Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Xandercosm]

Well, you are asking for an explanation, so mission accomplished.

I just think that other characters are better (Sonic, Fox, MK, Diddy, Villager, Pika, maybe Corrin), at least in terms of what they are capable of. Mario doesn't have much to justify a Top 10 position. Not fast enough (outside aerial mobility), poor range, difficulty in sealing stocks and meh neutral. Still a good character, but barely high tier.

Why does it bother you? It's a community tier list where votes are given for various reasons. Don't take it seriously.

Villager is barely top 15, Corrin is at best high-mid, MK is still good but no longer top 10, and Pika has literally nothing going for him (barely any rep, awful results). Sonic and Fox could arguably be above him but that's up to personal opinion. Mario currently has some of the most, if not THE most dominating results (bar pre-patch Sheik and maybe ZSS). That speaks for a lot. Also, in the last patch, two of his tougher MUs got nerfed hard. At this point, I would say he is potentially top 5. Amazing MU spread, best frame data in the game, amazing mobility, spammable Smash attacks, and a solid projectile to boot. Check and mate.

By the way, this is the 10,000th reply to this thread! Sweet!

 

[Deleted member]

Villager is barely top 15, Corrin is at best high-mid, MK is still good but no longer top 10, and Pika has literally nothing going for him (barely any rep, awful results). Sonic and Fox could arguably be above him but that's up to personal opinion. Mario currently has some of the most, if not THE most dominating results (bar pre-patch Sheik and maybe ZSS). That speaks for a lot. Also, in the last patch, two of his tougher MUs got nerfed hard. At this point, I would say he is potentially top 5. Amazing MU spread, best frame data in the game, amazing mobility, spammable Smash attacks, and a solid projectile to boot. Check and mate.

This post is incredibly biased.

While Pikachu's results have declined, they're not awful. He still has a slew of advantages and he's a good character overall. You are legit ****ting me if you tell me Pikachu doesn't have a great neutral. The main thing he struggles with is getting kills, and even then he has up throw to RAR Thunder. Villager has excellent results in Japan and he even still has players here in the West, even if they're not as impressive as Ranai.

It's just his opinion. A couple Mario downvotes isn't going to mean much in the long run, no need to be so militant.

 

[Xandercosm]

This post is incredibly biased.

While Pikachu's results have declined, they're not awful. He still has a slew of advantages and he's a good character overall. You are legit ****ting me if you tell me Pikachu doesn't have a great neutral. The main thing he struggles with is getting kills, and even then he has up throw to RAR Thunder. Villager has excellent results in Japan and he even still has players here in the West, even if they're not as impressive as Ranai.

It's just his opinion. A couple Mario downvotes isn't going to mean much in the long run, no need to be so militant.

I've become skeptical about Pikachu recently and so have a lot of people (just look at the downvotes). We all know Pikachu isn't top tier and never was. I think he's good and top 15 no doubt but he doesn't have the rep or results to back him up. Just a bunch of theory-crafting similar to Ryu. I dunno about Villager, though. He's super awkward and really only has Ranai. I like him and I think he's also top 15 but kind of falls in the same category as Pikachu.

I'm a militant Mario main! The Mario mains must unite to rise up and rule the world!

 

[Wintermelon43]

I've become skeptical about Pikachu recently and so have a lot of people (just look at the downvotes). We all know Pikachu isn't top tier and never was. I think he's good and top 15 no doubt but he doesn't have the rep or results to back him up. Just a bunch of theory-crafting similar to Ryu. I dunno about Villager, though. He's super awkward and really only has Ranai. I like him and I think he's also top 15 but kind of falls in the same category as Pikachu.

I'm a militant Mario main! The Mario mains must unite to rise up and rule the world!

When you exclude SS, MJG, and Captawsum, you're correct on the Villager thing

 

[TheRudeOne]

I think I might have accidentally sparked a Mario rebellion. I mean I did later edit in my explanations if anyone wondering wants to see why I voted that way. Sorry for the Mario mains for starting that rebellion.

 

[Stick Dude]

+1
+1
+1
-1
-1

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Pit and Mario having atleast 1 downvote...Aw hell to the nah

 

[xXEnderSeanXx]

-1
+1
+1
-1
+1

 

[Tyranitarphantom]

+1
+1
+1
+1
-1
Also, just saying, it's really silly to allow Miis to use their full range of sizes and moves when there are literally zero serious tournaments that allow size changes, and allowing full use of all specials is not yet the standard either (though at least some places do allow it).

 

[Routa]

Also, just saying, it's really silly to allow Miis to use their full range of sizes and moves when there are literally zero serious tournaments that allow size changes, and allowing full use of all specials is not yet the standard either (though at least some places do allow it).

Union (biggest tournament in Finland) has full Mii moveset allowed. I would like to add that Europa is pretty much Any size/Guest XXXX area. Also placing Any size XXXX's in the tier list is far easier than Guest 1111 due to more Mii mains being more familiar with their own sets than Guest 1111 and therefore it is easier to place them. Oh we are looking at Customs Off meta. And guess who can alter their size when customs are off?

Anyways let's continue with the voting shall we?

 

[Zerp]

Also, just saying, it's really silly to allow Miis to use their full range of sizes and moves when there are literally zero serious tournaments that allow size changes, and allowing full use of all specials is not yet the standard either (though at least some places do allow it).

I kind of agree, the current Guest XXXX ruleset is the ideal one imo, but it's not reflective of most tournies outside of Europe, so it shouldn't be the only one represented. Honestly, I feel like we should probably have two separate Mii characters per class (Swordsman, Fighter, Gunner) on the tier list, one for Guest 1111 rulesets and one for Guest XXXX rulesets, since their viability changes so drastically depending on the ruleset.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Union (biggest tournament in Finland) has full Mii moveset allowed. I would like to add that Europa is pretty much Any size/Guest XXXX area. Also placing Any size XXXX's in the tier list is far easier than Guest 1111 due to more Mii mains being more familiar with their own sets than Guest 1111 and therefore it is easier to place them. Oh we are looking at Customs Off meta. And guess who can alter their size when customs are off?

Anyways let's continue with the voting shall we?

We are not saying guest 1111, but Guest XXXX. It seems illogical to vote on something that has only been majorly used by a tournament in one not as big community. I think we should have done it Zero Soul's way with both styles and not just one because they are like different characters

 

[Thecombosetups]

+
+
+
+
+

 

[Routa]

We are not saying guest 1111, but Guest XXXX. It seems illogical to vote on something that has only been majorly used by a tournament in one not as big community. I think we should have done it Zero Soul's way with both styles and not just one because they are like different characters

Ah. Well I personally would rather vote only the Guest XXXX incarnation due to it being a standard in Europe and the fact that I am far more familiar with it. I'm sure other Mii voters are far more familiar with Guest XXXX than with Guest 1111 and therefore would rather vote the Guest XXXX version. Also how would you mark which Mii do you vote? By saying like for example +(GX) and -(G1) or..?

I do get your and Zerp 's idea of voting 2 different Miis, but I see no point voting 2 different variations. It is like voting Ryu that uses Light inputs only and voting Ryu that uses Heavy inputs only. Yeah I'm not that great at explaining stuff, but I hope you understood what I meant.

 

[DPKdebator]

+1 Mario
+1 Doc
-1 Pikachu
-1 Ryu
-1 Sonic

 

[Furret24]

It's been a while since I last voted.
+
+
+ (Mainly to ensure he doesn't end up in Tier 9)
+
-

 

[thuddy]

+1
+1
+1
+1
-1

 

[Deleted member]

Time to make a list of characters buffed/nerfed from the transition from Brawl/Melee since I have nowhere else to post it.

Spoiler: boop

- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Slightly buffed
- Significantly nerfed
- Notably nerfed, but still a high tier character
- Buffed
- Notably nerfed
- Notably nerfed, one of the most nerfed characters from Brawl to Smash 4
- Slightly nerfed, but in a far better position to the cast compared to Brawl
- Buffed, but not enough to compensate for his fundamental issues
- Notably buffed
- Slightly nerfed
- Slightly nerfed
- Notably buffed
- Ruined everything about him except Aura Slightly nerfed
- Nerfed, but in a better position in Smash 4's meta compared to Brawl's
- Buffed, worse as a character than he was in Brawl but not relative to the cast
- Notably buffed
- Notably nerfed, but a viable character nonetheless similar to Olimar
- Significantly nerfed, still considered high-tier (though this might change in the future)
- Significantly buffed
- Notably nerfed
- Significantly buffed
- Notably nerfed, but relatively viable unlike other Brawl vets
- Slightly buffed. Ditto as Luigi's circumstances.
- Slightly buffed
- Slightly buffed
- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Slightly buffed
- Slightly nerfed, still a viable high-mid tier character
- Slightly nerfed
- Notably buffed
- Notably nerfed as a character, fares (somewhat?) better in Smash 4's meta
- Notably buffed

This was for people wondering how most of the veterans fared when transitioning to this game. Call me out if I'm wrong on any of this.

 

[Furret24]

Time to make a list of characters buffed/nerfed from the transition from Brawl/Melee since I have nowhere else to post it.

Spoiler: boop

- Notably Buffed
- Buffed
- Buffed
- Significantly nerfed
- Nerfed, but still a high tier character
- Buffed
- Notably Nerfed
- Significantly Nerfed, one of the most nerfed characters from Brawl to Smash 4
- Nerfed, but in a far better position to the cast compared to Brawl
- Buffed
- Buffed
- Slightly Nerfed
- Slightly Nerfed
- Buffed
- Nerfed
- Nerfed, but in a better position in Smash 4's meta compared to Brawl's
- Buffed, worse as a character than he was in Brawl but not relative to the cast
- Buffed
- Significantly Nerfed. Ditto as Falco's situation.
- Significantly nerfed. Like Marth and Falco, but not to the same extent.
- Significantly buffed
- Notably Nerfed
- Significantly buffed
- Nerfed, but relatively viable unlike other Brawl vets
- Buffed. Ditto as Luigi's circumstances.
- Buffed
- Buffed
- Buffed
- Notably Buffed
- Buffed
- Notably Buffed
- Buffed
- Nerfed, still a viable high-mid tier character
- Nerfed
- Notably Buffed
- Nerfed
- Buffed

This was for people wondering how most of the veterans fared when transitioning to this game. Call me out if I'm wrong on any of this.

Added "Slightly" and "Notably" so the list is a little less broad.

 

[Funbot28]

+1
+1
+1
-1
-1

 

[DMWN]

Time to make a list of characters buffed/nerfed from the transition from Brawl/Melee since I have nowhere else to post it.

Spoiler: boop

- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Slightly buffed
- Significantly nerfed
- Notably nerfed, but still a high tier character
- Notably buffed
- Notably nerfed
- Notably nerfed, one of the most nerfed characters from Brawl to Smash 4
- Slightly nerfed, but in a far better position to the cast compared to Brawl
- Buffed, but not enough to compensate for his fundamental issues
- Notably buffed
- Slightly nerfed
- Notably nerfed
- Notably buffed
- Ruined everything about him except Aura Slightly nerfed
- Nerfed, but in a better position in Smash 4's meta compared to Brawl's
- Buffed, worse as a character than he was in Brawl but not relative to the cast
- Notably buffed
- Notably nerfed. Ditto as Falco's situation.
- Significantly nerfed. Like Marth and Falco, but not to the same extent.
- Significantly buffed
- Notably nerfed
- Significantly buffed
- Notably nerfed, but relatively viable unlike other Brawl vets
- Slightly buffed. Ditto as Luigi's circumstances.
- Slightly buffed
- Slightly buffed
- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Slightly buffed
- Slightly nerfed, still a viable high-mid tier character
- Slightly nerfed
- Notably buffed
- Notably nerfed as a character, fares (somewhat?) better in Smash 4's meta
- Notably buffed

This was for people wondering how most of the veterans fared when transitioning to this game. Call me out if I'm wrong on any of this.

Spot-on, Feelicks.

Also, it wasn't Dedede you were defensive about not being botton 5--it was Samus/Palutena. Whoops.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Added "Slightly" and "Notably" so the list is a little less broad.

I do just want to add to this that, though Marth is considered notably to significantly nerfed in the transition, he still fairs much better than other notably nerfed veterans, like Falco and Dedede. This is mainly due to his buffs in patches. So while he is significantly nerfed, he is still very usable and viable, unlike the other two.

 

[Galgatha]

I do just want to add to this that, though Marth is considered notably to significantly nerfed in the transition, he still fairs much better than other notably nerfed veterans, like Falco and Dedede (mainly after his buffs in patches). So while he is significantly nerfed, he is still very usable and viable, unlike the other two.

Im sorry I just had to stop and ask, how come falco isn't viable? That makes abosulutely no sense period as he still has a great air game, arguably the strongest bair in the game, 2 mteor smashes, has more power than fox so he can kill earlier, bthrow kills, decent combos out of both dthrow and uthrow plus good recovery.

I know its just an opinion but when people say "such and such character arent viable" makes no sense, its more like most people who frequent the competitve scene play as characters in the top 10 for a number of reasons, but also the community (at least here in america) shun those who tend to main lower tier characters and usually say stuff like (for example as this has happened to me) "why play falco? Why not fox? Youll naturally do better." when falco and fox have completely different play styles. Sorry, but imo all characters are viable, some just require alot more effort to get there.

rant over.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Im sorry I just had to stop and ask, how come falco isn't viable? That makes abosulutely no sense period as he still has a great air game, arguably the strongest bair in the game, 2 mteor smashes, has more power than fox so he can kill earlier, bthrow kills, decent combos out of both dthrow and uthrow plus good recovery.

I know its just an opinion but when people say "such and such character arent viable" makes no sense, its more like most people who frequent the competitve scene play as characters in the top 10 for a number of reasons, but also the community (at least here in america) shun those who tend to main lower tier characters and usually say stuff like (for example as this has happened to me) "why play falco? Why not fox? Youll naturally do better." when falco and fox have completely different play styles. Sorry, but imo all characters are viable, some just require alot more effort to get there.

rant over.

I do hate it when people say "why play X when you can just play Y?". I too, much prefer Falco to Fox, though I totally accept that Fox is significantly better than him (which doesn't really matter to me, I have no ambition to seriously play either of them).

However, Falco still isn't a great character. Yes, Falco has good aerials, general good power, decent throws etc, but the reason Falco was so good in other games was his threatening and option opening neutral game. His laser and down air were staples of his game before. Not only were they easy to abuse and quick to come out, but when they hit, they opened plenty of options Falco could take advantage of. Both of these moves have been significantly toned down for Smash 4, and as such, Falco is no longer a threat in the neurtal; his neutral game is now slow and generally predictable. Another reason for him being so good before was his fantastic punish game, which due to the toning down of said moves, and the removal of DACUS, is far less unpredictable and much more linear than before. He no longer has his safe option openers to put his power to good use. What's the point of having power when you can't safely make use of it? (this is something Fox can do)

That's not to say Falco is a bad character though. Though very hard to do, when he does win neutral, he can get good follow ups and take advantage of his good throws and aerials. And though his neutral is bad, he does have a good recovery and good off stage presence, unlike some other characters with bad neutrals (like Roy and Ganon for example). This still doesn't make up for it.

All in all, Falco still doesn't have many results or many notable players to speak of either. Falco is by no means a terrible character, but he certainly isn't a good one. "Lackluster" would be a good term to describe Falco by my standards.

 

[Galgatha]

Im sorry I did go on a rant, I just dont like seeing "unviable" being tossed around as though the character shouldnt even be in the game. I understand he was nerfed a bit between brawl and smash 4, but I think the community reaction went a little over board, and since the game came out he has received some buffs. I think, and have seen, Falco do really good, even against high tier characters, it just might take a little more effort. Plus Falco has some tools that Fox does not, like added spacing with his reflector which can double as edge guarding or preventing it. His dair is still powerful, just takes like a second or so longer for it to come out.

I can accept your opinion as falco being "lackluster", but I still main him and love the bird. Falco for life!

 

[LRodC]

Im sorry I did go on a rant, I just dont like seeing "unviable" being tossed around as though the character shouldnt even be in the game. I understand he was nerfed a bit between brawl and smash 4, but I think the community reaction went a little over board, and since the game came out he has received some buffs. I think, and have seen, Falco do really good, even against high tier characters, it just might take a little more effort. Plus Falco has some tools that Fox does not, like added spacing with his reflector which can double as edge guarding or preventing it. His dair is still powerful, just takes like a second or so longer for it to come out.

I can accept your opinion as falco being "lackluster", but I still main him and love the bird. Falco for life!

The tier gap isn't even too bad in Smash 4. It's not like Melee where you can lose at the character select screen. Counterplay and strategy is still necessary regardless of tiers and you can't just body any character for free.

You're still comfortable with Falco regardless and that's pretty much what matters. If I had to choose one of the Star Fox characters, I'd choose Falco too just because I like his playstyle more than Fox's.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Im sorry I did go on a rant, I just dont like seeing "unviable" being tossed around as though the character shouldnt even be in the game. I understand he was nerfed a bit between brawl and smash 4, but I think the community reaction went a little over board, and since the game came out he has received some buffs. I think, and have seen, Falco do really good, even against high tier characters, it just might take a little more effort. Plus Falco has some tools that Fox does not, like added spacing with his reflector which can double as edge guarding or preventing it. His dair is still powerful, just takes like a second or so longer for it to come out.

I can accept your opinion as falco being "lackluster", but I still main him and love the bird. Falco for life!

To be fair though, some characters are just not as viable as others. It's this reason you see more Sheik, Bayonetta, Falcon etc more than Falco, Roy, Ganondorf etc. So while the characters themselves are generally usable and have good traits, they aren't as good as other characters, or have a notifiable problem that prevents them from being good. Falco IMO is more of the second option. 2 to 3 less landing lag frames on Nair and Fair, slightly less lag time between multiple laser shots (as in you can shoot them slightly more frequently), and less end lag on laser could see Falco being a lot better IMO. At least then he would have decent options in neutral.

But don't let things like this stop you from using a character, especially Falco, because he really isn't terrible. Just don't go expecting to win all the time, especially at a tournament.

 

[Galgatha]

Well it might just be placebo, but it seems like falco has less lag when he does a b reverse laser instead of normal laser, plus he has less lag in the air than on the ground. So short hop laser is still a viable option for neutral, just cant shoot out 2 lasers like you could in brawl.

Lol they could nerf Falco to the ground and I would still play him. I love his style and love him as a character.

LRodC no I agree that compared to both melee and brawl the tier gaps arent anywhere as huge. I personally believe that smash 4 is a pretty well balanced game in general. My only real complaint is that the meta seems to have become very top heavy due to the top 10 characters being, well easier to get results with, so the meta for those characters advances quickly. Where as say bowser jr and zelda and duck hunt seem to have a stagnent meta in comparison because at high levels nobody really plays those characters. You will only see those characters in locals or friendlies, rarely in regionals, and never at nationals. most competitive players just wont put the time and effort into those characters to push the meta forward and the people who do love these characters tend to either not know about the meta/competitive side and simply play for fun with friends or arent well known and therefore dont make really big changes in terms of the meta.

 

[inauric]

+ countervoting, she's fine where she is and was always underrated even before the buff
+
+
+
+

 

[Deleted member]

Time to make a list of characters buffed/nerfed from the transition from Brawl/Melee since I have nowhere else to post it.

Spoiler: boop

- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Slightly buffed
- Significantly nerfed
- Notably nerfed, but still a high tier character
- Buffed
- Notably nerfed
- Notably nerfed, one of the most nerfed characters from Brawl to Smash 4
- Slightly nerfed, but in a far better position to the cast compared to Brawl
- Buffed, but not enough to compensate for his fundamental issues
- Notably buffed
- Slightly nerfed
- Slightly nerfed
- Notably buffed
- Ruined everything about him except Aura Slightly nerfed
- Nerfed, but in a better position in Smash 4's meta compared to Brawl's
- Buffed, worse as a character than he was in Brawl but not relative to the cast
- Notably buffed
- Notably nerfed, but a viable character nonetheless similar to Olimar
- Significantly nerfed, still considered high-tier (though this might change in the future)
- Significantly buffed
- Notably nerfed
- Significantly buffed
- Notably nerfed, but relatively viable unlike other Brawl vets
- Slightly buffed. Ditto as Luigi's circumstances.
- Slightly buffed
- Slightly buffed
- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Notably buffed
- Slightly buffed
- Slightly nerfed, still a viable high-mid tier character
- Slightly nerfed
- Notably buffed
- Notably nerfed as a character, fares (somewhat?) better in Smash 4's meta
- Notably buffed

This was for people wondering how most of the veterans fared when transitioning to this game. Call me out if I'm wrong on any of this.

I made a chart of it, yaaaay!

 

[Green Zelda]

Nice chart @Feelicks!

- Buffed, worse as a character than he was in Brawl but not relative to the cast

- Slightly buffed. Ditto as Luigi's circumstances.

Heh, people say this a lot. What does it mean? (were certain aspects that made them better nerfed, but they were also buffed in other areas?)

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Peach is overall better as a character though?
What makes someone worse as a character?
Is it like Fox where due to this game engine and mechanics he's actually better despite the fact his character was noticably nerfed from Brawl?
If that's the case, Peach especially is a better character overall.

 

[Deleted member]

Peach is overall better as a character though?
What makes someone worse as a character?
Is it like Fox where due to this game engine and mechanics he's actually better despite the fact his character was noticably nerfed from Brawl?
If that's the case, Peach especially is a better character overall.

It is like Fox's case.

I'll just copypaste this from the Reddit thread I linked:

"I disagree that Peach is more viable in the Smash 4 meta. Kie was a lot more of a force in the Japanese Brawl meta than is Umeki or SlayerZ in the Japanese/US Sm4sh meta, as I see it.

And it's because, like you said, she is an overall worse character in Sm4sh. She doesn't have glidetossing, what was an invaluable approach, escape, and combo tool for her. No edge-cancel turnips, bonewalking, or free-pulling; in fact she now has a slower turnip pull, so all of that together severely reduces the amount of situations where she can pull safely. Her movement and application with float-dashing isn't what it used to be. The air dodge lag upon landing makes floating in the air a lot less safer, without the air dodge as a bail-out. The auto-cancel window of her fair, her best move for racking up damage and scoring kills, was reduced to the very end of the move, which makes landing it a lot harder. I could go on. The Brawl engine happens to favor her a lot more than the tweaked, more refined engine of Sm4sh."

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

That's sorta debatable.....yea turnips, literally besides increased pull rate of better ones is worse overall....again...
But her shield safety along with her better killing and comboes are a good thing.
Her grab and throw game is definitely better then before, with a decent downthrow and a(lackluster) kill throw.
Her Fair may have a longer AC window, but it's range and power(safety too?) is increased and is still practically unpunishable if spaced right and still autocancels from a SH anyways.

Her new Uair Is especially a great change.
This games increased hitstun makes her comboes deadly and she has several scary moves in her arsenal.
What's also good is her better double jump that was made better(thank God) so it slightly improves her recovery and makes her UpB or Uair better at KOing since she can actually go higher in the air with them.

Basically she lost some good things(mainly the mobility and techs with her turnips) but she got a good amount of compensations for that and they definitely seem to make up for it, it least to me.
Though I do see your points and they are on point.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Villager is barely top 15, Corrin is at best high-mid, MK is still good but no longer top 10, and Pika has literally nothing going for him (barely any rep, awful results). Sonic and Fox could arguably be above him but that's up to personal opinion. Mario currently has some of the most, if not THE most dominating results (bar pre-patch Sheik and maybe ZSS). That speaks for a lot. Also, in the last patch, two of his tougher MUs got nerfed hard. At this point, I would say he is potentially top 5. Amazing MU spread, best frame data in the game, amazing mobility, spammable Smash attacks, and a solid projectile to boot. Check and mate.

By the way, this is the 10,000th reply to this thread! Sweet!

Villager is completely a top 15 character

 

[Zerp]

I really wanted to upvote Pikachu but I'm scared it's going to become a yo-yo like process of him going up and down endlessly, lol.
+ 1 and + 1 I feel like both of these fellows belong a tad higher, being up with R.O.B. and Peach makes sense imo
+ 1 I feel like people don't give Olimar much attention and that's the only reason why he's not up any higher.
- 1 Tier 5 feels right to me.
I'll save my fifth vote for later.

Using my fifth vote now if that's okay.
-1 I've been thinking about my favorite newcomer for a while, and the more I think about him, the more I'm starting to see him as a bottom tier character. He's got this atrocious recovery that just screams "GIMP ME!", his smashes are extremely unreliable, and he struggles to kill outside of D-air. While his camping game and air game are both decent, unfortunately, I don't think they are enough to save him from a bottom tier placement, which is a shame.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Using my fifth vote now if that's okay.
-1 I've been thinking about my favorite newcomer for a while, and the more I think about him, the more I'm starting to see him as a bottom tier character. He's got this atrocious recovery that just screams "GIMP ME!", his smashes are extremely unreliable, and he struggles to kill outside of D-air. While his camping game and air game are both decent, unfortunately, I don't think they are enough to save him from a bottom tier placement, which is a shame.

And once again, people look at his flaws, overexaggerate then, and assume there's no strengths at all, and dismiss him as bottom tier when that isn't true at all.

 

[Zerp]

And once again, people look at his flaws, overexaggerate then, and assume there's no strengths at all, and dismiss him as bottom tier when that isn't true at all.

I'm not discounting his strengths though, I acknowledge/d that his air game and camping ability are both decent/above average, but I feel his flaws are still too much of a problem for him to be any higher than bottom, he's got potential, but it's heavily marred by how quickly he dies and his disability to kill. He's not terrible, but he's got some serious problems that I think would have to hold him down in the bottom placements, I could be wrong however, but that's how I see it at least.

 

[TimG57867]

I'm not discounting his strengths though, I acknowledge/d that his air game and camping ability are both decent/above average, but I feel his flaws are still too much of a problem for him to be any higher than bottom, he's got potential, but it's heavily marred by how quickly he dies and his disability to kill. He's not terrible, but he's got some serious problems that I think would have to hold him down in the bottom placements, I could be wrong however, but that's how I see it at least.

I honestly feel like we can't drop Duck Hunt down to the bottom just because of results alone. Have you ever seen or (who REALLY needs to drop) get Top 8 at a national or TAKE a national outright? Heck even characters in the tier above him like don't have results that good. We also mustn't forget the Brood who puts in work at Japan. Remember, these tier lists also incorporate results and objectively speaking, Duck Hunt's results are just too good to be in the dead last tier.

Speaking of results, why's in the bottom tier folks? Sure he's not good but Bottom Tier? I mean he does have a mixup game and it's not like he's got no results. BigD was able to make Top 50 with him at Genesis 3 while El_Bardo got Top 32 with him at BEAST 6 and on a solo run at that. That's pretty dang good for supposed Bottom Tier. I mean again, what Ganondorf, Zelda, or Jigglypuff has managed anything like that as of late? He really should go up to Tier 6 and switch places with Zelda.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm not discounting his strengths though, I acknowledge/d that his air game and camping ability are both decent/above average, but I feel his flaws are still too much of a problem for him to be any higher than bottom, he's got potential, but it's heavily marred by how quickly he dies and his disability to kill. He's not terrible, but he's got some serious problems that I think would have to hold him down in the bottom placements, I could be wrong however, but that's how I see it at least.

He has many stuff better, which can include stuff you just said, that are better than above average. He has many more strengths too. He doesn't die that quickly since his weight isn't that bad. Killing is one thing that I think wikl only become less of a problem in the future, since I think killing will become easier for him, due to moves such as up air and his edgeguarding, once people find better combos and fully maximize can usage, it won't be as bad.