Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

-1 even I have to admit that's pretty high, Tier 4 somewhere close to the bottom seems legit for him.
+1 People will never understand this character -_- she so deserves to be higher.
+1 Eh, Why not?
-1 I'm still really having a hard time seeing if he's better then Zelda.
+1 Not saying she's good, but she's a little too underestimated a lot of the time.

Reserving my votes, seriously need to see others before I make changes

I'm changing my Kirby down vote to an Upvote, worried he may fall waaaay too far, and while Mewtwo is likely high tier now, I have seen quite a few up votes IIRC, so just in case he doesn't have rise too high where everyone will likely down vote.......ill change my bowser vote, so here's my list now.

+1
-1

 

[TimG57867]

Time for a few votes to start:

+1 I was afraid all that upvoting would put him in Tier 3. I am pretty sure we wanted him in the bottom of tier 4 but since no one reads previous votes first he overshot. This vote is a (futile) attempt to keep him falling back to Tier 5 and prevent another round of too many people upvoting him back up.

-1 As I said before, losing Tweek torpedo'd his meta and his results. The people who still play him like Vicegrip and the Japanese ones aren't successful enough to compensate for his theory. And in terms of theory he's probably not much better than if at all.

-1

Gonna wait on the last two. Will probably upvote , , or downvote for .

 

[Bigbomb2]

+1 Give this big turtle stage control and it'll hurt. Get him off the stage and lol cya
+1 She has all kind of neat stuff that I think makes her really dangerous in the right hands
+1 He lends himself well to those who are good at reads
+1 Good Wii Fits are fun to watch. I think this character can only go up personally
-1 I dunno, just feel he has is a teeny bit too high but what do I know

 

[Browny]

Look, theres nothing wrong with counter voting. But imagine wh

Some of the total votes for certain characters have gotten rather out of hand now... mainly Greninja and Kirby. At this rate, Greninja is one - vote away from dropping 2 tiers...

Don't worry, the phase after this one (so not the next voting period, I'm talking about the second round of voting) focused on 1-2 tiers at a time. If Greninja was in tier 4 then, he likely would be immediately bumped up into 3 or possibly 2 before people vote on his placement within that tier. When focusing on fewer characters at a time, the characters that are most out of place will be very obvious and will move straight away.

 

[Adamas]

- 1
- 1
- 1
+ 1
+ 1 (he's really good. why is he even this low?)

Allow me to start off by saying that I wholeheartedly agree with you that Lucario should be placed higher than he is at the current. I personally think that he has the potential to become a top 15 character, but that is just me. With that said, Lucario's low placement is due to a lack of tournament results, which is partially due to a lack (not a complete lack, however) of people representing him in tournaments. ( I think that this is due to how complex of a character that he is, in terms of his "inconsistent nature" in relation to his combo game, which varies drastically throughout the course of a match due to rage and aura)

 

[DPKdebator]

+1 Mario
-1 Sonic
-1 Bayonetta
-1 Cloud
+1 Doc

 

[SpaceCanary]

+1 As I've said before, Link is often underestimated. He has a great projectile/zoning game for a swordsman, he's powerful, and he has some crazy edgeguarding options. At any rate, he's better than the rest of his tier.
-1 As I've also said before, Cloud is the oddball of the top tier, kind of like a cross between Lucina and Mac. He definitely deserves to be placed high, but I always think that should be in Tier 2.
+1 Peach has great results, and we definitely shouldn't count her out.
I'm saving my last two votes to see what happens. I'd also upvote , , or or downvote or , but I think that's already been done for me.

 

[Y2Kay]

Honestly Peach doesn't have great results. She doesn't live up to the hype as super technical high tier her main's claim.

 

[Panka11]

+1
-1

 

[Dark_Link05]

-1
-1
+1
+1
+1

 

[NimbusSpark]

-1
I just can't see Ike hanging in there in Tier 3 anymore. Whilst he has the 'Ganondorf Factor' of pretty much landing a few good hits netting him a massive percentage lead, although like Ganon, his recovery is linear and predictable. Along with that, while Ike has early kill options, he doesn't have that many fast kill options. Not only that, but pretty much most of the characters in Tier 3, let alone some of the characters in Tier 4, can go well against him thanks to his rather polarized playstyle.

+1 (Counter-Vote)
This is just so Kirby doesn't sink like a stone through the tiers. I can potentially see him around at the bottom of Tier 4, but not higher.

-1
The true question is how such a flawed character managed to get so high in the list. He lacks good approach options, the lightest breeze can kill him quickly, and he doesn't have fast kill options nor known true set-ups to actually get the kill, especially at later percents.

+1
Ryu is definitely too low for now in this point in the tier list. Whilst I do have to say people are right, he is potentially one of the most difficult characters to learn in the game, and his representation is slowly being reduced, he's just plain too strong to even remotely be in Tier 3, especially since his higher difficulty curve has saved him from being nerfed on a lot of occasions. You might say, 'Oh! Ryu is too slow!' and 'Oh! Ryu's recovery isn't that good!' but think about this. Ness, a character who is two places above Ryu, is deemed a viable character despite his flaws in his speed and recovery. In fact, Ness's recovery and mobility are even worse compared to Ryu, not to mention Ryu himself has so much more powerful tools to his arsenal. Not only that, but in reality, Ryu's so called weaknesses aren't as bad as people thought, as his mobility in reality is surprisingly good and the only weakness in his recovery is how linear it can be. His strengths are just too great and his weaknesses are too minimal for him to simply be in Tier 3.

 

[Wintermelon43]

inb4 Kirby doesn't go down due to counter-voting

 

[CalamitySB]

But Bayonetta isn't in her own tier...?

Also, you made 6 votes. You're only allowed 5 votes. You might want to make sure that's changed so you get your votes counted properly.

It was mostly a general preventative measure. I would like it if she stayed where she is and not jump up to her own tier. If she happens to fall, I'm also okay with that, as I don't think she has the results yet to solidify her top position.

Also, that's for letting me know about the five limit. My want for symmetry got the best of me and it slipped my mind.

+1 Mewtwo: He's won more majors than over half the characters above him. He deserves that high tier spot. Match up ignorance be damned, that won't let you win majors by itself.

All he needs is a few more high tournament placings before he's a solid high tier. Though I'll say that match-up experience, being a solid player, and the absence of the man who has won nearly every Smash 4 major doesn't lead to a high position. I'm not denying that Mewtwo is a high tier character, more or less that I need to see him place in more than one tournament before I can say his high tier position is 100% deserved.

Some of the total votes for certain characters have gotten rather out of hand now... mainly Greninja and Kirby. At this rate, Greninja is one - vote away from dropping 2 tiers...

Well, that's not great. I hope that the next few votes counteract this. Greninja is too solid to drop two tiers and Kirby isn't bad enough for that either. Hope things smooth out from here.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

+1 Ike
-1 Corrin
-1 Mewtwo
+1 Bowser
-1 Kirby

 

[Chalice]

- He is not a tier above and when they have been outplacing him and his notable players get beaten by said characters
- Too high. He's a decent counterpick for certain characters but that alone shouldn't put him all the way in Tier 3, even at the bottom of it
+ He's been getting decent results as of late and I can see him in the same vein as the Pits and Ike. He also has a solid match up with and .
+ Scatt won a stacked tourney with M2K and Ryo present. I think that alone at least puts him in lower high tier. Also, when he played against Larry, it looked like the Fox matchup isn't THAT bad. He definitely has tools to deal with a few top tiers and many characters from Tier 3.
+ Yes, he's not that good but he DEFINITELY isn't worse than the characters above him

 

[Stick Dude]

+1
+1
-1
-1
-1

 

[Bowserboy3]

Looks at all the support,

Cries tears of happiness.

---

Seriously though, it's really interesting how opinions have changed on Marth, and I love it. I co-main Marth, and I always said he would never rise above being a mid tier; historically, when I created a tier list, I always placed Marth around the 29 - 30th position. But, extra buffs and results happened, and even I have been swayed to the fact that he could be a tad bit higher. Heck, even Marth has started pulling in a few results in Japan. That really says something, as Japan used to sh*t on him big time. I could see him now around where DK and Ike are, at around 25th ish or something, at the least.

 

[Deleted member]

Why are people downvoting characters who are already in the bottom 5 lol

 

[Bowserboy3]

All he needs is a few more high tournament placings before he's a solid high tier. Though I'll say that match-up experience, being a solid player, and the absence of the man who has won nearly every Smash 4 major doesn't lead to a high position. I'm not denying that Mewtwo is a high tier character, more or less that I need to see him place in more than one tournament before I can say his high tier position is 100% deserved

This is basically my opinion on Mewtwo so far. I am not against him being a high tier/tier 2 character, and can see him there, but I want to see him do something like this again, or have multiple players place highly with him before I put him there.

For me, he's at the top of tier 3 right now.

 

[Deleted member]

This is basically my opinion on Mewtwo so far. I am not against him being a high tier/tier 2 character, and can see him there, but I want to see him do something like this again, or have multiple players place highly with him before I put him there.

For me, he's at the top of tier 3 right now.

He has already gotten great results at majors thanks to Mew² and Blue. Are we going to forget Blue beating Nairo (even though he did still lose to him in Grands), placing high at multiple KTARs, Abadango defeating Nyanko's Bayonetta at a tournament prior to Pound, Mew² 6-0ing Mew2King or him being one of the top players in Texas? Another Mewtwo player at Pound by the name of WaDiRob, who dropped R.O.B. for him, and ended up getting 33rd place. It's annoying to see many people think Mewtwo didn't do anything of note before Pound.

 

[Routa]

If we went by results Link would be high tier just like Mewtwo. See what I'm trying to say?

I personally cannot place Mewtwo accurately, but I believe his placing is about right (I think he should be slightly lower within the current tier).

 

[Deleted member]

If we went by results Link would be high tier just like Mewtwo. See what I'm trying to say?

I personally cannot place Mewtwo accurately, but I believe his placing is about right (I think he should be slightly lower within the current tier).

Has Link ever won a national? What are his results like in America and Japan? I'm aware he does well in Europe.

 

[WishXitso]

+1
+1
+1
-1
+1

 

[Bowserboy3]

Has Link ever won a national? What are his results like in America and Japan? I'm aware he does well in Europe.

I know Link is a lot more common in Europe and pulls in results here quite commonly, but I am unsure how he fairs elsewhere. In a similar vein, Mewtwo is extremely uncommon, and almost unspoken of in Europe.

Off topic a moment (as a general thing, I'm not putting words into your mouth), I do want to say it makes me laugh when people try to say "X character is shouldn't be too high because they only place well in Y region". I'm not being funny, but we are all on the same planet, we're all playing the same game. Results are results, regardless of where you are. It's not like Melee where matchups and stuff differ depending on region; we're all playing the same patch. If a character gets results in Europe, you shouldn't discount them because you don't live there etc.

Nothing Mewtwo has done has ever been as "major" or noteworthy as Pound. All the other tournaments are noteworthy, but not Pound level. So what Routa alludes to is true; if say Link, was to win something huge such as Pound like Mewtwo, while he has lots of good results, I'd want to see him do it on a constant basis before we put him up there.

I know there are others that share this belief. I don't think there is anyone out there who thinks Mewtwo is lower than where he is now. It's not like we're saying "oh, he's a low tier character, I want more proof before we put him up there". I can see he's good, which is why he's up there, but for him to be amongst the likes of Meta Knight, Fox, Mario, Sonic etc, all characters that get high results on a constant basis, I want to see Mewtwo get high results on a constant basis also. Yes, I get he's won Pound, but like others have mentioned, lack of the best player, potential lack of matchup knowledge etc could have all attributed to this. If he starts getting constant high results, we know that it really isn't lack of matchup knowledge or stuff like that, and he deserves to be up in tier 2.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I know Link is a lot more common in Europe and pulls in results here quite commonly, but I am unsure how he fairs elsewhere. In a similar vein, Mewtwo is extremely uncommon, and almost unspoken of in Europe.

Off topic a moment (as a general thing, I'm not putting words into your mouth), I do want to say it makes me laugh when people try to say "X character is shouldn't be too high because they only place well in Y region". I'm not being funny, but we are all on the same planet, we're all playing the same game. Results are results, regardless of where you are. It's not like Melee where matchups and stuff differ depending on region; we're all playing the same patch. If a character gets results in Europe, you shouldn't discount them because you don't live there etc.

Nothing Mewtwo has done has ever been as "major" or noteworthy as Pound. All the other tournaments are noteworthy, but not Pound level. So what Routa alludes to is true; if say Link, was to win something huge such as Pound like Mewtwo, while he has lots of good results, I'd want to see him do it on a constant basis before we put him up there.

I know there are others that share this belief. I don't think there is anyone out there who thinks Mewtwo is lower than where he is now. It's not like we're saying "oh, he's a low tier character, I want more proof before we put him up there". I can see he's good, which is why he's up there, but for him to be amongst the likes of Meta Knight, Fox, Mario, Sonic etc, all characters that get high results on a constant basis, I want to see Mewtwo get high results on a constant basis also. Yes, I get he's won Pound, but like others have mentioned, lack of the best player, potential lack of matchup knowledge etc could have all attributed to this. If he starts getting constant high results, we know that it really isn't lack of matchup knowledge or stuff like that, and he deserves to be up in tier 2.

I mean Feelicks explained what Mewtwo does before

 

[ludvig4]

+1 (way too many tournament results to be the lowest)
-1
-1
-1
-1

 

[Deleted member]

+1 (way too many tournament results to be the lowest)
-1
-1
-1
-1

eh?

besides BrianYDG's 17th place placing at Super Smash Con (where he didn't even go solo Puff, he used alongside her), what results had Puff had in majors?

 

[SpaceCanary]

Honestly Peach doesn't have great results. She doesn't live up to the hype as super technical high tier her main's claim.

Well, maybe not great results, but she is at least used more than other mid-tiers such as Lucario or Olimar (correct me if I'm wrong) that get kind of lost in the noise. She suffers from the Robin/Ryu problem where people don't want to deal with her high learning curve for the results she gets.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

True that, you could debate it's still the highest learning curve in the game, that isn't to say the reward you get for it isn't worth it because it by all means is Fantastic.....but again....you almost have to stick to her compared to any other character because she isn't really a secondary.

Granted I don't play her anymore because she's too technical for me, I know she still has the untapped potential and skills to be a threat.
You need to seriously legit PLAY this character for.....idk a few weeks to see what most Peach mains mean by her having potential, and I, for one, believe it's there.

 

[Deleted member]

True that, you could debate it's still the highest learning curve in the game, that isn't to say the reward you get for it isn't worth it because it by all means is Fantastic.....but again....you almost have to stick to her compared to any other character because she isn't really a secondary.

Granted I don't play her anymore because she's too technical for me, I know she still has the untapped potential and skills to be a threat.
You need to seriously legit PLAY this character for.....idk a few weeks to see what most Peach mains mean by her having potential, and I, for one, believe it's there.

What are her high/top tier matchups like? I don't play Peach so I wouldn't know, lol. Is she in particular roadblocked by anybody?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-139#post-20992781

If you look on that page, someone posted Umekis Peach MU chart
I can't really give explanations, I don't play her anymore and I'm just a simple FG player
I'm positive this was BEFORE the patch

 

[hiramsthoughts]

+Ryu, Sheik, Rosaluma
-Cloud, Greninja

 

[Furret24]

http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-139#post-20992781

If you look on that page, someone posted Umekis Peach MU chart
I can't really give explanations, I don't play her anymore and I'm just a simple FG player
I'm positive this was BEFORE the patch

I can't really comment on most of that

But Umekis must really hate the Game and Watch matchup. G&W vs Peach is certainly not 6:4 in our favor. >.>

 

[jespoke]

According to my count of the votes the most downvoted are Kirby(-5), Cloud(-6) and Greninja(-7). That is way too much for characters that need to go down a few spots, not a few tiers, so im going countervoting

+1
+1

Marth is sitting on some + votes, but i think his distance from Lucina is too big as is, so:

+1

I personally think Mario, Sonic and Fox belong alongside eachother, so (+6) for Mario who is already topping tier 2 is overdoing it:

-1

My last vote i may change later, but for now....

+1


(Also, i counted Ryu to (+8), so he is only +2 away from tier 1!?)

 

[Rhinomaster22]

+1 , +1 , +1 , -1, -1

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

+

 

[Deleted member]

+

>sees Pally, Samus, and Lucy upvotes

y-you upvoted my waifus, ilu

 

[edde]

-1 diddy
+1 sonic
+1 bayonetta
+1 cloud
-1 sheik

 

[Eisen]

+1 generally good damage output, intangibility on recovery means he's hard to gimp for most characters, gets the option to combo into kill moves with low-commital moves like his tilts, and good movement. Even if I think he's kinda bad in a defensive position and doesn't do too well against zoners, he's still a really strong character and his positives outweigh those negative bits by how much he gets out of it.
-1 This character disappoints me more and more every time I play him. Dinky-ass hitboxes, non-sensical startup/cooldown (especially on smashes), and very gimpable recovery make this character only viable if you use B-stick and/or play defensive as all hell. Overrated imo, once people know how to deal with his stuff, they'll find out he's bad. Can't get in on anybody, especially considering how close he has to get and how long his moves take to come out once you commit. Basically, you have to have godlike movement fundamentals to get anywhere with Lucas imo.

-1 *Obligatory "Shulk isn't THAT good guys, stop overhyping him" post*

 

[Bowserboy3]

only viable if you play defensive as all hell

Not calling you out personally, but what is it with people moaning about defensive play? It's things like this why Reddit for example continues to rank characters such as Samus low because inexperienced players can't quite get it into their head that offense isn't always the best option. Some character are good because they can play defensively, such as Marth, Toon Link, Fox, Rosalina etc.

It's part of this reason why I feel Bayonetta gets so much hate; she's a bit of a rude awakening to anit-defence players. In order to have the best time against Bayonetta, you need to play safe, and punish Bayonetta's mistakes. Why do you think characters like Samus and Toon Link are considered to have a good time against her? Maybe it's because they can play safe from a distance, being defensive? Some players refuse to accept the fact that some characters are far better at defence. In turn, there are characters that do excel far better at offense. Try playing Falcon defensively, or Samus offensively. Yeah, not quite the same effect.