Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Xandercosm]

It was never 7 seconds. It used to be 8 and then got changed to 13 in 1.0.4, which I find reasonable. While Rosaluma is definitely my least favorite character to play against/with, I will adimit that she isn't the best character in the game (which goes to Sheik).

Top tier characters don't have to be broken by the way. Just look at 64 Pikachu or Brawl Diddy.

I heard somewhere it was 7 seconds. I guess I just feel like she isn't a very well balanced characters, though. That's all.

 

[Furret24]

I heard somewhere it was 7 seconds. I guess I just feel like she isn't a very well balanced characters, though. That's all.

I'd recommend checking your sources before making a statement like saying how Rosalina is broken. :|

 

[Bowserboy3]

As a Rosalina main, I'll just add my two cents into this.

I feel that she is certainly top tier, atleast within the top 6 boundaries. The fact that Rosalina actually has disadvantage points, and loses a couple of matchups however makes her far more balanced than the other top tiers. She needs no more nerfs what so ever. Any more nerfs on Rosalina would be proof that Sakurai is sucking up the casuals, especially when characters like Sheik need a nerf far more. Rosalina hasn't even won a tournament IIRC for at least 6 months, maybe even more. There is no doubt she is a great character with combos and exploitable options, but she herself has an exploitable state.

Also, she is incredibly hard to use correctly and master. She's my main, but I haven't mastered her so to speak yet. There are still things I could be doing better every day.

 

[Wintermelon43]

..no, its not the amount of changes that counts its what they actually change that counts... and well, going through patch notes so i dont say something stupid, patch 1.0.4 -> mainly nerfs with a few buffs, i found no rosa changes for 1.0.5, 1.0.6 ->lumas health decreased, thats it. found nothing for 1.0.7... 1.0.8 -> buffed lumas hp and nerfed jabs kb. 1.0.9 -> no gameplay changes. 1.1.0-> rosa stayed the same. 1.1.1 ->multi jab got a small damage nerf(0.3%). 1.1.2 -> no changes really. 1.1.3-> no changes to rosa. so since patch 1.0.4 rosa got luma hp decreased, which got increased later again, for a total change of -2 hp(?), jabs knockback got decreased a small amount, still kills(and is still one of the best jabs in the game), and muti jab damage got decreased by a small amount... so yeah, i completely agree, she got nerfed into oblivion over the course of all the patches... NOT! patch 1.0.4 hit her hard, but thats a single patch, the others are nothing gamebreaking... im 100% sure any rosa main would, if given the choice, take all the nerfs from patch 1.0.5 to 1.1.3 over taking only the nerfs from 1.0.4-> yep its the amount of patches that counts right??? anyway we both agree that rosa doesnt need nerfs so i wont coment on the part about people complaining about her but not zss and sheik.

as for results... big nope... dabuz wins any tournament not attended by zero or nairo, rayquaza wins tournaments, falln has also won tournaments afaik, the only thing rosa hasnt won in over a year is majors... but sheik and diddy(zero) have won all majors bar one, which was won by zss(nairo)... i dont follow you on that logic... though i do agree that zss and sheik should be nerfed way before rosa should

Edit: i found nothing on the patches before 1.0.4 so i cant talk about that...

ZSS won two, MLG and Paragon

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It doesn't matter how many nerfs a character has had. If they are still overpowered, they need to be nerfed. She could have been nerfed a trillion times already. All that matters is that she's too powerful and needs to be nerfed along with Sheik and ZSS.

Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu are the bigger targets in terms of receiving nerfs, since their offensive games heavily outweigh Rosalina's offensive game, AND they are on the fast side as well; Rosalina's mobility is only around average at all areas.

Also, Rosalina really isn't that overpowered when you consider that she's at a disadvantage against all of the tier 1 characters, her match-up against Meta Knight is rather poor, and it's not like she dominates against everybody either, since she does have some even match-ups against some of the lower tiered characters; examples include Little Mac, Link, and Shulk.

Destroys combo characters? Um sheik and zss are combo characters and still combo rosa. Rosa destroys characters that have trouble getting in and/or killing luma. Luma cannot hit you every time you get a grab unless you take to long to do the throw. And luma is not comparable to nana because when nana was around then ONE grab at ANY percent could be the stock.

This is a huge note to keep in mind for everybody. The Luma isn't always able to save you from getting grabbed, especially if Rosalina gets grabbed from behind. Also, the Luma can't do anything if Rosalina gets grabbed by Yoshi.

Heck, every time the CPUs grab me, even when I do have the Luma around, I "still" end up getting thrown by the CPUs.

Basically, anyone who knows about the Luma can easily avoid its interference by throwing Rosalina immediately upon grabbing her; the Luma can't do anything while Rosalina is being thrown.

 

[Xandercosm]

I'd recommend checking your sources before making a statement like saying how Rosalina is broken. :|

Bro, the difference between 7 seconds and 14 seconds doesn't matter. She's a ****ing overpowered character. We all want this game to be balanced. When a character like Jigglypuff has absolutely no chance against a character like Rosalina, to the point where a character like Jigglypuff is negated 100%, why should things stay the way they are? I don't care if Rosalina has a couple bad MUs. She also destroys the majority of the cast and is just blatantly overpowered in a way that you can recognize wether you are a pro or a casual. So, please, don't try to make an argument as silly as a character like her (among others) not needing to be nerfed. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Deleted member]

Bro, the difference between 7 seconds and 14 seconds doesn't matter. She's a ****ing overpowered character. We all want this game to be balanced. When a character like Jigglypuff has absolutely no chance against a character like Rosalina, to the point where a character like Jigglypuff is negated 100%, why should things stay the way they are? I don't care if Rosalina has a couple bad MUs. She also destroys the majority of the cast and is just blatantly overpowered in a way that you can recognize wether you are a pro or a casual. So, please, don't try to make an argument as silly as a character like her (among others) not needing to be nerfed. It just doesn't make any sense.

7 seconds is a huge difference, especially in a fighting game. If she's an overpowered character, every top player would be using her like how almost every top Brawl player uses Meta Knight. Yet the only top Rosalina players I can name are Dabuz and Rayquaza07.

True balance is virtually impossible to achieve without making the game degenerate. Plus, Smash has a bunch of other modes like FFA that Sakurai takes into consideration.

Yes Jigglypuff is an unfortunate character, but low tiers are inevitable. Low tier in SSB4 isn't as bad as low tier in Brawl. Even characters like Jigglypuff and Zelda have redeeming qualities.

I'd like to see what pro thinks she's overpowered.

Why should we not make an argument as to why she shouldn't have Rosalina nerfed? There have been little rational reasoning on your part as to why not.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yes Jigglypuff is an unfortunate character, but low tiers are inevitable. Low tier in SSB4 isn't as bad as low tier in Brawl. Even characters like Jigglypuff and Zelda have redeeming qualities.

To add to this, Ganondorf had no good match-ups at all in Brawl; his only good match-up was against himself, which is an even 50:50.

Smash 4 did help out Ganondorf a bit so that he'd no longer have any unwinnable match-ups. As such, even though he's still a poor fighter overall, at least Smash 4 Ganondorf is nowhere near as awful as what Brawl Ganondorf had to endure.

 

[Wintermelon43]

7 seconds is a huge difference, especially in a fighting game. If she's an overpowered character, every top player would be using her like how almost every top Brawl player uses Meta Knight. Yet the only top Rosalina players I can name are Dabuz and Rayquaza07.

True balance is virtually impossible to achieve without making the game degenerate. Plus, Smash has a bunch of other modes like FFA that Sakurai takes into consideration.

Yes Jigglypuff is an unfortunate character, but low tiers are inevitable. Low tier in SSB4 isn't as bad as low tier in Brawl. Even characters like Jigglypuff and Zelda have redeeming qualities.

I'd like to see what pro thinks she's overpowered.

Why should we not make an argument as to why she shouldn't have Rosalina nerfed? There have been little rational reasoning on your part as to why not.

There's Falln.

 

[aεrgiα]

Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu are the bigger targets in terms of receiving nerfs, since their offensive games heavily outweigh Rosalina's offensive game, AND they are on the fast side as well; Rosalina's mobility is only around average at all areas.

Also, Rosalina really isn't that overpowered when you consider that she's at a disadvantage against all of the tier 1 characters, her match-up against Meta Knight is rather poor, and it's not like she dominates against everybody either, since she does have some even match-ups against some of the lower tiered characters; examples include Little Mac, Link, and Shulk.



This is a huge note to keep in mind for everybody. The Luma isn't always able to save you from getting grabbed, especially if Rosalina gets grabbed from behind. Also, the Luma can't do anything if Rosalina gets grabbed by Yoshi.

Heck, every time the CPUs grab me, even when I do have the Luma around, I "still" end up getting thrown by the CPUs.

Basically, anyone who knows about the Luma can easily avoid its interference by throwing Rosalina immediately upon grabbing her; the Luma can't do anything while Rosalina is being thrown.

the only thing i find absolutely stupid is the fact that luma can hit u after uve thrown rosa, the problem isnt that u cant throw rosa, its that fact that u cant follow up because of that stupid little star thing...

i change my earlier statement, theres one nerf that rosa should get, luma should not be able to attack when rosa cant either(like after a throw). this is not because i think rosas overpowered or anything like that, but its just stupid when luma can throw out an attack when rosa isnt able to :/

also she does dominate quite a few characters, i know ness is often seen as "the only 70:30 mu in this game" and whilst i dont think the mu is that bad, it still heavily favours rosa, she dominates quite a few "spacing characters". when her mus basically come down to how well characters can deal with luma, thats a dominating character to me, especially when a lot of the lower tier characters struggle with exactly that... as ive said before, i dont think rosa is broken by any means but you also should downplay her incredibly dominating advantages , if luma was a separate character she would be broken, but she isnt because 1, luma can die, and while a lot of characters have to willingly throw out unsafe moves(and get punished for them) just to get rid of luma, they can do so. 2. rosa is tall, light and floaty, 3 properties which make mewtwo bottom tier in most peoples eyes(i dont think hes that bad but u get the point ).

As a Rosalina main, I'll just add my two cents into this.

I feel that she is certainly top tier, atleast within the top 6 boundaries. The fact that Rosalina actually has disadvantage points, and loses a couple of matchups however makes her far more balanced than the other top tiers. She needs no more nerfs what so ever. Any more nerfs on Rosalina would be proof that Sakurai is sucking up the casuals, especially when characters like Sheik need a nerf far more. Rosalina hasn't even won a tournament IIRC for at least 6 months, maybe even more. There is no doubt she is a great character with combos and exploitable options, but she herself has an exploitable state.

Also, she is incredibly hard to use correctly and master. She's my main, but I haven't mastered her so to speak yet. There are still things I could be doing better every day.

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/team?rank=1&value=0&team=rosalina while most of those arent impressive tournaments, i dont see how u can say she hasnt won a tournament in over 6 months... tgc 5 looked like quite a few good players attended for example... sorry im not getting this "rosa has no tournament wins" logic... Wintermelon43 i forgot paragon, since zero didnt attend that.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

the only thing i find absolutely stupid is the fact that luma can hit u after uve thrown rosa, the problem isnt that u cant throw rosa, its that fact that u cant follow up because of that stupid little star thing...

i change my earlier statement, theres one nerf that rosa should get, luma should not be able to attack when rosa cant either(like after a throw). this is not because i think rosas overpowered or anything like that, but its just stupid when luma can throw out an attack when rosa isnt able to :/

Some characters can still keep the Luma at bay with their throws though. Mario's b-throw is one notable throw, since it can deal collateral damage to other opponents while Mario is spinning his grabbed adversary.

 

[Xandercosm]

Well, Rosalina is a top tier character. So, I think it just comes down to a matter of opinion about wether she's op or not.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

..no, its not the amount of changes that counts its what they actually change that counts... and well, going through patch notes so i dont say something stupid, patch 1.0.4 -> mainly nerfs with a few buffs, i found no rosa changes for 1.0.5, 1.0.6 ->lumas health decreased, thats it. found nothing for 1.0.7... 1.0.8 -> buffed lumas hp and nerfed jabs kb. 1.0.9 -> no gameplay changes. 1.1.0-> rosa stayed the same. 1.1.1 ->multi jab got a small damage nerf(0.3%). 1.1.2 -> no changes really. 1.1.3-> no changes to rosa. so since patch 1.0.4 rosa got luma hp decreased, which got increased later again, for a total change of -2 hp(?), jabs knockback got decreased a small amount, still kills(and is still one of the best jabs in the game), and muti jab damage got decreased by a small amount... so yeah, i completely agree, she got nerfed into oblivion over the course of all the patches... NOT! patch 1.0.4 hit her hard, but thats a single patch, the others are nothing gamebreaking... im 100% sure any rosa main would, if given the choice, take all the nerfs from patch 1.0.5 to 1.1.3 over taking only the nerfs from 1.0.4-> yep its the amount of patches that counts right??? anyway we both agree that rosa doesnt need nerfs so i wont coment on the part about people complaining about her but not zss and sheik.

as for results... big nope... dabuz wins any tournament not attended by zero or nairo, rayquaza wins tournaments, falln has also won tournaments afaik, the only thing rosa hasnt won in over a year is majors... but sheik and diddy(zero) have won all majors bar one, which was won by zss(nairo)... i dont follow you on that logic... though i do agree that zss and sheik should be nerfed way before rosa should

Edit: i found nothing on the patches before 1.0.4 so i cant talk about that...

No Rosalina has still won a major tournament(no matter what region it's held at), and since she's still called broken but hasn't really won anything serious in a long time, she doesn't need to be nerfed instantly compared to Shiek and Zamus.

Actually she basically destroys all combo characters since Luma pokes them whenever they get a grab and she has a walking shield everywhere she goes. Also, all her attacks have insane range and power. Plus, unlike Ice Climbers, Luma comes back after just 7 seconds. It's absolutely ridiculous to say she's not broken. That's why she's top tier.

Rosalina doesn't combo every combo character, Shiek and ZSS destroy her(Ryu could possibly destroy her, but idk)

 

[aεrgiα]

No Rosalina has still won a major tournament(no matter what region it's held at), and since she's still called broken but hasn't really won anything serious in a long time, she doesn't need to be nerfed instantly compared to Shiek and Zamus.

Rosalina doesn't combo every combo character, Shiek and ZSS destroy her(Ryu could possibly destroy her, but idk)

did u read my comment? i even said she hasnt won a major, why? because every major has been won by zero, with the exception of once when he didnt attend and once when he lost to nairo... and please, i never said she needs to be nerfed, so dont imply that i did.. im saying the statement of "she doesnt have results" is a big fallacy unless u then go on to say that no character bar zero and nairo have results... yep, i intentionally used the players names... because really NO-ONE else has results in a major, no other sheik, no other diddy(not even prepatch), no other zss, no character apart from ones played by these two have won a major, and if ur using that as ur standard for results, then sheik is brawl mk levels of broken, and zss may just reach brawl ice climbers levels of brokenness...
because really, sheik seems to simply invalidate the whole cast bar zzs whos got 2 tournament wins over her(one of which wasnt attended by the best sheik)... but the truth is, shes not that broken, its just we have an incredibly good player who wins basically all majors and then theres nairo(whos also extremely good) who has beaten him once, and won when zero wasnt there and guess who comes after that? it couldnt be a rosa main now could it? no way but how? o.O and thats why this whole argument is stupid, the only way rosa DOESNT have results is if u only look at majors, where two players have dominated every single one... i will reiterate since u didnt seem to get it in my last post; i dont think rosa is broken, but i think its completely wrong to say she doesnt have results...

 

[TMNTSSB4]

did u read my comment? i even said she hasnt won a major, why? because every major has been won by zero, with the exception of once when he didnt attend and once when he lost to nairo... and please, i never said she needs to be nerfed, so dont imply that i did.. im saying the statement of "she doesnt have results" is a big fallacy unless u then go on to say that no character bar zero and nairo have results... yep, i intentionally used the players names... because really NO-ONE else has results in a major, no other sheik, no other diddy(not even prepatch), no other zss, no character apart from ones played by these two have won a major, and if ur using that as ur standard for results, then sheik is brawl mk levels of broken, and zss may just reach brawl ice climbers levels of brokenness...
because really, sheik seems to simply invalidate the whole cast bar zzs whos got 2 tournament wins over her(one of which wasnt attended by the best sheik)... but the truth is, shes not that broken, its just we have an incredibly good player who wins basically all majors and then theres nairo(whos also extremely good) who has beaten him once, and won when zero wasnt there and guess who comes after that? it couldnt be a rosa main now could it? no way but how? o.O and thats why this whole argument is stupid, the only way rosa DOESNT have results is if u only look at majors, where two players have dominated every single one... i will reiterate since u didnt seem to get it in my last post; i dont think rosa is broken, but i think its completely wrong to say she doesnt have results...

Did you not see the region part of my comment? I'm not talk about just the American side of the competitive scene, there's also places like Japan that shouldn't be ignored in this situation. Yeah I know you said the whole "Zero won all except one" and "she don't need no nerfs" stuff(the nerf was directed to Xandercosm not you). Why else do you think I've been saying she ain't got no wins in any majors...anywhere? Minor tourneys Rosalina probably has some wins, majors none(1st place wise).

Plus, honestly I don't care for the players themselves, I'm talking about the character and their playstyle(like how Ryu is the combo king, Pit's the all around beginner type, and Duck Hunt's...Duck Hunt). Puppetry isn't doing much for her if she keeps on being messed with.

 

[Zionaze]

I'd much rather play a pool full of rosalinas than a sheik or pikachu maybe even a mario

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I'd rather talk about Cloud now since he's new...well that and idk who would give him trouble besides Pit(haven't lost to one as normal Pit, but lose all the time as Dark Pit)

 

[Zionaze]

Ive noticed characters that can combo cloud offstage well and can go offstage without any problems tend to be able to do well against him.

 

[Zerp]

About Rosalina, whether or not she should be nerfed or not really depends on where we're aiming for balance. She's undeniably powerful, but if you were to say, want every character to be around her own level of power/viability then she wouldn't be broken at all, but, if you'd want all characters to be around, say 's level, then she'd be pretty broken. Really, it's a very subjective thing whether or not she should be nerfed or buffed, nobody's actually wrong or right here since we all have different ideals of what a balanced character should look like. Personally, I feel like she should be nerfed along with all the other top tiers, since I view her as overly powerful, but feel free to disagree with me.

 

[Browny]

I like cloud but I feel like hes overrated.

Top half in the cast for sure when a player camps for limit break. For now though too many people are making no effort to learn how to edgeguard him, punish his specials and getting hit by his uair because they think airdodging is going to work despite it getting caught out 4 times in a row before that.

Cloud players are getting away way too often with punishable stuff because people don't know what they're doing.

 

[Deleted member]

About Rosalina, whether or not she should be nerfed or not really depends on where we're aiming for balance. She's undeniably powerful, but if you were to say, want every character to be around her own level of power/viability then she wouldn't be broken at all, but, if you'd want all characters to be around, say 's level, then she'd be pretty broken. Really, it's a very subjective thing whether or not she should be nerfed or buffed, nobody's actually wrong or right here since we all have different ideals of what a balanced character should look like. Personally, I feel like she should be nerfed along with all the other top tiers, since I view her as overly powerful, but feel free to disagree with me.

The only nerfs Rosie needs is for Rage-effected Luma to not kill with up tilt at absurd early percents and for Luma to have more regeneration time. Otherwise, she's fine.

Otherwise, people who still complain about her at this point in the game need to get good. This "NERF EVERYTHING" culture in Smash 4 is annoying. If anything the low tiers are the ones in begging of improvement, Smash 4's high/top tiers are at least nowhere near as dishonest as Brawl's.

 

[aεrgiα]

Did you not see the region part of my comment? I'm not talk about just the American side of the competitive scene, there's also places like Japan that shouldn't be ignored in this situation. Yeah I know you said the whole "Zero won all except one" and "she don't need no nerfs" stuff(the nerf was directed to Xandercosm not you). Why else do you think I've been saying she ain't got no wins in any majors...anywhere? Minor tourneys Rosalina probably has some wins, majors none(1st place wise).

Plus, honestly I don't care for the players themselves, I'm talking about the character and their playstyle(like how Ryu is the combo king, Pit's the all around beginner type, and Duck Hunt's...Duck Hunt). Puppetry isn't doing much for her if she keeps on being messed with.

no, i didnt so i apologize for that, especialy since i asked whether u read my comment, when i didnt read yours properly myself. talking about japan though, it comes down to a question of what is a major, theres a few big regionals which u could potentially count as majors, where i believe ikep has won one and abadango has too(although rosa was his secondary, he did use her though) or if ur saying it needs to be more/bigger than that, which leaves u with umebura fat, and we know who won that ;p see the thing is with caring for the players themselves, i dont really care about players per se, but it really holds her results back when 2 of her best players are in the same region as arguably the two best players in the whole world. after japan u get to regions which i sadly know very little about, mexico i believe has also been dominated by a single player(leo), and in europe(yes i know its sad that i know so little about my own region, but outside of my own(tiny) "local", i have very little knowledge about it :/) it once again comes down to what your definition of a major is, but afaik mr r has won all the big ones
and then, if ur not fixated on first place but go down to top 8/top 16 etc, ull find theres quite a few rosa results even at majors across all regions. if u look at regionals and locals("minor tournaments"), she doesnt just have "some" wins, she actually has quite a few

and sure, we can talk about cloud, i think hes(just like roy) overappreciated imo, m2k said one sentence which is so sad but so true, just throw him off the stage, either he has limit and has to waste it on recovery, or he doesnt in which case hes easy to edgeguard. ive already said previously that i think limit is what also holds him back, because when u have it u cant carelessly throw out any specials, often wanting to save it either for recovery or for that read which can turn the game in your favour i dont think hes bad by any means but i think hes mid tier at best(possibly high mid, but nothing beyond that) because he just has some very exploitable weakness(es), i could be wrong though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I also want to point out that Rosalina is extremely good only if the player is good at managing Luma. Rosalina can have all the broken tools she wants, but if the player is reckless and cares not for Luma's well being, she can have a tough time against anybody.

And as I am sure it has been mentioned before by many people, she has such a different playstyle that it can confuse players. Rosalina can play multiple different playstyles, but is arguably best at a defensive one, one that is completely different to most other playstyles. A playstyle that involves Up Throw juggles with Up Air. One that involves Dtilting, Nairing and careful jabbing in neutral, hoping to convert Jab 3 into some Up Airs. Suprising opponents with Star Bits. One that basically forces the opponent to come to her. I get the most success out of this playstyle, and it is certainly different to playing all the other characters. When you know how Rosalina plays, or what mindset she is in, it's not as hard to understand her and beat her (then again, take that with a pinch of salt, I am a Rosalina main. She is the top tier that I have the least trouble with probably due to the fact that I main her).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The only nerfs Rosie needs is for Rage-effected Luma to not kill with up tilt at absurd early percents and for Luma to have more regeneration time. Otherwise, she's fine.

Otherwise, people who still complain about her at this point in the game need to get good. This "NERF EVERYTHING" culture in Smash 4 is annoying. If anything the low tiers are the ones in begging of improvement, Smash 4's high/top tiers are at least nowhere near as dishonest as Brawl's.

Even then, people should be less concerned about Rosalina, and worry more about Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu.

 

[Browny]

I will restart this thread when Bayonetta and Corrin come up, no point doing it for a month and a half only for another patch to drop.

 

[Xandercosm]

I'd rather talk about Cloud now since he's new...well that and idk who would give him trouble besides Pit(haven't lost to one as normal Pit, but lose all the time as Dark Pit)

I have to say, Cloud gives me a LOT of trouble for some reason. Except when I'm playing Mario, in which case, I destroy him. For some reason it seems as though Mario is a godawful MU for Cloud. But I have trouble fighting him with all my secondaries. So, yeah, it's odd...

 

[aεrgiα]

I have to say, Cloud gives me a LOT of trouble for some reason. Except when I'm playing Mario, in which case, I destroy him. For some reason it seems as though Mario is a godawful MU for Cloud. But I have trouble fighting him with all my secondaries. So, yeah, it's odd...

while i think its way too ealry to talk about mus i can say that a cloud ofstage makes a lucas happy the fact that clouds up b doesnt snap to the ledge goes hand in hand with lucas' down smash nair is also scarily effective at gimping him and bair and dair both are nice little tools and pk thunder is also very effective when cloud has no limit break, on stage is the problem, lucas cant really approach and apply pressure that well allowing cloud to charge limit quite safely and his mobility and the large range on his aerials can be a pain to deal with, maybe thats why u struggle with your secondaries too?(i dont know, just a possibility) but at the same time, cloud is pretty much the perfect size and weight for lucas dthrow combos in my experience and also a very nice height for pk fire spacing, his neutral b heals quite a nice amount too so overall i dont know but its not a mu that i struggle with, and it seems pretty even to me atm not that anyone asked for it but thats my impression so far ;p

 

[Bowserboy3]

I like cloud but I feel like hes overrated.

Top half in the cast for sure when a player camps for limit break. For now though too many people are making no effort to learn how to edgeguard him, punish his specials and getting hit by his uair because they think airdodging is going to work despite it getting caught out 4 times in a row before that.

Cloud players are getting away way too often with punishable stuff because people don't know what they're doing.

I agree with this. Though one thing I am finding easy to do with Cloud is gimping him. I have been picking Marth as my main answer to Cloud lately, as it's easy to shield grab his recovery as it doesn't sweetspot the ledge, and Marth can Fthrow him off stage. From here, I just follow the Cloud off stage, and Fair him, and 9 times out of 10 he won't recover. The Cloud player usually won't air dodge, because if he does, he usually won't make it back anyway. On the occasion he can make it back, Marth can also counter his recovery. This can also be done on stage, with his recovery not sweetspotting the ledge, it allows you to do some Melee style on stage ledge countering. I'm not saying that Marth is the answer to Cloud, let me make myself clear. It's just out of the 4 character that I put time into, I get the most sucess vs Cloud using Marth.

 

[Deleted member]

I can only beat Cloud when I'm using either / or . I don't understand the Pits, but for Roy he pressures down Cloud very well.

 

[Xandercosm]

while i think its way too ealry to talk about mus i can say that a cloud ofstage makes a lucas happy the fact that clouds up b doesnt snap to the ledge goes hand in hand with lucas' down smash nair is also scarily effective at gimping him and bair and dair both are nice little tools and pk thunder is also very effective when cloud has no limit break, on stage is the problem, lucas cant really approach and apply pressure that well allowing cloud to charge limit quite safely and his mobility and the large range on his aerials can be a pain to deal with, maybe thats why u struggle with your secondaries too?(i dont know, just a possibility) but at the same time, cloud is pretty much the perfect size and weight for lucas dthrow combos in my experience and also a very nice height for pk fire spacing, his neutral b heals quite a nice amount too so overall i dont know but its not a mu that i struggle with, and it seems pretty even to me atm not that anyone asked for it but thats my impression so far ;p

Interesting. I guess he struggles against characters with a good approach. I feel like, the less you enable him to charge is LB, the better. Also, he's surprisingly combo-able and that meshes well with a character like Mario.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

no, i didnt so i apologize for that, especialy since i asked whether u read my comment, when i didnt read yours properly myself. talking about japan though, it comes down to a question of what is a major, theres a few big regionals which u could potentially count as majors, where i believe ikep has won one and abadango has too(although rosa was his secondary, he did use her though) or if ur saying it needs to be more/bigger than that, which leaves u with umebura fat, and we know who won that ;p see the thing is with caring for the players themselves, i dont really care about players per se, but it really holds her results back when 2 of her best players are in the same region as arguably the two best players in the whole world. after japan u get to regions which i sadly know very little about, mexico i believe has also been dominated by a single player(leo), and in europe(yes i know its sad that i know so little about my own region, but outside of my own(tiny) "local", i have very little knowledge about it :/) it once again comes down to what your definition of a major is, but afaik mr r has won all the big ones
and then, if ur not fixated on first place but go down to top 8/top 16 etc, ull find theres quite a few rosa results even at majors across all regions. if u look at regionals and locals("minor tournaments"), she doesnt just have "some" wins, she actually has quite a few

and sure, we can talk about cloud, i think hes(just like roy) overappreciated imo, m2k said one sentence which is so sad but so true, just throw him off the stage, either he has limit and has to waste it on recovery, or he doesnt in which case hes easy to edgeguard. ive already said previously that i think limit is what also holds him back, because when u have it u cant carelessly throw out any specials, often wanting to save it either for recovery or for that read which can turn the game in your favour i dont think hes bad by any means but i think hes mid tier at best(possibly high mid, but nothing beyond that) because he just has some very exploitable weakness(es), i could be wrong though.

You don't need to apologize...that can be reserved for the next Cloud player I see on For Glory

I have to say, Cloud gives me a LOT of trouble for some reason. Except when I'm playing Mario, in which case, I destroy him. For some reason it seems as though Mario is a godawful MU for Cloud. But I have trouble fighting him with all my secondaries. So, yeah, it's odd...

I can only beat Cloud when I'm using either / or . I don't understand the Pits, but for Roy he pressures down Cloud very well.

So far, and seem to give some problems

 

[Xandercosm]

I think that Cloud is a really bad MU for Ness. It's more of a thought than a conclusion but I have some reasons. For one, he seriously out-ranges Ness. He also is very good at counteracting Ness's scripted, yet powerful moves. Plus, he forces Ness to get creative since he can just sit there, charging LB. So Ness has to make the first move, which he isn't so great at doing. My hunch is that this could be Ness's hardest MU.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that Cloud is a really bad MU for Ness. It's more of a thought than a conclusion but I have some reasons. For one, he seriously out-ranges Ness. He also is very good at counteracting Ness's scripted, yet powerful moves. Plus, he forces Ness to get creative since he can just sit there, charging LB. So Ness has to make the first move, which he isn't so great at doing. My hunch is that this could be Ness's hardest MU.

Ness at least can reflect/absorb Blade Beam, but otherwise I can see it being a hard MU for Ness. I have to play it for myself though to give some input.

Harder than Rosalina though? Not sure.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think that Cloud is a really bad MU for Ness. It's more of a thought than a conclusion but I have some reasons. For one, he seriously out-ranges Ness. He also is very good at counteracting Ness's scripted, yet powerful moves. Plus, he forces Ness to get creative since he can just sit there, charging LB. So Ness has to make the first move, which he isn't so great at doing. My hunch is that this could be Ness's hardest MU.

Limit Break Down B on Ness, pushing him away from the stage...

 

[Xandercosm]

Limit Break Down B on Ness, pushing him away from the stage...

It's devastating...

 

[TMNTSSB4]

It's devastating...

A bit to devastating

 

[Xandercosm]

A bit to devastating

I think casual players are probably getting destroyed by Cloud's D-special...

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think casual players are probably getting destroyed by Cloud's D-special...

I could actually believe that

 

[Xandercosm]

I could actually believe that

I mean, it's got huge range, charges up incredibly fast, and kills only like 10% later than Mac's KO punch. Broken much?

 

[Djmarcus44]

I mean, it's got huge range, charges up incredibly fast, and kills only like 10% later than Mac's KO punch. Broken much?

It comes out pretty slow (frame 16), and you have to estimate when it will kill a character in order to make it useful since it only does 1% damage. It is also not that easy to get it since an opponent can easily knock Cloud offstage and make him use up b instead. I wouldn't call it broken.