run for his money in such an even mu (regional boss vs national threat kinda goes that way). I'm really looking forward to seeing how far Cosmos can take Corrin, and maybe he can do well at CEO (which is unlikely as to how stacked it is, but hey crazier stuff has happened). Side note Ryuga was in the stream chat and said he was on Hiatus and probs be back after CEO.

I don't think any of us are comparing Corrin, Ike and Marth to see who is the best. It just so happens that two different topics are going on involving them.

But on that topic, personally, I see it like this. Marth appears to be doing more lately and is showing potential, Corrin IMO has the most hidden/untapped potential, but I think Ike is currently the best of the three. It will be interesting to see how it develops.

Also, I am not entirely sure if you was referring to this, but I wouldn't call Mr E a "national threat" just yet. I do agree with ZeRo that him and Pugwest are on par for best Marth though.

 

[Hero_2_All]

I don't think any of us are comparing Corrin, Ike and Marth to see who is the best. It just so happens that two different topics are going on involving them.

But on that topic, personally, I see it like this. Marth appears to be doing more lately and is showing potential, Corrin IMO has the most hidden/untapped potential, but I think Ike is currently the best of the three. It will be interesting to see how it develops.

Oh ya thats completely correct I was just going at it from a frame data perspective. Either way there is now way to really tell atm.

 

[Routa]

Ike is pretty much only FE character that has good CQC. I think that Ike is overall slightly better than Marth and Corrin (note I also count Doubles where Ike is best character from the FE cast followed by Corrin and Robin).

 

[Deleted member]

Marth's CQC options are decent. Jab, ftilt (when tippered, it's godlike) and dtilt are all good.

 

[Hero_2_All]

Marth's CQC options are decent. Jab, ftilt (when tippered, it's godlike) and dtilt are all good.

Well tipper tilts are mid range options. CQC is like right in their face... like grab range.

 

[Scamper52596]

- Between and .
+ Behind .
+ Between and .

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm uneasy about the few + votes has gotten. What reason has she got to move up a few spaces?

 

[SCOAKS5]

in front of
between &
between &

 

[Deleted member]

I'm uneasy about the few + votes has gotten. What reason has she got to move up a few spaces?

People think she isn't the worst character in the game because in tournament, players keep losing to Zelda players since they refuse to DI away from her hoo-hah.

 

[Browny]

UPDATED

Marth, Lucas and Palutena were voted the most to move, so they all went up by the average of their votes.

Outside of sheik being too high and DHD being too low, I think it turned out well.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

*insert comment about being too low that will probably be ioverlooked because people ignore that he's still getting results*

 

[ToluDude]

+1 Little Mac
+1 Ike

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

People think she isn't the worst character in the game because in tournament, players keep losing to Zelda players since they refuse to DI away from her hoo-hah.

Except from what I can recall......even if they DI away, it's actually guaranteed as long as Zelda doesn't have too much rage, I will say right now, THE WINDOW IS VERY TIGHT and you have to be near frame perfect so getting it consistently can be difficult, but it IS garunteed.

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATED

Marth, Lucas and Palutena were voted the most to move, so they all went up by the average of their votes.

Outside of sheik being too high and DHD being too low, I think it turned out well.

The list is pretty solid overall in my opinion, I'm overall glad with how it turned out.

In regards to the two characters you mentioned, I can accept Sheik's position. In reality, she's still very good. I think she definitely warrants being in tier 1, especially after her main players have continued to place high in tournament, despite her nerfs.

My personal tier 1 (including only the characters currently in our tier 1) would be one of these two orders:


or


I'm unsure on where exactly to place Sheik, because I feel that she is definitely still a strong character, but how strong is what is taking me time to decide. I main Rosalina, and I know her main troubles inside out, so I'm unsure of her being 3rd best. I also secondary ZSS, so I feel unsure whether she's better than Rosalina or not, but right now, I feel not, so she wouldn't be 3rd. And then we come back to Sheik, who while I feel could be 3rd best, I feel her disadvantage (general KO'ing trouble) is more noticeable than Rosalina or ZSS's troubles. But she still has been performing more than both Rosalina and ZSS, so yeah... ordering those three is tough for me.

I definitely think Diddy is the best right now, with Cloud behind.

In regard to DHD, meh, I don't know a whole lot about him, but I just feel that, if Shulk is still that far down, DHD should stay down too. I mean his placement now isn't that poor (unlike Palutena's before the final update, for example).

 

[Deleted member]

Pretty decent list overall. I'm glad with how it turned out. Wish were higher and lower but you can't always get what you want.

 

[Frihetsanka]

This tier list looks really solid to me overall now! There is still some room for improvements, but that is to be expected.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I definitely feel like this is the strongest/most reliable list we've come to create so far. There are far less anomalies, or out of place characters (or, at least, the out of place characters aren't noticeably out of place... remembers in the previous version... shudders).

 

[Deleted member]

I will say this.

being so bloody low (tier 5) disappoints me. He's done a ton recently and his metagame is starting to develop at a pretty alarming rate. We'll see if this'll continue when ScAtt goes to CEO and when Kamemushi goes to EVO.

He also has a top 5 neutral, imo.

 

[Phuckyew]

Why did so many people up vote ? Did somebody place well with her?

 

[Deleted member]

Why did so many people up vote ? Did somebody place well with her?

She's gotten top 16 or top 8 placings for a long time now, actually.

 

[Plesioth]

+1
+1
+1
+1
-1

Nvm: I'm a idiot

 

[Deleted member]

+1
+1
+1
+1
-1

The list is finished. :/

 

[Tocaraca2]

+1
+1

 

[jespoke]

Like i feared both and rose by more than i would have liked, and just had unfortunate timing with the popular opinion on him rising lately but too late. I didn't even notice he was that low.

 

[Tizio Random]

I also think that a won a large regional tournament, I don't remember who, however. I think belong to tier 7 here but ok.

Well, guys, we did it! It was a long and exhausting journey but at last we have our new community tier list. And it's pretty good, also. I'm certain that the next one we'll see rise, at least.

EDIT: I see this is a popular opinion lol

 

[sRocky]

+1 Yoshi
+1 Game and Watch
+1 Kirby
+1 Falco
+1 Lucas

 

[Deleted member]

Will people stop voting?

THE LIST IS COMPLETE.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

+3
+1
-1
This is what I think. It's not my votes just what I think should've been changed. Diddy isn't the best and Roy isn't that bad. Also pika is way better.