Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Deleted member]

You have to admit though, its great to see the lower tier characters having a passionate player base. It's these sort of people who when they do eventually get buffed, will be labbing and pushing the characters as hard as possible. It's great.

But I get what you are saying about lower tier characters. For example, Samus is one of my secondaries. She is one for a reason, as she just isn't fantastic (I think top of the low tier). When I go on about Samus, I try to show that she is not the worst character in the game, but I know in her current state she would struggle in a national level, which is why she is a secondary, and why I main Rosalina and Mario. To be fair, at least Samus has results and evidence/combos etc to back her up, unlike characters like Jigglypuff.

In fact, I might create an early impressions 1.1.3 tier list...

Here are my first impressions on 1.1.3. This is just for fun, and it is not reliable yet, as the patch is just settling in. Nonetheless...

Top)
High)
Low High)
Mid)
Low Mid)
Low)
Bottom)

Just a few notes about this...

• I usually put Ness in the High tier. But after reconsidering his abysmal matchup with Rosalina, I just felt that he should be top of Low High.
• I also feel Greninja and Toon Link deserve Low High places, results or not. Greninja gets a lot of sh** but is still very good, and I feel Toon Link is slept on highly, especially considering the things he can do with Bombs.
• I placed Cloud at the top of Mid for now. I don't think he is any lower at this point in time. However, give him a month or so to settle in and that opinion is open to change.
• Bowser, I placed near the top Low Mid. I feel there is potential for him to go up to Mid Tier, but just to be safe, I placed him there, because he still struggles against projectiles etc.
• Samus and Mewtwo are now near the bottom of Low Mid, due to various buffs and metagame developments.
• I placed Little Mac in Low tier. Now I am not ignoring his insanely good ground game. I just feel at top level where there is more than just FD, and players know how to exploit and mindgame him, I just feel he is outclassed. Also, no input lag.
• Zelda, Sword, Dedede, Palutena and Gunner were tough to order for me, so they are all very similar by my standards.
• Brawler and Jigglypuff are definitely my choices to go in Bottom tier.

>Zelda above Dedede

Bruh, no.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I think it's funny how you put Marth and Lucina in mid. They should both be in the middle of low mid, in my opinion and almost everyone else's. No h8 just could you explain your logic?

You could call it main bias, but in all honesty it isn't. Marth and Lucina are near enough smack bang in the middle of the list, and unless they get any more buffs, that is where I think they belong. Marth is a solid character. Unfortunately he is held back from being any higher due to some issues he has, but what Marth has works completely fine. He doesn't really have any matchups where he heavily loses, and even though he lacks a projectile, he doesn't struggle against them too much as he has a combination of a decently sized stature and good mobility. His moves are not exploitable any more, but are still very quick to come out, and have relatively decent endlag (though landing lag is higher). Marth's moves are very safe when spaced correctly. This video is a prime example of Marth spacing correctly and how safe it is...

Marth also has one of the best off stage games. With Fair and Bair being great off stage. Thanks to a combination of good double jump, average fall speed, decent air speed and high reaching fast recovery move, Marth can head off stage and pressure the opponent and make it back in almost any situation, especially with the removal of edge hogging. He doesn't even need to head off stage in some cases. Characters like Duck Hunt for example he can stay on the ledge and Bair them or Fair/Dolphin Slash them into the stage. Of course Marth (and Lucina) have great kill power, with Marth being able to finish stocks off at 35% with a tipper (Lucina at around 75-ish). Even so, with no tipper, Fsmash still kills at relatively reasonable percents, such as 100%.

As for Lucina, I fail to see how lacking a tipper though makes her a whole tier worse than Marth. I believe that Marth is mid tier, and Lucina is not different enough from him to be separated by lots of spaces. She can do everything the same as Marth, but just has to work a bit harder for it. Even then, her kill power for example is still better than most of the cast.

In fact, a lot of professional players still believe Marth is viable. I have heard ZeRo say he is, and if I remember correctly ESAM put Marth at the top of mid tier on his tier list (I disagree with that though, I don't think Marth should be any higher than near the middle).

I have put a lot of time into Marth. I know his advantages and disadvantages. I am determined to make him shine in spite of his short comings. Even though I usually go Rosalina>Mario>Marth>Samus in terms of how good I am with them, the game says that I have used Marth the second most (with Rosalina being my most used). If I am honest, I enjoy using Marth more than Mario, but there is no denying Mario is just better.

besides, marth is the ultimate waifu...

>Zelda above Dedede

Bruh, no.

Hmm, I suppose that is a good point...

I always find that Dedede loses to Zelda. Whether or not that is true or not is debatable, but Dedede probably loses fewer matchups than Zelda...

I might change it. You however, make Dedede look like a solid Mid Tier

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm, I suppose that is a good point...

I always find that Dedede loses to Zelda. Whether or not that is true or not is debatable, but Dedede probably loses fewer matchups than Zelda...

I might change it. You however, make Dedede look like a solid Mid Tier

Dedede does lose to Zelda since he can't really do much to her when in close-quarters combat, and Zelda' up tilt and Nayru's Love beat Gordos. She can also edgeguard Dedede for free. Whenever Zelda has the chance to get in, you better say goodbye to your stock. Both characters have no approach whatsoever so the matchup is just making little pokes at one another, I hate it lol

But with that said, even though Dedede has a very weak matchup spread it's definitely better than Zelda's. Here's my personal MU spread for Dedede, if you're wondering.

also yoooo, thanks for the compliment <3

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Well that's a little debatable, for all we know They could be nearly the same or maybe even Zeldas is better, but I won't argue, so don't mind me much.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Fortunately for Zelda, she has a reflector, and her projectile can't be used against her. Dedede lacks any reflecting moves, and his only projectile is very inconvenient in that just about anyone can use the Gordos against Dedede if they hit the Gordo just right.

 

[aεrgiα]

Dedede does lose to Zelda since he can't really do much to her when in close-quarters combat, and Zelda' up tilt and Nayru's Love beat Gordos. She can also edgeguard Dedede for free. Whenever Zelda has the chance to get in, you better say goodbye to your stock. Both characters have no approach whatsoever so the matchup is just making little pokes at one another, I hate it lol

But with that said, even though Dedede has a very weak matchup spread it's definitely better than Zelda's. Here's my personal MU spread for Dedede, if you're wondering.

also yoooo, thanks for the compliment <3

i know this isnt the right place to taalk about it, but im curious about ur mu spread, i agree for the most part but theres three things i dont get, how does d3 beat pacman? i find his zoning game to be very difficult to beat and he has very fast moves such as fair and nair to easily send back gordos and in general, pac can force d3 to approach and d3 cant approach, in the same vein: lucas? d3 is good combo vid material, lucas can zone out d3 with zair and pk fire and he also has no trouble killing in this mu imo :/ i mean i havnt played a lucas as d3 or vice versa but... what am i missing? and lastly doc, why do u have doc positive and mario negative(i mean i understand mario being negative ofc) sure doc doesnt combo d3 as hard but hes still got that stupidly good nair, pills are a pain, he can kill even easier than mario, i dunno i dont see it, please enlighten me

also

You have to admit though, its great to see the lower tier characters having a passionate player base. It's these sort of people who when they do eventually get buffed, will be labbing and pushing the characters as hard as possible. It's great.

But I get what you are saying about lower tier characters. For example, Samus is one of my secondaries. She is one for a reason, as she just isn't fantastic (I think top of the low tier). When I go on about Samus, I try to show that she is not the worst character in the game, but I know in her current state she would struggle in a national level, which is why she is a secondary, and why I main Rosalina and Mario. To be fair, at least Samus has results and evidence/combos etc to back her up, unlike characters like Jigglypuff.

In fact, I might create an early impressions 1.1.3 tier list...

Here are my first impressions on 1.1.3. This is just for fun, and it is not reliable yet, as the patch is just settling in. Nonetheless...

Top)
High)
Low High)
Mid)
Low Mid)
Low)
Bottom)

Just a few notes about this...

• I usually put Ness in the High tier. But after reconsidering his abysmal matchup with Rosalina, I just felt that he should be top of Low High.
• I also feel Greninja and Toon Link deserve Low High places, results or not. Greninja gets a lot of sh** but is still very good, and I feel Toon Link is slept on highly, especially considering the things he can do with Bombs.
• I placed Cloud at the top of Mid for now. I don't think he is any lower at this point in time. However, give him a month or so to settle in and that opinion is open to change.
• Bowser, I placed near the top Low Mid. I feel there is potential for him to go up to Mid Tier, but just to be safe, I placed him there, because he still struggles against projectiles etc.
• Samus and Mewtwo are now near the bottom of Low Mid, due to various buffs and metagame developments.
• I placed Little Mac in Low tier. Now I am not ignoring his insanely good ground game. I just feel at top level where there is more than just FD, and players know how to exploit and mindgame him, I just feel he is outclassed. Also, no input lag.
• Zelda, Sword, Dedede, Palutena and Gunner were tough to order for me, so they are all very similar by my standards.
• Brawler and Jigglypuff are definitely my choices to go in Bottom tier.

my main gripe with this is cloud, i think hes too high, and while i can see mid (maybe) i dont think hes better than oli or lucario. contrary to you i think he isnt any higher than this, i just think hes held back by his limit break too much(i know this sounds odd but i can explain if u want(i did mention it a bit the last couple of pages)) other than that i think brawler is the worst but thats being extremely picky, i think megaman should be a bit higher and ike could also move up a few spaces. overall it looks solid to me as for the first part, imo as a low tier main its easy to fall into a self fulfilling prophecy if u overdo it with depreciating your own character so i think overall, while it can be annoying when they blab on about how amaing the character is(and with this i mean past the level of healthy discussion, and on the level of stubbornly ignoring any counterarguments), i think its better for the metagame if lowtier mains overestimate their character than the other way around

 

[Bowserboy3]

i know this isnt the right place to taalk about it, but im curious about ur mu spread, i agree for the most part but theres three things i dont get, how does d3 beat pacman? i find his zoning game to be very difficult to beat and he has very fast moves such as fair and nair to easily send back gordos and in general, pac can force d3 to approach and d3 cant approach, in the same vein: lucas? d3 is good combo vid material, lucas can zone out d3 with zair and pk fire and he also has no trouble killing in this mu imo :/ i mean i havnt played a lucas as d3 or vice versa but... what am i missing? and lastly doc, why do u have doc positive and mario negative(i mean i understand mario being negative ofc) sure doc doesnt combo d3 as hard but hes still got that stupidly good nair, pills are a pain, he can kill even easier than mario, i dunno i dont see it, please enlighten me

also

my main gripe with this is cloud, i think hes too high, and while i can see mid (maybe) i dont think hes better than oli or lucario. contrary to you i think he isnt any higher than this, i just think hes held back by his limit break too much(i know this sounds odd but i can explain if u want(i did mention it a bit the last couple of pages)) other than that i think brawler is the worst but thats being extremely picky, i think megaman should be a bit higher and ike could also move up a few spaces. overall it looks solid to me as for the first part, imo as a low tier main its easy to fall into a self fulfilling prophecy if u overdo it with depreciating your own character so i think overall, while it can be annoying when they blab on about how amaing the character is(and with this i mean past the level of healthy discussion, and on the level of stubbornly ignoring any counterarguments), i think its better for the metagame if lowtier mains overestimate their character than the other way around

I just put Cloud at the top of Mid Tier. I don't think he is anywhere lower than there as of this moment in time (3 days in right?), but of course that is open to change. Besides, seeing as I just put Cloud in there, I suppose I could place him anywhere in Mid Tier. It's just a placeholder really.

 

[Deleted member]

i know this isnt the right place to taalk about it, but im curious about ur mu spread, i agree for the most part but theres three things i dont get, how does d3 beat pacman? i find his zoning game to be very difficult to beat and he has very fast moves such as fair and nair to easily send back gordos and in general, pac can force d3 to approach and d3 cant approach, in the same vein: lucas? d3 is good combo vid material, lucas can zone out d3 with zair and pk fire and he also has no trouble killing in this mu imo :/ i mean i havnt played a lucas as d3 or vice versa but... what am i missing? and lastly doc, why do u have doc positive and mario negative(i mean i understand mario being negative ofc) sure doc doesnt combo d3 as hard but hes still got that stupidly good nair, pills are a pain, he can kill even easier than mario, i dunno i dont see it, please enlighten me

Dedede slightly edges out Pac to me, and as somebody who fights a friend fairly ofyen who gets top placements at Aussie locals with Pac-Man I've got good experience in the MU. Yes, Pac-Man's combo game is very effective against Dedede, but Dedede has three important tolls that keep him cool in the matchup: back air, forward tilt, and his down throw combos. He can also edgeguard Pac reasonably well, especially since his two recovery methods are very predictable. Dedede is also one of the characters who has the easiest time dealing with hydrant, and in some cases the water can propel him upwards and it can help him perform rising aerials at higher distance than regularly. It's situational, but something.

Lucas does have trouble killing in the Dedede MU, considering down smash and up smash are laggy and forward smash is pretty weak when it's not tippered. He can zone Dedede out with zair and PK Fire like you said, but like the Pac MU Lucas has little answer to shield pressure done by properly spaced bairs and ftilts. Though considering he actually has a good grab now, I'd need to reevaluate this MU by fighting more Lucas players.

Doc is a win for Dedede due to his worse mobility overall compared to Mario, and Dedede edgeguards Doc for free almost thanks to his poor offstage game. You just have to keep Doc out of your range and try not to be in CQC as much as possible, or you'll get destroyed.

 

[aεrgiα]

Dedede slightly edges out Pac to me, and as somebody who fights a friend fairly ofyen who gets top placements at Aussie locals with Pac-Man I've got good experience in the MU. Yes, Pac-Man's combo game is very effective against Dedede, but Dedede has three important tolls that keep him cool in the matchup: back air, forward tilt, and his down throw combos. He can also edgeguard Pac reasonably well, especially since his two recovery methods are very predictable. Dedede is also one of the characters who has the easiest time dealing with hydrant, and in some cases the water can propel him upwards and it can help him perform rising aerials at higher distance than regularly. It's situational, but something.

Lucas does have trouble killing in the Dedede MU, considering down smash and up smash are laggy and forward smash is pretty weak when it's not tippered. He can zone Dedede out with zair and PK Fire like you said, but like the Pac MU Lucas has little answer to shield pressure done by properly spaced bairs and ftilts. Though considering he actually has a good grab now, I'd need to reevaluate this MU by fighting more Lucas players.

Doc is a win for Dedede due to his worse mobility overall compared to Mario, and Dedede edgeguards Doc for free almost thanks to his poor offstage game. You just have to keep Doc out of your range and try not to be in CQC as much as possible, or you'll get destroyed.

hmm thanks for that, since i have very little(no) pac experience thats good to know incase i ever do need to play vs a good pac main, for doc i can see where youre coming from, especially on the offstage part so ill concede ;p. for lucas, in that sense, the grab buff wont change anything since it didnt get any faster(unless im missing something? i looked at the patch notes early on but i havnt looked to see if anythings changed :/ ) so oos grabs arent any better than before, so the options are still the same, except for nair got better(i havnt tested but shouldnt it deflect gordos now even with the multi hit?) :/ either way i was looking at pre patch lucas anyway since ur mu chart was prepatch too i guess lucas is the one i cant agree on though :/ i mean usmash and dsmash are laggy, but theyre laggy in any mu, and tbh usmash especially isnt something to count on in any mu. his sourspot on fsmash does 1% less and the knockback difference isnt significantly large either. he can pk thunder at the edge for an edgeguard too, like ness or go offstage too, unlike ness, where he has some dangerous tools the reason why i think he has no particular trouble killing d3 is because of his aerials and throws, uair does have a small hitbox yes but with d3s low aerial mobility and his sub par landing options killing d3 for it is definitely possible, i would hope i dont have to elaborate on lucas amazing throw game, but d3 cant pressure lucas enough to avoid grabs, though ftilt is a problem, and certain setups work on him; dtilt to grab and tether to grab(although this one is riskier) are very hard for d3 to avoid due to, well lack of an "escape option", catching a landing with it is also once again possible.(on a side note dtilt is close to guaranteed at high percents on other chars too so its not d3 specific) i dont know, i can see this mu even at best but i see where u are coming from and its definitely not rosa ness mu since lucas has his issues too(although 2 of them got "fixed" this patch so yay ) also,

...

*cough* *cough*

I'll never understand why the Japanese see him as mid-tier. He has so many issues yet he's been ignored patch after patch. Sigh.

there is hope we may get buffs before the end of patches, in the last japanese tier lists i saw he was actually in the bottom two tiers, so even they are starting to see that hes not as good as they thought(i hope so at least but i wouldnt be surprised if the next shi-g tierlist places him as a solid mid tier and destroys all dreams TT_TT... though a puff buff is long overdue if we're going exclusively by tierlists :/ )

 

[Xandercosm]

You could call it main bias, but in all honesty it isn't. Marth and Lucina are near enough smack bang in the middle of the list, and unless they get any more buffs, that is where I think they belong. Marth is a solid character. Unfortunately he is held back from being any higher due to some issues he has, but what Marth has works completely fine. He doesn't really have any matchups where he heavily loses, and even though he lacks a projectile, he doesn't struggle against them too much as he has a combination of a decently sized stature and good mobility. His moves are not exploitable any more, but are still very quick to come out, and have relatively decent endlag (though landing lag is higher). Marth's moves are very safe when spaced correctly. This video is a prime example of Marth spacing correctly and how safe it is...

Marth also has one of the best off stage games. With Fair and Bair being great off stage. Thanks to a combination of good double jump, average fall speed, decent air speed and high reaching fast recovery move, Marth can head off stage and pressure the opponent and make it back in almost any situation, especially with the removal of edge hogging. He doesn't even need to head off stage in some cases. Characters like Duck Hunt for example he can stay on the ledge and Bair them or Fair/Dolphin Slash them into the stage. Of course Marth (and Lucina) have great kill power, with Marth being able to finish stocks off at 35% with a tipper (Lucina at around 75-ish). Even so, with no tipper, Fsmash still kills at relatively reasonable percents, such as 100%.

As for Lucina, I fail to see how lacking a tipper though makes her a whole tier worse than Marth. I believe that Marth is mid tier, and Lucina is not different enough from him to be separated by lots of spaces. She can do everything the same as Marth, but just has to work a bit harder for it. Even then, her kill power for example is still better than most of the cast.

In fact, a lot of professional players still believe Marth is viable. I have heard ZeRo say he is, and if I remember correctly ESAM put Marth at the top of mid tier on his tier list (I disagree with that though, I don't think Marth should be any higher than near the middle).

I have put a lot of time into Marth. I know his advantages and disadvantages. I am determined to make him shine in spite of his short comings. Even though I usually go Rosalina>Mario>Marth>Samus in terms of how good I am with them, the game says that I have used Marth the second most (with Rosalina being my most used). If I am honest, I enjoy using Marth more than Mario, but there is no denying Mario is just better.

besides, marth is the ultimate waifu...

Marth just seems so utterly underwhelming. As someone once said quite accurately, Cloud is fast and has a gigantic blade, Marth is laggy and has a toothpick. As for Lucina, I don't know much about her, but the highest I've ever seen her is bottom 20. Usually she's bottom 10.

 

[Deleted member]

Marth just seems so utterly underwhelming. As someone once said quite accurately, Cloud is fast and has a gigantic blade, Marth is laggy and has a toothpick. As for Lucina, I don't know much about her, but the highest I've ever seen her is bottom 20. Usually she's bottom 10.

Speed isn't everything. Even then, Marth isn't laggy and Marth's range is very long. If I recall correctly, Bowserboy3 once said something about some of his moves having longer range in SSB4 than Brawl. Cloud, has a bad recovery, bad grabs, and lacks kill setups. Marth has these flaws too, but it's too early to decide that one character is undisputedly better than the other.

As for Lucina, she's an objectively worse version of Marth. You'll hear some people say that Lucina can rushdown better and deal with CQC better, but this is simply not true. Marth's non-tippered moves are more safe on shield than Lucina's sword moves. As a result, Marth actually can rushdown and deal with CQC better than Lucina.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Marth is laggy and has a toothpick..

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

And while on the subject of Marth and Cloud, unfortunately whoever told you this is clearly misinformed. It seems that Marth and Cloud's grounf moves have opposites, in that if one character's comes out quicker, it also ends later too. However, aside from Nair, all of Marth's aerials come out much quicker, and end quicker than Clouds too. And aside from Bair, all of Marth's aerials also have less landing lag, so I wouldn't call that laggy when comparing to Cloud.

Besides, Cloud and Marth have completely different playstyles. Marth is far less punishable than Cloud, especially when tipped, and has much greater recovery (minus Limit Break) and zoning prowess. Marth can wall out most characters effectively. Cloud has more combo potential, and good pressuring ability, but also a lesser off stage game. Comparing Cloud to Marth is an odd decision.

Back to Lucina, the best reason I can find is to state a quote by Joseph Goebbels...

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it".

Back when the 3DS came out (when both Marth and Lucina were both admittedly quite bad), people instanly assumed that no tipper made Lucina bad. In fact, some people still don't realise that Lucina's blade actually does solid damage, and that it is just Marth's blade with no tipper (I can back this up. Quite a few pages back somebody claimed that Lucina's Fsmash could only kill at about 120% because it is just a sourspot). It's hard to explain her, because if you don't play Marth, then you won't understand why Lucina is actually very similar to him. I use Marth but use Lucina occasionally, but it's really no different to playing Marth at all. Just no early kills or gimps.

As for Lucina, she's an objectively worse version of Marth

This is true. However, it does not mean she is a bad character because of it.

To sum up, Marth and Lucina play virtually exactly the same and all of Marth's positive traits (minus tipper) transfer over to Lucina. Of course, she just has to swing her sword a few more times before she can net a kill, but even then it is earlier than most of the cast.

Regarding safety of moves, the shield stun changes actually finally make Lucina's moves more safe on shield than Marth's sour moves. This doesn't change a huge deal bewteen them though, as the tipper is far more safe anyway.

 

[aεrgiα]

This is true. However, it does not mean she is a bad character because of it.

To sum up, Marth and Lucina play virtually exactly the same and all of Marth's positive traits (minus tipper) transfer over to Lucina. Of course, she just has to swing her sword a few more times before she can net a kill, but even then it is earlier than most of the cast.

Regarding safety of moves, the shield stun changes actually finally make Lucina's moves more safe on shield than Marth's sour moves. This doesn't change a huge deal bewteen them though, as the tipper is far more safe anyway.

first off, i will repeat again that i find the whole logic of x is better so y is bad one of the most idiotic statements ever so i definitely agree that this doesnt make her bad, and secondly, im not too sure whether marth is even objectively better, i believe browny said he thinks lucina is better than marth in one of the last voting phases, and ive heard some marth mains say that they prefer using lucina in certain mus because its not possible to consitantly get the tipper, i dont like saying things like objectively worse, because its something thats very hard to prove, and i can think of a lot of situations where i would prefer lucinas no tipper sword over marths tipper. and while rushdown is not her domain in any case due to the existence of roy, maybe someone has some weird mix of semi rushdown mixed with spacing playstyle where lucina does better than marth, ofc the tipper vs the non tipper is arguably in marths favour but, especially considering theres still a lot we dont know about the game i dont like saying things like objectively :/ (and no this isnt directed at u specifically but rather im saying this generally) for example, while its definitely not something that makes lucina better than marth, lucinas true combo of nair(first hit) into utilt kills around ~10% earlier than marths does, is this game changing? no but who know what other things havnt been discovered that could potentially give her an edge over marth? also i was gonna ask about that last thing since i had heard that too, thanks for (preemptively) answering my question

 

[Xandercosm]

Speed isn't everything. Even then, Marth isn't laggy and Marth's range is very long. If I recall correctly, Bowserboy3 once said something about some of his moves having longer range in SSB4 than Brawl. Cloud, has a bad recovery, bad grabs, and lacks kill setups. Marth has these flaws too, but it's too early to decide that one character is undisputedly better than the other.

As for Lucina, she's an objectively worse version of Marth. You'll hear some people say that Lucina can rushdown better and deal with CQC better, but this is simply not true. Marth's non-tippered moves are more safe on shield than Lucina's sword moves. As a result, Marth actually can rushdown and deal with CQC better than Lucina.

Well, actually, in my opinion, both of them are bad. Cloud is probably slightly better than Marth, though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

first off, i will repeat again that i find the whole logic of x is better so y is bad one of the most idiotic statements ever so i definitely agree that this doesnt make her bad, and secondly, im not too sure whether marth is even objectively better, i believe browny said he thinks lucina is better than marth in one of the last voting phases, and ive heard some marth mains say that they prefer using lucina in certain mus because its not possible to consitantly get the tipper, i dont like saying things like objectively worse, because its something thats very hard to prove, and i can think of a lot of situations where i would prefer lucinas no tipper sword over marths tipper. and while rushdown is not her domain in any case due to the existence of roy, maybe someone has some weird mix of semi rushdown mixed with spacing playstyle where lucina does better than marth, ofc the tipper vs the non tipper is arguably in marths favour but, especially considering theres still a lot we dont know about the game i dont like saying things like objectively :/ (and no this isnt directed at u specifically but rather im saying this generally) for example, while its definitely not something that makes lucina better than marth, lucinas true combo of nair(first hit) into utilt kills around ~10% earlier than marths does, is this game changing? no but who know what other things havnt been discovered that could potentially give her an edge over marth? also i was gonna ask about that last thing since i had heard that too, thanks for (preemptively) answering my question

There are a couple of matchups where Lucina fairs slightly better than Marth, but Marth still does better in nearly all matchups that Lucina. For example, occasionally I will go Lucina against Pikachu. Though Marth doesn't objectively lose (he does have a disadvantage), Lucina still struggles with Pikachu, but has an easier time against him. I can also assure you that a good Marth player will land at least 75% of his tippers (not counting Smashes) in most situations. It is just learning to space. I generally always land tipper Fair, tipper Ftilt, tipper Nair etc when attempting to.

That is something. Nair 1 into Up Tilt for Lucina still isn't that great, especially when Up Throw is an option just a few percent later. But Marth does have things that Lucina cannot do. For example, Jab 1 into Tipper Fsmash. The Dancing Blade changes in Patch 1.1.3 allow Marth to now be able to in some cases go from Down 3 into tipper side 4, which can kill near the edge at about 70%. Lucina cannot do this. Finally, Marth's tipper Nair (2nd hit) is the most powerful Nair in the game if I remember correctly. This move kills at the edge at about 90% if fresh, even less with Rage. So though Lucina has that Up Tilt thing that kills a bit earlier than Marth can, Marth has a lot more options that he can kill way earlier than Lucina. This is compensated by Lucina having above average Smashes. Lucina's Jab into Fsmash is also slightly more reliable than Marth's too. Lucina also has a better shield breaker in reality, as it is hard to perfectly space a tipper shield breaker in neutral or when battling it out on the stage. Lucina certainly is not completely outclassed by Marth, she is still very good.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Lucina's fsmash is overpowered.

 

[aεrgiα]

There are a couple of matchups where Lucina fairs slightly better than Marth, but Marth still does better in nearly all matchups that Lucina. For example, occasionally I will go Lucina against Pikachu. Though Marth doesn't objectively lose (he does have a disadvantage), Lucina still struggles with Pikachu, but has an easier time against him. I can also assure you that a good Marth player will land at least 75% of his tippers (not counting Smashes) in most situations. It is just learning to space. I generally always land tipper Fair, tipper Ftilt, tipper Nair etc when attempting to.

That is something. Nair 1 into Up Tilt for Lucina still isn't that great, especially when Up Throw is an option just a few percent later. But Marth does have things that Lucina cannot do. For example, Jab 1 into Tipper Fsmash. The Dancing Blade changes in Patch 1.1.3 allow Marth to now be able to in some cases go from Down 3 into tipper side 4, which can kill near the edge at about 70%. Lucina cannot do this. Finally, Marth's tipper Nair (2nd hit) is the most powerful Nair in the game if I remember correctly. This move kills at the edge at about 90% if fresh, even less with Rage. So though Lucina has that Up Tilt thing that kills a bit earlier than Marth can, Marth has a lot more options that he can kill way earlier than Lucina. This is compensated by Lucina having above average Smashes. Lucina's Jab into Fsmash is also slightly more reliable than Marth's too. Lucina also has a better shield breaker in reality, as it is hard to perfectly space a tipper shield breaker in neutral or when battling it out on the stage. Lucina certainly is not completely outclassed by Marth, she is still very good.

oh i meant consitantly get the tipper in those specific mu, i mean even i can pretty consitently land the tipper with fair jab and ftilt in the "normal mus" for lack of a better name for it and i dont even play marth (marth is my 44th most used char). and for the second part yes, i mean add on the fact that first hit of nair isnt safe as far as im aware(unless that changed with 1.1.1?) so it a commitment to go for it too, so its definitely not amazing, but its something and ive caught a few people off guard with it when playing lucina(who i dont use that much either except for "friendlies" or fg)

Edit: also yes marth is bae, second only to jiggs whos waifu number one

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Marth just seems so utterly underwhelming. As someone once said quite accurately, Cloud is fast and has a gigantic blade, Marth is laggy and has a toothpick. As for Lucina, I don't know much about her, but the highest I've ever seen her is bottom 20. Usually she's bottom 10.

Basically, Lucina is a more balanced Marth in that none of her attacks require sweetspots to be effective. This does work both ways, however, since Marth's tipped hits pack a bigger punch than all of Lucina's attacks.

In a way, Lucina is mostly a beginner type of fighter, while Marth is more advanced.

 

[aεrgiα]

also didnt the wrong peron get warned? i thought it was kurogane that wasnt allowed to be linked?(for what ever reason) o.O
also, isnt lucinas grounded usmash stronger due to the tipper mechanic too? not that it makes much difference overall, im curious though

 

[Xandercosm]

Basically, Lucina is a more balanced Marth in that none of her attacks require sweetspots to be effective. This does work both ways, however, since Marth's tipped hits pack a bigger punch than all of Lucina's attacks.

In a way, Lucina is mostly a beginner type of fighter, while Marth is more advanced.

Which is exactly why Lucina is worse than Marth.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

also didnt the wrong peron get warned? i thought it was kurogane that wasnt allowed to be linked?(for what ever reason) o.O

I'm pretty sure normal members are allowed to link to my website, the admins just have a cry when I, specifically, do it.

It's part of the hate boner against me that like, 3 of the admins have, the rest of Smashboards staff are super chill and cool about it.

 

[aεrgiα]

holy crap, the nair buff is amazing, i just took a roys stock in 3 grabs, im gonna have to go check whether its a true combo or not but damn(nothing but 3 grabs and the follow ups), grabed him, short hop nair-> nairplane across the stage, finished it with a uair, (did something like ~73%) then dthrow(got in around 3-4 pummels) to dair(he teched so i got no followups after) then finally dthrow(with some pummels) to bair(this he didnt tech) to uair for the kill... i mean ofc the sh nair follow up from dthrow only works on very few characters but damn! i dont know whether it was badly reacted on his part, and whether he could have avoided it, im gonna have to test that but even if its not unavoidable(baring the missed tech on the bair) that makes messing up really scary, especially when u dont know what to expect(this guy definitely wasnt that bad of a player, not amazing but decent)... this patch is going to be fun and i think lucas now deserves the spot he has on this list he has issues but... damn, just damn, theres not much more i can say, im speechless o.O

 

[Xandercosm]

I'm pretty sure normal members are allowed to link to my website, the admins just have a cry when I, specifically, do it.

It's part of the hate boner against me that like, 3 of the admins have, the rest of Smashboards staff are super chill and cool about it.

You poor, poor thing. You don't deserve any warnings. Without you, how would we know anyone's frame data? *sniff*

 

[Routa]

#InKuroganeHammerWeTrust

 

[Bedoop]

FINAL Version 2.30, November 14

3:

Today I can (metaphorically) die happy.

>Zelda above Dedede

Bruh, no.

>ZELDA
>Above DEDEDE

I think I hear some jestin'

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You poor, poor thing. You don't deserve any warnings. Without you, how would we know anyone's frame data? *sniff*

The main problem more has to do with the fact that his guides at each character sub-forum only contained links to his website. That's why they were removed by the administrators.

 

[Xandercosm]

The main problem more has to do with the fact that his guides at each character sub-forum only contained links to his website. That's why they were removed by the administrators.

Yeah, yeah. I know. You goldurned nasty rotten admins...

 

[TMNTSSB4]

So Earth's Pit won a tournament, beating RanaI to win 1st place...the dream continues

The main problem more has to do with the fact that his guides at each character sub-forum only contained links to his website. That's why they were removed by the administrators.

I'm not sure whether that's good, reasonable and smart or bad and stupidly...stupid.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm not sure whether that's good, reasonable and smart or bad and stupidly...stupid.

Frankly, it makes very little sense to be making duplicate threads. Every guide had one thing in common, which was linking a user to someone's website; something like that can just be done with a single thread, which is at the competitive discussion forum.

http://smashboards.com/threads/421541/

 

[Xandercosm]

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

And while on the subject of Marth and Cloud, unfortunately whoever told you this is clearly misinformed. It seems that Marth and Cloud's grounf moves have opposites, in that if one character's comes out quicker, it also ends later too. However, aside from Nair, all of Marth's aerials come out much quicker, and end quicker than Clouds too. And aside from Bair, all of Marth's aerials also have less landing lag, so I wouldn't call that laggy when comparing to Cloud.

Besides, Cloud and Marth have completely different playstyles. Marth is far less punishable than Cloud, especially when tipped, and has much greater recovery (minus Limit Break) and zoning prowess. Marth can wall out most characters effectively. Cloud has more combo potential, and good pressuring ability, but also a lesser off stage game. Comparing Cloud to Marth is an odd decision.

Back to Lucina, the best reason I can find is to state a quote by Joseph Goebbels...

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it".

Back when the 3DS came out (when both Marth and Lucina were both admittedly quite bad), people instanly assumed that no tipper made Lucina bad. In fact, some people still don't realise that Lucina's blade actually does solid damage, and that it is just Marth's blade with no tipper (I can back this up. Quite a few pages back somebody claimed that Lucina's Fsmash could only kill at about 120% because it is just a sourspot). It's hard to explain her, because if you don't play Marth, then you won't understand why Lucina is actually very similar to him. I use Marth but use Lucina occasionally, but it's really no different to playing Marth at all. Just no early kills or gimps.


This is true. However, it does not mean she is a bad character because of it.

To sum up, Marth and Lucina play virtually exactly the same and all of Marth's positive traits (minus tipper) transfer over to Lucina. Of course, she just has to swing her sword a few more times before she can net a kill, but even then it is earlier than most of the cast.

Regarding safety of moves, the shield stun changes actually finally make Lucina's moves more safe on shield than Marth's sour moves. This doesn't change a huge deal bewteen them though, as the tipper is far more safe anyway.

Why were you warned for this post?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm not sure whether that's good, reasonable and smart or bad and stupidly...stupid.

A very large majority of people agree it's the latter.

Frankly, it makes very little sense to be making duplicate threads. Every guide had one thing in common, which was linking a user to someone's website; something like that can just be done with a single thread, which is at the competitive discussion forum.

http://smashboards.com/threads/421541/

You know that isn't the reason because they unstuck it and were going to lock that one too.

This is getting off topic tho, so we should move on.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

A very large majority of people agree it's the latter.



You know that isn't the reason because they unstuck it and were going to lock that one too.

This is getting off topic tho, so we should move on.

I guess I'm one of those people who agree with you(ya had sum great info on dat Pitty Patter)

 

[aεrgiα]

Why were you warned for this post?

probably something stupid like quoting goebbels... as i see no single wrong thing with that post:/

 

[Wintermelon43]

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

And while on the subject of Marth and Cloud, unfortunately whoever told you this is clearly misinformed. It seems that Marth and Cloud's grounf moves have opposites, in that if one character's comes out quicker, it also ends later too. However, aside from Nair, all of Marth's aerials come out much quicker, and end quicker than Clouds too. And aside from Bair, all of Marth's aerials also have less landing lag, so I wouldn't call that laggy when comparing to Cloud.

Besides, Cloud and Marth have completely different playstyles. Marth is far less punishable than Cloud, especially when tipped, and has much greater recovery (minus Limit Break) and zoning prowess. Marth can wall out most characters effectively. Cloud has more combo potential, and good pressuring ability, but also a lesser off stage game. Comparing Cloud to Marth is an odd decision.

Back to Lucina, the best reason I can find is to state a quote by Joseph Goebbels...

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it".

Back when the 3DS came out (when both Marth and Lucina were both admittedly quite bad), people instanly assumed that no tipper made Lucina bad. In fact, some people still don't realise that Lucina's blade actually does solid damage, and that it is just Marth's blade with no tipper (I can back this up. Quite a few pages back somebody claimed that Lucina's Fsmash could only kill at about 120% because it is just a sourspot). It's hard to explain her, because if you don't play Marth, then you won't understand why Lucina is actually very similar to him. I use Marth but use Lucina occasionally, but it's really no different to playing Marth at all. Just no early kills or gimps.


This is true. However, it does not mean she is a bad character because of it.

To sum up, Marth and Lucina play virtually exactly the same and all of Marth's positive traits (minus tipper) transfer over to Lucina. Of course, she just has to swing her sword a few more times before she can net a kill, but even then it is earlier than most of the cast.

Regarding safety of moves, the shield stun changes actually finally make Lucina's moves more safe on shield than Marth's sour moves. This doesn't change a huge deal bewteen them though, as the tipper is far more safe anyway.

I rhink he posted the thread for Marth's Kuroganehammer page, which resulted in an infraction.

 

[aεrgiα]

I rhink he posted the thread for Marth's Kuroganehammer page, which resulted in an infraction.

thats the thing... he didnt link kurogane... also thats what i asked at first(since it was the post above his which contained the link to the site and i thought there was a mistake due to that) but its apparently not worthy of an infraction for standard users so yeah...

 

[Xandercosm]

Hmm... Weird. I don't understand why linking to another site is such a bad thing...

Speaking of that, I just checked out your site, KuroganeHammer . It's freaking awesome. There's a wealth of information there. I think that's something every competitive Smash fan has to check out.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Hmm... Weird. I don't understand why linking to another site is such a bad thing...

Speaking of that, I just checked out your site, KuroganeHammer . It's freaking awesome. There's a wealth of information there. I think that's something every competitive Smash fan has to check out.

It really is useful

 

[Furret24]

thats the thing... he didnt link kurogane... also thats what i asked at first(since it was the post above his which contained the link to the site and i thought there was a mistake due to that) but its apparently not worthy of an infraction for standard users so yeah...

Could we note that that post was edited by moderator? Maybe he/she had linked to it before it was edited.

That's all I got. :/ We should start focusing on something else now.


Anyone got some predictions for the balance patch coming in February?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Could we note that that post was edited by moderator? Maybe he/she had linked to it before it was edited.

That's all I got. :/ We should start focusing on something else now.


Anyone got some predictions for the balance patch coming in February?

Jigglypuff won't be buffed. And the rebellion will start. And there will be a mockingpuff

 

[Xandercosm]

Could we note that that post was edited by moderator? Maybe he/she had linked to it before it was edited.

That's all I got. :/ We should start focusing on something else now.


Anyone got some predictions for the balance patch coming in February?

Cloud will be nerfed. Jigglypuff will still be garbage. Zelda will still be garbage. Ganondorf will have 1 less frame of landing lag on one of his aerials. Sheik will be buffed.

Sorry for the double-post, but, as a side note, I still think Shrek will be a last minute reveal. Who's with me?