Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[_Jack_]

and +1 - If , , , , and belong in Tier 4, then these two do too. I would vote all five of these characters down, instead, but that would use all of my votes. So, I'll only use up two in order to vote Dr. Mario and Shulk up to be with characters they're just as good as.

and -1 - Yeah, both of these characters are starting to get results, but I really don't think that it's enough to move them up here. They're not bad characters anymore, but they still need more to move them up here.

-1 - I said it in an earlier post and I'll say it again. This character is the new Yoshi. He is all theory and doesn't have the results to back up a Tier 1 placement. The highest that this supposedly "god tier" character placed at Genesis and Pound was 17th. has had better placements than him at these tournaments for crying out loud. Once this character starts getting the results that warrant a Tier 1 placement, then we'll talk.

 

[lbrasz44]

+
+
+
-
-

 

[Vyrnx]

+
-
-
-
+

Also I didn't realize we were going by full Mii moveset/sizes until now lol, if that's the case Mii Brawler would be much, much, much higher. But not gonna waste a vote on that because Miis with full movesets/sizes? This should probably be changed to 1111. As unfortunate as it is that we don't use full movesets/sizes for Miis.

 

[Rhinomaster22]

Is there any reason why people are down voting Mario and Sonic honestly? I understand Sonic to a extent but Mario definitely doesn't need to drop that much.

 

[TimG57867]

+
-
-
-
+

Also I didn't realize we were going by full Mii moveset/sizes until now lol, if that's the case Mii Brawler would be much, much, much higher. But not gonna waste a vote on that because Miis with full movesets/sizes? This should probably be changed to 1111. As unfortunate as it is that we don't use full movesets/sizes for Miis.

Agreed. If you're lucky, you'll get Guest XXXX but nothing more than that. With all sizes allowed, jumps like 2-3 tier levels and becomes super busted. Glitch's Custom tourney proved that's still the case. The list should reflect the meta and right now small size isn't even ALLOWED and probably won't be for the foreseeable future at most tournies.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

+Cloud
-Mewtwo
-Corrin
+Ike
+Pac-Man

 

[LRodC]

+
+
+
+
-

These are all counter votes except for Brawler and Pit/Dark Pit. Mewtwo is fine where he's at, people are playing ping-pong with Ryu when he should be in tier 2, and Mario is fine where he is.

 

[DMWN]

+1 Has been on the rise both in America (Son, a solo Lucas just double eliminated Xaltis' Rosalina at EagleLan this weekend) and in Japan (Taiheita making upsets and placing decently with Lucas), and I believe his toolkit allows him to viably compete in this metagame. He just needs a top level rep like Mewtwo does with Aba, and he'll definitely be more popular.

Feelicks, I never thought I'd see the day...
...And seeing as he's your first vote out of all five...

"'Cause I still believe in miracles, I swear I've seen a few,
and the time will surely come when you can see my point of view,
I believe in songs and magic, and that's why
I believe in you!"

Admittedly, I wasn't even going to upvote Lucas this round. I was doubtful he would survive long in tier 3, but seeing you of all people upvote him, how could I not submit? Heck, I didn't even know about Xaltis being double-eliminated by a Lucas player before you mentioned it. I knew this character was good, and I'm glad you now understand why.

Coincidentally enough, I've made an effort to understand your feelings about a certain character since the last voting round as well.

+
+
+
+
+("muh potential")

 

[Silvanus]

+
+
+
+
-

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Actually I remember browny saying whatever is allowed and someone said all sizes and move sets, but I'm pretty sure the norm where the allow Miis is Guest XXXX

 

[jespoke]

Actually I remember browny saying whatever is allowed and someone said all sizes and move sets, but I'm pretty sure the norm where the allow Miis is Guest XXXX

Yea, at the moment Guest XXXX is the only ruleset that matters because full Miis is not played, Sizes 1111 was never played, and in Guest 1111 they are irrelevant

 

[Xandercosm]

+
+
+
+
+("muh potential")

+
+
+
+
-

There are a scary amount of Roy upvotes going on right now.

Also, not to judge other peoples' opinions, but why should Lucas be in Tier 3? Certainly having a couple recent results is nice but not enough to push a character one to two tiers up. I like Lucas but I'm beginning to wonder what people mean when they say he has "hidden potential". If he had hidden potential, someone probably would have already taken advantage of it. It has been almost an entire year since his release and his Meta has stayed stagnant even despite a couple neat buffs.

I'm not at all saying Lucas is bad, just that he isn't yet ready for Tier 3. He feels a bit like a Roy but with better theory to me at the moment. Luckily, decent theory is enough to keep a character around Low-Mid Tier but definitely no higher. Anyway, that's what I think about the character as of right now.

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

+ Obligatory Wii Fit Trainer vote. Y'all know my reasoning for her being higher
+ Why is she this low even if she has results more so than any in her tier
+ Lucina's not terrible because she has lack of tipper. It is a hindrance however this opens up new doors like her being able to be played more so in an aggro manner.
- No.
+ IMO He should be higher considering his ridiculous range and power...(I hate him so much...it pains me to do this)

 

[Deleted member]

+ Obligatory Wii Fit Trainer vote. Y'all know my reasoning for her being higher
+ Why is she this low even if she has results more so than any in her tier
+ Lucina's not terrible because she has lack of tipper. It is a hindrance however this opens up new doors like her being able to be played more so in an aggro manner.
- No.
+ IMO He should be higher considering his ridiculous range and power...(I hate him so much...it pains me to do this)

Does the face of a SOLDIER strike fear in you?

I kid, I kid.

Anywho, I'm really happy at all the upvotes Palutena is getting. She's been ignored for far too long.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

+1
Saving my last vote, again, I want to see others.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Is there any reason why people are down voting Mario and Sonic honestly? I understand Sonic to a extent but Mario definitely doesn't need to drop that much.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I want Mario and Sonic in Tier 2

 

[VizionarY]

+ (Lots of potential, Lots of Range, I believe in him)
+ (Good job against that Rosa, Lucas!)
+ (For whatever reason I think Yoshi has potential to be in tier 3) ((Not even sure if i'm thinking straight))
+ (I think he's deserving of tier 5)
- (Sorry guys, Ryu is not tier 1 in my opinion. Rant at me if you want but i don't think he deserves to be tier 1)

 

[DMWN]

There are a scary amount of Roy upvotes going on right now.

Also, not to judge other peoples' opinions, but why should Lucas be in Tier 3? Certainly having a couple recent results is nice but not enough to push a character one to two tiers up. I like Lucas but I'm beginning to wonder what people mean when they say he has "hidden potential". If he had hidden potential, someone probably would have already taken advantage of it. It has been almost an entire year since his release and his Meta has stayed stagnant even despite a couple neat buffs.

I'm not at all saying Lucas is bad, just that he isn't yet ready for Tier 3. He feels a bit like a Roy but with better theory to me at the moment. Luckily, decent theory is enough to keep a character around Low-Mid Tier but definitely no higher. Anyway, that's what I think about the character as of right now.

If @Feelicks is confident enough to upvote a character who he's been meaning to downvote for a while, we know something's up.

Lucas's meta has only improved over time. Sure, not by much, but I think we've seen enough to conclude that he's a solid character. He has no terribly bad matchups, after all. I'm pretty sure he goes even with a lot of the cast, actually--especially the characters in Tier 3.

 

[Deleted member]

and +1 - If , , , , and belong in Tier 4, then these two do too. I would vote all five of these characters down, instead, but that would use all of my votes. So, I'll only use up two in order to vote Dr. Mario and Shulk up to be with characters they're just as good as.

But they all have better results and representation than both Doc and Shulk? I'm legit not understanding your logic here. It's debatable they're even as good as them, either. I know Shulk has been doing better recently, but his placements in majors are pretty inconsistent/poor.

 

[jespoke]

I know people generally agree that Yoshi should rise up to tier 3. But unless Browny moved the threshold for 2 tier jumps like the one for 1 tier, then Yoshi is on course to doing a Ryu from last round, or a Kirby from the round before, and jump up to tier 2......

- Purely a countervote, this is my 4th vote

 

[kiddo805]

+1 Finally getting upvotes!!!
-1 No.

 

[VizionarY]

I know people generally agree that Yoshi should rise up to tier 3. But unless Browny moved the threshold for 2 tier jumps like the one for 1 tier, then Yoshi is on course to doing a Ryu from last round, or a Kirby from the round before, and jump up to tier 2......

- Purely a countervote, this is my 4th vote

So do you see Yoshi's potential like i do? Are you just doing this downvote to make sure he gets into tier 3 not tier 2? If your doing it to make sure he gets to tier 3 then i commend you for that great thinking! If your doing it to downvote yoshi than could i have your reasons?

 

[jespoke]

So do you see Yoshi's potential like i do? Are you just doing this downvote to make sure he gets into tier 3 not tier 2? If your doing it to make sure he gets to tier 3 then i commend you for that great thinking! If your doing it to downvote yoshi than could i have your reasons?

The downvote is because i think he should be in tier 3, and he already has the votes to go to tier 2 (Unless the rules are different this round or people changed their votes)

 

[Xandercosm]

If @Feelicks is confident enough to upvote a character who he's been meaning to downvote for a while, we know something's up.

Lucas's meta has only improved over time. Sure, not by much, but I think we've seen enough to conclude that he's a solid character. He has no terribly bad matchups, after all. I'm pretty sure he goes even with a lot of the cast, actually--especially the characters in Tier 3.

You didn't really give any evidence for Lucas being Tier 3 worthy. You just said that if Feelicks thinks he's good, he must be good. I'm happy to be proven wrong but I'd at least like a well written explanation of what makes Lucas a solid character. Also, am I supposed to just take your word for it that he has great MUs against all other Tier 3 characters?

Not trying to spark argument, but I just want to see a good explanation of Lucas's "hidden potential" for once.

 

[Deleted member]

+1 Has been on the rise both in America (Son, a solo Lucas just double eliminated Xaltis' Rosalina at EagleLan this weekend) and in Japan (Taiheita making upsets and placing decently with Lucas), and I believe his toolkit allows him to viably compete in this metagame. He just needs a top level rep like Mewtwo does with Aba, and he'll definitely be more popular.

+1 The amount of Cloud downvotes last round were rather absurd. He's one of the most used and successful characters in Smash 4 tournament play at the moment and has a very solid matchup spread. He simply can't be this low, his neutral and punish game are too oppressive. Name one character Cloud loses to solidly besides Sheik.

-1 Kirby really should not be this high, especially when characters below him like Samus or Wii Fit have done more of note.

+1 Futile effort to throw Palutena a bone. I still don't think she's worse than Roy or Charizard at the very least, especially in terms of results.

+1 Samus has done a lot to prove she's solidly on the lower end of mid tier, this is just to push her a bit further.

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

Changing my Kirby downvote to a Link downvote and my Samus upvote to a Roy downvote.

 

[DMWN]

You didn't really give any evidence for Lucas being Tier 3 worthy. You just said that if Feelicks thinks he's good, he must be good. I'm happy to be proven wrong but I'd at least like a well written explanation of what makes Lucas a solid character. Also, am I supposed to just take your word for it that he has great MUs against all other Tier 3 characters?

Not trying to spark argument, but I just want to see a good explanation of Lucas's "hidden potential" for once.

I'm leaving class now, but I'll write a full explanation later today. I've got it all in mind.

 

[Deleted member]

You didn't really give any evidence for Lucas being Tier 3 worthy. You just said that if Feelicks thinks he's good, he must be good. I'm happy to be proven wrong but I'd at least like a well written explanation of what makes Lucas a solid character. Also, am I supposed to just take your word for it that he has great MUs against all other Tier 3 characters?

Not trying to spark argument, but I just want to see a good explanation of Lucas's "hidden potential" for once.

Lucas has great zoning and damage racking ability thanks to PK Fire and zair, three kill throws, a tether that's reasonably fast that makes up for its shorter range compared to other ones, very good air mobility and decent edgeguarding due to PK Thunder, bair, and fair, which all don't have much risk thanks to how long-distanced his recovery is. Yes, his aerials can be wonky (uair hitbox increase, pls Sakurai) but they still do their job. His fsmash doubles as a good kill move and reflector, and PSI Magnet of course helps him well in some matchups since it heals damage for him and its hitbox can be quite useful for offstage gimps or kills. Dtilt, utilt and dthrow are all effective combo starters.

Along with Lucas' recent rise in results and Mekos (the best Brawl Lucas player in the world) recently becoming a part of Smash 4's scene, he is utmost definitely going to break out this year. People realized Mewtwo was good after so long, now it's Lucas' time.

 

[Xandercosm]

Along with Lucas' recent rise in results and Mekos (the best Brawl Lucas player in the world) recently becoming a part of Smash 4's scene, he is utmost definitely going to break out this year. People realized Mewtwo was good after so long, now it's Lucas' time.

Interesting. Like most characters, he has some neat strengths. Most of what you listed were just moves in a vacuum, though. The thing is, I just don't see him having a Mewtwo moment. Mewtwo did so well at Pound 2016 because he had some pretty major buffs. Lucas's just can't compare; I really want Lucas to be a solid character that is on the rise but I just can't say that yet. He doesn't have the results, rep, or theory at this point in time.

I am definitely excited to see if someone does something with him in the future. Who knows? Maybe he'll get some really great results at some point and rise a lot in the tier list. I just don't think we should upvote him until there is significant reason to.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Right now, if my maths is correct, is at +7. With this round being +6 to move up and -4 to move down, this means she'll most likely be moving up a tier.

However, any more upvotes after this would be kinda excessive if you ask me. Her moving up 1 tier is fine IMO, but two tiers isn't exactly right.

 

[Deleted member]

Right now, if my maths is correct, is at +7. With this round being +6 to move up and -4 to move down, this means she'll most likely be moving up a tier.

However, any more upvotes after this would be kinda excessive if you ask me. Her moving up 1 tier is fine IMO, but two tiers isn't exactly right.

She definitely deserves to move a tier up. tbh she should be at bottom of tier 4 but that's just my bias taking

Interesting. Like most characters, he has some neat strengths. Most of what you listed were just moves in a vacuum, though. The thing is, I just don't see him having a Mewtwo moment. Mewtwo did so well at Pound 2016 because he had some pretty major buffs. Lucas's just can't compare; I really want Lucas to be a solid character that is on the rise but I just can't say that yet. He doesn't have the results, rep, or theory at this point in time.

I am definitely excited to see if someone does something with him in the future. Who knows? Maybe he'll get some really great results at some point and rise a lot in the tier list. I just don't think we should upvote him until there is significant reason to.

No significant reason?

You're saying a Lucas from nowhere double eliminating one of the most notable Rosalina players in tournament (and making top 8 there), and a Lucas in Japan being able to beat some of Japan's best despite recently getting into the tournament scene isn't notable achievements?

 

[jespoke]

Right now, if my maths is correct, is at +7.

Hmm, my count is saying +5, let me re-check that.

Edit: The count on votes is +6 -1 and one post that could easily be miscounted as a + vote but is actually Feelicks changing some other votes.

 

[Xandercosm]

She definitely deserves to move a tier up. tbh she should be at bottom of tier 4 but that's just my bias taking



No significant reason?

You're saying a Lucas from nowhere double eliminating one of the most notable Rosalina players in tournament (and making top 8 there), and a Lucas in Japan being able to beat some of Japan's best despite recently getting into the tournament scene isn't notable achievements?

You're thinking about it in a bubble. Citing some random results doesn't really make a character more viable. I agree that double eliminating a Rosalina player is nice but it's just one result. The same can even be said for Mewtwo but to a lesser extent. Yes, he won a major but that is just one result. Characters have to become more significant before we can start saying they should move up a large amount.

I feel like you focus a little too much on results that you pull from a bunch of different tourneys. I'm not discrediting what you are saying but I wish that you would try to think about characters from a big picture perspective instead of judging them based on a bunch of obscure/random results you found.

There is so much more to a character than that.

 

[Deleted member]

You're thinking about it in a bubble. Citing some random results doesn't really make a character more viable. I agree that double eliminating a Rosalina player is nice but it's just one result. The same can even be said for Mewtwo but to a lesser extent. Yes, he won a major but that is just one result. Characters have to become more significant before we can start saying they should move up a large amount.

I feel like you focus a little too much on results that you pull from a bunch of different tourneys. I'm not discrediting what you are saying but I wish that you would try to think about characters from a big picture perspective instead of judging them based on a bunch of obscure/random results you found.

There is so much more to a character than that.

Lucas players have defeated other Rosalinas in tournament before. Don't give me bull**** about me pulling "random" or "obscure" results lol

Even then, Lucas' theory is decent too.

 

[Xandercosm]

Lucas players have defeated other Rosalinas in tournament before. Don't give me bull**** about me pulling "random" or "obscure" results lol

Even then, Lucas' theory is decent too.

But see, you're doing it again. Does it matter if he's beaten one Rosa or two? What matters is wether the character is fundamentally solid or not. You sound like you're starting to get very defensive and angry, though, and I really don't like where this is going. I'd like to keep this thread civil, please.

My closing statement for now is that I don't think Lucas has yet proven himself, however maybe someone will come out and show us his hidden abilities. At the moment I'm just betting against that.

 

[DMWN]

Lucas has great zoning and damage racking ability thanks to PK Fire and zair, three kill throws, a tether that's reasonably fast that makes up for its shorter range compared to other ones, very good air mobility and decent edgeguarding due to PK Thunder, bair, and fair, which all don't have much risk thanks to how long-distanced his recovery is. Yes, his aerials can be wonky (uair hitbox increase, pls Sakurai) but they still do their job. His fsmash doubles as a good kill move and reflector, and PSI Magnet of course helps him well in some matchups since it heals damage for him and its hitbox can be quite useful for offstage gimps or kills. Dtilt, utilt and dthrow are all effective combo starters.

Along with Lucas' recent rise in results and Mekos (the best Brawl Lucas player in the world) recently becoming a part of Smash 4's scene, he is utmost definitely going to break out this year. People realized Mewtwo was good after so long, now it's Lucas' time.

Geez your opinion sure did change!

But see, you're doing it again. Does it matter if he's beaten one Rosa or two? What matters is wether the character is fundamentally solid or not. You sound like you're starting to get very defensive and angry, though, and I really don't like where this is going. I'd like to keep this thread civil, please.

My closing statement for now is that I don't think Lucas has yet proven himself, however maybe someone will come out and show us his hidden abilities. At the moment I'm just betting against that.

Lucas essay is on the next page. Go there.

 

[apparently fuz]

Honestly, I'm somewhat tired of the results card being pulled out all too often. MU spreads are as, if not more important than the former.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I'm somewhat tired of the results card being pulled out all to often. MU spreads are as, if not more important than the former.

You are right. I do focus on results too often.

The thing is, what characters does Lucas lose terribly to? People on the Lucas boards have thought Rosa was one of their worst MUs in the past, now thanks to recent upsets it seems like that might not be the case. I know Xanos has said he thinks and aren't very good matchups for Lucas.

 

[apparently fuz]

You are right. I do focus on results too often.

The thing is, what characters does Lucas lose terribly to? People on the Lucas boards have thought Rosa was one of their worst MUs in the past, now thanks to recent upsets it seems like that might not be the case. I know Xanos has said he thinks and aren't very good matchups for Lucas.

Don't see this as a jab towards you, but as a message towards everyone that there's more that meets characters than just their performance in tournaments. Case in point, Pikachu.

Either way, I wouldn't say that I'm a Lucas specialist at all, but from my perspective, Lucas seems to attain the spacing/zoning archetype that is directly countered with the likes of rush down, bait and punish or passive aggro play (Diddy, Sheik). I can't really vouch for Rosalina at all however, but don't take my word.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Don't see this as a jab towards you, but as a message towards everyone that there's more that meets characters than just their performance in tournaments. Case in point, Pikachu.

Either way, I wouldn't say that I'm a Lucas specialist at all, but from my perspective, Lucas seems to attain the spacing/zoning archetype that is directly countered with the likes of rush down, bait and punish or passive aggro play (Diddy, Sheik). I can't really vouch for Rosalina at all however, but don't take my word.

I haven't seen this supposed Lucas v Rosalina set. Is there a link to it? Let a Rosalina player analyse it.

 

[Deleted member]

I haven't seen this supposed Lucas v Rosalina set. Is there a link to it? Let a Rosalina player analyse it.

Enjoy! This was just last weekend here in Florida~