Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Frihetsanka]

With this in mind, I think the best characters of Tier 3 should move into a (bigger) Tier 2.

Ryu is currently going to drop from tier 1 to tier 3 (if jespoke's list is correct, Ryu's at -9 with your vote included). If you want Ryu to drop to tier 3, then you should keep your downvote. If you want him to just drop to tier 2, it might be a good idea to not downvote him (and maybe even upvote him to keep him away from -8).

Edit: Okay, so I've decided to count the current votes myself since I figured many people may have edited their votes, and it seems that is indeed the case. As of right now, it looks like the following characters are likely to move up a tier:

Mii Brawler (barely)
Cloud (good margin)
Dr. Mario (barely)
Fox (barely)
Lucas (good margin)
Roy (barely)
Yoshi (barely)
Shulk (barely)

It looks like the following are likely to move down a tier:

Lucina (barely)
Mr. Game & Watch (barely)
Ryu (good margin)

Some characters that are fairly close to moving up, but aren't quite there yet:
Mii Gunner
Mii Swordfighter
Palutena

Kirby seems to be at -3 (assuming I counted correctly and no one has edited their post since then), so he's almost moving down a tier. There are a few characters sitting at -2 as well and could thus easily move down with a few more downvotes.

 

[Browny]

On the "top tier being too big" argument - do note that all the tiers in this game are gonna be larger considering the massive roster size. Melee has 26 characters with a 4-character top tier, so for S4 to have an 8-character top tier when the roster more than double Melee's size is fine.

With this in mind, I think the best characters of Tier 3 should move into a (bigger) Tier 2. It was stupid for Greninja to be 11th and above high/top tiers like Ness and Mewtwo, but with Tiers 1 and 2 consisting of ~16-18 characters, I think he can fit in at the bottom. I would move for Corrin, Greninja, maybe Toon Link and maybe Falcon to get bumped up eventually. Now's probably not the best time to move for this though.



I'll oblige.

+

I'll save my other three votes for now.

EDIT: As advised, I removed my vote for Ryu as he's moving down anyway. I'm saving my other four votes.

I'm updating this soon, don't save those votes for too much longer.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

reminds me of .

Hugely better regarded in Japan than he is in America and is much higher on JP tier lists/gets better results at majors there. This also happened to . Though tbh, Duck Hunt in America has almost comparable ones but nobody cares due to the character's unpopularity.

That's why tier placements should be worldwide instead of just one place. If it was this way, characters like Duck Hunt would have better placements

 

[Bowserboy3]

That's why tier placements should be worldwide instead of just one place. If it was this way, characters like Duck Hunt would have better placements

Correct. I fail to see why people say "well X only places well in Y region so his results don't mean as much".

 

[Phuckyew]

Using my remaining three votes

+
+
+

 

[Phuckyew]

How do I delete a message? I didn't mean to post this. (This message not my Mii votes)

 

[Zerp]

How do I delete a message? I didn't mean to post this. (This message not my Mii votes)

Unless if something's changed, I don't think you can do it yourself, you'd have to ask a mod to delete it for you.

 

[SpaceCanary]

Ryu is currently going to drop from tier 1 to tier 3 (if jespoke's list is correct, Ryu's at -9 with your vote included). If you want Ryu to drop to tier 3, then you should keep your downvote. If you want him to just drop to tier 2, it might be a good idea to not downvote him (and maybe even upvote him to keep him away from -8).

I thought we went through this before. . .
But I guess this means that I'll be deleting my downvote and replacing it with:
+1
We've been bouncing Ryu around for far too long. I think that most of us can agree that he's better than Tier 3.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Last I counted, he was at -6, so I think he might be at -5 now (or maybe even -4). This assumes no more edits. People should probably not overdo changing their votes either, else he might end up staying in tier 1.

To people reading this: Mii Swordfighter and Mii Gunner are really close to moving up to tier 4. Are Any Size XXXX worthy of tier 4? Remember that we're not rating Guest 1111, or even Guest XXXX, we're rating Any Size XXXX. Might they not at least be low tier 4?

 

[Routa]

Miis are generally heavily underrated here. People tend to forget that Guest XXXX is pretty much Mario, Guest XXXX Gunner is like more projectile based Villager and Guest XXXX Swordfighter is pretty much Pit.

Any size XXXX Brawler is Mario on crack, Gunner is Cancer mix the Sanic and Villager edition and Swordfighter is AD/HD Pit.

If you ask Mii every Mii character should jump up a tier in Guest XXXX form and like 2 tiers in Any size XXXX

I lowe to be more specific, but I'm on my phone atm.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Browny I thought the norm for miis was Guest XXXX. I remember people mentioning that, but maybe Routa knows, also I will prob change my lucy vote idk tho

 

[Frihetsanka]

From the OP: "Mii fighters are allowed full movesets and sizes"

Guest XXXX may be more common in tournaments, but Any XXXX is what we're voting for, and Any XXXX should probably be higher than tier 5.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

BTW I change my andto+ I edited in my post

 

[TimG57867]

While the OP says we are, I really don't think we should be voting on any size. Unless it becomes widely accepted it's useless when ranking the Miis alongside the rest of the cast. Isn't the point of a tier list to rank how strong characters are in the meta? Well why rank something that isn't even IN the meta? I mean why not give all her customs while we're at it? They're about as legal as non-Guest Miis come with the game too.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I've changed my Mario upvote for a Ryu downvote. It seems unlikely that Mario will drop at this point in time, and I've seen some people change their downvotes for Ryu in order to avoid him dropping two tiers. At this point, however, there is some risk that he might end up not dropping at all, so I'll spend a vote to reduce the risk of that happening.

Edit: Regarding Miis: I agree that it would probably be a good idea to rate Miis based on Guest XXXX rather than Any Size XXXX, but right now that's what we should do.

 

[DMWN]

Hope this is updated by the time I leave for Midwest Mayhem II tomorrow. Abadango, iStudying and VoiD are all going, so I've got a lot on my mind. Seeing the shocking results of who moved up and down will help put my mind more at ease.

 

[Browny]

UPDATED

Phase 2 begins now, I hope it's not too confusing. Just vote to put the bottom 10 characters in whatever order you want, in how many tiers you want.

 

[Stick Dude]

5:
6:
7:

 

[phire_]

5:
6:
7:

+

 

[Dream Cancel]

5:
6:
7:

+1 Duck Hunt

 

[jespoke]

*
*
*
*

Browny If we are going to vote in as many tiers as we want, i suggest removing all the tier numbers in the Phase 2 description in OP. It creates bias.

 

[Zerp]

5
6
I can explain my reasoning if anyone wants to hear it.

 

[Dusk Pit]

5.
6.

+

 

[Wintermelon43]

Spoiler

1:
2:
3:()
4:
5:
6:
7:

5:
6:

Edit:+1

 

[bc1910]

May I just say that I think the 9 characters in top tier are perfect? Well done to all. Completely agree with the characters in that tier.

5:
6:
7:

No + vote.

Notes:

• I am torn between Palutena and Jigglypuff for worst character. I've thrown Jiggs at the bottom since I think that's where she'll end up but you could consider those two unordered for me.
• I don't think any of these characters deserve to move up to Tier 4. DHD, Zard and Mac are a bit ahead of the pack. In theory I can see Charizard getting bumped up, but I can't back that up with results.
• Duck Hunt is only above Charizard because of his recent strong showings. I think Charizard's kill power and recent buffs make him a better character but again, I can't really back up what I think with hard data.
• I think Little Mac is an absolute terror in the right hands and Sol proves this. Pray this character never becomes popular.
• Bowser Jr was the hardest character for me to place. I think he could be lower but has the best tools (and results thanks to Tweek) of the remaining characters.
• Falco isn't that bad. D3 and Shulk aren't that good.

 

[Browny]

*
*
*
*

+

Browny If we are going to vote in as many tiers as we want, i suggest removing all the tier numbers in the Phase 2 description in OP. It creates bias.

The bias has a point though, since phase 1 does need to have extra weight put on it. I want people to be influenced by the first round of voting. Of course they can vote any way they want, but what happened in phase 1 should affect peoples decision and they can ignore it if they want.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

5:
6:
7:

 

[Dusk Pit]

The bias has a point though, since phase 1 does need to have extra weight put on it. I want people to be influenced by the first round of voting. Of course they can vote any way they want, but what happened in phase 1 should affect peoples decision and they can ignore it if they want.

Why aren't we voting 1 tier at a time? Now some of phase 1 votes will go to waste if we can just move these 12 characters between (low)tiers how we want. What was the point of phase 1 if this is how we determine characters' final place on the list?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why aren't we voting 1 tier at a time? Now some of phase 1 votes will go to waste if we can just move these 12 characters between (low)tiers how we want. What was the point of phase 1 if this is how we determine characters' final place on the list?

I suspect we'll vote on tier 4 and tier 3 individually, perhaps tier 2 and tier 1 as well. I support his move in having us vote for all low-tiers at the same time, since so few characters fall under low tier.

 

[Browny]

Why aren't we voting 1 tier at a time? Now some of phase 1 votes will go to waste if we can just move these 12 characters between (low)tiers how we want. What was the point of phase 1 if this is how we determine characters' final place on the list?

The point of the first phase is to get a general shape of the tier list including how many tiers there are and roughly the size of each one. Also, it goes for a long time to allow people to make decisions based off many tournaments over a long period of time.

The second phase is to force people to focus on a small group of the characters at once and spend your votes on them. With a lot of votes concentrated on a small bunch of characters, I can quite easily rank the characters in tiers. I did 3 tiers at once because 10 characters is an easy number to work with. Too little and its just a waste of voting weeks to vote for a few characters. Too much and it takes too long.

If I didn't have a phase 1, it would be extremely difficult and take forever trying to update a tier list when people vote on every character at once and more importantly, people would consistently vote on characters which they really have no idea whatsoever about. Why force people to vote on Mii Fighters if you know they don't know where to put them. People might not be able to tell me where Roy rates among the entire cast. But perhaps they can more accurately tell me how he compares to Falco and Little Mac?

If people vote on everyone at once they aren't going to put any effort into ranking the characters they don't use much.

 

[Xandercosm]

5:
6:
7:

+1 This guy definitely has some potential. Not enough to rise out of low-tier but enough to at least get out of the the bottom 3 tiers. Can't ignore that neutral.

 

[Tizio Random]

5.
6.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: Reference

5:
6:
7:

5:
6:

+1

I don't want to come off as pompous, but Palutena is not bottom 5, even less bottom 2 material. Her back air is still a powerful spacing tool that wouldnt be out of place on a high tier character, and her grab game (not to mention all variations of her grab have great range) and defense are solid. Her specials aren't terrible at all except Counter, and you can't ignore how much she gets off a jab cancel. Besides that, having an invincible dash attack that can kill when fresh doesn't hurt as a burst movement option. I'd even say she has a better neutral than most low tiers she's lumped around with. The tournament results also agree with me, too.

I'm curious to hear why you think so, bc1910 . I wouldn't mind a healthy debate.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'll be honest, I feel that just 7 tiers is FAR too small. Like, some of these characters, are better than some, but not good enough to be in tier 4...

I'll just say this: Melee and Brawl had 9 and 11 tiers respectively. Why on earth have we still got 7 tiers for a game with far more characters than either of those games? It just doesn't make sense. I feel 10 tiers overall would make ranking characters a lot easier.

As an example (this is loosely my opinion, but just an example of how I feel having more tiers could benefit):

Spoiler: More tiers example

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10:

With more tiers, it's far easier to keep characters organised. For me, with the amount of tiers we have, its always a case of "I don't think this character is as bad as these, but I don't feel he's quite as good as those above him". It's very hard to vote and very restricting. As well, it just makes more sense. You don't very often hear in polls "Rank X from 1 to 7". It's usually at least 1 to 10.

With that said, my votes
---
5:
6:

+1: Bowser Jr has too much going for him to be this low. This vote may be a little bit bias driven, but an excellent Bowser Jr player won our last tournament, defeating me, and all of our top players. Everything I saw from said player was fantastic. He has approaches, he has a good neutral, he has hit confirms, great tools for stage control. Sure, I don't think he's much higher, but I don't think he's this low.

I honestly don't think Zelda and Puff are so far and away bad they deserve their own tier, and I'll be honest, I might be inclined to say Puff ISN'T directly at the bottom.

 

[DMWN]

5:
6:
7:

+Our (Monado) Boy

Good job cleaning up the OP Browny

Sometimes, I get the feeling that Sakurai secretly has this game perfectly balanced and we just don't know it yet. That can't be true, though. However Bowserboy3 , this is possibly the most balanced Smash game yet, so it's plausible to have as many tiers as we have now. Though, given the trend, I'd rather have 10 tiers.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

5:
6:
7:


+1


See, pretty much all these characters have bad theory, so I did use results/notable players to put people in places, but people who I believe have higher theory, like , should be higher. Also, when Link is tier 4 and not in tier 5 or 6. I already know my downvote

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

5:
6:
7:

+

The rest of these characters are fine in the bottom 12. They have tons of potential but in the end are outclassed by those above them.

EDIT: Switched and .

 

[Bowserboy3]

However Bowserboy3 , this is possibly the most balanced Smash game yet, so it's plausible to have as many tiers as we have now. Though, given the trend, I'd rather have 10 tiers.

The game is balanced in the way that most characters stand a chance in most matchups, and aren't heavily hindered by specific flaws.

The cast however, still has noticable leeway in who is better than others. 7 tiers is still too little IMO.

 

[Frihetsanka]

5:
6:
7:

You forgot to place Roy.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You forgot to place Roy.

Roy's so bad he shoudn't be placed