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Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

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Johnknight1

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So, does anyone know if we'll get both Lucas and Ness back?
Nothing not on the Dojo, in post-announcement Sakurai interviews, or in the Smash 3DS or WiiU videos are "known."

This is especially true since the only seemingly legitimate "leaker" still seems shaky (the guy who got 3 of the 6 newcomer guess right).

But odds are both with be back, and both will probably be starters. Hopefully "secret" characters die off.
 

Salty the SLUG

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Nothing not on the Dojo, in post-announcement Sakurai interviews, or in the Smash 3DS or WiiU videos are "known."

This is especially true since the only seemingly legitimate "leaker" still seems shaky (the guy who got 3 of the 6 newcomer guess right).

But odds are both with be back, and both will probably be starters. Hopefully "secret" characters die off.
I love secret characters. It brings a child-like curiosity that comes only on Christmas day.
 

Johnknight1

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Not really because relevancy does play a big role for some of the franchises like Fire Emblem and Pokemon. It's not the say-all, end-all but it most certainly helps for modern franchises.
Relevancy doesn't mean crap in Pokémon. I mean, Squirtle, Charizard, and ESPECIALLY Ivysaur weren't new or "relevant," and yet the yet, they were playable.

Besides, there are 750 or so Pokémon now, and all of them are relevant "main characters" since you aren't forced to use one over another.

With Fire Emblem, you only got like 10 main characters, only 2 of which are main Lords in more than 1 game (Marth and Ike, who, not so ironically, were playable in Brawl). The other 3 Lords people want playable are a Brawl Assist Trophy character (Lyn), the newest Lord from the biggest and best reviewed game in the franchise (Chrom), and the Lord who was previously playable in Melee (Roy).
 

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"Relevancy" is the dumbest argument known to man, unless you are talking about a/the main character in a game/series vs. a bunch of minor ones.

Besides, every previously playable Smash character is "relevant" in regards to smash. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool who ought to be blocked.
...Except for Pokemon.

He looks at the latest Movies for who to go into Smash.

Outside of the original 2 in 64, he does think about relevancy for them only.

This doesn't apply to any other series, but is confirmed for Pokemon entirely.
 

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"Relevancy" is the dumbest argument known to man, unless you are talking about a/the main character in a game/series vs. a bunch of minor ones.

Besides, every previously playable Smash character is "relevant" in regards to smash. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool who ought to be blocked.
Lucario and Jiggs were dropping significantly in popularity though, but now Lucario has this new form, and Jigglypuff is a fairy type.

If I recall right, when Sakurai looks for Pokemon to be playable, he asks the developers "what's hot" lately. I'm sure these things have boosted Lucario and Jiggs popularity and potential.

"Popularity" is not the same thing as "relecancy", but a character's popularity can be boosted because of something big that it has recently be given to him/her.

"Relevancy" is still no good as an argument on it's own.
 
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I was not talking about Hypercat, I was talking about the GameFAQs level mentality going on in many of the posts in that thread.
Oh, didin't bother reading past the OP.

I didn't wanna catch the stupid, hahahaha (I think you guys have a hard enough time with me as it is... Hahahaha). Anyway, I respect Hypercat, so that's as far as I went.
 

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People use the relevancy argument.
Yet Captain Falcon hasn't had a new game in years.
 

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No one can "know" anything unless they are on Sakurai's dev team.

I don't THINK Lucas will come back, but then again, what do I know...
MAH FREND'S DAD WERKS FER SAKOORYE, AND HE SED NESS AND LOOCUSS ARE BOTH GAWN. :chuckle:

But seriously, I don't see why they wouldn't both come back.
 

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Relevancy only applies to Pokemon.

Anything else, nope. It has nothing to do with Fire Emblem. He had no idea who to add, so asked.

If it's Sakurai's choice, it could be anyone.
 

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How is Pokemon Trainer hurt by Jigglypuff, Lucario, and Mewtwo having something new going for them now?
You pretty much answered your own question. It also doesn't help that PT's character design is based on the third gen remake of the first gen games and is essentially four characters in one, making him by far the biggest hassle of all the characters to program. As you said, a new PT could take his place but I could also them doing away with him altogether simply for the sake of trimming the fat.
 

ChronoBound

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Not really because relevancy does play a big role for some of the franchises like Fire Emblem and Pokemon. It's not the say-all, end-all but it most certainly helps for modern franchises.
Sakurai went with Olimar again instead of Olimar lookalike Alph.

There is definitely more to selecting characters than simply being "new". At least with Roy and Ike, Sakurai mentioned that those characters were more distinctive than other choices (Roy in relation to other possible choices for a Marth clone at the time) or brought something entirely new to the table (Sakurai mentioned there had not been a slow, powerful swordwielder in Smash Bros. yet).

If a "new" character cannot bring something completely new, Sakurai will simply pass on them, as was the case with Olimar and the Pikmin 3 protagonists, instead of simply cutting a beloved character.
 

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Lucario and Jiggs were dropping significantly in popularity though, but now Lucario has this new form, and Jigglypuff is a fairy type.
Jigglypuff had minimal popularity around the time of Melee's release. What happened there=???

Ness had minimal popularity around the time of Melee and Brawl's release. What happened there=???

The Ice Climbers haven't been in a game since the 90's (sans) Smash, and Sheik hasn't been in a non-Smash game since 1998. What happened there=???

The truth of the matter is we play as CHARACTERS, not icons, representatives, or RELEVANCY!!!!

Does relevancy play a role=??? Yes, but people define relevancy narrowly when the word has probably a dozen meanings. Popularity plays a role (which is how Jigglypuff became playable in the first place), but what is more important is originality, uniqueness, how a character would play, and how they would "function" with the rest of the roster.

Besides, being previous playable in Smash Bros games, especially multiple Smash Bros games, makes you more "relevant" than any just about all of the potential newcomers left.
 

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Honestly, if we're keeping anything of the Trainer's, it's gonna be Charizard if not the whole package.
 
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MAH FREND'S DAD WERKS FER SAKOORYE, AND HE SED NESS AND LOOCUSS ARE BOTH GAWN. :chuckle:

But seriously, I don't see why they wouldn't both come back.
It goes back to that old thing I said a long time ago about priority in building the roster and how there would be cuts, the most likely for not making the final call being lower priority characters like Jiggs, Lucas, TL, and Falco, but I digress...
 

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Honestly, if we're keeping anything of the Trainer's, it's gonna be Charizard if not the whole package.
Spoiler alert: It's gonna be the whole package, just like how Sakurai kept Sheik, Ice Climbers, and Mr. Game & Watch.

Seriously, does anybody else not remember the idiots back then who thought all of them were gone=???

If Sakurai is gonna cut characters, it is gonna be characters who were crappy in Brawl (as in crappy in terms of just their moveset sucking and their potential strengths being underutilized), but those characters were all marquee characters (Mario, Ganondorf, Zelda, Link, etc). The characters that similarly had bad movesets (Bowser, Pit, ROB, Samus) have been mostly confirmed.
 

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Johnknight1, whether you like it or not, relevancy is confirmed to play a role in Pokemon-specific choices.

He explicitly looks at the latest games and movies to determine characters. Besides the first two in 64(note that Mewtwo was also his choice).

Also, he didn't choose Roy on his own. It got suggested by Nintendo. So did Ike. So they don't apply for relevancy either.

It's Pokemon and only Pokemon. And if you think relevancy isn't the main reason, you're way off. Charizard was also relevant via Ash.(who just happens to be also based upon Red like generic Pokemon Trainer was) Squirtle was also Ash's main Pokemon, to go with which specific Starter choices. Ivysaur was the odd one out. I doubt that was a coincidence either, especially after Squirtle returned during the Advanced Season, huh...
 
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Spoiler alert: It's gonna be the whole package, just like how Sakurai kept Sheik, Ice Climbers, and Mr. Game & Watch.

Seriously, does anybody else not remember the idiots back then who thought all of them were gone=???

If Sakurai is gonna cut characters, it is gonna be characters who were crappy in Brawl (as in crappy in terms of just their moveset sucking and their potential strengths being underutilized), but those characters were all marquee characters (Mario, Ganondorf, Zelda, Link, etc). The characters that similarly had bad movesets (Bowser, Pit, ROB, Samus) have been mostly confirmed.
Just to be the devil's advocate, what makes you so sure that those characters will return just cause they have before?

There is no guarantee that history will repeat itself, there is no such thing as patterns after all, that's just how your mind chooses to organize things for convenience.
 

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We can upgrade the PT's team to Gen II (Johto) the trainer's appearance and Pokemon change along with him.
How is it an upgrade from gen 1 to gen 2?

Gen 1 starters are significantly more popular than gen 2 starters. Not to mention more competitively viable
 

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Sakurai went with Olimar again instead of Olimar lookalike Alph.
But Pikmin 3 wasn't even out yet when SSB4 began development and the game wasn't even officially revealed until E3 2012 months later. That's why, for instance, Brawl barely had any 4th gen pokemon because development on the game started in 2005 and nearly a year before it came out in Japan. There's also the fact that Alph isn't the lead character in Pikmin 3 like Olimar was in 1 and 2 and the staring role is shared with Brittany and Charlie.
 

ChronoBound

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It goes back to that old thing I said a long time ago about priority in building the roster and how there would be cuts, the most likely for not making the final call being lower priority characters like Jiggs, Lucas, TL, and Falco, but I digress...
I think Jigglypuff is a cut above the rest of them due to her longstanding seniority. I think she is grandfathered into Smash Bros. at this point. Also for those into the whole "relevancy" thing, she represents the new "fairy" type.

I see the low-priority veterans as being:
Toon/Young Link
Falco or Wolf (one of the two will be low priority)
Lucario
Lucas
Ike
Roy

That's pretty much it. The only last minute "luigified" character I can see getting in this time is Dixie Kong (assuming she even turns out like that).

I am curious how feasible DLC would be for the 3DS, as DLC could potentially be a safety net for any low-priority veterans who are axed due to time constraints.

The only major fighting game that comes to mind that has made characters that were not on disc is Injustice, and I think PlayStation All-Stars.

I know Injustice will be doing at least eight DLC characters, however, I am curious how much space DLC characters would take on the 3DS, and whether the 3DS makes DLC characters unfeasible.
 

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Spoiler alert: It's gonna be the whole package, just like how Sakurai kept Sheik, Ice Climbers, and Mr. Game & Watch.
I know that. I'm just saying that if it causes problems, Charizard will be the one to stay. I want the whole thing, you saw my dream roster.
 

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Charlie is the captain. I say we go with him for Pikmin 3 character
 

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Jigglypuff had minimal popularity around the time of Melee's release. What happened there=???

Ness had minimal popularity around the time of Melee and Brawl's release. What happened there=???

The Ice Climbers haven't been in a game since the 90's (sans) Smash, and Sheik hasn't been in a non-Smash game since 1998. What happened there=???

The truth of the matter is we play as CHARACTERS, not icons, representatives, or RELEVANCY!!!!

Does relevancy play a role=??? Yes, but people define relevancy narrowly when the word has probably a dozen meanings. Popularity plays a role (which is how Jigglypuff became playable in the first place), but what is more important is originality, uniqueness, how a character would play, and how they would "function" with the rest of the roster.
I'm well of aware of that. Still, Jiggs new fairy form gives her some potential for a new moveset, and like I said before, Lucario's moveset is pretty bland.

Jiggs and managed to keep her slot in the series as one of the original 12, there is no reason to not include anyone from the first game. I think Ness was also kept so that there would still be a character from Earthbound/Mother, and they decided to add in Lucas as well. Ice Climbers were added as retro characters, (Sakurai did a good job of making an almost completely original moveset for them in Smash too) but I wouldn't know what to say about Sheik.

And I still agree that relevancy is a crappy argument. I think Bandana Dee has some good potential for a moveset, and if we could get another Kirby character in Smash, Bandana Dee would be the best choice in my opinion. Of course, relevancy is just as bad being used against a character like Magolor, who knows? For all we know, a character like Magolor, Fawful, or Ghirahim could wind up getting in the next game. Relevancy has nothing against popularity and potential.
 

Salty the SLUG

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How is it an upgrade from gen 1 to gen 2?

Gen 1 starters are significantly more popular than gen 2 starters. Not to mention more competitively viable
The popular statement seems more like an opinion. I knew of Gen II starters before Gen I. Some people like certain Gens over others, thus making it popular.
 

ChronoBound

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There's also the fact that Alph isn't the lead character in Pikmin 3 like Olimar was in 1 and 2 and the staring role is shared with Brittany and Charlie.
Guess we won't be getting a FE13 character then. :troll:

Sakurai definitely would have known about Pikmin 3 when deciding the roster.

Mother 3 was not released until late April 2006 (and no media on the game was shown to the public until the beginning of 2006), yet Lucas had a spot on his roster.
 

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Just to be the devil's advocate, what makes you so sure that those characters will return just cause they have before?
Because it is a lot easier to return characters than replace them with new ones, in terms of time, money investment, idea focus, and just general pressure. That is a indisputable fact.

Besides, if we are going to spend the same resources on previously playable character on something else, all we'll get is maybe a few Assist Trophy characters/Pokéball Pokémon (that people stop using largely after 6 months), a few trophies, and/or a few stickers. AKA pretty much nothing significant or that anyone wants over a returning veteran.
There is no guarantee that history will repeat itself, there is no such thing as patterns after all, that's just how your mind chooses to organize things for convenience.
Just to be the devil's advocate, what makes you think the air we breathe will return just cause they have before?
 

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Also, wonderfully off topic, but did anyone else mistake MegaBlaziken for a male buneary evolution at first glance? :laugh:

Probably would have if I didn't first see it just now, and if I looked at the bits of hair, (that is hair, right?) on it's head first.

This Blaziken looks pretty awesome though.
 

Johnknight1

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He explicitly looks at the latest games and movies to determine characters. Besides the first two in 64(note that Mewtwo was also his choice).
Correction: He does it for new potential Pokémon characters, not for arguments against previously playable Pokémon.

Still, that doesn't really explain Plusle and Minun almost being playable.
Also, he didn't choose Roy on his own. It got suggested by Nintendo. So did Ike. So they don't apply for relevancy either.
But again, they are the 2 of the 3 most popular Lords in regards to Smash (the other is Marth, the "signature character" of Fire Emblem).
 

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Johnknight1, whether you like it or not, relevancy is confirmed to play a role in Pokemon-specific choices.

He explicitly looks at the latest games and movies to determine characters. Besides the first two in 64(note that Mewtwo was also his choice).

Also, he didn't choose Roy on his own. It got suggested by Nintendo. So did Ike. So they don't apply for relevancy either.

It's Pokemon and only Pokemon. And if you think relevancy isn't the main reason, you're way off. Charizard was also relevant via Ash.(who just happens to be also based upon Red like generic Pokemon Trainer was) Squirtle was also Ash's main Pokemon, to go with which specific Starter choices. Ivysaur was the odd one out. I doubt that was a coincidence either, especially after Squirtle returned during the Advanced Season, huh...
This should help clear things up pertaining to Pokemon:
Sakurai said:
Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things.
 

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Guess we won't be getting a FE13 character then. :troll:

Sakurai definitely would have known about Pikmin 3 when deciding the roster.

Mother 3 was not released until late April 2006 (and no media on the game was shown to the public until the beginning of 2006), yet Lucas had a spot on his roster.
FE13 was released a little more than a month after SSB4 started development and was known about while Lucas was originally planned to replace Ness in Melee thanks to the canned Mother 64 project that later turned into Mother 3.
 

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Sakurai went with Olimar again instead of Olimar lookalike Alph.

There is definitely more to selecting characters than simply being "new". At least with Roy and Ike, Sakurai mentioned that those characters were more distinctive than other choices (Roy in relation to other possible choices for a Marth clone at the time) or brought something entirely new to the table (Sakurai mentioned there had not been a slow, powerful swordwielder in Smash Bros. yet).

If a "new" character cannot bring something completely new, Sakurai will simply pass on them, as was the case with Olimar and the Pikmin 3 protagonists, instead of simply cutting a beloved character.
There has still been no deconfirmation that any of the Pikmin 3 protagonists are in Smash 4, so you can't really make this point until we know for sure.
 

ChronoBound

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Still no commentary on DLC in fighting games, or about the 3DS's limitations in regards to DLC?

I would even buy Dr. Mario and Pichu if they were DLC.

One thing Injustice did that pretty much eliminates the whole "but what if you deal with someone that already downloaded the DLC and you did not" is to store the data for DLC characters onto a patch that is required for everyone to download (or at least anyone that is connected to the internet).

However, considering how behind the times Japanese developers are, I am not confident Sakurai and his team would think of this even if the 3DS was not hindered by limitations in regards to DLC.
 

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Correction: He does it for new potential Pokémon characters, not for arguments against previously playable Pokémon.

Still, that doesn't really explain Plusle and Minun almost being playable.
We don't know if that was Plusle and Minun, actually. And they're the latest Pikachu clones at the time, you know...

Likewise, that's why we got Pokemon Trainer and Lucario in. In addition, you missed the point. He still finds relevancy more important for Pokemon overall.

But again, they are the 2 of the 3 most popular Lords in regards to Smash (the other is Marth, the "signature character" of Fire Emblem).
Because they were Sakurai's ideas, right? Nope. Means nothing. Nintendo suggested them. He only chose Marth on his own. Don't matter.

@Moon Monkey: Exactly. This is what'll get the earlier ones save Pichu and maybe PT returned.
 

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I'm curious as I never heard anything about this yet before but what's people's stance on "Marth, Roy, Chrom", shortly put?

Now let's just lament that Ike's cut. But we get Roy in return (maybe semi-cloned or his own character).

*Falaflamed*
 

ChronoBound

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FE13 was released a little more than a month after SSB4 started development and was known about while Lucas was originally planned to replace Ness in Melee thanks to the canned Mother 64 project that later turned into Mother 3.
1. I was more referring to the whole "Alph would not have worked because he shared his main protagonist role with two other characters" which is the same case with FE13.

2. I don't buy that because Mother 3 (64)'s Lucas looks much different from the final Mother 3's Lucas. I do know Sakurai originally intended to bring in Lucas with Melee, but Mother 3 GBA as a whole was basically a game that was announced in mid 2003, and had absolutely no details on it until 2006. So Sakurai had to have had inside information about the game when deciding the roster for Brawl to know who the main protagonist was and what he looked like, and what his abilities were.
 
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