Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[wedl!!]

peach and yoshi are meme characters

 

[Deleted member]

peach and yoshi are meme characters

they're p much the "secret high tiers" that only have the results of a mid-tier character.

i would've lumped in the same group but top 8 at MLG and tipped off was nothing to sneeze at. the character still lacks the representation he needs though, even with Reflex still continuing to put in the work with him.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Kinda doubt that.....but the lack of Peach players sucks though :/

I know she has what it takes to be high tier....but the work for it.....when characters like Bayo or Cloud are here....not so sure it's worth it.
I mean at least in this game there's not that 1 broken character stopping her and others, so I bet after a few years(yes..I mean years) we will see her potential, as long as we have Umeki or Slayers, or Kie.

Then again, that's all down the road, if we look at it now, then she's either very bottom high tier or very top high-mid, still great, but so under represented.

I might be wrong, but from what I can remember Dtilt to Upb or Fair is a kill confirm(though the percent window is pretty tight at higher percents)
Throw turnips to fair also true combos I believe.
Her amazing edge guarding can't be ignored either, and she still has the shield safety in a good amount of her moves to harass and pressure people.

To technical for me is why I mostly stopped playing her, but she's still fun as heck and creative.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

-Corrin
+Ike
+Robin
-Samus
-Lucas

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

How does Bidou affect Fox tier-wise? That video had him doing bidou pivots like they were wavedashes :O

 

[Deleted member]

+
-
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+

 

[delkf]

Sheik + (no way she's that low)
Mewtwo +
Lucario +
Peach -
Ryu -

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Sheik=Atleast Tier 3

 

[Bowserboy3]

How does Bidou affect Fox tier-wise? That video had him doing bidou pivots like they were wavedashes :O

Not to start a discussion on this topic, but while that looked fancy and powerful on paper, what people are oblivious to is that Fox could have closed the distance and put pressure on the opponent quicker by dashing. It certainly looked fancy, but in terms of effectiveness, it was much less effective than a standard dash.

I have also seen people hyperventilating with excitement over the sliding spotdodge. "THIS IS THE WAVEDASH, HYPEE!", just to quote a comment on a YouTube video I saw. While it looks exciting, it's far from the truth. I suppose it could be a cool niche option for dodging an attack, but it's most certainly not a movement option like wavedashing. Why? Just think about it for a second. When you wavedashed, you could act the instant you touched the ground, the instant you started the slide. However, the sliding spotdodge is almost useless in this regard, as you are stuck in spotdodge lag while sliding, and in a situation you wanted to quickly close the gap, you could easily do a fox trot, or if you needed to smash, a foxtrot cancelled Smash.

Bidou also in general, vitrually cripples aerial prowess, and with characters having such strong aerial games in general, I can't see why they would opt for Bidou. As Browny stated earlier, Bidou isn't new. People are acting like it's new and game changing, when it's been about for quite a while. It died back then due to the limitations of it, the unique techniques not possessing enough usage, and most importantly, the control scheme, and it will most likely die for the same reasons again here.

I'm not against Bidou. If it becomes the norm, that's great, but I really, really can't see it.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

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+

 

[Deleted member]

rip lmao

Will Puff ever get any help at this point?

 

[Arcadenik]

Basically DHD sucks at killing the same way as Swordfighter does. By this I mean that he does have a lot of kill moves, but none of them are reliable.

Probably because the person with the NES Zapper sucks at playing Duck Hunt in the 1980s... of course the NES Zapper kill moves are going to be unreliable in Smash.

 

[Xandercosm]

Not to be pushy, but maybe it's time for an update, Browny ?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Not to be pushy, but maybe it's time for an update, Browny ?

He just updated this on the 27th, and it's the 30th right now. Way before he usually updates.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

rip lmao

Will Puff ever get any help at this point?

No

Not to be pushy, but maybe it's time for an update, Browny ?

He already updated M8; wait until Wrestlemania is over to start asking for an update

 

[Bowserboy3]

rip lmao

Will Puff ever get any help at this point?

If we get another surprise patch in a month or so, and Puff yet again is untouched, I think (if it wasn't enough already) that is the sign that the balance team think Puff is fine, which is unfortunate, because she really could do with a boost.

 

[Dusk Pit]

If we get another surprise patch in a month or so, and Puff yet again is untouched, I think (if it wasn't enough already) that is the sign that the balance team think Puff is fine, which is unfortunate, because she really could do with a boost.

What Puff really needs is a buff to her flower damage and she would be fine.

 

[Xandercosm]

He just updated this on the 27th, and it's the 30th right now. Way before he usually updates.

I guess I wasn't paying attention...

 

[Darkpit54]

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-

 

[Deleted member]

real talk, what's with the storm of Roy upvotes? What are people seeing in this character? I'm actually curious. Not slamming anyone for their opinion.

 

[apparently fuz]

real talk, what's with the storm of Roy upvotes? What are people seeing in this character? I'm actually curious. Not slamming anyone for their opinion.

Don't you see? He's got that hidden potential man, sleep on him and you'll regret it.

Actually, I have no clue. I guess people vote for the characters that they like, hence why you see a lot of Pit/Dark Pit upvotes even though they're not really justified at all.

 

[Y2Kay]

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i would down vote Peach too, if I could

 

[Dinoman96]

An honest theory I have: Jigglypuff is supposed to be bad on purpose.

The strange thing is, despite being ranked right in the middle of Smash 64's tier list, Sakurai actually intended Jigglypuff to be a joke character (http://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/13/news-flash-smash-bros-dojo-jigglypuff/). To me it seems that she ended up being decent in that game by complete accident.

For Melee, however, Sakurai claimed that Pichu took the role of the intentionally weak character from Jiggs, and thus they decided to buff her quite a bit. However, since then, Pichu's been axed from the series, so I honestly think with him gone, Sakurai decided to give the joke character role back to Jigglypuff...but this time, he would mean it for real.

 

[Bowserboy3]

An honest theory I have: Jigglypuff is supposed to be bad on purpose.

The strange thing is, despite being ranked right in the middle of Smash 64's tier list, Sakurai actually intended Jigglypuff to be a joke character (http://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/13/news-flash-smash-bros-dojo-jigglypuff/). To me it seems that she ended up being decent in that game by complete accident.

For Melee, however, Sakurai claimed that Pichu took the role of the intentionally weak character from Jiggs, and thus they decided to buff her quite a bit. However, since then, Pichu's been axed from the series, so I honestly think with him gone, Sakurai decided to give the joke character role back to Jigglypuff...but this time, he would mean it for real.

Hmm, good analogy.

However, it depends on how you see the term "weakest". Sakurai could be reffering to being physically weak, as in moves doing weaker knockback or damage (which this, is actually true, as Puff's moves in SSB have some of the lowest knockback, and actually how I see it). If we look at it this way, Sheik is the weakest character in Smash 4. She's weak, but a strong, potent choice due to other reasons. It's a similar story for Puff in SSB, though not quite as extreme. She can pull off pretty neat combos thanks to her weakness.

Also, Sakurai has never outright stated that Jigglypuff is the joke character in 64, but just designed to be the weakest. He has however, exclaimed that Pichu is a pure joke character.

 

[Munomario777]

Hmm, good analogy.

However, it depends on how you see the term "weakest". Sakurai could be reffering to being physically weak, as in moves doing weaker knockback or damage (which this, is actually true, as Puff's moves in SSB have some of the lowest knockback, and actually how I see it). If we look at it this way, Sheik is the weakest character in Smash 4. She's weak, but a strong, potent choice due to other reasons. It's a similar story for Puff in SSB, though not quite as extreme. She can pull off pretty neat combos thanks to her weakness.

Also, Sakurai has never outright stated that Jigglypuff is the joke character in 64, but just designed to be the weakest. He has however, exclaimed that Pichu is a pure joke character.

In the last game, Jigglypuff was designed to be the weakest character.
(But even so, it could be rather powerful depending on one’s playstyle)

But this time around, since Pichu has taken over the role of ‘intrinsically weak character’, Jigglypuff was re-designed a little bit.
​

I think that he meant weak as in "not very effective." He says that Jigglypuff was designed to be the weakest, but could be very powerful in the right hands. This would seem to imply that Sakurai meant it not in the sense of attack damage, but in that Jigglypuff's multiple attributes (weak attacks, light weight, etc) were designed to make her an ineffective character overall. After all, a good player does not increase the damage that attacks deal. (Unless it's an amiibo.)

But in Melee, since Pichu (the new lightest character, which also deals recoil damage to itself to make it very ineffective overall, despite having multiple powerful attacks) was the new "worst character," Sakurai gave Jigglypuff some Jigglybuffs to make her more effective. This includes improved weight, air speed, jumps, range, attack speed, attack power, combo ability, and the almighty Rest. Now, in Brawl and Smash 4, Jigglypuff returns as the new "worst character." Conveniently enough for Sakurai, the physics changes since Melee were just about enough to do it without that many other changes required.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

You see a lot of Pit/Dark Pit upvotes even though they're not really justified at all.

Have you not seen Earth play him? Just because a the Pits can't do infinite fairs like Shiek could, get you into an infinite uair chain like Mario, or uair to UpB doesn't mean they're not justified.

•Most balanced characters in the game(s)
•Decent enough combos and mixups to survive
•Pretty balanced MU Sheet(nothing higher than a 60 besides Zamus...maybe)
•Electroshock
•Arrows
•Personality as a little bonus that doesn't really relate, but is true anyway.

 

[Bowserboy3]

(the quote below is in reference to Pit/Dark Pit)

•Most balanced characters in the game(s)

 

[Vyrnx]

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[T4ylor]

Bowserboy3 Nah, Mario isn't the most balanced character anymore.

- (minus)

 

[Deleted member]

Can Lucina stay in Marth's tier this time around? This is like the first time we've ever gotten her placement right lol

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

- (minus)

Charizard's been significantly buffed over the last few balance patches, and so I severly doubt he's in Tier 7 anymore; hell, even low Tier 6 is (at least IMO) too low, but we rank on many aspects, and unless we get a big push to the Charizard meta by guys like M2K, I think Charizard is at around mid-low 6, at least for now.

I agree that Roy and Mac do need to go down a bit; they don't do much in tournaments and they just don't have the results.

Yoshi's already slid down the power ranks enough, though, so I can't say downvoting him any more is helpful.

Ganondorf is certainly not in Tier 8, no matter how you slice it, after Patch 1.1.5. The buffs make him a better character than anybody in 8, so putting him in Tier 8, even if at the top of 8, is an injustice to Ganon's huge buffs.

+1 (1.1.5 has supremely aided Charizard's last few glaring flaws, and so he definitely should go up in the rankings a fair bit more.)

+1 (Like with Charizard, 1.1.5 has really helped Mewtwo as a character, so I think he might be above at least Peach in the tier list.)

+1 (Buffs have really aided Samus here, and I think she might be above Marth in terms of tier listing, especially since we've been seeing a rise in Samus tournament play lately.)

-1 (The loss of his infamous combo has really hurt Meta Knight pretty badly. I think he's below Pikachu at this point, but consensus will need to build for him to move).

-1 (Mii Swordfighter is just not good compared to the other sword fighters in this game, and Swordfighters don't seem to be that prevalent anyways; I think that the Swordfighter is below Little Mac, honestly.)

 

[apparently fuz]

Have you not seen Earth play him? Just because a the Pits can't do infinite fairs like Shiek could, get you into an infinite uair chain like Mario, or uair to UpB doesn't mean they're not justified.

•Most balanced characters in the game(s)
•Decent enough combos and mixups to survive
•Pretty balanced MU Sheet(nothing higher than a 60 besides Zamus...maybe)
•Electroshock
•Arrows
•Personality as a little bonus that doesn't really relate, but is true anyway.

No, they're not justified because of their poor tournament representation as a whole (yes, even with Earth), and the prospect of them having almost zero overwhelming features (sans Dark Pit with Electroshock, and even then it's a little niche outside of grounded tech chases) that can distinguish them from being threatening characters in a metagame where having an amazing neutral game or an amazing punish game is what allows characters to succeed.

Earth is an amazing player, but didn't he go all Corrin in a tournament recently? That by itself should ring alarm bells about the current viability about the Pits. You stating that they're the, "most balanced characters in the game" doesn't particularly help your case because most of the time, the balanced characters aren't the ones that prosper.

 

[Routa]

-1 (Mii Swordfighter is just not good compared to the other sword fighters in this game, and Swordfighters don't seem to be that prevalent anyways; I think that the Swordfighter is below Little Mac, honestly.)

So far Swordfighter has more results than Roy and Lucina so...

Anyways we are now talking about Any Size XXXX Swordfighter (no results so far) and not Guest 1111/XXXX (ok results)

0:0 sized Swordfighter has the frame data and the power of a Link and the mobility of a Wario. His edgeguarding game is one of the best due to his amazing aerial mobility. He has a kill confirm (Down Throw -> Uair) which only works at 0:0 due to increased mobility. This confirm works at about 90%. He has one of the most powerful OoS moves (Hero's Spin) which has insane kb. He can Chakram -> F-smash/PT near the ledge to seal the stock. He is able to rack up damage easily and quickly. His main flaw is lack of reliable kill moves (along with frame 7 jumspsquat). Even tho he has kill confirm it is still very situation based and most of his kill moves are hard to land in general. He has the tools and the theory to be higher. Too bad he lacks the results mainly due to rulesets. Theorically he has better MU spread than Roy, Link, Math and Lucina.

 

[Deleted member]

Charizard's been significantly buffed over the last few balance patches, and so I severly doubt he's in Tier 7 anymore; hell, even low Tier 6 is (at least IMO) too low, but we rank on many aspects, and unless we get a big push to the Charizard meta by guys like M2K, I think Charizard is at around mid-low 6, at least for now.

I agree that Roy and Mac do need to go down a bit; they don't do much in tournaments and they just don't have the results.

Yoshi's already slid down the power ranks enough, though, so I can't say downvoting him any more is helpful.

Ganondorf is certainly not in Tier 8, no matter how you slice it, after Patch 1.1.5. The buffs make him a better character than anybody in 8, so putting him in Tier 8, even if at the top of 8, is an injustice to Ganon's huge buffs.

+1 (1.1.5 has supremely aided Charizard's last few glaring flaws, and so he definitely should go up in the rankings a fair bit more.)

+1 (Like with Charizard, 1.1.5 has really helped Mewtwo as a character, so I think he might be above at least Peach in the tier list.)

+1 (Buffs have really aided Samus here, and I think she might be above Marth in terms of tier listing, especially since we've been seeing a rise in Samus tournament play lately.)

-1 (The loss of his infamous combo has really hurt Meta Knight pretty badly. I think he's below Pikachu at this point, but consensus will need to build for him to move).

-1 (Mii Swordfighter is just not good compared to the other sword fighters in this game, and Swordfighters don't seem to be that prevalent anyways; I think that the Swordfighter is below Little Mac, honestly.)

Here's one thing people need to realize:

Buffs are nice, but they don't matter if players are still remaining to do nothing with the characters.

and have solid cases for rising up on this list (and the 4BR tier list in its next iteration, hopefully!) due to their improved representation and tournament results after 1.1.3 and 1.1.5 respectively. Meanwhile, gets buffs almost every patch... while the ones in 1.1.5 were important, he still has nobody repping him or any consistent results to speak of. It makes it hard to determine what this character is capable of doing when in the tournament scene there is not one who uses him at high level. I do believe Zard has a chance in being the upper part of low tier, but there's nothing to prove it. Characters like also suffer from this.

Also, MK is still a very viable character even with the loss of his stairway to heaven combo. Tyrant just took a regional recently. Not sure if you know, but Miis are guest size, any set on this list.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

(the quote below is in reference to Pit/Dark Pit)

Mario isn't the most balanced anymore(for this game atleast). I don't remember uair to UpB or spamming utilts over and over being balanced enough.

No, they're not justified because of their poor tournament representation as a whole (yes, even with Earth), and the prospect of them having almost zero overwhelming features (sans Dark Pit with Electroshock, and even then it's a little niche outside of grounded tech chases) that can distinguish them from being threatening characters in a metagame where having an amazing neutral game or an amazing punish game is what allows characters to succeed.

Earth is an amazing player, but didn't he go all Corrin in a tournament recently? That by itself should ring alarm bells about the current viability about the Pits. You stating that they're the, "most balanced characters in the game" doesn't particularly help your case because most of the time, the balanced characters aren't the ones that prosper.

You do know Earth can play both right? After all, he played Fox alongside his Pit(you know...like what Nairo and Zero do with Diddy/Shiek and ZSS/other characters).

Also, Yoshi and Peach have pretty "poor" tournament results aswell, yet they're also high tier characters.

*Being the most balanced/a beginners character usually doesn't help a lot of characters...but it's helping the Pits*

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Also, MK is still a very viable character even with the loss of his stairway to heaven combo. Tyrant just took a regional recently.

I'm not saying MK isn't viable anymore; considering how well people are still doing with him, I'd be an utter quack to say he's not viable anymore.

I'm just saying that I can't see MK being solidly, affirmatively above Pikachu after his stairway combo got killed off. He's still in 3, just at the very bottom of 3 and not being second to it.

Also, Yoshi and Peach have pretty "poor" tournament results aswell, yet they're also high tier characters.

I was tempted to drop Peach and Yoshi down a bit, too; and logically, if Mewtwo goes up to Tier 4, Peach will be bumped down to his place in Tier 5.

Yoshi, I feel, is just far too overrated. Yes, he's good, but he's not seen much tournament results in the West; most of his hype comes from Japanese Smash tournaments, not Western ones. He has scarce results and definitely isn't even as common as he was post-3DS launch nowadays in Western tournaments.

EDIT:

So far Swordfighter has more results than Roy and Lucina so...

Anyways we are now talking about Any Size XXXX Swordfighter (no results so far) and not Guest 1111/XXXX (ok results)

0:0 sized Swordfighter has the frame data and the power of a Link and the mobility of a Wario. His edgeguarding game is one of the best due to his amazing aerial mobility. He has a kill confirm (Down Throw -> Uair) which only works at 0:0 due to increased mobility. This confirm works at about 90%. He has one of the most powerful OoS moves (Hero's Spin) which has insane kb. He can Chakram -> F-smash/PT near the ledge to seal the stock. He is able to rack up damage easily and quickly. His main flaw is lack of reliable kill moves (along with frame 7 jumspsquat). Even tho he has kill confirm it is still very situation based and most of his kill moves are hard to land in general. He has the tools and the theory to be higher. Too bad he lacks the results mainly due to rulesets. Theorically he has better MU spread than Roy, Link, Math and Lucina.

If we're going 0:0 size, then I suppose I should swap the Mii Swordfighter vote for a different vote; because I'll admit I see some potential in 0:0 Swordfighter.

Edited Votes:
+1 (1.1.5 has supremely aided Charizard's last few glaring flaws, and so he definitely should go up in the rankings a fair bit more.)

+1 (Like with Charizard, 1.1.5 has really helped Mewtwo as a character, so I think he might be above at least Peach in the tier list.)

+1 (Buffs have really aided Samus here, and I think she might be above Marth in terms of tier listing, especially since we've been seeing a rise in Samus tournament play lately.)

-1 (The loss of his infamous combo has really hurt Meta Knight pretty badly. I think he's just below Pikachu at this point, but consensus will need to build for him to move).

-1 (Without Helicopter Kick, Mii Brawler is a far worse character, and since we're abiding by customs-off rules, then he should probably slide down the rankings a tad.)

 

[Munomario777]

-1 (Without Helicopter Kick, Mii Brawler is a far worse character, and since we're abiding by customs-off rules, then he should probably slide down the rankings a tad.)

Miis have full movesets and all sizes (see the OP).

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Miis have full movesets and all sizes (see the OP).

....*sigh*

Just can't win, can I?

In that case, substitute Mii Brawler with .

 

[Bowserboy3]

Mario isn't the most balanced anymore(for this game atleast). I don't remember uair to UpB or spamming utilts over and over being balanced enough.

Lol, so having a viable and useful combo game isn't balanced any more? Geez...

Mario is the epitome of balanced; he has nothing bad, and has nothing OP. He has combos, but not as easily abusable or extensive as Sheik or Bayonetta, but actually has them and are usable and viable, unlike Puff and Duck Hunt, thus, in between = balanced. His movement is not the best, but not the worst, somewhere in the middle = balanced. His recovery is not fantastic but it's not bad either = balanced.

A tier list position doesn't mean not balanced. It just so happens that Mario has not many flaws, and can handle almost any character. Yes, Pit and Dark Pit are balanced, but how you can even consider them more balanced than Mario is beyond me. Mario is also higher on the tier list due to results, which is part of the reason Pit is lower. Both of them are balanced, but Mario is THE balanced character. There's a reason why Mario is one of the most commonly used characters in low level tournaments, not Pit.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Lol, so having a viable and useful combo game isn't balanced any more? Geez...

...yes...(sarcasm)

Mario is the epitome of balanced; he has nothing bad, and has nothing OP. He has combos, but not as easily abusable or extensive as Sheik or Bayonetta, but actually has them and are usable and viable, unlike Puff and Duck Hunt, thus, in between = balanced. His movement is not the best, but not the worst, somewhere in the middle = balanced. His recovery is not fantastic but it's not bad either = balanced.

A tier list position doesn't mean not balanced. It just so happens that Mario has not many flaws, and can handle almost any character. Yes, Pit and Dark Pit are balanced, but how you can even consider them more balanced than Mario is beyond me. Mario is also higher on the tier list due to results, which is part of the reason Pit is lower. Both of them are balanced, but Mario is THE balanced character. There's a reason why Mario is one of the most commonly used characters in low level tournaments, not Pit.

1. I said nothing about OP
2. I didn't say he wasn't the most balanced because of his tier placement(where did that come from)
3. He's more popular yes...but this is Mario, the granddaddy of gaming(ignoring Pac-Man), so of course he'd be played alot more(bu both casual and hardcore players...though I can't say the same for Brawl or Melee since I've never been interested in watching Brawl tourneys, and Melee, last time I checked, has mostly Fox, Peach, Marth, Jiggs, IC, Falco, and Falcon...noone at my school tell me anything about Melee besides the fact that it's apparently...boring now)

I'm not saying MK isn't viable anymore; considering how well people are still doing with him, I'd be an utter quack to say he's not viable anymore.

I'm just saying that I can't see MK being solidly, affirmatively above Pikachu after his stairway combo got killed off. He's still in 3, just at the very bottom of 3 and not being second to it.

I was tempted to drop Peach and Yoshi down a bit, too; and logically, if Mewtwo goes up to Tier 4, Peach will be bumped down to his place in Tier 5.

Yoshi, I feel, is just far too overrated. Yes, he's good, but he's not seen much tournament results in the West; most of his hype comes from Japanese Smash tournaments, not Western ones. He has scarce results and definitely isn't even as common as he was post-3DS launch nowadays in Western tournaments.

EDIT:



If we're going 0:0 size, then I suppose I should swap the Mii Swordfighter vote for a different vote; because I'll admit I see some potential in 0:0 Swordfighter.

Edited Votes:
+1 (1.1.5 has supremely aided Charizard's last few glaring flaws, and so he definitely should go up in the rankings a fair bit more.)

+1 (Like with Charizard, 1.1.5 has really helped Mewtwo as a character, so I think he might be above at least Peach in the tier list.)

+1 (Buffs have really aided Samus here, and I think she might be above Marth in terms of tier listing, especially since we've been seeing a rise in Samus tournament play lately.)

-1 (The loss of his infamous combo has really hurt Meta Knight pretty badly. I think he's just below Pikachu at this point, but consensus will need to build for him to move).

-1 (Without Helicopter Kick, Mii Brawler is a far worse character, and since we're abiding by customs-off rules, then he should probably slide down the rankings a tad.)

Mewtwo will definitely move up

EDIT: There's only three paths this argument can go

1. Pointless City
2. Death
3. **** It and let's get ready for Wrestlemania/NXT