Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Xandercosm]

There's a reason why Mario is one of the most commonly used characters in low level tournaments

Thanks a lot... :\

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Thanks a lot... :\

I'm sure he didn't mean it negatively...maybe

 

[H4RM0NY]

+1 Pikachu
-1 Meta Knight
-1 Diddy Kong

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

EDIT: I've changed my upvote to a upvote for reasons I'll quote from my now-modified voting post:

+1 It's weird, but hear me out. He was already a great character before buffs (see iStudying), and now his buffs fixed a lot of the issues he still had. Additionally, his worst matchup has been nerfed, so I find even more reason to put him up in Tier 3 where he has shown to be capable of dominating.

 

[Munomario777]

Spoiler: Reference

1:
2:
3:
4:()
5:
6:
7:
8:

-1 (Disregard if it would mean she goes down more than a tier, just looking to combine tiers 1 and 2.)
+1 (See previous posts.)
+1
+1
-1 (Not seeing it tbh, anyone know why she's seen as this good?)

Otherwise looks like a pretty decent list to me atm. (Barring Sheik, but that's being done to death already.)

 

[Jeronado]

+
+
+
-
+

 

[Bowserboy3]

Thanks a lot... :\

I'm sure he didn't mean it negatively...maybe

I truly didn't mean it negatively. Mario is used a lot from my experience at tournaments because of his low learning curve and simple yet effective results, nothing more nothing less. It's high level Mario's that show how he is top tier. Mario's high tier for a a whole lot more reasons than being balanced and easy to use, but they certainly do help boost his viability quite a bit.

 

[Deleted member]

WHY IS MY MAIN ROY, I NOW HAVE NO REASON TO LIVE

 

[ShadowGuy1]

WHY IS MY MAIN ROY, I NOW HAVE NO REASON TO LIVE

LOL what are my mains, my avatar better stay the same.


Edit:oh it's Kagero, the best ninja in the game and waifubof lobster lord Ryoma

 

[Dinoman96]

+100
+250
+200
+140
+500
+666
+1728
+1980

ahuh

 

[Jeronado]

Sigh, was hoping I'd get a Caeda avatar or Cain or even Minerva...

Anyway, I think it's clear to me that all the Fire Emblem characters are S tier. We need to get on bumping them up.

 

[apparently fuz]

In this current meta, I don't think that there are any characters that are well deserving of an S tier placement. Bayonetta hasn't proven herself to the extent where she over-centralises through dominance in tournaments or ample popularity in top level placements to warrant the mantle of the sole S tier character. On the contrary, I'm actually excited to see how this current meta would progress, after the initial phase of players exclaiming that we will just see, "Cloud, Bayonetta and Rosalina" post 1.1.5 patch.

(oh, I'm Roy now. How ironic.)

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well, at least they got my Melee main right. NVM It seems it changes with every post lol. Shame they didn't just put Marth across them all, that wouldn't be too far from the truth...

However, what they did get right was my avatar... HOW F***ING CUTE IS THAT?! AND IT'S MARTH!

 

[apparently fuz]

Well, at least they got my Melee main right. NVM It seems it changes with every post lol. Shame they didn't just put Marth across them all, that wouldn't be too far from the truth...

However, what they did get right was my avatar... HOW F***ING CUTE IS THAT?! AND IT'S MARTH!

I've seen too many people with this Roy avatar. Way too many.

 

[Xandercosm]

Yeah, why the heck are they so low? They should all be moved to above Bayonetta.

 

[Deleted member]

If you ask me, is the best character in the game.

Not kidding by the way. If you want reasons, I'll tell you.

 

[apparently fuz]

If you ask me, is the best character in the game.

Not kidding by the way. If you want reasons, I'll tell you.

I can see why, he's definitely at least top 5. I'm interested in your reasoning however.

 

[Tizio Random]

Diddy is definitely top 5 and it's not too to think he could be #1. If he demonstrates that he could be worth that place in these next months I will be happy to see him taking top spot. Also, ZeRo will probably use him even more.

Also, tfw you don't know the girlin your avatar and go check who she is.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

-5867
+6969
+ 5290
+ 6666
777 -
+1

 

[AlphaSSB]

In honor of today, I would like to suggest the removal of any non-Fire Emblem characters from the tier list. This is a Fire Emblem fighting game now, and the rest of the cast are irrelevant.

 

[Deleted member]

I can see why, he's definitely at least top 5. I'm interested in your reasoning however.

He has some of the best tournament results of any character, has a top 3 neutral (I'd even say it's on par with Sheik's), good frame data, disjoints and reliable KO confirms. His forward air alone outdoes most characters' toolkits.

 

[Routa]

In honor of today, I would like to suggest the removal of any non-Fire Emblem characters from the tier list. This is a Fire Emblem fighting game now, and the rest of the cast are irrelevant.

Oh and keep Swordfighter. He is da Black Knight.

Isn't he majestic?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

WHO THE HELL IS THIS

 

[Xandercosm]

If you ask me, is the best character in the game.

Not kidding by the way. If you want reasons, I'll tell you.

I think Diddy is definitely top 5 but #1 would be a stretch. He's definitely got super solid results and a great toolkit, though. But Bayonetta is just too insane. If it weren't for her, I'd say Diddy could probably be the best (although Rosa is pretty good too).

 

[Routa]

I think Diddy is definitely top 5 but #1 would be a stretch. He's definitely got super solid results and a great toolkit, though. But Bayonetta is just too insane. If it weren't for her, I'd say Diddy could probably be the best (although Rosa is pretty good too).

The thing is that... Bayo is very bad at fighting against playing lame tactic.

Diddy has ok recovery (predictable tho) which is pretty much his only "flaw". Bayo in the other hand has okish neutral. And the thing is that this game is very neutral based so if you ask me Diddy is da number 1.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I truly didn't mean it negatively. Mario is used a lot from my experience at tournaments because of his low learning curve and simple yet effective results, nothing more nothing less. It's high level Mario's that show how he is top tier. Mario's high tier for a a whole lot more reasons than being balanced and easy to use, but they certainly do help boost his viability quite a bit.

K cause I was gonna say...wouldn't being used in low tier tournaments and be considered the best only through those be worse than having little results in major tournaments like EVO, Genesis, and all those Japanese tournaments on SGI-Gaming?

 

[wedl!!]

yfw diddy always had the best neutral

and now it's better by comparison because of needle/fair nerfs

 

[Vyrnx]

I'm not totally convinced that Diddy has any losing MUs at all. Maybe Pikachu, maybe Luigi, but Diddy is just so solid right now. The best character IMO always has a tremendous lack of weaknesses--pre patch Sheik certainly met that prerequisite, and so does Diddy now, except for his subpar recovery. And thank goodness he at least has one weakness.

There's not much debate anymore that Diddy has the best neutral (fair by itself is better than some characters' entire movesets, dtilt is great, and banana), but he has very doable kill confirms, and kill moves like usmash and utilt that are f5 and 6 resp are made easier to land with glidetoss and other momentum options.

He can definitely get comboed though, he doesn't have any stupid f3 all direction aerials since the uair nerfs, however with monkey flip and popgun momentum changes, he doesn't really ever get pinned in disadvantage. The only characters who reset as easily would be like, ZSS, Pika, Sheik, and Bayo.

He's in a really good spot if he can reset to neutral so easily, because neutral is a great place to be as Diddy. Damage racking combos are just an extra novelty that wouldn't even be necessary for Diddy since he wins neutral so much, but they're there and make losing neutral vs Diddy so much worse. With combos, stage control abilities, and kill options, the only thing his advantage state actually lacks is off stage ability, but then he has ledge traps and other kill methods so that he doesn't have to rely on gimps for kills.

He has the mobility and moveset combination (and range) where he doesn't really lose to any sort of character archetype. The two issues that might keep him from being the consensus best character would be--1) Whatever happens with Bayo (character development and anti character development) and 2) Disproportionately small representation despite his strength in the metagame.

But whenever I see Diddy I usually think, "That's the best character," and I think it'd be pretty tough to make a claim that passes him up. He's so good.

 

[Deleted member]

Diddy's mediocre air speed is another flaw of his, but even then it's not detrimental to his overall gameplan. Though I will say, still had the best neutral before 1.1.5, even if Diddy's has always been amazing. Needle camping was way too good.

I agree with everything you said, Vyrnx . He's an excellent character, and I definitely think he's the best in the game.



If were to be asked, this is what the top 5 would look like in my opinion. ZSS and Rosa can be interchanged.

 

[DMWN]

Ugh, you guys get lucky with characters like Matthew and Ephraim and I'm over here stuck with this garbage excuse of a Fire Emblem character

 

[Djmarcus44]

yfw diddy always had the best neutral

and now it's better by comparison because of needle/fair nerfs

I'm not totally convinced that Diddy has any losing MUs at all. Maybe Pikachu, maybe Luigi, but Diddy is just so solid right now. The best character IMO always has a tremendous lack of weaknesses--pre patch Sheik certainly met that prerequisite, and so does Diddy now, except for his subpar recovery. And thank goodness he at least has one weakness.

There's not much debate anymore that Diddy has the best neutral (fair by itself is better than some characters' entire movesets, dtilt is great, and banana), but he has very doable kill confirms, and kill moves like usmash and utilt that are f5 and 6 resp are made easier to land with glidetoss and other momentum options.

He can definitely get comboed though, he doesn't have any stupid f3 all direction aerials since the uair nerfs, however with monkey flip and popgun momentum changes, he doesn't really ever get pinned in disadvantage. The only characters who reset as easily would be like, ZSS, Pika, Sheik, and Bayo.

He's in a really good spot if he can reset to neutral so easily, because neutral is a great place to be as Diddy. Damage racking combos are just an extra novelty that wouldn't even be necessary for Diddy since he wins neutral so much, but they're there and make losing neutral vs Diddy so much worse. With combos, stage control abilities, and kill options, the only thing his advantage state actually lacks is off stage ability, but then he has ledge traps and other kill methods so that he doesn't have to rely on gimps for kills.

He has the mobility and moveset combination (and range) where he doesn't really lose to any sort of character archetype. The two issues that might keep him from being the consensus best character would be--1) Whatever happens with Bayo (character development and anti character development) and 2) Disproportionately small representation despite his strength in the metagame.

But whenever I see Diddy I usually think, "That's the best character," and I think it'd be pretty tough to make a claim that passes him up. He's so good.

I wouldn't say that Diddy Kong has the best neutral in the game. He loses neutral against Mii Gunner and Cloud since both characters have the tools to force Diddy Kong to approach and stop his approach. Mii Gunner can charge up charge blast in order to get Diddy to approach, and stop him with shorthop fair, pivot ftilt, pivot flame pillar, or pivot fsmash. In addition, Gunner can approach Diddy Kong pretty easily since Gunner's fair outranges Diddy Kong's, and it is safe on perfect shielding (the fact that it is an attack also makes it possible to catch a banana while using shorthop fair. Fair also allows Gunner to gundash for a good boost to Gunner's mobility and recovery.). Gunner also has a frame 3 reflector to stop a banana or peanut from hitting Gunner. In addition, Cloud gives Diddy Kong problems in the neutral since he can charge limit in order to force Diddy Kong to approach, and stop Diddy Kong with his nair. Cloud's attacks also have superior priority and range since he is a sword character. Since both Gunner and Cloud have better tools in the neutral, both characters probably have a better neutral. In addition, Diddy Kong also struggles in the neutral against Rosalina and Luma since she can use Gravitational Pull to deal with bananas, and she can outrange Diddy Kong with Luma. By the way, Diddy arguably loses to both Rosalina and Cloud since they also have good advantage states.

I think that Gunner has the best neutral in the game right now due to the tools that I mentioned above for beating Diddy Kong in the neutral. Also Gunner's fair is more oppressive in the neutral than Diddy Kong's fair because Gunner's fair is a transcendent priority projectile that also gives Gunner the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag while gundashing (Gunner's fair also combos into many of Gunner's moves, and it can setup for a kill with charge blast at high percents. These combos are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner's neutral game even has the ability to contend with the neutral of prepatch Sheik since Gunner can shield needles from long range and pressure sheik with shorthop fair (this fact along with Gunner's tournament obscurity are the reasons why Gunner is one of the few characters that have a winning record against prepatch Sheik. KV Flama is a Gunner player that won a game against Wonf's sheik in the grand finals of a Mexican regional. He even reset the bracket in that tournament).

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ugh, you guys get lucky with characters like Matthew and Ephraim and I'm over here stuck with this garbage excuse of a Fire Emblem character

I think it's safe to say my avatar is the ugliest.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

I was hoping I would get lucky, but I got not so memorable remake character!

All Fire Emblem characters are now S+ support tier!
Anyone else is z tier!

 

[Xandercosm]

While I like and agree with most of this Diddy talk, Bayonetta is pretty much on a completely different level than any other character in the game right now. I don't think Diddy Kong, Rosalina, Cloud, or anyone at the moment is even close to Bayonetta. She's good to the point of being utterly destructive to the meta and promoting incredibly degenerate play. It's as if Brawl Ice Climbers have invaded Smash 4. Diddy is great but he doesn't kill you off one hit.

 

[Wintermelon43]

While I like and agree with most of this Diddy talk, Bayonetta is pretty much on a completely different level than any other character in the game right now. I don't think Diddy Kong, Rosalina, Cloud, or anyone at the moment is even close to Bayonetta. She's good to the point of being utterly destructive to the meta and promoting incredibly degenerate play. It's as if Brawl Ice Climbers have invaded Smash 4. Diddy is great but he doesn't kill you off one hit.

You'd better run..... now..... before they kill you in their anger.

(Also, Bayonetta is defitenly not as bad as brawl ice climbers. She isn't even op. She might not even be the best in the game!)

 

[Vyrnx]

I disagree~

Diddy does not lose neutral to Cloud. I've never really understood the point about Limit forcing approaches--charging any chargeable is disadvantageous especially a character that is ridiculously good at approaching like Diddy. For instance, Samus charging CS has the same cancelable properties, and despite Samus having arguably stronger anti approach tools than Cloud, suffers in neutral against Diddy. For sure Cloud has a stronger neutral than Samus in any situation, but not for the reasons (charging and anti approach) that you mentioned. Banking on charging Limit vs Diddy will forfeit stage control, not to mention Diddy will not run in and let himself get hit by Cloud's nair--that is crazy--the Diddy will at least shield and then the Cloud would be an idiot to use nair because of Diddy's OOS. Cloud's offensive options out of Limit charge are mediocre because he is stationary during the charge--don't know exactly how to explain what I mean, and Diddy can cover many defensive options at once.

Neutral is definitely not as one dimensional as, "X move forces approach and Y move stops approach, character wins neutral." Diddy has options like stage control and command grabs that cover so many options at once that it makes it tough for any character--and in the end, even Cloud has to approach during the match.

It's definitely way more volatile when both characters are mobile and spacing, nobody can ignore Cloud's nair, but I would argue that run up and shield is effective against every swordy, Cloud included, and Diddy easily wins the up close pressure game and OOS game. Diddy doesn't win neutral for free vs Cloud, but he definitely does not lose neutral to Cloud. But I could see it being closer to even, prob Diddy's advantage slightly.

A few other things--Reflectors do not beat banana, I don't even know what to say here. This is a way too one dimensional outlook on neutral and assumes way too many situations, like for instance the Diddy Kong player being below FG average.

Actually I will just quote everything that is too one dimensional and doesn't sum up neutral well.

He loses neutral against Mii Gunner and Cloud since both characters have the tools to force Diddy Kong to approach and stop his approach.

Gunner can approach Diddy Kong pretty easily since Gunner's fair outranges Diddy Kong's

Gunner also has a frame 3 reflector to stop a banana or peanut from hitting Gunner.

Since both Gunner and Cloud have better tools in the neutral, both characters probably have a better neutral.

They don't have command grabs, SHFF autocanceling front and back aerials with stupid range, OOS options anywhere near Diddy's (nvm, Cloud is close), any CQC options near Diddy's, and not even Gunner's fair momentum changes can compete with glidetossing, popgun reversals, or smash side b. Diddy also has one of the best projectiles in the game that not even charge blast, I would argue, is as good as.

Diddy Kong also struggles in the neutral against Rosalina and Luma since she can use Gravitational Pull to deal with bananas, and she can outrange Diddy Kong with Luma.

Gunner's neutral game even has the ability to contend with the neutral of prepatch Sheik since Gunner can shield needles from long range

umm...
Also many top players believed Diddy's neutral was on par with prepatch Sheik or better, Esam thought it was better.
That's the logic behind many people now saying Diddy has the best neutral, BUT this one claim from a character who already had a legitimate claim does not open up new claims from characters like Cloud who still have neutrals nowhere near post nerf Sheik and post nerf Sheik still more than likely has the second best neutral.

Gunner's neutral is good but with awful OOS and poor CQC (if only that dtilt were f5 like Samus's), and an ineffective keepaway game against much of the cast, I doubt even fair can make up for it and definitely not enough to give Gunner the best neutral.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Why this Diddy praise all of a sudden? If people think he is currently the best, then this game really is balanced.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

The highest I could see Diddy Kong ATM is 3rd. I just don't see him topping the insane punish game of Bayonetta or the overall shenanigans of Rosalina, even with his great neutral, damage building, and kill setups.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I disagree~

Diddy does not lose neutral to Cloud. I've never really understood the point about Limit forcing approaches--charging any chargeable is disadvantageous especially a character that is ridiculously good at approaching like Diddy. For instance, Samus charging CS has the same cancelable properties, and despite Samus having arguably stronger anti approach tools than Cloud, suffers in neutral against Diddy. For sure Cloud has a stronger neutral than Samus in any situation, but not for the reasons (charging and anti approach) that you mentioned. Banking on charging Limit vs Diddy will forfeit stage control, not to mention Diddy will not run in and let himself get hit by Cloud's nair--that is crazy--the Diddy will at least shield and then the Cloud would be an idiot to use nair because of Diddy's OOS. Cloud's offensive options out of Limit charge are mediocre because he is stationary during the charge--don't know exactly how to explain what I mean, and Diddy can cover many defensive options at once.

Neutral is definitely not as one dimensional as, "X move forces approach and Y move stops approach, character wins neutral." Diddy has options like stage control and command grabs that cover so many options at once that it makes it tough for any character--and in the end, even Cloud has to approach during the match.

It's definitely way more volatile when both characters are mobile and spacing, nobody can ignore Cloud's nair, but I would argue that run up and shield is effective against every swordy, Cloud included, and Diddy easily wins the up close pressure game and OOS game. Diddy doesn't win neutral for free vs Cloud, but he definitely does not lose neutral to Cloud. But I could see it being closer to even, prob Diddy's advantage slightly.

A few other things--Reflectors do not beat banana, I don't even know what to say here. This is a way too one dimensional outlook on neutral and assumes way too many situations, like for instance the Diddy Kong player being below FG average.

Actually I will just quote everything that is too one dimensional and doesn't sum up neutral well.







They don't have command grabs, SHFF autocanceling front and back aerials with stupid range, OOS options anywhere near Diddy's (nvm, Cloud is close), any CQC options near Diddy's, and not even Gunner's fair momentum changes can compete with glidetossing, popgun reversals, or smash side b. Diddy also has one of the best projectiles in the game that not even charge blast, I would argue, is as good as.



umm...
Also many top players believed Diddy's neutral was on par with prepatch Sheik or better, Esam thought it was better.
That's the logic behind many people now saying Diddy has the best neutral, BUT this one claim from a character who already had a legitimate claim does not open up new claims from characters like Cloud who still have neutrals nowhere near post nerf Sheik and post nerf Sheik still more than likely has the second best neutral.

Gunner's neutral is good but with awful OOS and poor CQC (if only that dtilt were f5 like Samus's), and an ineffective keepaway game against much of the cast, I doubt even fair can make up for it and definitely not enough to give Gunner the best neutral.

Cloud's limit charge has better charge canceling than Samus's charge shot because Cloud can attack out of limit charge into any attack by pressing an attack and immediately pressing shield. Cloud can also cancel charging by pressing b. Since Cloud gets a buff to his movement, killing power, and combo ability from charging limit, it is usually better to approach rather than just letting Cloud get better. While you do have a good point about giving up stage control when charging, Cloud's limit charge has such a low commitment that Cloud can easily regain stage control with one of his several good options in the neutral. Cloud can down tilt out of Limit charge, and this option beats most aerial approaches (this also explains why Cloud's anti approach options are better than Samus's out of a charge). Run up and shield isn't very effective against Cloud since most of his aerials are safe enough on shield to avoid getting punished (although Diddy Kong can punish it OOS, Cloud's nair is safe with good spacing since Diddy's up smash doesn't have the best horizontal range).

My analysis of the neutral isn't one dimensional. I just make some intentionally one dimensional statements just to cover the possibility of a low level option catching a player off guard (even something as simple as projectile spam can give good players trouble if they don't have options to deal with it. Rush Hour smash has a video of False getting annoyed by FG Link spam until he adapted to it). I actually take options other than attacks into consideration (this is why I took the liberty to mention Gunner's great burst mobility, and the reason why I mentioned Gunner's other options besides fair for winning the neutral). While I take into account the number of options that a character has in the neutral, it is also important to assess the quality of the options in order to determine which neutral is the best. While Diddy Kong has a command grab, it isn't that fast so it isn't enough to make up for the fact that Gunner and Cloud have better options (Ganondorf also has a command grab, but he doesn't have a good neutral. Even though he has this option that a lot of characters don't have, it isn't good enough to make up for the other things that isn't good at in the neutral. I know that this isn't really comparable to Diddy's standing in the neutral, but I am bringing this up to show that having more options doesn't always give a character a better neutral). Also the autocancel on Diddy's fair isn't enough to make up for the fact that Gunner's fair is safer on shield. Diddy Kong's movement is greater than Gunner's, but Gunner's options are good enough to give Gunner the better neutral. This is also apparent in the Gunner versus Diddy Kong matchups in tournament play since Gunner has an even record against Diddy in top level play (ROM and Sean went 2-2 in Genesis 3. Sean won 2-0 in the first round of the first pool, but ROM beat sean 2-0 in order to get out of the first pool). I know that reflectors don't beat projectiles, but they are good options to reduce their effectiveness. The point that I brought up about shielding needles from long range is to address the fact that Sheik can hit Gunner if he throws out shorthop fair across the stage (shielding needles from long range helps Gunner get into the range where Gunner has better stage control than Sheik).

You are also wrong about Gunner's OOS and his CQC. While Gunner isn't very good at either one of these areas, Gunner is better at these areas than you claim. Gunner's out of shield up smash isn't that bad of an option since it has good horizontal coverage with its hitboxes, and it has the disjoint to beat most hitboxes above it. Although it isn't that fast, it has respectable speed at frame 11. In addition, Gunner's grab is frame 6, and Gunner can get combos and follow ups from a grab (these are in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner would not gain very much from a frame 5 dtilt since Gunner's jab is also frame 5, and it has better range. Gunner's jab has solid range, and it can get Gunner some follow ups (this is also mentioned in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). Since Gunner's fair is so good, Gunner will be outranging most opponents, and these aspects will not be as important.

Can you show me where these top players claim that Diddy's neutral is the best? Also, a top player's claim doesn't instantly make your point true. While it adds validity to your claim, there are many cases where top players have been wrong.

Your claim that Gunner's keepaway game is ineffective against most of the cast is not true. Since it is such a vague statement, I will disprove it with tournament results. This is a video of ROM using Mii Gunner to tie for 9th place in a 129 man tournament. This tournament also had great players such as Komorikiri, Ranai, 9B, and Ally. While their are other examples, I only have the video for this tournament.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

+ Sheik
- Ryu
- Meta Knight
+ Sonic
- Peach