Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Deleted member]

I honestly feel like we can't drop Duck Hunt down to the bottom just because of results alone. Have you ever seen or (who REALLY needs to drop) get Top 8 at a national or TAKE a national outright? Heck even characters in the tier above him like don't have results that good. We also mustn't forget the Brood who puts in work at Japan. Remember, these tier lists also incorporate results and objectively speaking, Duck Hunt's results are just too good to be in the dead last tier.

Speaking of results, why's in the bottom tier folks? Sure he's not good but Bottom Tier? I mean he does have a mixup game and it's not like he's got no results. BigD was able to make Top 50 with him at Genesis 3 while El_Bardo got Top 32 with him at BEAST 6 and on a solo run at that. That's pretty dang good for supposed Bottom Tier. I mean again, what Ganondorf, Zelda, or Jigglypuff has managed anything like that as of late? He really should go up to Tier 6 and switch places with Zelda.

@adom4 got 33rd place at BEAST 6 using only Ganon. People like Ray Kalm also still continue to put in work in Canada, and GanonTheBeast is ranked #2 in his state.

The reason Dedede has his results is because he's such a rare character to face in bracket, especially at top level. If you were facing a Dedede on the level of Big D for the first time, you'd definitely be stumped and be at a loss at how to deal with his tools. Once you do learn the matchup though, his weaknesses are incredibly exploitable. He's the easiest character in the game to combo due to having the second highest falling speed in the game, combined with such a large frame. His poor air speed (the slowest in the game, it even got decreased in 1.1.4!) means be has a very hard time escaping juggles or serial combos, even more so than other superheavies. Dedede has nothing to counteract very defensive, patient or lame play. Being burdened with such a fragile projectile and poor approach don't help him in that regard.


Because he's so damn slow both on the ground and in the air, he simply can't catch up with most of the cast. He's also one of the characters in the game that loses hardest to shield. Literally none if his moves are safe on shield besides fsmash or a well spaced bair. Almost anything Dedede does can be severely punished, even off a good read with something like dash attack because it's so laggy, hell even his JAB is unsafe. He may have results now, but once people exploit his terrible approach, disadvantage state and poor frame data, he's going to drop to bottom 3. I may have mained him since launch and up for a gear, but I've lost almost all faith in this character.

 

[Zerp]

I honestly feel like we can't drop Duck Hunt down to the bottom just because of results alone. Have you ever seen or (who REALLY needs to drop) get Top 8 at a national or TAKE a national outright? Heck even characters in the tier above him like don't have results that good. We also mustn't forget the Brood who puts in work at Japan. Remember, these tier lists also incorporate results and objectively speaking, Duck Hunt's results are just too good to be in the dead last tier.

Your right, Duck Hunt has pretty good results relatively, but the thing is, I'm not going off of results mainly. While he might be doing better in the meta than those characters you mentioned, I believe his toolkit and weaknesses are every bit as bad as theirs, for example, I believe if there was a Zelda player at the level of Brood, (who, for those of you who don't know, is amazing) that they'd be placing just as well as Brood, the point being that I don't believe Duck Hunt's legitimately a better character than the bottom tier characters. Still, it's a good point on your behalf, yes, if we were going off of results alone, then he definitely wouldn't be Bottom Tier, I'm just not going by results exclusively.

He has many stuff better, which can include stuff you just said, that are better than above average. He has many more strengths too. He doesn't die that quickly since his weight isn't that bad.

He dies quickly because his recovery is super easy to gimp, not because of his weight

Killing is one thing that I think wikl only become less of a problem in the future, since I think killing will become easier for him, due to moves such as up air and his edgeguarding, once people find better combos and fully maximize can usage, it won't be as bad.

I hope so, but I just don't see that happening anytime soon, and we can't just bank on the future to solve our problems, so for right now, I still see him as being bottom tier.

Aso, completely off topic, but have you fellows seen the Bidou tech yet? It's looking pretty interesting.

Maybe it will help out a few characters who benefit the most off it, who knows.

 

[Browny]

Bidou has been around for ages yet for some reason people think its brand new.

It died back then because the control scheme really messes up c-stick aerials which are extremely useful for many characters and it will die again for the same reason. Little Mac is probably the only one who doesnt lose out from it because of how amazing his PPivot utilt is and because he never uses his aerials anyway.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Your right, Duck Hunt has pretty good results relatively, but the thing is, I'm not going off of results mainly. While he might be doing better in the meta than those characters you mentioned, I believe his toolkit and weaknesses are every bit as bad as theirs, for example, I believe if there was a Zelda player at the level of Brood, (who, for those of you who don't know, is amazing) that they'd be placing just as well as Brood, the point being that I don't believe Duck Hunt's legitimately a better character than the bottom tier characters. Still, it's a good point on your behalf, yes, if we were going off of results alone, then he definitely wouldn't be Bottom Tier, I'm just not going by results exclusively.


He dies quickly because his recovery is super easy to gimp, not because of his weight

I hope so, but I just don't see that happening anytime soon, and we can't just bank on the future to solve our problems, so for right now, I still see him as being bottom tier.

Aso, completely off topic, but have you fellows seen the Bidou tech yet? It's looking pretty interesting.

Maybe it will help out a few characters who benefit the most off it, who knows.

His recovery isn't enough to make him "Die easily" apart from aganist Villager.

That wasn't the point of what I said; the point was that you are overexaggerating his killing problems.

As for Bidou, I outright refuse to use a tech that requires a differant controller scheme than one I use.

 

[TimG57867]

@adom4 got 33rd place at BEAST 6 using only Ganon. People like Ray Kalm also still continue to put in work in Canada, and GanonTheBeast is ranked #2 in his state.

The reason Dedede has his results is because he's such a rare character to face in bracket, especially at top level. If you were facing a Dedede on the level of Big D for the first time, you'd definitely be stumped and be at a loss at how to deal with his tools. Once you do learn the matchup though, his weaknesses are incredibly exploitable. He's the easiest character in the game to combo due to having the second highest falling speed in the game, combined with such a large frame. His poor air speed (the slowest in the game, it even got decreased in 1.1.4!) means be has a very hard time escaping juggles or serial combos, even more so than other superheavies. Dedede has nothing to counteract very defensive, patient or lame play. Being burdened with such a fragile projectile and poor approach don't help him in that regard.


Because he's so damn slow both on the ground and in the air, he simply can't catch up with most of the cast. He's also one of the characters in the game that loses hardest to shield. Literally none if his moves are safe on shield besides fsmash or a well spaced bair. Almost anything Dedede does can be severely punished, even off a good read with something like dash attack because it's so laggy, hell even his JAB is unsafe. He may have results now, but once people exploit his terrible approach, disadvantage state and poor frame data, he's going to drop to bottom 3. I may have mained him since launch and up for a gear, but I've lost almost all faith in this character.

Thanks for informing me about @adom4 . I was aware of GanontheBeast but I don't believe he's made big head way at nationals. I can't speak for Ray's tournament career as a whole but I've seen him do great stuff.

But on the note of Dedede I am not sure matchup inexperience is that critical to his few results(although it probably helps). I am pretty sure @El_Bardo has been one of the higher PR players in Spain for quite some time so people where he plays can't be that unfamiliar with him. I know DDD is easily one of the most unsafe characters in the game in terms of raw move set, especially with how easy it is to reflect his Gordos. His difficulty with shield is also an issue. But I feel his range, potential Gordo traps, recovery, and his air game (which admittably is hindered by his bottom tier air speed) gives him a combination of neutral and disadvantage that while still bad isn't quite as bad as the other bottom tiers. (Well except maybe Ganondorf who I feel his better in neutral but worse in disadvantage, especially with his recovery.) Point is, he's bad, definitely bottom 10 bad, maybe bottom 5 bad. But I am not sure he's bottom tier bad. But with the cast now full, perhaps his performance this year compared to those around him will make it clear where he really stands.

Your right, Duck Hunt has pretty good results relatively, but the thing is, I'm not going off of results mainly. While he might be doing better in the meta than those characters you mentioned, I believe his toolkit and weaknesses are every bit as bad as theirs, for example, I believe if there was a Zelda player at the level of Brood, (who, for those of you who don't know, is amazing) that they'd be placing just as well as Brood, the point being that I don't believe Duck Hunt's legitimately a better character than the bottom tier characters. Still, it's a good point on your behalf, yes, if we were going off of results alone, then he definitely wouldn't be Bottom Tier, I'm just not going by results exclusively.


He dies quickly because his recovery is super easy to gimp, not because of his weight

I hope so, but I just don't see that happening anytime soon, and we can't just bank on the future to solve our problems, so for right now, I still see him as being bottom tier.

Aso, completely off topic, but have you fellows seen the Bidou tech yet? It's looking pretty interesting.

Maybe it will help out a few characters who benefit the most off it, who knows.

I think his kit being as bad as theirs is debatable as he does have a relatively solid neutral. But aside from kit results are very important. Tier lists aren't about which character is best. They're about whose best in the meta and results are the best thing to show for that. A character could have an objectively better move set than another but if they get beaten harder at the competive level than the "worse" one does it really matter? That's why you didn't see much Charizard prior to 1.1.5 despite his design not being that bad.

 

[Zerp]

His recovery isn't enough to make him "Die easily" apart from against Villager.

His recovery is fine until he's forced to use his Up-B, once that happens, most characters simply jumping off the stage and using for example, Nair, should be able to gimp him during his Up-B, and if he decides to go above you, you can punish the landing pretty heavily. I should have been more specific and said his Up-Bs what gets him killed, not his entire recovery, my bad.

That wasn't the point of what I said; the point was that you are overexaggerating his killing problems.

I don't understand how I'm over-exaggerating his killing problems, his smashes are unreliable (as in, some hits will connect but not always with the last part with the knockback), and outside of D-air, his aerials kill at around 100% and above. He does kill pretty easily with D-air though, but that's his only real kill move outside of the smashes, which unfortunately don't work that well.

I really wish Duck Hunt was better.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bidou has been around forages yet for some reason people think its brand new.

It died back then because the control scheme really messes up c-stick aerials which are extremely useful for many characters and it will die again for the same reason. Little Mac is probably the only one who doesnt lose out from it because of how amazing his PPivot utilt is and because he never uses his aerials anyway.

That is such a good summary of this whole situation. I've been trying to say something like this for days, but couldn't find the right words to do so.

 

[DarkK]

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[Dirby]

+ anywhere between 6 - 10 Corrin. Why is he so slept on?
- 5 Bayonetta.
+1 Sheik. He's still more fantastic than most of the others.
Rosalina and Luma are fine.
- 5 Cloud.
What is this list even? Bayo mayo gets countered by too good a number of characters to be that high.

 

[Routa]

Bayo mayo gets countered by too good a number of characters to be that high.

Like?

 

[Munomario777]

+ anywhere between 6 - 10 Corrin. Why is he so slept on?
- 5 Bayonetta.
+1 Sheik. He's still more fantastic than most of the others.
Rosalina and Luma are fine.
- 5 Cloud.
What is this list even? Bayo mayo gets countered by too good a number of characters to be that high.

FAQ

Q) Can I vote +2, -3 etc.?
A) No, only + or -1 votes

 

[Deleted member]

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[Turrin]

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Makes me sad to see Roy so low... I didn't realize people had slammed him so far to be below Marth, Samus and Mii Swordfighter. I understand people thinking he's not "great" because his options are good but not strong enough to make him high tier... but this list makes him look pretty much unusable. He belongs in the higher end of tier 5 if you ask me.

 

[Deleted member]

thoughts on the current list:

• is not viable. All theory, no results. Keitaro getting bodied by Larry Lurr today shows how troubled this character is at high level.
  
• isn't a bottom 5 character. It's amazing how non-Palutena players know little of what Palutena actually does and how good her results are for her to warrant such a spot.
  
• Why aren't people understanding are full sizes and movesets.
  
• is still a bad character even after her buffs. Y'all are overhyping her.
  
• How is still above characters who have better neutrals along with having larger impacts on the meta than him () still baffles me.
• I'm loving how everyone is sleeping on .
• is in a good spot.

 

[Xandercosm]

That is such a good summary of this whole situation. I've been trying to say something like this for days, but couldn't find the right words to do so.

Browny has a knack for summing things up perfectly.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

+ anywhere between 6 - 10 Corrin. Why is he so slept on?
- 5 Bayonetta.
+1 Sheik. He's still more fantastic than most of the others.
Rosalina and Luma are fine.
- 5 Cloud.
What is this list even? Bayo mayo gets countered by too good a number of characters to be that high.

Like 90% of what you said here is wrong

 

[kiddo805]

+ The Goddess needs to be up higher!

+ She's too far from Marth right now...

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+(/)

That's all for now.

 

[Furret24]

I don't understand how I'm over-exaggerating his killing problems, his smashes are unreliable (as in, some hits will connect but not always with the last part with the knockback), and outside of D-air, his aerials kill at around 100% and above. He does kill pretty easily with D-air though, but that's his only real kill move outside of the smashes, which unfortunately don't work that well.

I really wish Duck Hunt was better.

While I will say Duck Hunt has the worst killing issues of any character in Smash 4, you are overstateing his killing issues. Dair is not his only kill option, nor is it his best. Uair and Bair are both pretty solid kill options. Nair, Can combos, and dair are somewhat situational, but can still kill fairly early. Utilt OOS can kill at 150% too. While unreliable, Fsmash does kill early.

I can't believe I'm defending Duck Hunt right now. :|

 

[Browny]

Robin Lucario DeDeDe +1

I really cant decide on two more, it seems to accurate to me... Anyway, updating.

 

[Routa]

Basically DHD sucks at killing the same way as Swordfighter does. By this I mean that he does have a lot of kill moves, but none of them are reliable.

 

[Furret24]

Basically DHD sucks at killing the same way as Swordfighter does. By this I mean that he does have a lot of kill moves, but none of them are reliable.

Not really. Bair and uair are pretty dependable for me. What you're describing is closer to Game and Watch, who up with Duck Hunt for having one of hardest times killing in the game. His only reliable kill move is Up Smash.

 

[Browny]

1.It's a little better than one of the worst, but otherwise correct.

2.The only jank hitboxes are his smashes, and those can connect a good amount anyway.

3.His throws are better than Cloud's though, and only a little worse than Bayonettas. He at least has down throw to forward air.

4.I'm pretty sure you're exaggerating that.

5.His projectiles are really good, actually. Can has great tricks and sheneagians, and can sometimes kill, also edgeguard. Side-B can get a good amount of damage when it hits, and is in general good.

He also has good dash attack, forward air, back air, neutral air, neutral special, and side special.

As for Link, he has bad frame data, is really slow, has bad recovery, many bad or terrible moves, and is just really bad in general. All of this stuff makes it hard for him to get damage too.

Also, Toon Link is so much better than Link that you can't really compare them to each other anymore.

Stop doing this I dont even know if I warned you before. No one has to explain their votes, and they dont have to listen to their reasoning be criticised by people. It just dissuades people from simply voting and keeping the thread clean and argument-free.

Also, UPDATED

 

[Ze Diglett]

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[Furret24]

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[wedl!!]

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[valakmtnsmash4]

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[Wintermelon43]

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-1Link's spot is litertatly so wrong, that it is destroying this tier list. He has terrible recovery, bad moveset, terrible frame data, terrible mobility, many terrible moves, such as dash attack, down tilt, and down smash, bad matchup spread, etc. It makes NO sense at all for Link to be here.

+1How is he bottom 7? He at least has good aierals and great kill power.

+1Almost no one, if anyone at all, thinks Mega Man is this low, people are just ignoring him

+1People really overexaggerate Duck Hunt's flaws, his killing ability is bad, but people act like he can't kill until at least 200, but only bad players will keep their opponent always living this long. He at least has up air, can tricks and edgeguarding, back air, etc. His smashes don't properly connect, but many inputted smashes are going to properly connect and cause the opponent to die. His smashes are still fairly good, or AT LEAST average. His recovery is bad, but so is Cloud's and he's the 3rd best. Duck Hunt's recovery isn't as easily edgeguarded as people act like, and its distance isn't as bad. People act like he's recovering in SLHG (lol). He still has some great strengths too, but people act like he has no strengths. He also has better results than a ton of the people ahead of him, due to Brood, Yusan, and Dandypenguin (5th at glitch, 13th at super smash con, 9th at tipped off)

-1When all miis get all customs, Then the last tier (I guess second last because of Mii Brawler tier) becomes five characters. I think the best out of those five (Which is 5th from last) is Roy. I don't see how exactatly he belongs in tier 6, when results, theory, and matchups are all worse than that.

 

[Luig]

If they want to fix this character, they shouldn't just give them a hoo hah that kills at 80, because she's still gonna have trouble getting that grab, and none of her core problems were addressed. So I'd say she's still bottom 10.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I am starting to like the look of this list actually. I agree with Bayonetta being in her own tier as of now, but the top 5 are perfect in my eyes.

Now then...

+1: I really don't think he's 7th from bottom lmao.
-1: Though his buffs were cool, I still don't think he has that much above the characters below him, nor does he have any reason to be above some of the characters above him.
-1: Same reasoning as the last time I downvoted him. He's not a bad character, at all. But I still think he isn't mid tier.
+1: Say what you like about Lucario, but he literally is one correct move can win him the match. I'd put him at the bottom of the tier 4 as of this post.
-1: This is another Kirby situation for me. I don't think he is bad so to speak, but I don't think he is as good as this. I can remember a time when I used to think Pac Man had potential for top 20. This was when I struggled against him. However, when you know how to fight him, his flaws become much more apparent, and is definetly not better than the likes of DK, Wario, Marth, or even Samus in my eyes.

 

[Xandercosm]

+1 Definitely looking strong in the meta. He is going places. I would say top 20 was pretty much fine so this vote is so he can move back there.
+1 He probably should move to the top of his current tier or bottom of the next. He's got great rep and obviously theory (ding-dong, damage output, etc).
+1 With two of his tough top tier MUs out of the way, the path is clear.
+1 He could go up a bit, I guess. I might change this one later.
-1 When I think of the word "garbage" Roy pops into my mind.

Sheik is so low now. Overall, though, I think the list is finally evening out.

 

[Yoshister]

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[Luig]

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[L1N3R1D3R]

+1 It's weird, but hear me out. He was already a great character before buffs (see iStudying), and now his buffs fixed a lot of the issues he still had. Additionally, his worst matchup has been nerfed, so I find even more reason to put him up in Tier 3 where he has shown to be capable of dominating.
+1 Aura. That is all. But seriously, his Aura mechanic plus his decent combos and good recovery make him a solid character to counterpick other higher characters like Sheik, which in my eyes puts him in Tier 4.
+1 The hell are you talking about, Bowserboy? He's still getting representation, he can still do crazy setups to tons of damage or kills, and his recovery is quite versatile. Putting him below Tier 5 would be unreasonable, and I even think he's Tier 4.
+1 I'm still unsure as to why he hasn't moved out of the "default" tier.
+1 I still think he could be a bit higher. Up B is amazing, he has various combos at wide percents, and his kill setups and power are not worth sneezing at.

I would upvote , but I predict that's going to be done to death.


EDIT: Changed upvote to upvote.

 

[Justinian]

+1: The buffs in the past two patches were too kind to him for him to not be able to hang with the Corrin / Greninja / arguably Sheik and Pikachu gang in the "borderline viable" tier.
-1: A lot of tier lists place him too high. I understand that he has potential, but where are his results?
+1: The Bird is a serious sleeper right now. He's definitely not solo-viable, but he doesn't have any really crummy MUs in tier 5 except Luigi.
-1: Okay, I get that she has overwhelmingly powerful advantage and disadvantage states and that she can kill you off one mistake at any percent, but can we give her some time to consistently dominate the meta before we go putting her in her own tier?

 

[Dusk Pit]

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[Deleted member]

Spoiler: For Reference

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VERSON 3.08 STARTING AT PATCH 1.1.4


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+1 Olimar is a rather solid character. Decent mobility, very good damage racking capabilities combined with good range and a long grab. Once his learning curve is mastered, he's definitely viable. Two Olimar players, GreenBeast and Myan got top 8 at regionals on the same weekend two weeks ago.
+1 People like John Numbers constantly make top 32 with her at majors, and RIN placed very high with her at G3. Her neutral and reward are way too good for her to be anything worse than mid tier.
-1 I'm not seeing Falco in this kind of position, especially when characters below him like ,and all have proven track records and better neutrals than him. Yes, he has good combo ability and frame data, but it doesn't matter when you have such a flimsy neutral and poor approach, and his poor run and air speed don't help him. I've also never seen any results from this character in majors in my entire life.
-1 Literally everyone below him except for the bottom 3 are better characters than Roy lol. He's quite literally been invalidated by every other swordsman in the game, and his ongoing lack of representation reflects that.
+1 TLTC got 13th place at FOW Saga this weekend out of 370+ entrants using only Palutena. Why people still continue to say this character has nothing going for her still baffles me.

If I had anymore votes, I'd downvote , or, and upvote. No way in hell Zelda is better than Dedede.

 

[Furret24]

+1People really overexaggerate Duck Hunt's flaws, his killing ability is bad, but people act like he can't kill until at least 200, but only bad players will keep their opponent always living this long. He at least has up air, can tricks and edgeguarding, back air, etc.

You're really overselling Duck Hunt here. Despite what I said earlier, Duck Hunt still sucks at killing. He has some okay kill moves, but they all have issues with them that limit Duck Hunt's ability to take stocks. What's worse is how is recovery sucks, giving him subpar survivability. It's slow, has no hitbox, and only gets mediocre height. It's probably the easiest recovery to gimp in the game, excluding Mac's.

His smashes don't properly connect, but many inputted smashes are going to properly connect and cause the opponent to die. His smashes are still fairly good, or AT LEAST average.

But what about those matches where you get the read and land the first hit of your smash, but it doesn't connect, leaving the match in jeopardy, and potentially costing you the match. Even if we ignore how they have horrible connecting issues, up and down smash also have only passable power. They're all also really laggy on top of that. His smashes suck and there's no denying that.

His recovery is bad, but so is Cloud's and he's the 3rd best. Duck Hunt's recovery isn't as easily edgeguarded as people act like, and its distance isn't as bad. People act like he's recovering in SLHG (lol).

Cloud also has one of the best neutrals in the game, amazing disjointed range on nearly every attack, great kill power, Top 5 air game, and Limit Break. Unlike Duck Hunt, Cloud has a lot of stuff that makes up for his admittedly awful recovery (though it's still better than Duck Hunt's). I've already stated how Duck Hunt's recovery is just as bad as people make it out to be above, so I won't repeat myself here.

Yes, Duck Hunt has some strengths. Can is a versatile projectile, he has good mobility, he can rack up damage pretty well. But his flaws heavily outweigh his strengths. He is bad and there's no denying that.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You're really overselling Duck Hunt here. Despite what I said earlier, Duck Hunt still sucks at killing. He has some okay kill moves, but they all have issues with them that limit Duck Hunt's ability to take stocks. What's worse is how is recovery sucks, giving him subpar survivability. It's slow, has no hitbox, and only gets mediocre height. It's probably the easiest recovery to gimp in the game, excluding Mac's.
But what about those matches where you get the read and land the first hit of your smash, but it doesn't connect, leaving the match in jeopardy, and potentially costing you the match. Even if we ignore how they have horrible connecting issues, up and down smash also have only passable power. They're all also really laggy on top of that. His smashes suck and there's no denying that.

Cloud also has one of the best neutrals in the game, amazing disjointed range on nearly every attack, great kill power, Top 5 air game, and Limit Break. Unlike Duck Hunt, Cloud has a lot of stuff that makes up for his admittedly awful recovery (though it's still better than Duck Hunt's). I've already stated how Duck Hunt's recovery is just as bad as people make it out to be above, so I won't repeat myself here.

Yes, Duck Hunt has some strengths. Can is a versatile projectile, he has good mobility, he can rack up damage pretty well. But his flaws heavily outweigh his flaws. He is bad and there's no denying that.

Duck Hunt's recovery is better than Cloud's unless he has limit.

I didn't say Duck Hunt doesn't have trouble killing, it is still a major flaw. Smashes connecting problem, it will almost never cost you a match. I never said it wasn't bad though, it is a problem.

I also never said Duck Hunt isn't bad. There still is a ton of characters above him that are bad too.

 

[LRodC]

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Can debate these if necessary.

 

[Furret24]

Duck Hunt's recovery is better than Cloud's unless he has limit.

Cloud will usually have Limit since it's so easy to get. Even without Limit, his recovery is still only barley worse, since atleast it's fast and has a hitbox.

I didn't say Duck Hunt doesn't have trouble killing, it is still a major flaw. Smashes connecting problem, it will almost never cost you a match. I never said it wasn't bad though, it is a problem.

That's still a match you lost solely because the **** attack didn't work. Nobody else has this problem with their smashes.

I also never said Duck Hunt isn't bad. There still is a ton of characters above him that are bad too.

But they're still better than him. ;P