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If he can keepout Pikachu then I was wrong.
He would have to be good at both of these, and what he lacks is a jab that beats grabs and any good "midrange" (for lack of a better word) OOS options. When I say OOS I don't just mean usmash. For instance, Cloud's nair is unsafe on Diddy because of OOS fair (or bair), not usmash. Also because of OOS banana to fsmash--and the reason I argue Diddy's OOS game is so good is because not only does he have great aerials OOS, but because banana is an OOS kill confirm. But usmash and utilt are good too. On Gunner though, he doesn't have an OOS aerial fast enough to punish a spaced aerial, which is actually worse than it sounds. My mentioning dtilt wasn't necessary, but the reason was that Samus' dtilt is f5, has really good range, and does 12 damage, so it's good OOS. Anyway not relevant. (also lol Gunner's dtilt does 14%, that's crazy)
Esam's tier list part two, or high tier, from pre patch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dhA_u4kAVU. Around 12:00.
Here though, you say Diddy's command grab and SHFF fair(!) are not high quality. The Ganon comparison is totally wild because 1) Diddy's side b is vastly, inexplicably better than Ganon's, there is no comparison 2) Diddy isn't relying on a command grab to compensate for an otherwise poor neutral, certainly not Ganon level. Diddy's neutral without the command grab is good. Players are forced to deal with Diddy's side b, especially when it has the option of being smashed or not being smashed, and being a kick attack or being a command grab. MVD uses it a lot and it's evident that even at high levels Diddy's side b is very relevant. Having more high quality options like Diddy's side b definitely matters (imagine if Ganon had Diddy's side b...).
I took this out of context in my last post, I am sorry.
Gunner's jab actually gets him/her out of grabs. I am saying that Gunner is substandard in CQC and OOS, but Gunner isn't awful at either one of these. One of the main arguments that I am trying to make is that superior, dominating, options in the neutral tend to be better than having well rounded options in the neutral. For example, one of the most important parts of the neutral is mobility, but Villager still has a very good neutral without it since he has strong tools. While having more options in the neutral is important, having dominant options in the neutral can cover other weaknesses, and make some of the tools of other characters less useful. While Diddy Kong has more options than Gunner in the neutral, Gunner's options (mainly fair, but in some cases, getting an opponent to approach by charging up charge blast is also better than approaching with Diddy) are more dominant, and the strengths are more than enough to cover Gunner's weaknesses.
:Correct. I don't think she's in her own tier, she shares S tier with Rosalina imo. (And btw, that is my ONLY disagreement with top five, the characters are in order, and tiers are correct apart from Rosalina not being in the same tier as Bayonetta):Bowser I think should go down a tiny bit, but his spot is generally fine, it just needs a few characters that are too low above him, such as Mega Man. I think people overrate him because of forgetting his flaws, such as his bad landing options, for exampleHow come he's at bottom 7? He has more then the people in his tier, and some people above him *cough* Link *cough*. For one, his aierals are pretty good. His aierals all have great range, for one, with the exception of up air. They also have great knockback and damage to, once again with the exception of up air. This all gives him a nice aieral game. His ground game is also pretty good, his up tilt is good at comboing into itself, down tilt is good as a replacement jab, smashes are pretty good in their own things, for example knockback. Speaking of which, Bowser Jr has great ko power. His up spsecial, aierals, and all smashes are pretty good at this. He also has pretty good recovery. However, he DOES suffer from certain flaws, such as some useless flaws and terrible throws, which prevent him from going TOO much higher.: Captain Falcon, I think might be a little too high, the pits are easily better than him in theory, as is Yoshi imo. Captain Falcon's matchup spread is also way too poor to put him this high.:Charizard, I think is a little too low. I think he should be mid-tier-low-mid tier, deoending on prespective. The buffs on muitiple versions have he:Cloud is a little too high, Diddy should be above him, but otherwise, correct:I honestly think Corrin is the worst high tier, at 29th. Most of Corrin's moves are pretty bad or lackluster, and while some moves, such as side special, are really good, most of them don't get worse than annoying. He also has no results apart from the occasional secondary Corrin from an Ike main.: King Dedede is a just barely too low right now, I think he is better than Ganondorf and Zelda, but that Jigglypuff should be above him. This would put him one spot higher, which is accurate with full moveset miis.:Read Pit: Donkey Kong's is pretty much correct, apart from that Mii Brawler should be above him. Unfortently, though, most think he is top 20, which i don't think is the case.:A little low, imo he should be above Cloud and possibly even Rosalina and Bayo.:Dr. Mario I think must have just gotten too many up votes last time. He defitenly is not better than Mega Man and Wii Fit Trainer. Dr. Mario is extremely slow, and has no results apart from Nairo (Who doesn't even main him) beating Esam at MLG. And Esam ended up beating his Dr. Mario in two games at Genesis 3. Dr. Mario has a ton of problems getting in because of his slow speed (Although he isn't low tier since he's extremely strong and his frame data is good).
eople really overexaggerate Duck Hunt's flaws, his killing ability is bad, but people act like he can't kill until at least 200, but only bad players will keep their opponent always living this long. He at least has up air, can tricks and edgeguarding, back air, etc. His smashes don't properly connect, but many inputted smashes are going to properly connect and cause the opponent to die. His smashes are still fairly good, or AT LEAST average. His recovery is bad, but so is Cloud's and he's the 3rd best. Duck Hunt's recovery isn't as easily edgeguarded as people act like, and its distance isn't as bad. People act like he's recovering in SLHG (lol). He still has some great strengths too, but people act like he has no strengths. He also has better results than a ton of the people ahead of him, due to Brood, Yusan, and Dandypenguin (5th at glitch, 13th at super smash con, 9th at tipped off):Falco, I think, is fine where he is, Charizard should be right above him and Bowser Jr. should be above him instead of Dr. Mario and Shulk, but the spot is close enough, one spot off is fine.:Fox, I think is a little low. He should still be below Sonic, but he should be above Ryu and Mario. Fox is better in theory and in results, than Ryu and Mario are.:Ganondorf is a little too high, he's kinda terrible, and should be second to last behind Zelda (Who should be in last). He has a terrible matchup spread, bad results, terrible recovery, Terrible throws, terrible frame data, bad approaching, terrible mobility, etc.:Greninja's spot I think is correct. Yes, I think he is better than Corrin: Ike, I think, is too low, he is defitenly better than Corrin, Rob, and Peach, because of his great theory and good matchup spread. He is, however, falling slightly, but he should still be some many other characters: I think Jigglypuff, honestly, isn't last, and shoudn't be in last on this list. I don't even think she should be in the last three! I think she should be at 4th from last. I think that, due to her actually good matchup spread for someone that low, great aierals, good up tilt, pound, dash attack, and jab, great air mobility, great edgeguarding, and many other reasons, that she isn't this low, and that she will be high tier in the game's future.:Kirby is my own MAIN and i think he's too high. Not crazy high, only a few spots (I have him at 35th), but his neutral and approaching are bad enough to put him behind Mega Man, Robin, Olimar, and Wii Fit Trainer, and his Sonic and Toon Link matchups are really bad. Despite this, however, he has enough strengths to stay at least somewhat viable (Mikekirby was able to get 5th at a ktar, and 13th at glitch, using JUST Kirby.).: Little Mac's spot is almost correct, maybe like one or two spots lower and he'd be correct.:Link's spot is litertatly so wrong, that it is destroying this tier list. He has terrible recovery, bad moveset, terrible frame data, terrible mobility, many terrible moves, such as dash attack, down tilt, and down smash, bad matchup spread, etc. It makes NO sense at all for Link to be here.: As long as Rob and Peach fall down enough, Lucario is fine where he is.:I think Lucas is too high for sure, as he has no results and current theory is a few spots lower, which would put him lower. I think Mega Man, Robin, WFT, Game & Watch, Olimar, and Kirby should be above him, possibly Marth too.:Read Marth: Luigi I think is pretty low, I think he and Ike should be in the tier above instead of Corrin, Rob, and Peach, due to his good matchup spread, good combos, great throws, great aierals, and good jab and good projectile. He does however, suffer from problems such as terrible recovery, so he can't go too much higher.: Mario I think is too highy for someone as all-around as him. Everything he has is all-around, which makes him worse than Sonic, Fox, and Villager, espicially his matchup spread., He however, is good average; average top tier good, which means he doesn't need to drastictially fall.:Marth, Honestly, I think is way too high. I don't see how he can be better than Mega Man, Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer, Robin, etc. Marth still has some pretty bad flaws.:Almost no one, if anyone at all, thinks Mega Man is this low, people are just ignoring him. Mega Man's pellets are great, his up tilt is great, his down tilt is good, his smashes are good, His aierals are good, his killing power is great with up tilt, smashes and aierals, his metal blade is good, his projectiles are great, he is hard to approach since he can wall you easily due to his projectiles, mainly pellets and metal blade, has good results because of Scatt, and has randomly good or ok matchups aganist top tiers. I don't see how he's in the 40s.: Meta Knight's spot is correct, as long as Ness falls below him.:I think Mewtwo is correct where he is, though he both feels like he's too high and too low due to other character's placements:I don't know much about all moves Miis, but I think he could still be at least two spots higher.:I don't know much about full moveset Miis, but he seems to be around the correct spot.:I don't know much about all moves miis, but I think Swordighter should be a little higher. At least above Link (lol) and Falco: Mr. Game & Watch I think is much too low. I think he should be above Marcina, Samus, Lucas, Shulk, Bowser, and Dr. Mario, due to his randomly good matchup spread, espicially aganist characters such as Mario and Pikachu, his great aierals, and his many good ground attacks, good comboing ability, his good kill power (Though killing is a problem, so this doesn't mean much, and great results from Regi.: Ness, I think might be a little too low, Meta Knight and Pikachu should be above him, but otherwise, correct./:Olimar, I think is overrated, but he still seems too low right now. HOW is he below Samus, Marcina, Lucas, and Kirby? Huh? I think he should be fairly higher, at 31st.: I think Pac-Man is just slightly too low, since Corrin, Rob, and Peach are too high. Get them lower and Pac-Man would be at a good spot. He has a good matchup spread, great projectile, pretty good aierals, good recovery, good projectile tricks, is hard to approach, and has good theory in general.alutena, I think is fine where she is. I think Roy should be below her instead of Duck Hunt, but yea, this spot is accurate imo.each has some pretty good strengths, such as good aierals, but in general, I think she is way too high. She has an extremely small playerbase and is one of the hardest characters to use, so she has trouble getting results (Although she does have some, such as 7th at Paragon and 17th at Genesis 3). She also has a pretty bad recoverry, bad mobility, a ton of bad ground attack, teouble killing outside of reads (This isn't that bad though), and is easily hit. She has some bad flaws, and I think she should be 28th on here. Ike, Mewtwo, Luigi, Lucario, and Pac-Man should defitenly all be above her.:I think Pikachu's spot is correct. Nothing else really to say here.:The pits are a little too low I think, I think they are better than Corrin, Toon Link, and Captain Falcon for sure. I think they're the best high tiers (Greninja I think is top-high, which is a tier I have in between top and high. Pikachu and Ness are also in it.):Rob, I think, is way too high. I think Rob is extremely overrated tbh. He has a bad matchup spread for somebody in high tier, lack of results in general, pretty bad ground attacks apart from projectiles, Easy to gimp, etc. Rob defitenly doesn't belong up here, like Peach, and should be below Ike, Luigi, Mewtwo, Lucario, and Pac-Man./:Robin is still a little bit too low, but just get Samus, Marcina, Lucas, and Kirby where they belong and he's fine.:Correct. However, I think she should be in the same tier as Bayonetta. I think they have similar viability, and Bayonetta isn't good enough to have her own tier:When all miis get all customs, Then the last tier (I guess second last because of Mii Brawler tier) becomes five characters. I think the best out of those five (Which is 5th from last) is Roy. I don't see how exactatly he belongs in tier 6, when results, theory, and matchups are all worse than that.: Ryu I think is too high, since he has low results and has a below average matchup spread for a top tier, so Sonic, and Fox should be above him.:She got too many up votes, and then people never realized how high she is lol. Her and Marcina's position is screwing up the placement of characters such as Mega Man, Robin, and Wii Fit Trainer a lot. Samus is in no way better then Olimar, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer, Robin, etc. She still has some flaws, and her strengths aren't as crazy good as being suggested here. imo, Samus should be at 40th, as the buffs DEFITENLY have helped her a ton, but i don't see how it helped her THIS much.:Sheik I think should be a little higher, but not too much higher. She has pretty bad killing problems now, like Pikachu (But slightly better) and her all-around top tier matchup spread is pretty poor for a top tier, same viability as Pikachus basicially, but with no polarizing matchups, but instead multiple scattered negative matchups and not too many posisitive or even matchups in return. She should at least be above Pikachu, Mario, and Meta Knight though.:Shulk, like Dr. Mario, got a little too many votes, and ended up skyrocketing up. Most people don't think he's that high, but, like me, they don't find it bad enough to waste a vote on it. But yea, Shulk is too high, his frame data and lack of results outside of low tier tourneys and random upsets by a Shulk Secondary proves that he isn't THIS high (yet): Sonic, like Fox, should be above Mario and Ryu. Sonic is better in theory for both of them, has a better matchup spread than Mario, and has more results than Ryu.retty much correct. I think the Pits should be above him, and Corrin below him, but otherwise, correct.:Correct. I think he is 10th, although I think Sheik should be above him, while Mario should be below him.:Wario I think, while still having been clearly overrated before, is too low now, he's still high tier, just one of the worst high tiers, at 28th imo. He still has one of the best command grabs, good air mobility, good aierals and tilts, etc. He has some big flaws though. Depite this, I think he should still be above Kirby, Marcina, Samus, Corrin, and Lucas.: I think Wii Fit Trainer is a little too low right now, I think she is better than Marcina, Samus, Shulk, and Dr. Mario at the very least, as her theory is better than theirs and her results are super great, probably high tier level results. Not sure why people place her at the 40s so much.: Yoshi I think is about correct where he is, I think he is better than Corrin and Captain Falcon, but that's it.:imo, these buffs didn't help her that much, and didn't buff her in the way she needs it. I think that, due to miis getting all moves, that she should be last in this list.:Correct.
Simply stating that three characters positions are screwing up a bunch of other characters positions is ridiculous. Perhaps its to do with the other characters becoming rather stagnant in recent weeks, or that people just feel no need to vote for them?
1. He's not basic. I hate how everyone says this. Yes, he looks basic when you see some crap FG scrub playing him but in a competitive setting he is a super strategic and diverse fighter.
All-Around was what I meant, I was rushing to finish this in time before the next version
1.Corrin has very few bad moves. His only bad moves are like Up smash, dair, and maybe side tilt, and even those have some uses and are used in his gameplay. Calling a move annoying does not make it bad. Corrin gained combo game because of the "nerfs" recent patch, but he still has some awesome kill moves such as Side B, up b, up air high up in the stage after combos, etc.
is because many people think she is a broken character and all that stuff which I will not go into. I can go more in depth, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. Also, he has the best wife ever aka Oboro.
,and gonna rise on this list for sure after Pound's over.
Same with
, and probably people will realize is top 6/tier2
By that logic also
, and should rise. They all placed in top 10 at Avalon (one of the biggest tournaments in Europe.
Thing is, who attended Avalon. Atendents matter!!!By that logic also
...
Doesn't seem that stacked though. S1-14 and Sodrek are top players (Assuming people like K9 and whatever else count as top players? Or is it just the top 10 players), and Longnow and Eddy are good too, but no one else is really that good (Except for maybe Yikarur? I forget if he did good at beast, which I think he did but I'm sure about).
And, you know, it's been a week since the previous update.
...seems Earth ain't gonna stop using the Pits after all(so for those who said otherwise...all of y'all can suck it...jk...I should probably stop watching wrestling)
Wintermelon43
I agree with most of your opinions(AKA the ones I read and bothered caring for)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He lives in Australia. He's hours ahead most of us.Browny needs to update ASAP. This is prime time for voting.
Why upvote Marth but downvote Lucina? (srsly sorry if I'm being nitpicky, but I wanted to hear)
No, I'm not a genwunner. Its my opinion.
