Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Deleted member]

Still believe Kirby is low tier.

He's anti-meta, but he ain't good. Not solo viable imo.

 

[Y2Kay]

Kirby isn't good.

His bad range, mobility, kill power, and lack of a projectile are all really bad attributes of his.

If you have the ability to really lame Kirby out, you can really see how bad of a character he is. But if you only watch kirby fight characters like: he looks like a mid tier character. Though he does well in super specfic match ups, he does get beaten really hard in others like:

Kirby has a niche that will always keep him relevant as a counter pick character, but he lacks the consistency to become a serious threat to the meta.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby isn't good.

His bad range, mobility, kill power, and lack of a projectile are all really bad attributes of his.

If you have the ability to really lame Kirby out, you can really see how bad of a character he is. But if you only watch kirby fight characters like: he looks like a mid tier character. Though he does well in super specfic match ups, he does get beaten really hard in others like:

Kirby has a niche that will always keep him relevant as a counter pick character, but he lacks the consistency to become a serious threat to the meta.

Don't forget he gets meme'd on pretty hard by and , plus has iffy matchups with superheavies like and or characters usually considered worse than him like .

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Except his kill power isn't bad? And you should consider his strengths as well.

Yoshi was considered tough before, but now it's not so bad if you play the MU right(keep in mind this is what I get from others)
Like I said he doesn't get destroyed by anyone.....maybe Sonic and to a lesser extent Luigi still, but he is capable of essentially the entire cast, wether or not he's solo viable.

He just needs to put in more work then others to succeed ALONE, which is why it's best to have a secondary or two.


Though it makes me seriously curious what MikeKirby thinks his MU spread is like, been seeing it for a lot of other characters and I want to see his opinion.

 

[Furret24]

Kirby isn't good.

His bad range, mobility, kill power, and lack of a projectile are all really bad attributes of his.

If you have the ability to really lame Kirby out, you can really see how bad of a character he is. But if you only watch kirby fight characters like: he looks like a mid tier character. Though he does well in super specfic match ups, he does get beaten really hard in others like:

Kirby has a niche that will always keep him relevant as a counter pick character, but he lacks the consistency to become a serious threat to the meta.

Honestly, Kirby's kill power isn't all that bad. He has a solid kill throw, all of his smashes are top 20 in kill power of their respective types of moves while also not having too much lag or dumb sourspots (dair also has the potential to combo into them even if it isn't the most reliable setup), his bair has good raw kill power offstage, and his dair is very reliable for gimping. While situational, Rock can also kill early off hard reads. Also situational, but Inhale, depending on the opponent, can give you a good killing neutral special like Shadow Ball, Charge Shot, or Shield Breaker.

Kirby's killing game is far from the best, but it certainly isn't bad.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby doesn't have bad killing ability but the problem is none of his finishers are easy to land due to aforementioned bad range and lack of safety on shield.

but meh.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Don't forget he gets meme'd on pretty hard by and , plus has iffy matchups with superheavies like and or characters usually considered worse than him like .

Kirby isn't good.

His bad range, mobility, kill power, and lack of a projectile are all really bad attributes of his.

If you have the ability to really lame Kirby out, you can really see how bad of a character he is. But if you only watch kirby fight characters like: he looks like a mid tier character. Though he does well in super specfic match ups, he does get beaten really hard in others like:

Kirby has a niche that will always keep him relevant as a counter pick character, but he lacks the consistency to become a serious threat to the meta.

Memes are good

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

To sum up my thoughts about this discussion:

Kirby's not that good. Simply put, he can do some serious damage and kill well once he gets in, but getting in is very difficult due to his short range, lack of projectiles unless you copy one, and no great aerial approach options (D-air and B-air are kinda good). He's a good character for certain high tier matchups but mediocre or bad at others, and so for these reasons, Kirby as he is currently will never be higher than low tier.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Interesting to see more people put him at low tier, some say Mid, some say lower-mid, just means it's tough overall to find his placement.......or any other midish tier character for that matter, but I personally think he's slightly less then mid, closer to low-mid, but by no means bad.

He's in that Decentish to ok area, and that's perfectly fine. I think he has what it takes to be a little......semi-relavent, but it's better to play someone else solo if you wanna not have to work so hard.....or at least have a good secondary for sonic/Luigi/MK.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Kirby doesn't have bad killing ability but the problem is none of his finishers are easy to land due to aforementioned bad range and lack of safety on shield.

but meh.

A nice example of this was Kid Goggles vs Mr.R final set

 

[Molk]

+1

In my personal opinion i think G&W has the tools necessary to stay in tier 4, despite the recent downvotes, and here are my reasons.

G&W's advantage state is extremely good, and there's absolutely no way to overlook it, first off, he has many lengthy, highly damaging combos, that aren't difficult at all to get going due to the fact that many of G&W's moves are capable of comboing into each other to different levels of reliability. Outside of his Down Throw combos, G&W is also capable of starting combos with USmash, Nair (all 4 hits are capable of comboing into other moves, even taking into account the landing lag of the move), Uair, Bair (both the landing hitbox and the aerial hitbox can start combos at low percentages) Uthrow (used for comboing fastfallers at low percentages where Dthrow Utilt doesn't connect) and even Utilt (hitboxes are small but raw Utilt is still capable of starting combos in theory, even when both hits stop linking together, both individual hits have followups).

Outside of G&W's combo game he's also very good at vortexing the opponent once he gets the upper hand, once the opponent is in the air against Mr. Game and Watch, it can become very difficult to land, his Nair and Uair are some of the best juggling tools in the game thanks to the former's high damage output when all hits connect and the latter's windboxes (not to mention both can lead into even more combos). Dash Attack is incredibly good at punishing landings due to the distance it travels, its fast startup, and its long lasting hitbox, and Usmash is quite powerful, and is almost impossible for a landing opponent to directly challenge. Even if the opponent manages to land on a platform, G&W is more than capable of applying platform pressure with his aerials, and can potentially shieldpoke the opponent with say Nair if they sit in shield on a platform for too long. Because of this, G&W isn't just capable of comboing the opponent for large amounts of damage, but he's also capable of pressing his advantage afterwards and making it extremely difficult for the opponent to reset to neutral after the initial combo ends.

G&W is also (in my opinion) an amazing edgeguarder, and when played optimally is capable of both making sure the opponent is incapable of returning to the stage, and reading and punishing ledge getups quite effectively. Fair and Bair are both quite good at WOPing opponents due to their disjoints (especially Bair, considering it true combos into itself at lower percentages). Up B possesses decent knockback, a long lasting hitbox, a fast travel speed, and has invincibility frames, allowing G&W to snipe opponents that are trying to recover with relative impunity due to the move's invincibility frames and speed making it difficult to effectively challenge, and because of the moves decent knockback it's capable of gimping opponents with poor recoveries, or even KOing opponents outright near the side blastzone. Dair is a disjointed, decently powerful spike, that's relatively safe to use due to G&W's great recovery making it easy to get back to the stage afterwards despite the move being a stall then fall, and the late hitbox is still capable of stage spiking an opponent. Speaking of Stage Spiking, both Bair and Up B are excellent tools for stage spiking opponents as well. On top of all this, G&W's excellent recovery due to his aforementioned Up B, high air speed, and low falling speed make it quite safe for G&W to go deep when edgeguarding with little risk of SDing.

As for on stage edgeguarding/ledgeguarding, Dash Attack's long lasting hitbox makes it very good at two framing opponents trying to recover to the ledge, Down Smash hits below the ledge as well, making it another viable option in that regard. Down Smash is also very good at covering ledge getups when spaced properly, with the sweetspot being very powerful and potentially capable of KOing an opponent trying to get up, while the sourspot can either send the opponent, back offstage at a very poor angle for recovery, or can force the opponent into a teching situation onstage. Up Smash is another option for ledgeguarding that can potentially KO a recovering opponent, and because of the move's very low amount of endlag, it's rather safe to attempt when ledgeguarding, and can even be used as a frame trap to bait the opponent into getting hit by one of G&W's other attacks. Although it might not be the best option, bacon isn't terrible at the ledge either if spaced correctly (optimal spacing imo is so that it's spaced so the pan is one ledgeroll distance away from the ledge), the hitboxes from the bacon might not be immediately threatening, but they last quite a long time and can be quite irritating to get past when trying to get up from the ledge, the bacon can either hit the opponent outright, potentially allowing G&W to follow up and knock the opponent off the stage once again, or make the opponent want to shield once they get up, allowing G&W to potentially run in and get a free grab. The positioning of the pan one roll distance away from the ledge covers the roll option quite nicely, as if the opponent attempts to ledgeroll, there's a good chance they will be hit by the pan and be knocked back offstage.

On top of G&W's advantage state being great, i also believe that he has multiple matchups against characters that are currently listed above him that are either even or in his favor, as an example G&W has been seen as a solid pick against both of the Mario brothers, with many players on both sides expressing the opinion that G&W wins at least slightly. Some top players have even gone out and said that their mains struggle against G&W. For example, ESAM considers G&W one of Pika's few losing MUs, and FOW considers G&W a bad MU for Ness too.

Going away from G&W's positive traits, i also believe that many of the negative things mentioned in this thread about the character are a bit overexaggerated, I'll explain which statements i think are overblown, and why.

First off, i've seen many people say that G&W has trouble KOing, personally, i believe that G&W's issues with sealing the stock are overblown. Toot toot cannot be overlooked, despite how unreliable people seem to think it is (personally, i think as long as you know the percentages, can execute the combo well and account for rage+staling it works perfectly fine, but maybe i'm missing something here). Outside of Toot Toot, G&W has other functional kill confirms out of some of his other attacks that are (imo) reasonable to land in an actual match. Both the first hit of Nair and the first hit of Uair are capable of comboing into Uair at KO percentages, and at the very least the first hit of Uair is also capable of comboing into Fsmash and Dsmash at KO percents as well, with the sweetspots being possible to land for both moves. Near the ledge, Dthrow footstool Dair is also capable of netting some early stocks, especially against characters with poor vertical recovery. I feel like the flaws of G&W's raw KO moves are a bit overexaggerated as well. Usmash is an incredibly safe move in general due to the partial invincibility it has during the startup, as well as the low amount of endlag, while also being a very potent KO move, it's compable to MK's Fsmash in this regard in my personal opinion. Fsmash and Dsmash also have somewhat low endlag for smash attacks and the sweetspots are at the very least powerful enough to do their job. As mentioned earlier, Down Smash's sourspot also has legitimate use despite how much people like to hate on it due to the horizontal semispike angle it sends opponents at. As mentioned before, G&W's excellent edgeguarding is another good way to seal out stocks.


Another thing i see said about G&W quite a bit is that his neutral is horrendous. Once, again, i feel like G&W's issues in the neutral are a bit overexaggerated. His neutral isn't amazing by any means, but he's most certainly not as helpless as some people say he is imo. His mobility isn't bad enough to be a major hindrance like it is in the case of characters such as Kirby or Ganondorf. He's tied for the fastest dash to neutral in the game, and has one of the fastest dash to shields in the whole game as well, giving him an (imo) excellent foxtrot that improves his ground game quite a bit. Contrary to what has been said in this thread before, G&W does, in fact, have options that are safeish on shield, Usmash has a significant (+4) frame advantage on shield drop, and all of sweetspot Fsmash, sweetspot Dsmash, Rapid Jab, Fair, and Bair can be difficult to punish when spaced optimally. Jab 1 is an *ok* poke in my opinion due to its disjoint, very fast FAF, and ability to lead into a non guaranteed grab. It should also be noted that, in my opinion, while G&W might not be the best at approaching opponents himself, he's also a character that's quite good at punishing opponents attempts to approach thanks to his large amount of disjointed hitboxes and invincible, low endlag, Usmash.

Sorry about the wall of text x_x.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

See....this is what I like, a person who PLAYS THE CHARACTER and has EXTENSIVE KNOWLEDGE knows what he's talking about.

Just look at that information, I doubt anyone who doesn't play the character would even know half of that stuff.
I said this before and I'll say it again.
Get GOOD knowledge of a character before talking about them because believe me, you don't always know what your talking about, and could easily spread the slightest misinformation. If you don't play them, that already makes you limited on what you know.

Molk , props to you man, great information, keep stuff like this up.

 

[Deleted member]

Molk holy ****. That is the most detailed response I've seen in this entire thread. Amazing post. Really need to study more characters in this game.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

+1

In my personal opinion i think G&W has the tools necessary to stay in tier 4, despite the recent downvotes, and here are my reasons.

G&W's advantage state is extremely good, and there's absolutely no way to overlook it, first off, he has many lengthy, highly damaging combos, that aren't difficult at all to get going due to the fact that many of G&W's moves are capable of comboing into each other to different levels of reliability. Outside of his Down Throw combos, G&W is also capable of starting combos with USmash, Nair (all 4 hits are capable of comboing into other moves, even taking into account the landing lag of the move), Uair, Bair (both the landing hitbox and the aerial hitbox can start combos at low percentages) Uthrow (used for comboing fastfallers at low percentages where Dthrow Utilt doesn't connect) and even Utilt (hitboxes are small but raw Utilt is still capable of starting combos in theory, even when both hits stop linking together, both individual hits have followups).

Outside of G&W's combo game he's also very good at vortexing the opponent once he gets the upper hand, once the opponent is in the air against Mr. Game and Watch, it can become very difficult to land, his Nair and Uair are some of the best juggling tools in the game thanks to the former's high damage output when all hits connect and the latter's windboxes (not to mention they can lead to even more combos). Dash Attack is incredibly good at punishing landings due to the distance it travels, its fast startup, and its long lasting hitbox, and Usmash is quite powerful, and is almost impossible for a landing opponent to directly challenge. Even if the opponent manages to land on a platform, G&W is more than capable of applying platform pressure with his aerials, and can potentially shieldpoke the opponent with say Nair if they sit in shield on a platform for too long. Because of this, G&W isn't just capable of comboing the opponent for large amounts of damage, but he's also capable of pressing his advantage afterwards and making it extremely difficult for the opponent to reset to neutral after the initial combo ends.

G&W is also (in my opinion) an amazing edgeguarder, and when played optimally is capable of both making sure the opponent is incapable of returning to the stage, and reading and punishing ledge getups quite effectively. Fair and Bair are both quite good at WOPing opponents due to their disjoints (especially Bair, considering it true combos into itself at lower percentages). Up B possesses decent knockback, a long lasting hitbox, a fast travel speed, and has invincibility frames, allowing G&W to snipe opponents that are trying to recover with relative impunity due to the move's invincibility frames and speed making it difficult to effectively challenge, and because of the moves decent knockback it's capable of gimping opponents with poor recoveries, or even KOing opponents outright near the side blastzone. Dair is a disjointed, decently powerful spike, that's relatively safe to use due to G&W's great recovery making it easy to get back to the stage afterwards despite the move being a stall then fall, and the late hitbox is still capable of stage spiking an opponent. Speaking of Stage Spiking, both Bair and Up B are excellent tools for stage spiking opponents as well. On top of all this, G&W's excellent recovery due to his aforementioned Up B, high air speed, and low falling speed make it quite safe for G&W to go deep when edgeguarding with little risk of SDing.

As for on stage edgeguarding/ledgeguarding, Dash Attack's long lasting hitbox makes it very good at two framing opponents trying to recover to the ledge, Down Smash hits below the ledge as well, making it another viable option in that regard. Down Smash is also very good at covering ledge getups when spaced properly, with the sweetspot being very powerful and potentially capable of KOing an opponent trying to get up, while the sourspot can either send the opponent, back offstage at a very poor angle for recovery, or can force the opponent into a teching situation onstage. Up Smash is another option for ledgeguarding that can potentially KO a recovering opponent, and because of the move's very low amount of endlag, it's rather safe to attempt when ledgeguarding, and can even be used as a frame trap to bait the opponent into getting hit by one of G&W's other attacks. Although it might not be the best option, bacon isn't terrible at the ledge either if spaced correctly (optimal spacing imo is so that it's spaced so the pan is one ledgeroll distance away from the ledge), the hitboxes from the bacon might not be immediately threatening, but they last quite a long time and can be quite irritating to get past when trying to get up from the ledge, the bacon can either hit the opponent outright, potentially allowing G&W to follow up and knock the opponent off the stage once again, or make the opponent want to shield once they get up, allowing G&W to potentially run in and get a free grab. The positioning of the pan one roll distance away from the ledge covers the roll option quite nicely, as if the opponent attempts to ledgeroll, there's a good chance they will be hit by the pan and be knocked back offstage.

On top of G&W's advantage state being great, i also believe that he has multiple matchups against characters that are currently listed above him that are either even or in his favor, as an example G&W has been seen as a solid pick against both of the Mario brothers, with many players on both sides expressing the opinion that G&W wins at least slightly. Some top players have even gone out and said that their mains struggle against G&W. For example, ESAM considers G&W one of Pika's few losing MUs, and FOW considers G&W a bad MU for Ness too.

Going away from G&W's positive traits, i also believe that many of the negative things mentioned in this thread about the character are a bit overexaggerated, I'll explain which statements i think are overblown, and why.

First off, i've seen many people say that G&W has trouble KOing, personally, i believe that G&W's issues with sealing the stock are overblown. Toot toot cannot be overlooked, despite how unreliable people seem to think it is (personally, i think as long as you know the percentages, can execute the combo well and account for rage+staling it works perfectly fine, but maybe i'm missing something here). Outside of Toot Toot, G&W has other functional kill confirms out of some of his other attacks that are (imo) reasonable to land in an actual match. Both the first hit of Nair and the first hit of Uair are capable of comboing into Uair at KO percentages, and at the very least the first hit of Uair is also capable of comboing into Fsmash and Dsmash at KO percents as well, with the sweetspots being possible to land for both moves. Near the ledge, Dthrow footstool Dair is also capable of netting some early stocks, especially against characters with poor vertical recovery. I feel like the flaws of G&W's raw KO moves are a bit overexaggerated as well. Usmash is an incredibly safe move in general due to the partial invincibility it has during the startup, as well as the low amount of endlag, while also being a very potent KO move, it's compable to MK's Fsmash in this regard in my personal opinion. Fsmash and Dsmash also have somewhat low endlag for smash attacks and the sweetspots are at the very least powerful enough to do their job. As mentioned earlier, Down Smash's sourspot also has legitimate use despite how much people like to hate on it due to the horizontal semispike angle it sends opponents at. As mentioned before, G&W's excellent edgeguarding is another good way to seal out stocks.


Another thing i see said about G&W quite a bit is that his neutral is horrendous. Once, again, i feel like G&W's issues in the neutral are a bit overexaggerated. His neutral isn't amazing by any means, but he's most certainly not as helpless as some people say he is imo. His mobility isn't bad enough to be a major hinderance like it is in the case of characters such as Kirby or Ganondorf. He's tied for the fastest dash to neutral in the game, and has one of the fastest dash to shields in the whole game as well, giving him an (imo) excellent foxtrot that improves his ground game quite a bit. Contrary to what has been said in this thread before, G&W does, in fact, have options that are safeish on shield, Usmash has a significant (+4) frame advantage on shield drop, and all of sweetspot Fsmash, sweetspot Dsmash, Rapid Jab, Fair, and Bair can be difficult to punish when spaced optimally. Jab 1 is an *ok* poke in my opinion due to its disjoint, very fast FAF, and ability to lead into a non guaranteed grab. It should also be noted that, in my opinion, while G&W might not be the best at approaching opponents himself, he's also a character that's quite good at punishing opponents attempts to approach thanks to his large amount of disjointed hitboxes and invincible, low endlag, Usmash.

Sorry about the wall of text x_x.

You know your character extremely well

 

[TimG57867]

I personally want Kirby to be in Tier 4 simply because of how characters have moved around. If this list were like last one which actually had quite a few characters in Tier 6, then I'd think Tier 5 would appropriate. But because so many are rising to Tier 4 and 5 (even ones who haven't gotten an explosive influx of results or massive buffs) that I feel are on par with him, I feel Tier 5 would leave to low in relation to the cast.

I can also confirm that isn't nearly as bad many of us (including me) used to think. Especially with 1.1.3 if you stay grounded, shield eggs, and only jump high for reads and punishes he isn't very hard. Mike himself told me he thinks it's a -1 at worst and has sets to show for it.

As far as bad top and high tier match ups go the main ones are and possibly and . Not the best spread but nothing the right secondary (like ) can't cover for. In turn he's got several top/high tiers he goes even with or beats . And it's not like a lot of those other Tier 4 have spectacular top and high tier spreads themselves. And going by the last 2 voting rounds, a spot on the lower end of Tier 4 seems like the best compromise anyway.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Tim has MikeKirby made a MU chart for Kirby yet?

 

[TimG57867]

Tim has MikeKirby made a MU chart for Kirby yet?

Not to my knowledge. But if he did I bet he'd have Luigi as the worst one. Lol.

 

[SpaceCanary]

I have my last 2 votes ready...
+ Lucario has sustained some downvotes that nobody has counter-voted yet, but he's a really good character imo. He can combo well at the beginning of a match and KO well later on due to his aura mechanic, and his aura-boosted recovery move makes him hard to KO if not done with a single, strong hit. He's a bit like Ryu in some respects.
+ Pikachu is one of those counterpick types that should have a place in Tier 2 just on his adaptability and MU spread. He doesn't fight like many other people but he has great frame data and combos. He's somewhat hard to main, but his ability to do well against top-tier characters warrants an upvote imo.

 

[MasterWarlord]

+
+
+
-
-

 

[Deleted member]

+1
+1
-3

You can only do +1 or -1 votes, not -3. If you wanna downvote or upvote somebody add two more characters.

 

[DMWN]

-3

That's not how it works.

 

[Y2Kay]

Lol Zard basically had his Bair turn into a lightning kick, he doesn't need to go towards bottom tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol Zard basically had his Bair turn into a lightning kick, he doesn't need to go towards bottom tier.

tbf, he certainly has the results of a bottom tier character. Not that I believe he's anywhere near that spot, but I can see other people's understanding. Literally nobody notable plays Zard so we don't really see what he's capable of doing at high level often.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

That's not how it works.

Imagine a world where it did

 

[TimG57867]

tbf, he certainly has the results of a bottom tier character. Not that I believe he's anywhere near that spot, but I can see other people's understanding. Literally nobody notable plays Zard so we don't really see what he's capable of doing at high level often.

's situation really is astounding. Next to the Miis, he had to have been the biggest causality to come of customs falling our of favor. Pushed well, his combination of current kit and nerfing of horrid matchups like would probably be able to give him at least mid tier results. Yet for some reason practically no one touches him. Remzi and Anti's Charizards appear once in a blue moon, Trela's Charizard has been MIA since Ryu's release, and Bloodcross pretty much dropped him once customs bit the dust in most tournaments. I have seen impressive footage of a Japanese Charizard who could probably put in work at tournament but he doesn't seem to go to much if any. And not helping matters is that whenever a Charizard DOES appear on stream for a popular tournament, he ends up getting misrepped be it either matchup or skill. Case in point, BrianYDG tried to show him off at Pound 2016 but he got 5.99'd.

Granted he didn't seem very on point and interestingly the commentators pointed out the Zard should be able to deal with Bayonetta. But either way, that doesn't leave a good impression. Clearly buffs alone aren't going to improve Charizard's standing in the meta. Whether it's a counterpick or a wicked solo run, he's going to need someone to put him on western stream and DAZZLE with him. That's probably the only way people will give the Fire/Flying lizard a chance given how nonexistant his meta has been since last summer.

Imagine a world where it did

It'd be ugly. If we went by Browny's point +5 and -3 system, we'd probably have even more tiers than the official tier list.

 

[Deleted member]

's situation really is astounding. Next to the Miis, he had to have been the biggest causality to come of customs falling our of favor. Pushed well, his combination of current kit and nerfing of horrid matchups like would probably be able to give him at least mid tier results. Yet for some reason practically no one touches him. Remzi and Anti's Charizards appear once in a blue moon, Trela's Charizard has been MIA since Ryu's release, and Bloodcross pretty much dropped him once customs bit the dust in most tournaments. I have seen impressive footage of a Japanese Charizard who could probably put in work at tournament but he doesn't seem to go to much if any. And not helping matters is that whenever a Charizard DOES appear on stream for a popular tournament, he ends up getting misrepped be it either matchup or skill. Case in point, BrianYDG tried to show him off at Pound 2016 but he got 5.99'd.

Granted he didn't seem very on point and interestingly the commentators pointed out the Zard should be able to deal with Bayonetta. But either way, that doesn't leave a good impression. Clearly buffs alone aren't going to improve Charizard's standing in the meta. Whether it's a counterpick or a wicked solo run, he's going to need someone to put him on western stream and DAZZLE with him. That's probably the only way people will give the Fire/Flying lizard a chance given how nonexistant his meta has been since last summer.





It'd be ugly. If we went by Browny's point +5 and -3 system, we'd probably have even more tiers than the official tier list.

Agreed. Charizard at least has the potential to be as viable as when it comes to superheavies, but he needs a notable result first. YDG didn't seem on point in that match like you said. I barely saw him do any dthrow followups at all, it's one of Zard's most reliable damage rackers.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

's situation really is astounding. Next to the Miis, he had to have been the biggest causality to come of customs falling our of favor. Pushed well, his combination of current kit and nerfing of horrid matchups like would probably be able to give him at least mid tier results. Yet for some reason practically no one touches him. Remzi and Anti's Charizards appear once in a blue moon, Trela's Charizard has been MIA since Ryu's release, and Bloodcross pretty much dropped him once customs bit the dust in most tournaments. I have seen impressive footage of a Japanese Charizard who could probably put in work at tournament but he doesn't seem to go to much if any. And not helping matters is that whenever a Charizard DOES appear on stream for a popular tournament, he ends up getting misrepped be it either matchup or skill. Case in point, BrianYDG tried to show him off at Pound 2016 but he got 5.99'd.

Granted he didn't seem very on point and interestingly the commentators pointed out the Zard should be able to deal with Bayonetta. But either way, that doesn't leave a good impression. Clearly buffs alone aren't going to improve Charizard's standing in the meta. Whether it's a counterpick or a wicked solo run, he's going to need someone to put him on western stream and DAZZLE with him. That's probably the only way people will give the Fire/Flying lizard a chance given how nonexistant his meta has been since last summer.





It'd be ugly. If we went by Browny's point +5 and -3 system, we'd probably have even more tiers than the official tier list.

That's something we don't need more of

 

[Andymatronic]

+META KNIGHT

Now I'll show you his moves! (Prepear for bad english xD)

His neutral CAN be pretty good if played correctly. Especially forward smash and down tilt are almost completely lagless meaning you can charge a forward smash near the ledge, release it in time and punish their get up attack/roll with dash attack/shield grab.

Leading to the next point: combos! If you get the mentioned attacks, your opponent is in big trouble. Dash attack can combo into up tilt up air back air fastfall and a down tilt lock (pretty much the strongest lock in the game since it deals 15 % damage + punish) you can extend the combo if you are next to the ledge: down air into forward air works if the enemy jumps aaand they're mostly dead (attack doesn't work since f air got a disjointed hitbox). Even if they survive, offstage is no good place for you against meta knight! Rising down air is extremely save, back air kills (yeah... you'll probably die) forward air beats any attack that is fast enough and up air leads into anything. If they airdodged every attack and they seem to get back: nope... up b (grab ledge) into up air into neutal b is true. Together the combo can deal like 70%... soon dash attack into up b will kill. If it didn't, down tilt into down b is a kill confirm on about 105%. I could go on but you probably aren't interrested to read 1 hour about combos you don't need. If you main meta knight: get crative!

Meta knight is great at baiting because of forward smash and decent ground speed. And DON'T DARE TO AIRDODGE! The holy shuttle loop will murder you! One read and you can expect to get high damage, get thrown offstage or even getting killed.

As you know, Meta Knight has one of the REALLY good recoveries!
up b: it hits through the stage without pressing down> freaking save! If you hit them, getup attack will combo (yes everything would combo but getup attack is stylish xD). If the second hit connects during recovery, up b into up b (or up b up air up b) is a true kill combo. Up b can also sweetspot the ledge and goes really high.
side b: the best diagonal recovery. If you catch an opponent, it can stagespike while grabbing the ledge> no tech punish. Grabbing the ledge before the last hit connects will result into a semi spike (you guessed it: bad place against meta knight). You still think it's unsafe on shield? Pressing down will let you bounce of the ground so you can avoid the punish.
down b: just invincibility: this recovery is so god damn good.
Neutral b: should be used only if you ran out of jumps since it's very laggy. If you manage to hit the ground you can recover with jumps again.

Sadly his up air up b combo is gone. Plz massive hero sakurai give meta knight a spike so we can 0 to death fools again. Thx.

what the hell xD
anyways in my eyes meta knight is still top 10/high tier 2. players like abadango don't play meta knight like meta knight should be played! A real main has fun with him without the holy combo, he even mentioned to drop meta knight wich is a shame because he is really good.

people are getting blind because of the rage of 1.1.5. They're down voting him as hell. So hopefully this comment will lead to meta knights glory again!

(Sorrie foar bed inglish ägäin ಠ_ಠ)






+PEACH

She is sereosly underrated since she isn't good if you first pick her up... She can be a MONSTER!


-BAYONETTA

her combos can be di'd however you'll get great damage so she is still top tier.


+GAME AND WATCH

i have to agree with Molk !


+KIRBY

As my secondary...

It's just a prank bro! xD. I won't talk that much again, but he deserves a higher spot like mid tier!



Only took me 1 hour on mobile.
¥aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa¥

 

[Browny]

+1

UPDATED

I want to make this one the final round for phase one and as such, it is going to take more votes to move a character. I'm going to set it to +6 and -4.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

+1

Updating...

YOU UPVOTED CORRIN YOU ARE MY FAVORITE


+1
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I AM THE FIRST VOTER YES

 

[Yoshister]

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[Deleted member]

+1 Has been on the rise both in America (Son, a solo Lucas just double eliminated Xaltis' Rosalina at EagleLan this weekend) and in Japan (Taiheita making upsets and placing decently with Lucas), and I believe his toolkit allows him to viably compete in this metagame. He just needs a top level rep like Mewtwo does with Aba, and he'll definitely be more popular.

+1 The amount of Cloud downvotes last round were rather absurd. He's one of the most used and successful characters in Smash 4 tournament play at the moment and has a very solid matchup spread. He simply can't be this low, his neutral and punish game are too oppressive. Name one character Cloud loses to solidly besides Sheik.

-1 Kirby really should not be this high, especially when characters below him like Samus or Wii Fit have done more of note.

+1 Futile effort to throw Palutena a bone. I still don't think she's worse than Roy or Charizard at the very least, especially in terms of results.

+1 Samus has done a lot to prove she's solidly on the lower end of mid tier, this is just to push her a bit further.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Spoiler

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+1When are people going to accept he isn't bottom 5????? ugh. His killing issue, recovery, and smash connecting problems aren't THIS bad!!!!! And he has good strengths too.

-1....no

-1What? His buffs were good but they didn't make him THIS good. Defitenly isn't better than Yoshi, Pac-Man, Wario, and Mii Brawler. I won't down vote Lucina though since many people downvote Lucina but not Marth

+1He has pretty good potential with fruit, hydrant, etc tricks. Plus other good strengths too

+1 imo Palu probably shoudn't be this low, TLTC and Prince Ramen have gotten pretty good results at regionals using SOLO Palu, and even in theory she isn't quite this bad, she's still better than Roy, Link, and Little mac for sure in theory

 

[Zerp]

Spoiler: Reference

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7: Ganondorf apparently decided to move out of the cool club for a while but at least we're not alone down here.

+ 1 Oh he's totally not a top tier guys, he's got a plethora of weaknesses, a crappy neutral, terrible dash, a terribly inefficient gimmick called limit break that he never ever gets to use, is insanely punishable on shield especially after limit break Side B, and has by far the worst aerials in the game. Cloud is terribad.
- 1 Still a bit too high up on the ladder imo, personally I think he belongs with Falco and the good Doctor.
Edit: -1 Somehow didn't notice him being so high, it's like he was using camouflage or something.

I'll save my other votes for later.

 

[Yoshister]

+1When are people going to accept he isn't bottom 5????? ugh. His killing issue, recovery, and smash connecting problems aren't THIS bad!!!!!

Yes they are.

He does have good strengths though.

 

[Routa]

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I see Miis didn't move once again. I still strongly think that at least Gunner and Swordfighter should move up a tier. Too bad very few vote them up.

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[AlphaSSB]

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[L1N3R1D3R]

- Whoa, don't get ahead of yourself there.
+ Koolaid, anyone?
+ With full customs, they have all the potential.
+ He's a worse MARIO, not a WORSE mario.

 

[Wintermelon43]

- Whoa, don't get ahead of yourself there.
+ Koolaid, anyone?
+ With full customs, they have all the potential.
+ He's a worse MARIO, not a WORSE mario.

And Tea, and Ginko, and Zage, and Sinji

(Now if they all would go to more nationals that would be great)

 

[TimG57867]

Oh dang it. I forgot to put in my last two votes. Oh well.

+ 1 : Has been doing better lately than many want to admit. At Glitch he made Top 16 with MikeKirby while Deven3000 fell just shy of Top 32 with a 33rd placement. At Pound, SmashGod got Top 50 mostly using him. (He did a bit but he didn't even win the one set I saw him using her in). Meanwhile K.I.D Goggles gave a good demonstration of his anti-meta capabilities with his set against Mr. R of all people. He's been doing well regionally too. He got Top 3 at a stacked regional in Hawaii with 120 in attendance with MikeKirby who practically had a guaranteed win against Void in Loser's Finals but made a critical and avoidable goof while recovering. Meanwhile Triple R also got Top 3 at a regional of 120 in Minnesota, taking down several top PR and the best Sheik in Iowa and Swag whose the current Top PR in their scene. And in general I see him as on par with a quite a few characters in Tier 4 and in this current is definitely above Tier 5. All characters in Tier 5 atm are either objectively worse in the meta, have no representation at all, haven't demonstrated their abilities against top and high tiers very well at the top level, or are a combination of the above. Note that I don't want him actually go to Tier 3 though. This is to ensure he stays in Tier 4. (Seriously the back and forth with him is just painful is painful to watch). Would like to see on the lower end of the tier though. Might change this depending on how things go.

- 1 : Tier 5 is one thing but Tier 4? Seriously? It doesn't matter that he's got a lot of Mario's strong points. He's still one of the rarest characters in tournament with few upsets to speak of. I mean even his performance against ESAM's Pikachu is looking weak considering ESAM easily beat Nario's Doc later.

-1 : She may not be unusable garbage but I don't think she has good enough of a a niche in the overall meta to justify the massive amount of dedication it takes to play her. At least characters like Link and Kirby are relatively straightforward to play (note I said play, not win with). Hell, TLTC is considered the current best one and I've heard that he's contemplated dropping her from time to time .
-1 : This one comes from personal experience. Honestly, he should be as good as Kirby thanks to his D-Throw conversions and recovery. I actually used to play him a lot when the game first came out as he was one of my favorite characters in Brawl. But over time his flaws have really become more apparent to me and turned me off him. His aerials just have too much landing lag. You'd be amazed by how long he spends on the ground when you just want to poke with a F-Air. And all his aerials are unsafe on shield so he's almost always gonna eat a punish if hits from the front. Furthermore, while his D-Throw combos are good, he lacks many efficient options for quickly racking up percent aside from it. This can cause him to stale his few kill moves as he tries to build percent. Also, his neutral is just as bad Kirby's if not worse because Kirby at least can copy powers to alleviate this issue. G&W is stuck with Bacon Flip which is a poor excuse for a zoning tool. What really kills it for him is killing ability. Toot-Toot would be a saving grace but even at its golden windows it's WAY to finicky and if he misses it he'll have to land a smash to get the K.O as his throws don't kill and aerials don't have good knockback save for an off-ledge D-Air. Throw in his light weight and you find that rage is a nightmare for him.

- 1 : I am actually eager to see who ZeRo rates as the best Shulk because I couldn't name you a successful high level Shulk if I tried. Tier 5 is where he belongs.