Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[A Distant Demon]

*sees all games announced for EVO* Holy crap guys, Nintendo is going to have a huge presence this year. I'm definitely excited to see how everything turns out this year. This is really going to be the first year Pokken shines on the competitive stage. Now if only a Project M side tournament would be announced, then my life is complete.

A project M event at a tourny where Nintendo is going to have a huge presence and is already dealing with people whining about too much smash.

I wouldn't get your hopes up

 

[Opossum]

As far as customs, I just think the Miis should be allowed to use them.



I mean, they can have them even when the game is set to "Customs Off." That's enough for me.

 

[epicmartin7]

A project M event at a tourny where Nintendo is going to have a huge presence and is already dealing with people whining about too much smash.

I wouldn't get your hopes up

But... It's just a side tourney tho. Project M has done that for several years, even with Nintendo's presence. So... I guess I can still hold out. A man can dream.

 

[A Distant Demon]

This is the part where i remind everyone im not a TO ot player so my opinions are less relevant

As far as customs, I just think the Miis should be allowed to use them.



I mean, they can have them even when the game is set to "Customs Off." That's enough for me.

The problem is less what the game says and more the implications.


You're giving one subset of players more options and abilities that others COULD have but aren't. It's not exactly fair to give miis more options and leave everyone else in the dust.

 

[Champ Gold]

I'll say it once, I'll say it again:

Customs was made as an alternative at the time against HOO HAA last year because people stupidly thought we weren't gonna get balance patches and was trying to hard to experiment. But when the patches came and Diddy was nerfed and fixed, the game's regular meta was much stronger than before and is now still developing into a much bigger game.

Plus Customs are really something that if the community can't agree on, it isn't worth it.

And especially considering the DLC characters won't get a fair shake because they don't have customs.

It's two metas to deal with instead of just one

 

[Fenriraga]

It's all or nothing. Either EVERYONE gets customs or no one. No reason to give a select few characters and advantage.






Customs won't become popular until top players and TOs start wanting them. People echo whatever the face of the community says, regardless of any logic behind it.


So unless Zero and TOs, who are vehemently against customs, suddenly change their mind, Customs wont be legal. Top pros dont want to rock the boat because they might not be as good in the new meta as the old meta. Tos don't want to deal with all the setups.

Not a fun ride for pro-custom people.




Also 10,000th post hype.

Yeah... I just honestly feel like they should be an exception since they're the only characters who literally get entirely different moves for their customs, but it really would be a case of all or nothing.

I honestly wouldn't count anything out of competitive Sm4sh right now. Part of the reason things are as messy as they are with the meta right now is because of how young the game is, and how many new elements the community has had to deal with that we have never had to consider before outside of the PM crowd (balance patches, new characters, customs, etc.). There's going to be a reprieve somewhere down the line, it's just a case of when.

I love compeititve Smash 4. I firmly stand by it being a fantastically viable and fun competitive game, even if it isn't a spectacle all the time like Melee is. Maybe I'm just lucky to have found the tourney that I have, but I love the community that I play withe every week. Smash 4 isn't going to die, even with all the arguments, it's just going to take a hell of a longer time to develop than other Smash metas. I honestly think we need to hear from the Backroom more than anything right now, but that isn't going to happen for a good while.

 

[Opossum]

This is the part where i remind everyone im not a TO ot player so my opinions are less relevant

The problem is less what the game says and more the implications.


You're giving one subset of players more options and abilities that others COULD have but aren't. It's not exactly fair to give miis more options and leave everyone else in the dust.

It's the entire point of the Miis, to be a purely customizable fighter. That alone sets them apart from the others. As far as I'm concerned they should keep their customs on even in a No Customs environment.


Though, for this, I think @AEM can explain it better than I can.

 

[ChikoLad]

I personally just feel that the idea of having pre-made sets to cover obvious issues should be the way to go.

I don't see why, as a Rosalina main (using as an example since it's an obvious one), I should be forced to use Gravitational Pull against characters who literally don't have any form of projectile. The move is completely useless in this situation. But Catch & Release, and ESPECIALLY Guardian Luma, still have a use in these MUs. So Rosalina mains, for example, should at least be allowed to switch to a custom set that covers this obvious issue. Forget about the idea of using Luma Warp or Shooting Star Bit (a lot of Rosalina mains like them more than the default). Because Rosalina's default Neutral and Side Special, are still perfectly functional and useful in every MU. Gravitational Pull serves no purpose unless your opponent has some kind of projectile.

I mean it's one thing if a move still has a function in an MU, even if it's not the best (Villager can still Pocket the wood blocks from his trees, for example, even if his opponent has no projectile of any kind). But it's another when the move loses it's purpose entirely. Those are issues that I don't like, it literally means characters end up with moves that become a LITERAL waste.

 

[Wolfie557]

People just need to get over melee really soon. I've only been watching competitive Evo for 3 years and melee just became so dull that I refused to watch it last year. Let Smash4 shine gee...

I also hope that after Corrin and Bayo come out there won't be any more patches for balancing for the meta to finally develop..

 

[ChikoLad]

People just need to get over melee really soon. I've only been watching competitive Evo for 3 years and melee just became so dull that I refused to watch it last year. Let Smash4 shine gee...

I also hope that after Corrin and Bayo come out there won't be any more patches for balancing for the meta to finally develop..

The day we stop getting Smash 4 patches is the day the Smash 4 meta completely stagnates.

With the way the community is now, they have never cared about developing the meta to tackle MUs they find tough or whatever. Just wait for a buff/nerf to a character.

 

[A Distant Demon]

My Math professor talked in a Russian accent for the first 15 minutes of the first day of classes. He just suddenly stopped using the accent and ****ed with the entire class. Savage.

 

[Burruni]

My Math professor talked in a Russian accent for the first 15 minutes of the first day of classes. He just suddenly stopped using the accent and ****ed with the entire class. Savage.

What'd be better is if he kept switching accents throughout the class period.

 

[PushDustIn]

Sakurai addressed the removal of Wario's Shoulder Bash in his newest Famitsu Column. Essentially, it was removed to buff Wario.

 

[WaddleKing]

Sakurai addressed the removal of Wario's Shoulder Bash in his newest Famitsu Column. Essentially, it was removed to buff Wario.

All this time i thought it was a nerf. I really don't understand how it's a buff, it's slower and overall is just outclassed by his side tilt and other moves + his old one had super armor. I haven't played Wario as a main in a long time though so could anyone explain if this really is a buff and how to utilize the move?

 

[A Distant Demon]

Sakurai addressed the removal of Wario's Shoulder Bash in his newest Famitsu Column. Essentially, it was removed to buff Wario.

Spinosaurus havent you said this wound up being a nerf

 

[Champ Gold]

All this time i thought it was a nerf. I really don't understand how it's a buff, it's slower and overall is just outclassed by his side tilt and other moves + his old one had super armor. I haven't played Wario as a main in a long time though so could anyone explain if this really is a buff and how to utilize the move?

I think it would be great if the Sholder Bash was a Dash Attack and have it be the strongest Dash Attack in the game

 

[A Distant Demon]

Oh and one more thing

If I only included things true to the original source material, then there would also be times when things wouldn’t mesh well. I always reflect on things that went well and things I want to improve with every Smash, but I think it’s most important to prioritize a game’s enjoyability!

Friendly reminder things dont need to be canon.

 

[Arcanir]

I also hope that after Corrin and Bayo come out there won't be any more patches for balancing for the meta to finally develop..

I think they're going to have one more patch or two after them before they pull the plug since you do want to make sure the characters are well balanced just in case something slips by (which can happen even to the best of development teams). After that, we'll probably be left with what we got.

 

[WaddleKing]

I think it would be great if the Sholder Bash was a Dash Attack and have it be the strongest Dash Attack in the game

It's not a slow attack though so i don't think it should be the strongest, maybe around Ganondorf level of power but not Dedede level.
Also i've been suggesting it as a Dash attack for a long time now.

 

[Frostwraith]

Once again, Sakurai does state they can't just slap source material moves into a moveset and expect it to work. What works in a game may not necessarily work in another.

After all, Sakurai did add iconic moves this time around such as Link's jump attack, Donkey Kong's rolling attack and Luigi's Poltergust. Those all could've been in Brawl and the former two could have been in Melee and you could say they were long overdue to being added to their Smash movesets.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Spinosaurus havent you said this wound up being a nerf

It doesn't even reach further than Ftilt. I'm not so much bothered by them removing the shoulder bash itself more that they replaced a really good move that was an integral part of his design with what is essentially a terrible move outclassed in every way by his FTilt. His Brawl FSmash would have helped a lot here.

 

[ChikoLad]

Once again, Sakurai does state they can't just slap source material moves into a moveset and expect it to work. What works in a game may not necessarily work in another.

That's all well and good but this doesn't apply at all to the Shoulder Bash since Sakurai proved it can work in his own game.

And the choice he went with this time around didn't accomplish the task he intended for it.

 

[Frostwraith]

Admittedly, it is a shame the move was removed. It is Wario's shoulder bash that is gone, after all.

Wario Land 3 is one of my favorite games of all time, but Sakurai's reasoning was something I had suspected ever since the change was confirmed.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The whole customs debate drives me up a wall because there's a good number of characters that strongly benefit from them. are given really nice boosts and half of these characters were arguably viable with them on even before customs were banned and they got various buff dumps in the following months. This frustrates me to no end because are so close to being inarguably viable right now thanks to the patches and only really minor things are holding them back. With customs, are significantly better with them on so people who play these characters are royally screwed over by them being off.

 

[Substitution]

The whole customs debate drives me up a wall because there's a good number of characters that strongly benefit from them. are given really nice boosts and half of these characters were arguably viable with them on even before customs were banned and they got various buff dumps in the following months. This frustrates me to no end because are so close to being inarguably viable right now thanks to the patches and only really minor things are holding them back. With customs, are significantly better with them on so people who play these characters are royally screwed over by them being off.

But then you have characters like that are even more irritating with customs.

 

[Frostwraith]

That's all well and good but this doesn't apply at all to the Shoulder Bash since Sakurai proved it can work in his own game.

And the choice he went with this time around didn't accomplish the task he intended for it.

Well, that's unfortunate. I think some tweaks to the move may have accomplished what he had intended with this change.

Oh well. At least, we got some reasoning behind the change, which, regardless of the end result, is something that makes sense from a game design POV.

 

[Champ Gold]

But then you have characters like that are even more irritating with customs.

And also characters who have awful customs who it can never help their problems and makes it a issue to where they are unviable at all because their customs are super awful
& get shafted in that custom department.

Oh it can benefit a lot of characters and make strong ones even more powerful but it doesn't help EVERYONE. I high is the major issue and why I can't deal with customs

 

[Spinosaurus]

Issue with customs is that while they do help lower characters, they help higher characters even more.

all get stupid ridiculous customs.

It doesn't really make the game more balanced.

 

[ChikoLad]

Issue with customs is that while they do help lower characters, they help higher characters even more.

all get stupid ridiculous customs.

It doesn't really make the game more balanced.

That's where the logic of having pre-made sets comes in.

The purpose of customs in competitive Smash should be to fix issues that will never be fixed through patches, not to create the most overpowered sets.

 

[Kenith]

I think the best way to implement customs would be to only let certain customs be used so everyone has some semblance of a chance.
Miis and Palutena get all theirs.

It would be a lot easier to manage because everyone doesn't have to unlock every move.

 

[Champ Gold]

That's where the logic of having pre-made sets comes in.

The purpose of customs in competitive Smash should be to fix issues that will never be fixed through patches, not to create the most overpowered sets.

Yeah but what you're suggesting is making a few custom moves viable and give them the option to only use one. That shouldn't work because if have to use one custom move, we have to use them all. Banning a few hurts that game meaning it's alright we hold off a few so it can help the low tiers. Why can't the high tier characters use those customs and have to have some banned.


It's the sole extreme:
ALL CUSTOMS OR NONE AT ALL

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think the best way to implement customs would be to only let certain customs be used so everyone has some semblance of a chance.
Miis and Palutena get all theirs.

It would be a lot easier to manage because everyone doesn't have to unlock every move.

Pretty much this. It's well known that characters like can do absolutely stupid things with customs on but, that's the thing, they don't need customs to be viable. is the best example of this. Even before her buff dumps, this character was widely considered high tier with customs on but, without, is probably bottom ten.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Picking and choosing which customs are viable is a huge can of worms no one wants to open.

I can see that argument for customs that are straight up glitchy but having people pick and ban customs will only tear the community apart over what is banned. Apparently the same thing happened early on with meta knight banning screwing with Brawl. And that was ONE choice. Now imagine a few dozen.

 

[ChikoLad]

Yeah but what you're suggesting is making a few custom moves viable and give them the option to only use one. That shouldn't work because if have to use one custom move, we have to use them all. Banning a few hurts that game meaning it's alright we hold off a few so it can help the low tiers. Why can't the high tier characters use those customs and have to have some banned.


It's the sole extreme:
ALL CUSTOMS OR NONE AT ALL

I didn't specify that high tiers can't use them.

Rosalina is a top tier that has an issue that's easily solved through customs (i.e. a move that is basically a fourth taunt unless the opponent has projectiles/"items" in their moveset).

Again, the point is that we look at whether or not characters have an issue that can be fixed through customs, regardless of tier standing on tier lists (though we will never have a good and definitive one for this game and certainly don't have one now, so it's not relevant).

That's a perfectly valid reason to just make a custom set that is used as a standard, and the customs project goes for a similar thing.

 

[epicmartin7]

Sakurai addressed the removal of Wario's Shoulder Bash in his newest Famitsu Column. Essentially, it was removed to buff Wario.

Wait... you can submit questions for him to answer? Push... you gotta' do us a favor man. Like, if a select few of us were able to submit questions that you seemingly translated and Sakurai directly answered them. Our lives would be complete. Would it be possible to do? Push pls. Do it for the thread.

 

[Opossum]

Honestly one of the main reasons that I think, even if Customs never become legal, that Miis should have access to all of their specials is this: Miis don't have default specials. 1111 isn't necessarily their default. It may be for other characters, but it doesn't necessarily apply to Miis. Miis don't even show up on the roster until you create one and pick their specials. It's the entire point of the Miis.

It's not giving Miis special treatment any more than Ryu's mechanics or Shulk's stances are giving them special treatment: they're built into the character to give them more options. And once again, they can still use the customs in a customs-off environment. Not even Palutena can say that. Game mechanics>Perceived "unfairness."

 

[Fatmanonice]

I dunno. People used to talk about how broken custom DK and Villager were and yet neither dominated the competition at EVO last year. DK wasn't even in the top 32 and the highest a Villager did was 9th. Sure, we know characters can do really dumb things with customs but where is the hard evidence that it's utterly disrupting large tournaments?

Add in: Also customs should be allowed so I can at least pretend I'm a Geno main. *ugly cries in the corner*

 

[A Distant Demon]

Miis don't even show up on the roster until you create one and pick their specials..

If you dont select anything it stays 1111 :/

It's not giving Miis special treatment any more than Ryu's mechanics or Shulk's stances are giving them special treatment: they're built into the character to give them more options.

Then Palutena needs customs as well because that is her thing too.

And once again, they can still use the customs in a customs-off environment. Not even Palutena can say that. Game mechanics>Perceived "unfairness."

Technically you have to MAKE a mii still. So in a true custom off environment they dont even exist.

Game mechanics>Perceived "unfairness."

We pick and choose what rules we want to follow to make the enviornment perfect for smashing. Banning stages, items, etc.

Whether you say so or not, turning on customs is changing the rules for one character for the sake of buffing a chacater. It's banning making custom moves legal but banning a most of them.

Making Mii fighter customs legal only screws with giving one group an advantage for purely the sake of "developer's intention"

Something we don't give a care for anyway.

 

[Champ Gold]

Using Palutena as an excuse for using customs is stupid.

Because of she was **** with her normal load out, she isn't that special with them.

>But she's Top Tier with Sheik and ZSS with those customs

She isn't even Top Tier with customs at all judging by her results. Look at EVO, she didn't even bust towards the Top 32 at all.

Palutena's whole issue isn't her special, the normal specials are fine, it's everything else.

She has awful kill options, all of her tilts are ****, her Smash attacks aside from Up-Smash are crap and have a damn wind is which makes her ****, she has aerials that don't do anything much aside from Up-Air and her drama data is just a joke.


Palutena suffers the same issue as Zelda where she needs a massive overhaul to fix her stuff. Customs makes her better, MUCH BETTER, but she isn't anywhere near what fans proclaimed she is.

When Vanilla Little Mac and Jigglypuff have much better results than Customs Palutena, then that's a problem.

 

[Opossum]

If you dont select anything it stays 1111 :/

Because it has to give something, lest they not have Special moves. The point is, you're given free reign in how the Mii is made before it becomes playable. That's the key thing here.

Then Palutena needs customs as well because that is her thing too.

And once again, they can still use the customs in a customs-off environment. Not even Palutena can say that.

Technically you have to MAKE a mii still. So in a true custom off environment they dont even exist.

Except that Miis don't disappear from the roster when Customs are set to Off. So no, in a "true" custom environment (which is getting dangerously close to No True Scotsman territory), they still exist.

We pick and choose what rules we want to follow to make the enviornment perfect for smashing. Banning stages, items, etc.

Whether you say so or not, turning on customs is changing the rules for one character for the sake of buffing a chacater. It's banning making custom moves legal but banning a most of them.

Making Mii fighter customs legal only screws with giving one group an advantage for purely the sake of "developer's intention"

Something we don't give a care for anyway.

Keeping a character's defining gimmick =/= buffing for the sake of it. And before you say it, there's more to Palutena than that. She still has one of her main niches, which is the whole "defensive playstyle that focuses on punishes" thing. The execution is one thing, but this was clearly the intent. The Miis' entire point is to be a customizable fighter, to the point that the three Mii classes can be seen as a further extension of this. By removing that, it's removing the reason for an entire character's existence. Once again, not even Palutena can say that for her customs.