Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[jespoke]

@Browny why is there even an option for character to drop/rise by 2 in one round if voting is done in rounds anyway? There are tons of people voting for Ryu to rise 1 tier, and for Greninja and Cloud to drop 1 tier, but i doubt any of them actually want for them to move too far.

Like, even if 100 people voted +1 i doubt more than a few of them would vote +2 if that were alowed

 

[Bowserboy3]

@Browny why is there even an option for character to drop/rise by 2 in one round if voting is done in rounds anyway? There are tons of people voting for Ryu to rise 1 tier, and for Greninja and Cloud to drop 1 tier, but i doubt any of them actually want for them to move too far.

Like, even if 100 people voted +1 i doubt more than a few of them would vote +2 if that were alowed

I think what this means (somebody correct me if I am wrong), is that, during a round, even if Ryu got +100 votes, he'd only go up 2 tiers. In a similar vein, if a character got -50 votes, they'd still only drop 2 tiers. This measure is in place to just prevent huge rises and drops. If a character really did get -50 points, they'd be far and away in their own tier lol.

Remember it takes +5 to move a character up one tier, and -3 to move down one.

 

[jespoke]

I think what this means (somebody correct me if I am wrong), is that even if Ryu got +100 votes, he'd only go up 2 tiers. In a similar vein, if a character got -50 votes, they'd still only drop 2 tiers. This measure is in place to just prevent huge rises and drops. If a character really did get -50 points, they'd be far and away in their own tier lol.

Remember it takes +5 to move a character up one tier, and -3 to move down one.

Yea, but why allow for 2 tier swings in the first place in a system where we cant vote on how far they should move, only whether they should move or not

 

[Bowserboy3]

Yea, but why allow for 2 tier swings in the first place in a system where we cant vote on how far they should move, only whether they should move or not

I'm not quite understanding you.

If you are wondering something like "Mega Man is 30th, I think he should be 35th", we aren't voting on specific placements just yet. We are voting to find the tiers the characters should be in. When less movement starts happening, we will switch to phase two, where each round will focus on a specific tier.

For example, if you see Mario at the top of tier 2 and think "hang on, I think he's at the bottom of tier 2, I should - vote him", that isn't how it works yet. If this was the case, you think Mario is in tier two, so that is good, as he is in the right tier you think he should be, regardless of placement. Placements mean nothing as of now. When we move to phase two, we will start voting for specific placements.

For example, when that phase starts, we might start the first round with tier 7. Then, instead of casting votes like before, our votes would be our own personal ordering of the tier. Let's pretend the tier consists of these characters for the sake of argument:

"Tier 7"

The votes would be something like this "My vote is ".

Is this what you are looking for?

 

[jespoke]

No, i was talking about tiers.

I gathered from reading the thread that if a character, say Greninja, gets too many -1 votes it will drop from tier 2 to tier 4 in one go. That is why people start countervoting.

What i was confused about is why it isn't the case that no matter how many votes a character gets, it will only ever move 1 tier pr round, so we don't end up repeatedly overshooting as people are afraid will happen.


If i have understood the rules wrong then so have a bunch of other people in this thread.

 

[Bowserboy3]

What i was confused about is why it isn't the case that no matter how many votes a character gets, it will only ever move 1 tier pr round, so we don't end up repeatedly overshooting as people are afraid will happen.

I sometimes wonder about this. I suppose it's a way to try and speed up voting in a sense. If a character was in the bottom tier that should be in a higher tier, it would take many rounds for them to move.

However, in turn, we can sometimes be going back and forth in voting up and down. I see your point.

You'll have to ask Browny for clarification.

 

[Synchronize]

Lucina +
Falco +
Corrin +
Villager -

 

[TMNTSSB4]

+(I don't think I've used my last vote yet, so I'll just waste it on Peach since there's noone else I want to vote for...so don't question this logic m8)

 

[DMWN]

This character disappoints me more and more every time I play him. Dinky-*** hitboxes, non-sensical startup/cooldown (especially on smashes), and very gimpable recovery make this character only viable if you use B-stick and/or play defensive as all hell. Overrated imo, once people know how to deal with his stuff, they'll find out he's bad. Can't get in on anybody, especially considering how close he has to get and how long his moves take to come out once you commit. Basically, you have to have godlike movement fundamentals to get anywhere with Lucas imo.

If you're getting gimped as Lucas, perhaps you're not the most credible player to talk about his viability. I don't care about the downvote, but I find the reasons you gave a bit ludicrous. Sure, you have to play defensively as Lucas, but the real kicker here is that Lucas has all the tools to play defensively as well as offensively (if you know what you're doing). His only "dinky" hitbox is really hit up air, and perhaps his down air hitboxes could fall under that category. His up smash should never be used, his down smash is a situational ledgeguard (which works wonders if used properly), but his fsmash is actually really quick. His airgame is somewhat bad, but that's about the only place where he's forced to "commit" to whichever options he chooses. Zair is a great option for approaches (and recovery, if you're talking about getting gimped), and it can lead into almost anything Lucas wants. His close-up game is great, since he has jab, ftilt, and a combo starter in dtilt. I find it interesting how you classify Lucas as "overrated", considering very few make him out to be very good at all, yet he is by no means a "bad" character. It's not like the only reason he's getting results in Japan is simply because "nobody knows the matchup". That only gets you so far.

 

[jespoke]

+(I don't think I've used my last vote yet, so I'll just waste it on Peach since there's noone else I want to vote for...so don't question this logic m8)

Maybe you should post your full list of votes again?

Tracking votes i noted you had 5 votes already split between 3 posts: - + + + +
Maybe the Duck Hunt was supposed to be a comment on someone else, but it looked like a vote to me

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

Could someone post on the thread about the updated version? I'm not sure where to look for the updated ver.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Could someone post on the thread about the updated version? I'm not sure where to look for the updated ver.

Updated version of what?

 

[Browny]

No, i was talking about tiers.

I gathered from reading the thread that if a character, say Greninja, gets too many -1 votes it will drop from tier 2 to tier 4 in one go. That is why people start countervoting.

What i was confused about is why it isn't the case that no matter how many votes a character gets, it will only ever move 1 tier pr round, so we don't end up repeatedly overshooting as people are afraid will happen.


If i have understood the rules wrong then so have a bunch of other people in this thread.

Lets say a character is rated really low in tier 3 and people think they should be at the top of tier 3.

After a round of voting, they would likely shoot up to tier 2, but at the bottom of it. Since they are very close to where people want them at the top of tier 3, they wouldnt get too many downvotes the next round to send them down 2 tiers. so provided they got between -3 and -9 votes, they would go to the top of tier 3. In the next round of voting they can still move a few spaces down in tier 3, but only among a few characters.

In 3 voting periods, characters should stabilise. The only times these big back-and-forth movements happen is when someone performs really well with a certain character. Since there are so many characters in this game, there is a lot of back-and-forth movements but very rarely will the same character bounce up and down between tiers. Its usually a different group every single week.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Maybe you should post your full list of votes again?

Tracking votes i noted you had 5 votes already split between 3 posts: - + + + +
Maybe the Duck Hunt was supposed to be a comment on someone else, but it looked like a vote to me

The Duck Hunt one was a comment, not a vote...though I like that you checked still

 

[jespoke]

so provided they got between -3 and -9 votes, they would go to the top of tier 3. In the next round of voting they can still move a few spaces down in tier 3, but only among a few characters.

How does that even happen, the OP only explains tier jumps.
And speaking of that:

The rules are you can vote for 5 characters, + or - votes any way you want. +1 OR -1 VOTES ONLY. Characters that finish each round with +5 or - 3 or more votes in any direction will move a tier. Characters that finish a round with + or - 10 votes will move 2 spaces. Characters are loosely ranked within tiers. Characters can not jump 2 ranks if that would create a gap in the tiers.

Do those 3 refer to the same thing?

 

[Browny]

Spaces there is meant to mean tier, and yeah they mean the same thing. I'll fix that.

Moving in tiers is complex and changes depending on whats going on. Basically, characters that move within a tier cant move anywhere above a character that recently moved down into it, or below any character that got moved up into it. Only characters with -2, +3 or +4 votes move within a tier.

 

[Xandercosm]

Why does everyone still think Lucina is near Marth? As time has gone on, I feel like the two characters have just gotten farther and farther apart. Marth's range buffs have made it even easier for him to space, which I feel is incredibly important to his character archetype. Lucina can't do that nearly as well; she gets much less reward for good spacing. The way I see it currently, she's the poor man's Marth that anyone can play even if they aren't good enough to space properly.

In my opinion, that puts her at much larger disadvantage than people in this thread seem to think. My problem with her is that she isn't scary. Yes, she has decent power on all parts of the blade, but she can't kill as reliably as Marth because her aerials don't kill at reasonable percents; She has to rely on a Smash attack read or a lucky grab at 170%. Marth, on the other hand, can kill easily with all of his aerials when tippered (as well as his F-tilt, I believe). This allows him to kill much more solidly than lucina which is huge. Marth is a very scary character! One tipper at 50% could end the opponent's stock, one well placed aerial at 110% could do so as well. Having tipper also allows him to apply much more shield pressure which adds to the potency of the character.

In general, he can kill more reliably, apply more pressure, combo better, and space better. He also has better (and by that I mean existent) results to boot. I feel like people are greatly overrating Lucina and greatly underrating Marth.

At least that's how I see it in the current metagame.

 

[Deleted member]

Why does everyone still think Lucina is near Marth? As time has gone on, I feel like the two characters have just gotten farther and farther apart. Marth's range buffs have made it even easier for him to space, which I feel is incredibly important to his character archetype. Lucina can't do that nearly as well; she gets much less reward for good spacing. The way I see it currently, she's the poor man's Marth that anyone can play even if they aren't good enough to space properly.

In my opinion, that puts her at much larger disadvantage than people in this thread seem to think. My problem with her is that she isn't scary. Yes, she has decent power on all parts of the blade, but she can't kill as reliably as Marth because her aerials don't kill at reasonable percents; She has to rely on a Smash attack read or a lucky grab at 170%. Marth, on the other hand, can kill easily with all of his aerials when tippered (as well as his F-tilt, I believe). This allows him to kill much more solidly than lucina which is huge. Marth is a very scary character! One tipper at 50% could end the opponent's stock, one well placed aerial at 110% could do so as well. Having tipper also allows him to apply much more shield pressure which adds to the potency of the character.

In general, he can kill more reliably, apply more pressure, combo better, and space better. He also has better (and by that I mean existent) results to boot. I feel like people are greatly overrating Lucina and greatly underrating Marth.

At least that's how I see it in the current metagame.

Lucina is more or less a theorycraft character similar to or even . Nobody actually mains them but they stay so close to their original counterparts because they retain the same core attributes.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Why does everyone still think Lucina is near Marth? As time has gone on, I feel like the two characters have just gotten farther and farther apart. Marth's range buffs have made it even easier for him to space, which I feel is incredibly important to his character archetype. Lucina can't do that nearly as well; she gets much less reward for good spacing. The way I see it currently, she's the poor man's Marth that anyone can play even if they aren't good enough to space properly.

In my opinion, that puts her at much larger disadvantage than people in this thread seem to think. My problem with her is that she isn't scary. Yes, she has decent power on all parts of the blade, but she can't kill as reliably as Marth because her aerials don't kill at reasonable percents; She has to rely on a Smash attack read or a lucky grab at 170%. Marth, on the other hand, can kill easily with all of his aerials when tippered (as well as his F-tilt, I believe). This allows him to kill much more solidly than lucina which is huge. Marth is a very scary character! One tipper at 50% could end the opponent's stock, one well placed aerial at 110% could do so as well. Having tipper also allows him to apply much more shield pressure which adds to the potency of the character.

In general, he can kill more reliably, apply more pressure, combo better, and space better. He also has better (and by that I mean existent) results to boot. I feel like people are greatly overrating Lucina and greatly underrating Marth.

At least that's how I see it in the current metagame.

You forgot to mention that you might have bias because you lose to my Marth every time kappa

Well, to be honest, we still don't really see loads from Lucina, and I myself have started to warm to the fact that Marth could potentially be high mid tier, but I honestly can't see her that high up given the circumstances. However, I don't think she's a bad character in the slightest. Somewhere mid tier possibly. Just because she lacks a tipper, she isn't bad.

 

[Xandercosm]

Lucina is more or less a theorycraft character similar to or even . Nobody actually mains them but they stay so close to their original counterparts because they retain the same core attributes.

My whole point is that she doesn't stay so close to Marth's core attributes. Why does everyone keep saying that?

You forgot to mention that you might have bias because you lose to my Marth every time kappa

That was such a weird thing to say lol...

Anyway, that's beside the point. Wether or not Lucina is a bad character doesn't matter. It's about how far she is from Marth. In my opinion, she is at least a tier apart from him because she lacks the pressure, spacing game, and kill options. Also, like I said, the fact that she doesn't have any rep/results doesn't help either.

 

[FamilyTeam]

No, I disagree.
The only thing I'll agree is that, in a perfect world, Lucina would be a worse Marth, but that is not the case. Lucina loses some options due to the lack of a tipper, but can benefit by not having it in a couple other points.
Not being tied to having a tipper means she doesn't have to be so precise with spacing, so she can be slightly more "free" in her game because she doesn't need to space as much.
Although her Down and Side Tilt are clearly inferior to Marth thanks to how space-dependant those two moves are with Marth, which often makes him land tippers, moves like her Side and Up Smash can be good without it. Her Side Smash is very fast, and since it's not tied to a tipper, she can use it more safely and still land quite a strong and punishing blow, and sometimes get KOs Marth might not have gotten. Her Up Smash is, for the most part, just a straight upgrade from Marth's, since it kills roughly 8-10% earlier depending on the character. Marth's Tippered Up Smash is devastating, but we rarely see those.
Then you get other moves, like their Up and Down Special, which are 99% identical, their Side Special, which not having a tipper can be good or bad, sometimes, and their Neutral B. IMO, Lucina's is better as a general move, while Marth's is clearly better if you get the Shield Break off.
Lucina isn't necessarily worse than Marth, just different.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Lucina is more or less a theorycraft character similar to or even . Nobody actually mains them but they stay so close to their original counterparts because they retain the same core attributes.

I wouldn't compare Lucina to Dark Pit since he and Pit are, besides 3 differences, the exact same chracater. Marth is different enough to be better than her, and vice versa.

 

[Eisen]

If you're getting gimped as Lucas, perhaps you're not the most credible player to talk about his viability. I don't care about the downvote, but I find the reasons you gave a bit ludicrous. Sure, you have to play defensively as Lucas, but the real kicker here is that Lucas has all the tools to play defensively as well as offensively (if you know what you're doing). His only "dinky" hitbox is really hit up air, and perhaps his down air hitboxes could fall under that category. His up smash should never be used, his down smash is a situational ledgeguard (which works wonders if used properly), but his fsmash is actually really quick. His airgame is somewhat bad, but that's about the only place where he's forced to "commit" to whichever options he chooses. Zair is a great option for approaches (and recovery, if you're talking about getting gimped), and it can lead into almost anything Lucas wants. His close-up game is great, since he has jab, ftilt, and a combo starter in dtilt. I find it interesting how you classify Lucas as "overrated", considering very few make him out to be very good at all, yet he is by no means a "bad" character. It's not like the only reason he's getting results in Japan is simply because "nobody knows the matchup". That only gets you so far.

It's not every stock no, but being gimped is a huge problem for Lucas imo. The main reasons for this being how long PKT takes to initiate the hitbox, its ability to be easily rammed through and resulting in Lucas being spiked, and zair's extended hurtbox. Yes, Lucas can stall with magnet or strafe with his incredible air speed and his PKT2 goes much further than Ness', but at the end of the day, it's much more difficult for him to challenge the onstage opponent than the opponent to challenge Lucas. The worst trade the opponent can get from that scenario is probably bair or dair, both of which are finnicky and puny-hitboxed moves that require the opponent to seriously mess up to pose any kind of threat. He's definitely not Marth/Lucina/Shulk/Cloud/Mac tier in the recovery spectrum, but not far ahead of them either.

Also, there are tons of people who are probably much less credible than even myself. I'm pretty bad, maybe top 10 in my inactive and terrible state (which is very small in number compared to east/west coast powerhouses), but to say I'm not the most credible player to talk about his viability is kinda moot here.

I guess I should reword what I said. It's not his defensive ability that's bad, it's just... what does one get out of playing defensive as this character compared to someone who plays offensively? In my experience, faster characters can just dance around Lucas (not being 2-stocked, just using colorful language) and wait for him to commit to something punishable, essentially just out-waiting him and his bad frame data/hitboxes. Speaking of bad hitboxes, jesus christ have you looked at nair. It's one of his main combo tools, but can't even hardly catch and opponent running past him blindly without just auto-escaping it cause the hitboxes are TINY. Zair is good, but I feel like saying he has like 3 good moves and that doesn't make him bad is like me as a Brawl Ganondorf player saying Ganon had 3 good moves in Brawl and that was ok. Lucas has incredible close-up game no doubt, a frame-2 jab is nothing to bat an eye at, but frame data things don't allow for him to mix up that jab with anything to convert off of if the opponent is ready for it.

A frame-17 smash being a character's best smash is kind of a pathetic thing to defend, honestly. It has decent kill power, and it's definitely usable? But it's just not enough along with his other tools to keep him anywhere above low-tier imo.

As for him being overrated/not, pretty much every tier list I see places Lucas in high mid or so, and I don't think he has results that back that claim up. Jigglypuff, the character most people consider to be worst in the game, has more results than Lucas. I realize that Jiggs is MUCH more popular than Lucas amongst smash veterans, but I don't think there's anything so strong going for him that one could justify him being above mid tier. I dunno, maybe I don't pay attention enough to tournament results since I mostly focus on my own fundamentals and don't do much spectating, and I do not by any means think I am the most credible Lucas main--I've just thought of the things you mentioned before and disagree.

 

[Vyrnx]

-
-
-
-
-

I'm pretty happy with where Samus is.
Also just because I haven't said it in a while, I really love Samus lol. Never been able to find a secondary because nobody is nearly as fun to play as for me.

 

[Xandercosm]

No, I disagree.
The only thing I'll agree is that, in a perfect world, Lucina would be a worse Marth, but that is not the case. Lucina loses some options due to the lack of a tipper, but can benefit by not having it in a couple other points.
Not being tied to having a tipper means she doesn't have to be so precise with spacing, so she can be slightly more "free" in her game because she doesn't need to space as much.
Although her Down and Side Tilt are clearly inferior to Marth thanks to how space-dependant those two moves are with Marth, which often makes him land tippers, moves like her Side and Up Smash can be good without it. Her Side Smash is very fast, and since it's not tied to a tipper, she can use it more safely and still land quite a strong and punishing blow, and sometimes get KOs Marth might not have gotten. Her Up Smash is, for the most part, just a straight upgrade from Marth's, since it kills roughly 8-10% earlier depending on the character. Marth's Tippered Up Smash is devastating, but we rarely see those.
Then you get other moves, like their Up and Down Special, which are 99% identical, their Side Special, which not having a tipper can be good or bad, sometimes, and their Neutral B. IMO, Lucina's is better as a general move, while Marth's is clearly better if you get the Shield Break off.
Lucina isn't necessarily worse than Marth, just different.

I think what you said here is similar to what I am saying, in a way. Lucina is a character anyone can get reward with wether or not they are good at spacing. However, the lack of tipper greatly reduces the reward for skilled play. High level players can space every move Marth has perfectly. That allows them to get much more reward since they can kill with tippered aerials and get incredibly early KOs off of well-spaced Smash attacks. Lucina doesn't reward skill nearly as much as Marth and that's what I think sets them apart greatly.

Don't take what I'm saying wrong, though. I don't mean to disparage Lucina. I don't think she is a bad character. I just feel like we need to drop the "wherever Marth is, Lucina should be right next to him" mentality.

 

[Dawn111]

+
+
+
+
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I personally think Palutena (with her default specials) is easily one of the worst characters in this game. She's still playable though.

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

Updated version of what?

I saw the swf community tier voted tier list was updated on April 18th. But I however don't see it.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

It's not every stock no, but being gimped is a huge problem for Lucas imo. The main reasons for this being how long PKT takes to initiate the hitbox, its ability to be easily rammed through and resulting in Lucas being spiked, and zair's extended hurtbox. Yes, Lucas can stall with magnet or strafe with his incredible air speed and his PKT2 goes much further than Ness', but at the end of the day, it's much more difficult for him to challenge the onstage opponent than the opponent to challenge Lucas. The worst trade the opponent can get from that scenario is probably bair or dair, both of which are finnicky and puny-hitboxed moves that require the opponent to seriously mess up to pose any kind of threat. He's definitely not Marth/Lucina/Shulk/Cloud/Mac tier in the recovery spectrum, but not far ahead of them either.

Also, there are tons of people who are probably much less credible than even myself. I'm pretty bad, maybe top 10 in my inactive and terrible state (which is very small in number compared to east/west coast powerhouses), but to say I'm not the most credible player to talk about his viability is kinda moot here.

I guess I should reword what I said. It's not his defensive ability that's bad, it's just... what does one get out of playing defensive as this character compared to someone who plays offensively? In my experience, faster characters can just dance around Lucas (not being 2-stocked, just using colorful language) and wait for him to commit to something punishable, essentially just out-waiting him and his bad frame data/hitboxes. Speaking of bad hitboxes, jesus christ have you looked at nair. It's one of his main combo tools, but can't even hardly catch and opponent running past him blindly without just auto-escaping it cause the hitboxes are TINY. Zair is good, but I feel like saying he has like 3 good moves and that doesn't make him bad is like me as a Brawl Ganondorf player saying Ganon had 3 good moves in Brawl and that was ok. Lucas has incredible close-up game no doubt, a frame-2 jab is nothing to bat an eye at, but frame data things don't allow for him to mix up that jab with anything to convert off of if the opponent is ready for it.

A frame-17 smash being a character's best smash is kind of a pathetic thing to defend, honestly. It has decent kill power, and it's definitely usable? But it's just not enough along with his other tools to keep him anywhere above low-tier imo.

As for him being overrated/not, pretty much every tier list I see places Lucas in high mid or so, and I don't think he has results that back that claim up. Jigglypuff, the character most people consider to be worst in the game, has more results than Lucas. I realize that Jiggs is MUCH more popular than Lucas amongst smash veterans, but I don't think there's anything so strong going for him that one could justify him being above mid tier. I dunno, maybe I don't pay attention enough to tournament results since I mostly focus on my own fundamentals and don't do much spectating, and I do not by any means think I am the most credible Lucas main--I've just thought of the things you mentioned before and disagree.

Lucas has far more results the puff, pretty sure he got top 8 at a Japan tourney iirc

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think what you said here is similar to what I am saying, in a way. Lucina is a character anyone can get reward with wether or not they are good at spacing. However, the lack of tipper greatly reduces the reward for skilled play. High level players can space every move Marth has perfectly. That allows them to get much more reward since they can kill with tippered aerials and get incredibly early KOs off of well-spaced Smash attacks. Lucina doesn't reward skill nearly as much as Marth and that's what I think sets them apart greatly.

Don't take what I'm saying wrong, though. I don't mean to disparage Lucina. I don't think she is a bad character. I just feel like we need to drop the "wherever Marth is, Lucina should be right next to him" mentality.

The problem is that you don't even see players like Pugwest with their Marth landing every single blow with him exactly like they want. Playing Marth can be more risky, but also more rewarding. Playing Lucina is more consistent, and some players value consistency more than that, which is why, IMO, Marth and Lucina are pretty much equal, as choosing between one or the other is more of a matter of preference.

 

[Zerp]

I saw the swf community tier voted tier list was updated on April 18th. But I however don't see it.

This is the one your looking for:
1:
2:
3:()
4:
5:
6:
7:
It can be a bit confusing but if your looking for it after any update, it's the one listed in the OP that's not in a spoiler.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I feel like we need to drop the "wherever Marth is, Lucina should be right next to him" mentality.

I can go down with this

 

[Bowserboy3]

The problem is that you don't even see players like Pugwest with their Marth landing every single blow with him exactly like they want. Playing Marth can be more risky, but also more rewarding. Playing Lucina is more consistent, and some players value consistency more than that, which is why, IMO, Marth and Lucina are pretty much equal, as choosing between one or the other is more of a matter of preference.

Even though I do agree with this to somewhat an extent, the point is that Marth can still convert his sourspots into something, so if he fails landing his tipper, in most cases, he can get something else or extra. And the fact he can get so much more reward anyway off of landing that tipper makes him in general the better character, compared to Lucina, who while has consistency, lacking that tipper mechanic while a positive in some areas, is more a negative in more areas than positive.

But this is what people don't see. While in most cases, lacking the tipper is sums up to more negatives than positives, some people ride on that to say she's a bad character, when she really isn't. I will say that after all of Marth's buffs and results, I can't quite see Marth and Lucina exactly next to eachother (for example, I believe Marth could be near the bottom of the next tier up; I can't see Lucina being there). While Marth I think will be a few spaces higher, it's only a few spaces, like 2 or 3, something like that.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Even though I do agree with this to somewhat an extent, the point is that Marth can still convert his sourspots into something, so if he fails landing his tipper, in most cases, he can get something else or extra. And the fact he can get so much more reward anyway off of landing that tipper makes him in general the better character, compared to Lucina, who while has consistency, lacking that tipper mechanic while a positive in some areas, is more a negative in more areas than positive.

But this is what people don't see. While in most cases, lacking the tipper is sums up to more negatives than positives, some people ride on that to say she's a bad character, when she really isn't. I will say that after all of Marth's buffs and results, I can't quite see Marth and Lucina exactly next to eachother (for example, I believe Marth could be near the bottom of the next tier up; I can't see Lucina being there). While Marth I think will be a few spaces higher, it's only a few spaces, like 2 or 3, something like that.

I always saw it like that, Marth being higher than Lucina but not that higher, since Marth overall can lead to more rewards, but it's not like Lucina is a straight downgrade like some people in this thread seem to think she is. She might be slightly lower than Marth, yes, but not like an entire tier of difference instead of just a couple of spots.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I always saw it like that, Marth being higher than Lucina but not that higher, since Marth overall can lead to more rewards, but it's not like Lucina is a straight downgrade like some people in this thread seem to think she is. She might be slightly lower than Marth, yes, but not like an entire tier of difference instead of just a couple of spots.

Though, it still depends on placement. Like, for example, Marth may or may not be able to slot in with the likes of DK, R.O.B and Ike now in the tier above. I just cannot see Lucina being THAT high. However, with that said, if Marth was there, she'd be somewhere near the top of the tier below him. My thinking is something like that nowadays.

 

[Deleted member]

we should talk about how funny it is how is so low atm, considering she has better results than everybody in tier 5 and even some characters in tier 4.

 

[kiddo805]

+1
+1

That's all for now.

 

[jespoke]

was recently buffed a lot and has the votes in this round to rise. I would have been surprised to see her high up since people regularly placed her bottom 3 before and she doesn't have that much exposure

 

[Xandercosm]

What I wonder is: Where the hell is Kirby in the tier list?! People always seem divided as to his placement. Some people think he's underrated and others think he's overrated. I don't know what to think myself but Kid Goggles' performance with him at Pound 2016 was interesting. Will we ever decide on where Kirby is?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

It's very tough, again, he definitely has those high/top tier MUs that he ain't no slouch in.
(Mostly from what I read/recall)
Then he has those MUs where you want to just jump off a cliff
(debatable) Think I might be missing one more, but whatevs.

So as a counter pick against certain characters, he actually rocks at that, and he doesn't necessarily get destroyed by anyone, because ALL his MUs are doable, but he has to work harder then other characters to do well, alone of course.

So it's tough to say, because again, from what I HEARD, he's considered to be trash in Japan, which may be one of the reasons for his consistent buffs through patches, which if that's the case is completely fine with me

So I think he's somewhere between mid-mid to low-mid

 

[TMNTSSB4]

What I wonder is: Where the hell is Kirby in the tier list?! People always seem divided as to his placement. Some people think he's underrated and others think he's overrated. I don't know what to think myself but Kid Goggles' performance with him at Pound 2016 was interesting. Will we ever decide on where Kirby is?

Let's just have and leave him somewhere in the middle