Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[SpaceCanary]

>cloud
>iffy range

I am so done with this goddamn thread

I take that back. I was mainly thinking about Cloud's range versus Marth, Corrin, and Shulk, who have good range on almost all of their moves, but compared to the rest of the cast it is actually quite good. My bad.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

It's beautiful seeing no arguing around these parts

 

[DMWN]

It's beautiful seeing no arguing around these parts

Yeah? Say that to my face, twit.

(It was nice while it lasted, eh?)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yeah? Say that to my face, twit.

(It was nice while it lasted, eh?)

Y U gotta do this?

 

[kiddo805]

+1 I swear, I just can't with the Cloud matchup. Everytime I go against a Cloud, I always think "Ugghhhh, not this guy again." But yeah, he's top tier IMO.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

- - I don't think he has the representation or the results. His frame data is nothing special, and he's just got a few fundamental issues keeping him from being this high. Can't say I see him as an equal to Kirby, Lucas or Wario.

+ - I know it's contradictory to my above statement, but despite the fact that he doesn't have much representation or results, I think Yoshi is being slept on hard. His frame data is exceptional, edge guarding him is extremely difficult, his projectile and confirms are wild. If the right player comes around, I think people could see him as a tier 2 character in the future. I could be totally wrong about that, but I certainly think he deserves tier 3.

- - I feel like we need a tier in between 3 and 4 because that's where Mega Man belongs. He's better than the characters below him, but not quite on the same level as the characters above him IMO. Yeah I watched Scatt beat Ryo. No I don't think it means much.

- - I think he's around the same level as Fox, not quite with the rest of the cast. Definitely a solid character but he has some weaknesses. Like his kill options are pretty limited, at higher levels of play spin-dash is scarier for the Sonic player than it is for the opponent because it has so many weaknesses. His recovery is super linear, and he hasn't been doing as hot in tournaments lately (compared to a few months ago).

-

 

[Bowserboy3]

+1 I swear, I just can't with the Cloud matchup. Everytime I go against a Cloud, I always think "Ugghhhh, not this guy again." But yeah, he's top tier IMO.

It'll come with time. I think it depends who you use. I mean, I still think he's within the top 5/6 realm at this point in time, but he isn't so threatening when you know how to fight him. If you do use Palutena for example, you'll be struggling because Cloud outranges her and most of Palutena's attacks are laggy.

I honestly don't fear Cloud as much any more. Sure, I don't very often use Rosalina against him, but even then there are still things Cloud must be fearsome of Rosalina for (mainly, he is super easy to Up Air combo, especially under Limit, and there's also not much he can do about their spaced rapid jab at the ledge).

For Cloud, I usually always go Marth. Besides Marth being one of my most used characters (alongside Rosalina), I strongly feel Marth at least goes even with Cloud. This is debatable, but I might even say he could have a very slight advantage. I honestly don't struggle with Cloud that much with Marth, mainly because their range is somewhat even, which is nice, and most times, Marth's attacks are less laggy than Cloud's. Marth is great off stage, and Cloud is not. Still not a matchup with a clear winner, but it's at least even, if not very slightly in the favour of Marth if you ask me.

Also, Marth's Up Smash outranges the infamous Cloud Dair. Yay!

 

[Dusk Pit]

^ Actually, Palutena doesn't care much about range because of her back air and dash attack. Most of her ground moves are laggy but aerials not so much.

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

+1 I swear, I just can't with the Cloud matchup. Everytime I go against a Cloud, I always think "Ugghhhh, not this guy again." But yeah, he's top tier IMO.

I so feel your pain. Out of WFT,Rosaluma and Kirby I don't know who really goes against him well. ?He's sooo hard to face against... Many WFTs agree it's even but I think it's like 60:40 in his favor because Cloud is just so irritating to face off against since Cloud cam just beat WFT hard. But yeah, really REALLY tough MU

 

[Deleted member]

It'll come with time. I think it depends who you use. I mean, I still think he's within the top 5/6 realm at this point in time, but he isn't so threatening when you know how to fight him. If you do use Palutena for example, you'll be struggling because Cloud outranges her and most of Palutena's attacks are laggy.

I honestly don't fear Cloud as much any more. Sure, I don't very often use Rosalina against him, but even then there are still things Cloud must be fearsome of Rosalina for (mainly, he is super easy to Up Air combo, especially under Limit, and there's also not much he can do about their spaced rapid jab at the ledge).

For Cloud, I usually always go Marth. Besides Marth being one of my most used characters (alongside Rosalina), I strongly feel Marth at least goes even with Cloud. This is debatable, but I might even say he could have a very slight advantage. I honestly don't struggle with Cloud that much with Marth, mainly because their range is somewhat even, which is nice, and most times, Marth's attacks are less laggy than Cloud's. Marth is great off stage, and Cloud is not. Still not a matchup with a clear winner, but it's at least even, if not very slightly in the favour of Marth if you ask me.

Except Prince Ramen almost took a set off M2K at a regional and has beaten him before afterwards in friendlies, and M2K knows the Palutena matchup. Results and theory support the MU being near even.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

-
-
-
-
-

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Megaman getting downvotes? Understandable

 

[Bowserboy3]

Except Prince Ramen almost took a set off M2K at a regional and has beaten him before afterwards in friendlies, and M2K knows the Palutena matchup. Results and theory support the MU being near even.

I merely mentioned matchup struggles. I never for one minute said Palutena loses the matchup. Characters can still have laggy moves and manage in matchups perfectly fine. It's just something Palutena has to be aware of.

 

[Rhinomaster22]

I merely mentioned matchup struggles. I never for one minute said Palutena loses the matchup. Characters can still have laggy moves and manage in matchups perfectly fine. It's just something Palutena has to be aware of.

Didn't M2K participate in project m and Melee at the same time at Tampa? I remember him trying to balance out Melee matches, pm, and smash 4 matches without much break time. Maybe he was exhausted.

 

[Xandercosm]

Except Prince Ramen almost took a set off M2K at a regional and has beaten him before afterwards in friendlies, and M2K knows the Palutena matchup. Results and theory support the MU being near even.

Let's hear an explanation of how Palutena could possibly even come close to having a 50:50 MU with Cloud. Explain, please.

Didn't M2K participate in project m and Melee at the same time at Tampa? I remember him trying to balance out Melee matches, pm, and smash 4 matches without much break time. Maybe he was exhausted.

That makes sense to me. When you have to play three separate Smash games in one day, it can definitely leave you feeling exhausted. To the point where you lose to low tier characters that have less range and weaker frame data than yours for silly reasons, even. It's amazing that he can even balance all those games at all, honestly.

 

[Y2Kay]

Top tiers having problems with low tiers has always been a thing in this game. For example:

Vs
Vs
Vs
Vs (pre patch)

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I don't really consider Kirby lowtier.....but yea remember when I asked about A MU chart made by MikeKirby? Well....he made it not long after.
Like half the cast is even with Kirby, a couple overall solid wins(Falcon and someone else), Several slight wins, a few unsure MUs so he didn't rate them, a handful of slight disadvantage, a few solid disadvantage and 1 counter(Luigi)

So basically, it ain't the best, but not close to the worst, it's very workable Id say. Though his Luigi experience may be what's making him see Luigi as the worst, when it seems like others think Sonic is our worst MU.

TimG57867 , I'll assume you have some decent experience, what do you think of his MU chart?

 

[TimG57867]

I don't really consider Kirby lowtier.....but yea remember when I asked about A MU chart made by MikeKirby? Well....he made it not long after.
Like half the cast is even with Kirby, a couple overall solid wins(Falcon and someone else), Several slight wins, a few unsure MUs so he didn't rate them, a handful of slight disadvantage, a few solid disadvantage and 1 counter(Luigi)

So basically, it ain't the best, but not close to the worst, it's very workable Id say. Though his Luigi experience may be what's making him see Luigi as the worst, when it seems like others think Sonic is our worst MU.

TimG57867 , I'll assume you have some decent experience, what do you think of his MU chart?

Funny you ask that because once this painful week of college is over I actually intend to upload my own matchup chart with detailed support for each character on Kirby forums. It'll be "1.3" picking up after the other guy and hopefully I can avoid the blunders most non-top level Kirbies make assembling his match ups. Keep an eye out for it. I can say now though that it does have a couple -2s but nothing worse than that which I think is par for the course for our list's Tier 4 and 5 characters.

 

[SpaceCanary]

I myself am repealing my Cloud downvote. I tend to dwell on his negative points so as to play against him, but he is a great character. I have devoted a lot of time to practicing Cloud recently and it turns out that a lot of my Link moves translate well into Cloud (such as dair meteor smashes). Plus, I'm liking his down tilt a lot. So, I'm replacing the downvote with:

-1 Game and Watch is not that great imo because, although he is extremely light, he is much less suited for air combat than fellow lightweights such as Mewtwo, Puff and Kirby. Plus, he suffers from ending lag and has situational special moves, so he is more punishable and tends to die a little early for my tastes.

Also, can I make a suggestion about the voting? I've been noticing that characters are bubbling up through the tiers due to the fact that there are more upvotes than downvotes in general. We're starting to get a "top heavy" tier list where the upper tiers are packed with characters and the lower tiers are tiny. So can we do another round of tier voting, but insert a blank tier above tier 1 for the best characters to move up into?

 

[jespoke]

+ My 5th vote, a countervote to prevent Sonic from falling below Mario.

As amusing as it is for there to be 4 characters exactly on the tier move threshold with none at 1 point too much or little, i still don't want Sonic to be there.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

YOU UPVOTED CORRIN YOU ARE MY FAVORITE


-1
+1
+1
+1
-1

I AM THE FIRST VOTER YES

I just changed my votes from - to +for a counter votes, +to +for a counter vote cause I see people DOWN VOTING when he is in tier 3, and I changed my +to a +just in case he drops Tier 3 because I think he is going to drop there without a countervote. Also, I changed my andbecause people already upvoted them a lot so I feel no need to do upvote them

 

[jespoke]

I should stop being vague about it and post my vote count for the people that want to countervote before even more people base their votes on wrong assumptions of how the vote is going.

This round the 1 tier move threshold is +6/-4 and the double threshold was not stated but in other rounds it was 10.
I think i got that right.

Edit: Note that i update it manually, so any edits to previous pages that are not mentioned in a new post i will have missed.

Edit2: Image removed until i update it.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I should stop being vague about it and post my vote count for the people that want to countervote before even more people base their votes on wrong assumptions of how the vote is going.

This round the 1 tier move threshold is +6/-4 and the double threshold is was not stated but in other rounds it was 10.
I think i got that right.

I feel like a lot of those numbers are off, but if this is the case changing my vote again lol

 

[Rhinomaster22]

Damn, look at Yoshi votes. ​

 

[jespoke]

Oh wow, it is off by more than i thought. I might take it down for a bit. i think some + votes have been edited to + ones, so i should probably do the full re-count.

Lucina's votes line up, Ryu is 1 off.


Edit: Wow, i don't know how Browny pulls this off. It is SO easy to mistake Feelicks' correction post as a separate entry.

Posting my list here, i should at least make sure it is up to date. Impatient me ended up punished by perfectionist me by remaking the list from scratch.

And it will be out of date again soon because at least 1 person is going to change their votes after seeing this.

 

[Thecombosetups]

+
+
+
+
+

 

[Dark_Link05]

+
+
+
-
+

 

[[][] Revios]

Mario: +1
Shulk: +1
Marth: +1
Fox: +1
Sheik: +1

 

[Bowserboy3]

That makes sense to me. When you have to play three separate Smash games in one day, it can definitely leave you feeling exhausted.

This is so true. This is part of the reason why at my last tournament I decided to focus solely on Smash Wii U. There was Melee there too, but switching between two games (that while similar, play vastly different) can affect your ability to perform 100%. Ever since I made the decision to focus on one game at a tournament, my results have been slightly better, and lot more reliable/consistent (still waiting on that top 3 placement though, lol I'm a scrub. 4th is nothing to scoff at though, very pleased).

As an example, the tournament I went to before my latest one, I was eliminated by the best Captain Falcon in our area, Lumos. At the time, I struggled in the first game, and was cleanly two stocked in the second game, being 2-0'd by him. We were both playing just Smash 4 at the time.

Fast forward to the latest tournament, and we meet again in bracket. However, this time, Lumos decided to play Melee and Smash 4. Besides the fact that I feel I had gotten much better from before, I managed to double two stock him, and I am totally convinced because he was trying to balance two games, his skill dropped. He's usually a very scary player.

Kudos to those who can effectively juggle two games at a tournament though. I can usually just get out of brackets, but fizzle out rather quickly when doing so.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

+
+
+
-
+

Woah a DH upvote

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm not suprised. Brood has gotten top 8 at a Japanese national again.

 

[Deleted member]

reminds me of .

Hugely better regarded in Japan than he is in America and is much higher on JP tier lists/gets better results at majors there. This also happened to . Though tbh, Duck Hunt in America has almost comparable ones but nobody cares due to the character's unpopularity.

 

[Phuckyew]

-
Tall, light, and poor frame data.
These were the attributes chosen to create another low tier fighter.
But Lord Sakurai added an extra ingredient to the concoction -- Custom Moves!
Thus, a versatile character was born!
Using her ultra-super powers, Paultena has dedicated her life to fighting scrubs
And the forces of For Glory!

Wait, customs aren't tournament legal? They can't be used on For Glory either? I believe Palutena can become a decent character via patch magic () but as I see it, she's not deserving of tier 6. Time to get the divorce papers ready...


I'm saving my remaining three votes for now.

 

[KamikazePotato]

+
+
+
+
+

 

[Frihetsanka]

+His placement below a theory character such as Ryu makes no sense to me.

Assuming jespoke's list is correct, Cloud is currently at +11 with your vote included. At this rate, he's going to create a theoretical tier 0, where he'll the the sole character; assuming that can even happen (I hope not, 8 tiers is a bit much).

Ryu, meanwhile, might fall down to tier 3. So Cloud could end up three tiers higher than Ryu (assuming a new tier would be created for Cloud).

 

[Phuckyew]

Cloud is currently at +11 with your vote included.

Thank you for pointing this out. I edited my post to remove my vote.

 

[Browny]

I plan on updating this tonight (like, 10 hours from now here) so any last minute votes... half a day left.

Regarding Cloud, no he will not go into a tier above. Special rules are in place for the top and bottom tiers where only characters currently in those tiers can move up or down to create new ones.

 

[jespoke]

Of all the characters where i know where i want them (Sorry low tiers, you are confusing to rank), Cloud and Lucina are the only ones that feel out of place. But Lucina will get plenty - votes without me joining in.
+

Some people will want Sonic, Ryu and Mario out of top tier, but i would much rather have them stay there and boost the top of tier 3 into 2 instead. Therefore I'll go with:
Edit: This plan went nowhere, so I've changed the votes to ones that will have more impact
+
-

The rest i will keep around for now in case people try to make too much space between Mario-Sonic-Fox, or demote Sheik or something.

I have changed my + vote to a - one since the reason i didn't do that at the beginning was fear people would overvote that.

My + vote i have swapped to a + vote so that one more + vote at the eleventh hour will put him on his rightful place right beside Sonic and Mario on the list.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I have changed my + vote to a - one since the reason i didn't do that at the beginning was fear people would overvote that.

My + vote i have swapped to a + vote so that one more + vote at the eleventh hour will put him on his rightful place right beside Sonic and Mario on the list.

Thing is everyone down voted those two

 

[bc1910]

On the "top tier being too big" argument - do note that all the tiers in this game are gonna be larger considering the massive roster size. Melee has 26 characters with a 4-character top tier, so for S4 to have an 8-character top tier when the roster more than double Melee's size is fine.

With this in mind, I think the best characters of Tier 3 should move into a (bigger) Tier 2. It was stupid for Greninja to be 11th and above high/top tiers like Ness and Mewtwo, but with Tiers 1 and 2 consisting of ~18 characters, I think he can fit in at the bottom. I would move for Corrin, Greninja, maybe Toon Link and maybe Falcon to get bumped up eventually. Now's probably not the best time to move for this though.

My + vote i have swapped to a + vote so that one more + vote at the eleventh hour will put him on his rightful place right beside Sonic and Mario on the list.

I'll oblige.

+

I'll save my other three votes for now.

EDIT: As advised, I removed my vote for Ryu as he's moving down anyway. I'm saving my other four votes.

EDIT: Browny Good point. Alright then:

+
-
+
-

Sonic is right at home in Tier 1, he's just at the tail end of it. With Peach, despite her nice movement options and technical float stuff, I really don't see her as being as strong as the rest of Tier 3. Charizard is also pretty good now IMO, he deserves to end up around where Samus does. Palutena's bottom 5 if not bottom 2 and I don't know what her purpose is in a customless meta.