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Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

Wintermelon43

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tbh I have no idea what to think of Lucas. It's like one day people say he's great and top 30 (Or close to it) and then the next day people aay he sucks and that he's 45th or so.

imo Lucas will become top 30 but right now I'm not fully sure if he is right now theorticitally and results don't back up him being top 30

Xandercosm Xandercosm go shove a stick up your *** with that tone already.

Not seeing how Lucas' flaws are serious besides people being lazy and refusing to play characters that require you not to just press buttons tbh.
Was that stick pun intended?
 
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Airpoizon

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I didn't know we were on Reddit. :U
I didn't know we were on Reddit. :U
Uh, I'm pretty sure this is Smashboards...

Also, people only think Roy is low tier because of results, yet even though he hasn't won any huge major tournaments, he does place pretty high. And in locals he does extraordinary.

The other reason is because they treat him like a 3rd Marth. Which he is not, he has a completely different play style that shouldn't have to be compared to Marths. In short, people compare Roys weak points to Marths strong ones.
 

Bowserboy3

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Everyone will see Lucas is a good character this year like everyone did with Mewtwo back then.

I'm just sayin'.
Not seeing how Lucas' flaws are serious besides people being lazy and refusing to play characters that require you not to just press buttons tbh.
You see, this is a totally different situation though. Mewtwo has received noticeable changes that improved his problems. Mewtwo's only real weakness/problem now is his poor weight and tall stature, which is something that keeps him in check. He has speed and mobility, range, autocancels, a useful projectile (it's quick, safe can be used to harass or KO), raw power and safety.

Lucas has more weaknesses than just one. It's these that keep him back.

And his flaws aren't serious. As I mentioned in my explanation, they aren't serious in the vein of Falco or Roy, but having issues like this just stop Lucas from being so high.
 
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Wintermelon43

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Uh, I'm pretty sure this is Smashboards...

Also, people only think Roy is low tier because of results, yet even though he hasn't won any huge major tournaments, he does place pretty high. And in locals he does extraordinary.

The other reason is because they treat him like a 3rd Marth. Which he is not, he has a completely different play style that shouldn't have to be compared to Marths. In short, people compare Roys weak points to Marths strong ones.
What are you even talking about? There's way more reasons that Roy is low tier, for example: Crappy recovery.

As for placing high in locals, this is true for almost every non-mii character, if not all of them.
 

Y2Kay

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Mewtwo does have weaknesses besides thoese two tho

I just ranted about this to a guy who thought Mewtwo was broken (I am serious)

found it Bowserboy3 Bowserboy3
Why do you just gloss over Mewtwo's weaknesses like that, and proceed to call him broken? Mewtwo has awful ground traction, light weight, mediocre OOS game, small grab range, a serious blindspot behind him that makes him vulnerable to crossups, light weight, big frame, mediocre frame data, awful air acceleration and gravity, light weight . . .

His strengths that help make up for this are definitely justified.

From a spectator view, Mewtwo may look a little cheesy, but playing Mewtwo can be extremely stressful.

Literally every button press is a commitment. When you decide to go for a move, you have to accept that if you're read or get punished for it, you'll feel the sting of your bad choice A LOT.

The threat that a few wrong moves can have you pushing up daisies in a heart beat is all too real.


First of all, Nair has awful range, literally any move with good range will win a trade with it. Next, Nair FS Disable is not a good kill setup. Nair hit boxes are so weird, you can't reliably make the target land in front of you for a footstool. And to compound onto this, the input for FS disable is really tough too.
:150:
 
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Bowserboy3

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Uh, I'm pretty sure this is Smashboards...

Also, people only think Roy is low tier because of results, yet even though he hasn't won any huge major tournaments, he does place pretty high. And in locals he does extraordinary.

The other reason is because they treat him like a 3rd Marth. Which he is not, he has a completely different play style that shouldn't have to be compared to Marths. In short, people compare Roys weak points to Marths strong ones.
I respect the fact you want to upvote Roy, but the reason he is so low is not just because of results, but it's a combination of his playstyle and lacking safe options.

I'll put it like this in short; Roy's sweetspot position forces him to play up close, and his moves are laggy. This sets him up for punishment. Tie into this that Roy has no safe way to approach or KO the opponent due to the aforementioned point and lack of KO setups, and you have a character that is extremely finicky and tough to play consistently.
 

Kaiduru Zeta

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I have no idea why Cloud is getting downvoted so much. I'm probably wrong about this but I feel he's actually top 2.. I'm probably biased due to how much I struggle with him...
 
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D

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I have no idea why Cloud is getting downvoted so much. I'm probably wrong about this but I feel he's actually top 2. I'm probably biased due to how much I struggle with him...
As I've said many times before, people hate doing their homework in this thread. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There's no reason to believe he isn't top 5 at this point. I dare to hear a valid argument saying otherwise.
 

ShadowGuy1

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I think people should really read moderator messages because like nothing from before they had posted here has changed. I think Lucas has potential and he could higher up, that is why I voted him, but I might have to change that because of these cloud and sonic downvotes(Sonic is not tier 1, just worried he will fall tier 3)
 
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Airpoizon

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What are you even talking about? There's way more reasons that Roy is low tier, for example: Crappy recovery.

As for placing high in locals, this is true for almost every non-mii character, if not all of them.
Crappy recovery? Unlike Marths you can actually control the direction it goes. And have you seen characters that are supposively higher than Roy, with bad recoveries? For example, DK, Ike, heck, even Ryu and Clouds recoveries aren't that good. Ryu and Cloud have almost no horizontal movement after they recover.

While Roys recovery is also a great look move, has super armor, and the multiple hits make it pretty safe.
 

Kaiduru Zeta

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:4cloud:

Does the face of a SOLDIER strike fear in you?

I kid, I kid.

Anywho, I'm really happy at all the upvotes Palutena is getting. She's been ignored for far too long.
Yep he scares me lololol.

Crappy recovery? Unlike Marths you can actually control the direction it goes. And have you seen characters that are supposively higher than Roy, with bad recoveries? For example, DK, Ike, heck, even Ryu and Clouds recoveries aren't that good. Ryu and Cloud have almost no horizontal movement after they recover.

While Roys recovery is also a great look move, has super armor, and the multiple hits make it pretty safe.
But these other characters actually have a lot going for them and plus DK's recovery is vastly better than Roy's. DK has Ding Dong and multiple stuff going for him. Roy doesn't have much going for him other than his Mobility and a few other things
 

Airpoizon

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I respect the fact you want to upvote Roy, but the reason he is so low is not just because of results, but it's a combination of his playstyle and lacking safe options.

I'll put it like this in short; Roy's sweetspot position forces him to play up close, and his moves are laggy. This sets him up for punishment. Tie into this that Roy has no safe way to approach or KO the opponent due to the aforementioned point and lack of KO setups, and you have a character that is extremely finicky and tough to play consistently.
I personally have no trouble playing Roy, and having no safe way to KO an opponent is not true, Up-B out of shield is a great kill setup because of its super armor and fast start up. Roys F-Tilt is also really fast and can kill, same with Fair. That's just his safest ones.

Yep he scares me lololol.


But these other characters actually have a lot going for them and plus DK's recovery is vastly better than Roy's. DK has Ding Dong and multiple stuff going for him. Roy doesn't have much going for him other than his Mobility and a few other things
Roys Up-Air setups and lead to kill confirms, like U-Air to B-Air, and even U-Air to D-Air works. Roys neutral B is also a great move for killing because of the almost little to none ending lag on it, you can easily escape out of it or to another attack right after it.
 
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jespoke

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Roy recovers better diagonally than many characters, but because he drops like a rock his sideways recovery is worse than listed characters, even some that recover straight up (IE Marth and Cloud; Ike and Ryu have side-B)

Roy can kill really early off reads, but suffers from his grounded punishes being limited to close range and the aerial ones being hard to pull off.

The biggest problem i have with him is how the strong rushdown things he can do are too risky to me, while playing him any other way he just becomes a bad sword character.
 
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Bowserboy3

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I personally have no trouble playing Roy, and having no safe way to KO an opponent is not true, Up-B out of shield is a great kill setup because of its super armor and fast start up. Roys F-Tilt is also really fast and can kill, same with Fair. That's just his safest ones.
Ok ok, but have you played Roy before in a tournament situation where players won't be able to abuse FD and input lag? Just a curious question. Roy online is far better online where it's harder to react, giving the impression he can KO reliably. Also, no stage other than FD in my opinion helps Roy, as platforms just make it far easier to combo Roy due to his high fall speed.

Regarding Roy's recovery, it can be angled slightly, but that's just the move. Recovery consists of multiple things, such as distance and fall speeds. Roy's fall speed is very high, and this hinders his recovery. The moment Roy gets hit off stage, his high fall speed can haunt him. His recovery move is also relatively slow. When comparing it to Marth for example, Marth has a slower fall speed, a far quicker recovery move, making it safer off stage, and it also reaches slightly higher too. More often times, Marth can recover on occasions Roy cannot. Of note, Roy's Up B has more landing lag than Marth's too, making it far more unsafe if missed, and in general, less safe as an OoS move. It is rather strong though, so that's nice.

And another thing. While things like Ftilt and such are strong and relatively fast for killing, you must always remember that they only do so when sweetspotted, and you must consider the sweetspot placement, which is close to Roy. This means, that while Roy has disjointed range, he must fight up close like a brawler to be able to KO or score consistent damage. This completely mitigates the point of him using a sword, which can be used to strike from a distance and or use to defend, which Roy cannot due to the sweetspot placement.

And it's the sweetspot placement that harms his other moves and kill setups. Falling Up Air works pretty nicely, but it is very shaky and unsafe, as for it to work, you must hit a grounded opponent, so you'd need to use the side hitboxes and hit the sweetspot. If missed, or sourspotted, this sets Roy up for an opening for punishment.

I don't think I have seen anyone ever mention his neutral special as a serious kill move. Yes, it has little endlag, but it's relatively weak unless charged. It's far better as a baiting move to see what your opponent likes to do, as the endlag is rather quick.

That's the thing with Roy, he relies too much on baits and mistakes from the opponent. He has no real combos, as DI prevents almost all true combos at low percents. He has no real safe way to approach the opponent due to lack of autocancels. He struggles to KO safely due to lack of poor approach, KO confirms, and laggy, high commitment smashes. He cannot space or play defensively very well, or at all, due to his sweetspot placement. He has a poor off stage precence, despite his sweetspotted aerials power, due to a combination of high fall speed and a sub par recovery move, meaning he can't go deep for long, or in some cases, at all. He is also combo fodder for most characters due to his high fall speed and mid weight. Roy also lacks noteworthy results overall. Combine all this together, and you have most certainly, a character that is not above low tier.

Don't get me wrong, I myself do think Roy is slightly lower than he could be, but it's not something we can solidly prove, because he lacks representation and results. I wouldn't put Roy any higher than low tier however. Roy isn't a bad character so to speak. Remember, bad in this game is no where near the same level as bad in other games.
 
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Airpoizon

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Ok ok, but have you played Roy before in a tournament situation where players won't be able to abuse FD and input lag? Just a curious question. Roy online is far better online where it's harder to react, giving the impression he can KO reliably. Also, no stage other than FD in my opinion helps Roy, as platforms just make it far easier to combo Roy due to his high fall speed.

Regarding Roy's recovery, it can be angled slightly, but that's just the move. Recovery consists of multiple things, such as distance and fall speeds. Roy's fall speed is very high, and this hinders his recovery. The moment Roy gets hit off stage, his high fall speed can haunt him. His recovery move is also relatively slow. When comparing it to Marth for example, Marth has a slower fall speed, a far quicker recovery move, making it safer off stage, and it also reaches slightly higher too. More often times, Marth can recover on occasions Roy cannot. Of note, Roy's Up B has more landing lag than Marth's too, making it far more unsafe if missed, and in general, less safe as an OoS move. It is rather strong though, so that's nice.

And another thing. While things like Ftilt and such are strong and relatively fast for killing, you must always remember that they only do so when sweetspotted, and you must consider the sweetspot placement, which is close to Roy. This means, that while Roy has disjointed range, he must fight up close like a brawler to be able to KO or score consistent damage. This completely mitigates the point of him using a sword, which can be used to strike from a distance and or use to defend, which Roy cannot due to the sweetspot placement.

And it's the sweetspot placement that harms his other moves and kill setups. Falling Up Air works pretty nicely, but it is very shaky and unsafe, as for it to work, you must hit a grounded opponent, so you'd need to use the side hitboxes and hit the sweetspot. If missed, or sourspotted, this sets Roy up for an opening for punishment.

I don't think I have seen anyone ever mention his neutral special as a serious kill move. Yes, it has little endlag, but it's relatively weak unless charged. It's far better as a baiting move to see what your opponent likes to do, as the endlag is rather quick.

That's the thing with Roy, he relies too much on baits and mistakes from the opponent. He has no real combos, as DI prevents almost all true combos at low percents. He has no real safe way to approach the opponent due to lack of autocancels. He struggles to KO safely due to lack of poor approach, KO confirms, and laggy, high commitment smashes. He cannot space or play defensively very well, or at all, due to his sweetspot placement. He has a poor off stage precence, despite his sweetspotted aerials power, due to a combination of high fall speed and a sub par recovery move, meaning he can't go deep for long, or in some cases, at all. He is also combo fodder for most characters due to his high fall speed and mid weight. Roy also lacks noteworthy results overall. Combine all this together, and you have most certainly, a character that is not above low tier.

Don't get me wrong, I myself do think Roy is slightly lower than he could be, but it's not something we can solidly prove, because he lacks representation and results. I wouldn't put Roy any higher than low tier however. Roy isn't a bad character so to speak. Remember, bad in this game is no where near the same level as bad in other games.
I agree with the fact that Roy needs to risk getting close, but so do characters like Mewtwo and Shulk. Shulk's attacks actually do less damage at the tip of his blade, and Mewtwos attacks that use his tail are stronger at the base. And they are ranked pretty high at the moment. And when talking about fall speed, look at Fox, Falco, Greninja, and Bayonetta. Who all have the same of faster fall speeds then Roy and are ranked higher.

I of course know Roy is not the best in the game, but bottom 5 or worst Swordfighter is pushing it.
 
D

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I dunno. Every other swordie in this game has done more than Roy and has objectively better toolkits. Even Shulk for as badly regarded as he is has some niche MUs against more relevant characters.
 

TMNTSSB4

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@Feelicks Xandercosm Xandercosm DMWN DMWN

Late obviously but y'all really gonna do this to eachother? Can't we all just be friends and not argue over characters leading to having to say offensive terms like "stick up da ass"?
 
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Xandercosm

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Late obviously but y'all really gonna do this to eachother? Can't we all just be friends and not argue over characters leading to having to say offensive terms like "stick up da ***"?
^

I dunno. Every other swordie in this game has done more than Roy and has objectively better toolkits. Even Shulk for as badly regarded as he is has some niche MUs against more relevant characters.
I'm assuming you like that Dabuz has Roy as the lowest character on his MU based tier list, right? I thought that was kinda cool. Also, I just wanna say, Roy has pretty much hit rock bottom at this point. I almost feel bad for him but nah.
 

Rhinomaster22

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I'm just gonna assume people who are down voting :4mario::4sonic: are too lazy to check how many votes have gone in already for them to go down back to tier 2 like they wanted. At this point point they might as we'll be tier 3 which makes no sense. Also I know Cloud is good. Definetelty one of the best characters in the game but to those who are voting for him. You guys realize you up voted him like 30 times without checking right? (Probabyl 2nd best by now) :4cloud: I mean it's your vote I have no control over that but could you guys actually check how many up votes and down votes a character gets and make a educated vote?
 
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D

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I'm assuming you like that Dabuz has Roy as the lowest character on his MU based tier list, right? I thought that was kinda cool. Also, I just wanna say, Roy has pretty much hit rock bottom at this point. I almost feel bad for him but nah.
I actually thought it was... quite accurate. Does Roy have a solid advantage over anyone that matters in the meta?
 

jespoke

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I think comparing Roy to Shulk and Mewtwo is like night and day. Those are some of the most spacing-based characters in the game. Sure they may have stronger hitboxes up close, but only to hit their opponents to the outer hitboxes where they actually want them.

The disjoint spacers may have close up tools, but they all cover weaknesses by spacing:
Marth spaces for reward
Mewtwo spaces to avoid getting hit at all cost
Shulk spaces to cover his bad framedata
Corrin spaces to avoid having their speed and grabgame exposed

Roy is a completely different character from them because he doesn't space, his tip hitboxes do too little for it.
 

jespoke

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I'm just gonna assume people who are down voting :4mario::4sonic: are too lazy to check how many votes have gone in already for them to go down back to tier 2 like they wanted. At this point point they might as we'll be tier 3 which makes no sense. Also I know Cloud is good. Definetelty one of the best characters in the game but to those who are voting for him. You guys realize you up voted him like 30 times without checking right? (Probabyl 2nd best by now) :4cloud: I mean it's your vote I have no control over that but could you guys actually check how many up votes and down votes a character gets and make a educated vote?
My count only puts :4cloud: at +4 right now, not even enough to break into tier 1 yet. Also :4mario: and :4sonic: are nowhere near tier 3 yet because people have been countervoting a bit already.

What is close to a big jump is :4yoshi: heading for tier 2, with :4lucas: a few votes behind him.
 
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Bowserboy3

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I agree with the fact that Roy needs to risk getting close, but so do characters like Mewtwo and Shulk. Shulk's attacks actually do less damage at the tip of his blade, and Mewtwos attacks that use his tail are stronger at the base. And they are ranked pretty high at the moment. And when talking about fall speed, look at Fox, Falco, Greninja, and Bayonetta. Who all have the same of faster fall speeds then Roy and are ranked higher.
For Mewtwo, he is far less laggy than Roy, and both Shulk and Mewtwo have more range than Roy. And while all these characters do less damage at the end of their hitboxes, only Roy is unsafe. Roy's (and Marth's) sourspots are specifically designed to be less safe on shield. So when you see people mention "Roy's moves are unsafe", then generally mean this. Roy's (and Marth's) sourspots have a hitlag modifier of x0.7 on the sourspots, meaning the opponent sustains less hitstun, making them less safe than normal attacks, that usually have a hitlag modifier of x1.0. For reference, Roy's sweetspots (and Marth's tippers) have a modifier of x1.25, making them a lot safer on shield than normal attacks.

With this knowledge, Mewtwo and Shulk have the regular hitlag modifiers, of x1.0, meaning that their moves are overall safer than Roy's sourspots on shield, considering their range. Mewtwo's in particular are generally very quick moves too, which helps.

And regarding fall speed, I'm not saying if you have a high fall speed, you are bad, no. But when you have so many other flaws, a high fall speed only makes things worse.
 
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DMWN

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And there we go. Like I say, I'm no Lucas expert, but I can see his strengths and weaknesses clearly. His weaknesses seem enough to hold him back, but are luckily, not as detrimental or to the same extent as say Falco and Roy's weaknesses. I cannot for one minute see how a character with problems or issues such as these, be a tier 2 character as you implied before. Potentially a tier 3 character, maybe, but not tier 2.
I swear, "Tier 2" was a typo. I would never think Lucas is that high.
 

Bowserboy3

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Does Roy need a falling speed decrease?
Roy's falling speed kinda fits with his archetype. He has fast run and air speeds, so a slower falling speed would be out of place.

Besides, there aren't any other proper fast faller swordsmen in the game, so it's a unique thing to Roy. At least that adds a bit of variety to the whole "oh, another swordsman" thing.
 
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Rhinomaster22

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My count only puts :4cloud: at +4 right now, not even enough to break into tier 1 yet. Also :4mario: and :4sonic: are nowhere near tier 3 yet because people have been countervoting a bit already.

What is close to a big jump is :4yoshi: heading for tier 2, with :4lucas: a few votes behind him.
Either way, my point is that characters lately have been getting huge jumps and leaps in the tiers. Mostly because a lot of people up vote characters like 10 times like Lucas without giving thought besides I like this character (Just an example).
 

Bowserboy3

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Either way, my point is that characters lately have been getting huge jumps and leaps in the tiers. Mostly because a lot of people up vote characters like 10 times like Lucas without giving thought besides I like this character (Just an example).
Well, to be fair, a lot of people just vote instinctively without checking what others have voted first. While there is no rule to checking what others have voted, it can help smooth things out easier. For example, lets say you want to bump Yoshi up 1 tier, but he has already sustained enough votes to move up 1 tier, why vote for him?
 

Y2Kay

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Mewtwo doesn't really need to risk getting close, and frankly never should. His start up is mediocre on his ground moves besides his down tilt.

Down tilt, shadow ball, and Phased Fairs basically allows how to catch many approaches. He's more of zoner than anything. Mewtwo's CQC definitely isn't his strong suit and shouldn't be played that way.

However, I'd like to note that Mewtwo's speed allows him to mount an offense against opponents if he needs or wants to, which is why Mewtwo is so much better now than before.

:150:
 
D

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Mewtwo doesn't really need to risk getting close, and frankly never should. His start up is mediocre on his ground moves besides his down tilt.

Down tilt, shadow ball, and Phased Fairs basically allows how to catch many approaches. He's more of zoner than anything. Mewtwo's CQC definitely isn't his strong suit and shouldn't be played that way.

However, I'd like to note that Mewtwo's speed allows him to mount an offense against opponents if he needs or wants to, which is why Mewtwo is so much better now than before.

:150:
Agreed. Mewtwo doesn't really like to approach, but once he finds an opening he gets a ton off of it. Phasing is a seriously amazing tool and every Mewtwo player needs to master it.
 

Frihetsanka

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:4miibrawl:+1 (Any size XXXX deserves to be higher)
:4miisword:+1
:4miigun:+1
:4kirby:+1 (Counter-vote, I think he's low tier 4)
:4ryu: -1 (See edit)

Edit: It seems unlikely that Mario will drop at this point in time, and I've seen some people change their downvotes for Ryu in order to avoid him dropping two tiers. At this point, however, there is some risk that he might end up not dropping at all, so I'll spend a vote to reduce the risk of that happening.
 
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TimG57867

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Ugh....not to put anyone voting on Mii's on the spot but I think I missed the reason that was given for allowing Miis of all sizes. There wasn't any big rule overhaul in the Smash Scene to my knowledge which means Guest XXXX is still probably the most you're going to see and after the havoc they wreaked at Glitch I don't think that'll change anytime soon (I mean :4miibrawl: probably would have won had they been playing in the current patch). Am I missing something here? Seeing Mii Brawler in Tier 2 or something will be kinda useless to anyone who views this list if you can't use his small size in most standard tourneys. Is this just for the sake of comparing the viability Miis to the cast IF they were allowed all their moves? Isn't that kind of arbitrary? Wouldn't we be better off making a Customs Tier List?

I don't want to start a crazy debate/fight (This thread has got enough of those...). I just want an explanation is all.
 

Frihetsanka

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I'm inclined to agree with you. Any XXXX are, to my knowledge, rarely allowed in tournaments, so it's a bit strange that that's the set we're voting for. Guest XXXX might be a suitable compromise? Still, as of right now we're voting for Any XXXX, and I for one think they deserve to be at least one tier higher than they are now.

So, there are three options as far as Miis go: Any XXXX, Guest XXXX, and Guest 1111. Any 1111 is theoretically possible as well, but as far as I know no tournament use that. I think Guest XXXX would, given the current tournament situation, be the best choice. I'm not sure whether it'd be a good idea to discuss this right now, or if we should just leave the discussion for some other time and just vote according to the current rules? Perhaps people have discussed it already and the arguments for Any XXXX proved the strongest; I'm certainly not going to go through over 250 pages just to find out.
 

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
I'm inclined to agree with you. Any XXXX are, to my knowledge, rarely allowed in tournaments, so it's a bit strange that that's the set we're voting for. Guest XXXX might be a suitable compromise? Still, as of right now we're voting for Any XXXX, and I for one think they deserve to be at least one tier higher than they are now.

So, there are three options as far as Miis go: Any XXXX, Guest XXXX, and Guest 1111. Any 1111 is theoretically possible as well, but as far as I know no tournament use that. I think Guest XXXX would, given the current tournament situation, be the best choice. I'm not sure whether it'd be a good idea to discuss this right now, or if we should just leave the discussion for some other time and just vote according to the current rules? Perhaps people have discussed it already and the arguments for Any XXXX proved the strongest; I'm certainly not going to go through over 250 pages just to find out.
Someone falsely said that the norm was any size xxxx
 

Routa

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
1,208
Location
Loimaa, Finland
I'm pretty sure we talked mainly about Guest XXXX. I remember mentioning the Any size XXXX when I talked about getting Mii voters due to Mii users usually are the most familiar with their own sets. It is possible that Browny has misunderstood it, but who knows. Anyways Guest XXXX Miis are still extremely strong and should not be underestimated.
 
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