Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Fastblade5035]

To everyone talking about cuts and clones...

 

[Johnknight1]

Competitive Brawl can summed up by these words.

Meta Knight.
Camping.
Smashville.

My Competitive Brawl experiences with Meta Knight (I only faced Meta Knight, never played that awful character):
camp
stall
rinse, wash, repeat, and then do it again over and over and over
neutral b, neutral b, neutral b, neutral b because high priority wins
run, run, and run again
up b, up b, up b
makes you approach
kills you
bores you
plank
plank again
plank by breaking the rules because the rules are never enforced
grab the edge over and over
move away from action
trip at the worst moment against Meta Knight and lose a set because of it
brawl
quit the game competitively because it is awful, boring, and makes no sense, and Meta Knight breaks stuff

 

[Reznor]

Honestly, probably ROB, only because he was the campiest little butthole character in the game.

I seriously once played a 15 minute no time limit game IRL at this tournament against this ROB in friendlies, and I seriously wanted to quit. That was actually the last Brawl tournament I ever entered and the last day I played Brawl match (sans mods), and that was like 2009 status.

I think he meant character wise not playstyle if it was playstyle it would be MK
character wise I think Jiggs would be which makes me sad

 

[Mr. OC]

Wow, I honestly thought that was one of the most liberal stagelists I've seen outside of Finland and Nova Scotia, which stages are questionably banned to you?

Port Town
Norfair
Skyworld

I'm sure some over-competitive elitist will try to debate me over it, in some sorry attempt to change my opinion.
Save your energy.

 

[Wario Bros.]

I was just reading this "10 Important Characters In Nintendo's History That Probably Won't Be In The New Smash Bros." and I didn't think it was that of an exciting read. Here is my opinion on their choices:

Spoiler

10) Anyone from the Super Mario Bros. Movie - No one thinks of this film when looking at Nintendo's successful history (Not even Nintendo themselves).
09) Hanafuda Cards - Yes, it's part of Nintendo's history but fail to see it working like R.O.B. or Mr. Game & Watch.
08) Nester - I have little hope for characters created outside of Japan, especially ones that originated from a North American Nintendo magazine. I didn't grow up with Howard & Nester but I don't think Sakurai is even familiar with this.
07) The Virtual Boy - Not a character, simple as that.
06) Captain N - Just like Nester, I have little hope for characters created outside of Japan, especially ones that originated from a North American cartoon from the 90's. And was Nintendo themselves truly involved with this show to begin with?
05) Stanley the Exterminator - He has the best chance than any other character on this list. And he's not Stanley the Exterminator he's the Stanley the Bugman.
04 Geno - Important to Nintendo's history? That's a funny way of spelling "overrated." Yes, there's a super high demand/following for this character in Smash but like the article said, it's all up to Square Enix to decide his inclusion.
03) Town Tool Shopkeeper - Who? And why is he sounding more serious then he truly is?
02) Pauline - Yes, she's somewhat forgotten and not that developed but has a small chance of showing up in some way.
01) Reggie Fils-Aime - As much as I love him and have a chuckle seeing him in a Smash game, but he's nothing more than a spokesperson for Nintendo of America and hasn't really made any life changing contributions to the company video game wise like Miyamoto & Iwata. I wouldn't mind him but it doesn't sound realistic

/endrant

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'm pretty sure at this point, Jigglypuff would be the character that people would miss the least. To be perfectly honest, Jigglypuff is probably the character that has over stayed it's welcome in Super Smash Bros. It was kind of funny the first time around or two, but it's starting to get a little stale.

 

[Johnknight1]

If Meta Knight was cut, I honestly wouldn't care that much to be honest, especially after dealing with his campy, stalling, repetitive little crap for thousands of Brawl matches in order to play the game competitively.

Honestly, if Meta Knight was cut, I might even embrace it, even though as a character and in terms of all of his potential as a playable character I love him.

 

[SoldierSunday]

Metapod confirmed to replace jigglypuff in smash 4

 

[Fatmanonice]

Definitely not Ike. Aside from Sonic, I'd say that he's the most wanted Brawl newcomer to return based on Miiverse posts or maybe people are just so vocal about him BECAUSE they think he's going to be cut...

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

In Meta Knight's defense...he's f*cking bad ass. Mained him on day one. He just need a fix is all.

 

[Johnknight1]

I'm pretty sure at this point, Jigglypuff would be the character that people would miss the least. To be perfectly honest, Jigglypuff is probably the character that has over stayed it's welcome in Super Smash Bros. It was kind of funny the first time around or two, but it's starting to get a little stale.

HAHA, no.

Jigglypuff is probably one of the ten best characters and movesets in all of smash.

If we are talking getting ride of the original 12, I'd rather get ride of Luigi, Link, Samus, Yoshi, and Kirby before Jigglypuff.

Jigglypuff is extremely exciting to see play in Smash 64 and Melee at all levels of play.

The only reason Jigglypuff in Brawl sucked is because the developer is a company that quite frankly will be gone in 10 years because they suck.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Definitely not Ike. Aside from Sonic, I'd say that he's the most wanted Brawl newcomer to return based on Miiverse posts or maybe people are just so vocal about him BECAUSE they think he's going to be cut...

People are being vocal for Ike because they don't want a situation like with Roy happening. It's not the same situation, but fear is playing a role into this. This is especially a problem if in the hypothetical case of Chrom being essentially the successor of Ike actually happens, because it will be one big lose-lose situation.

 

[Johnknight1]

In Meta Knight's defense...he's f*cking bad ***. Mained him on day one. He just need a fix is all.

The problem is Meta Knight is too easy a character to make "broken."

Really what he needs is to have his priority taken away from him, less power (he deserves no kill moves or spikes), and he should be easier to juggle.

 

[Deleted member]

By characters not returning, he's referencing Melee too bro. Characters like Wolf and Lucario could get cut, but I highly doubt anyone in 2 smash games thus far will be cut. On top of that, I think the backlash to any cut of the Brawl roster will equal huge backlash; Sakurai got (rightfully) crapped on for cutting Mewtwo and hopefully, he still has some crap stains for it, and for Game Arts being such a gigantic failure of a smash developer.

Why would Lucario and Wolf get cut over Falco and Toon Link? I never understood people saying that Wolf will go and Falco will stay. It's like ****ing JonTron calling Wolf a clone when they played Brawl. I raged so hard I went Super Sayian.

I've also never understood why the Smash fanbase is the most unreasonable when it comes to cuts. I mean, pop over to the Guilty Gear thread, and take a look, people are much more chill. With the reveal of Xrd, people were saying "gee, I wonder who will return, it sure would be nice to have some old faces back" rather than what I see here which is more like "yeah, Sakurai deserves all the crap he got for cutting Mewtwo and Roy, and he better learn from it, that ****, if he cuts anyone else, he'll get more backlash from us the fans. I want no cuts 50+ characters in a perfectly polished game." Unreasonable demands much? This is why I made that OC challenge thread ages ago, to get a point across to all the people acting like unreasonable princesses.

And that re-adding veterans is cheaper, less time and resource consuming, involves less people, and a lot easier than adding newcomers.

Too bad his design philosophy for this game is MUCH different than the one he had for previous games. He no longer has any need to add clones to beef the roster. Honestly, 40 characters would satisfy most reasonable fans as long as we got plenty of fresh new faces.

My prediction roster is 45 and I know many that would be cool with something like that, c'mon, you wouldn't be ok with this?:

Spoiler

You do realize like Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, and Samus are more clone-y than Lucas right=???

Spoiler

WHAT?!?

HOW???

Dude, you're gonna have to explain yourself bro. That's the most outlandish statement you've made in a long time, and you say a lot of insane ****.

Well I want everyone cut, and I want you all cut deep in the worst ways.

pic related?

Falco is unlikely to simply be dumped just like that, after making it into Melee, and and Brawl.

To my knowledge, I don't much of what I could do for Falco, but I have faith in Sakurai.
Also, I had no plans of bringing up the tier list. I know Sakurai would probably not be looking at the tier lists for that.

Besides, he's, like I said before, a major and popular Starfox character. If they took him out, then he'd at least be replaced with someone else that isn't in already, Sakurai wouldn't lower the amount of reps for a franchise.

I answered most of your doubts in my reply to John, but I'll say a little more. Being in previous games has little no bearing in a character returning. Jiggs has been in since 64, and almost didn't make it to Brawl. When have we ever seen any evidence that vets take priority over other characters?

Also, Smash isn't a hall of representation. It's a fighting game. Sakurai doesn't care about giving proportional representation across franchises. He looks at what characters can do in the context of a fighter, not trying to keep things proportioned across games. This is why we got 3 characters from a franchise that hasn't seen attention in nearly a decade, as well as why Pokemon got a total of 7 characters while Mario only got 4.

 

[Deleted member]

Competitive Brawl can summed up by these words.

Meta Knight.
Camping.
Smashville.

More like one word:

Dead.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Obviously you don't play against top level Brawl players, and obviously you don't know how much a lot of those banned stages make the top tiers better and most every other character worse. Meta Knight can camp the hell out of nearly every banned stage, and many of said banned stages are terribly designed (at least for competitive play).

I don't play against them, but I've watched them in action. It's an overrated experience imo.

Okay, a question to start with Meta Knight. If Meta Knight is the only reason certain stages are banned, and Meta Knight needs special rules JUST to accommodate him, wouldn't it be better to eliminate the source of the problem? Ya know, Meta Knight? And if this ISN'T the case, if Meta Knight is just simply the best character in the game, nerfing him with the stage list is technically a scrubby move. There is also definitive proof that by crafting our stagelist around Meta Knight we arbitrarily buff or nerf characters, something that never should be done on purpose if possible (yet we did anyways and it's defended?)

But in all reality, Starter/CP is a bad system and we should feel bad for using it and start using an LSS ESPECIALLY in the next smash game.

I also would like to know which stages specifically John you think are not fit for play on the bans list, I know some may be obvious but if you wanted at least for some I could go through and systematically prove many have a right to be legal more then likely.

Port Town
Norfair
Skyworld

I'm sure some over-competitive elitist will try to debate me over it, in some sorry attempt to change my opinion.
Save your energy.

Woah woah don't get uber defensive. I have seen fair arguments for all of those stages, though particularly better ones for Port Town.

I know Norfair has been said to have some terrible camping/planking issues, but I never saw in the threads I read someone finally pulling out a video to actually prove this. (Which was asked for a LOT.) If it degenerated play through that, the ban is acceptible. To those who would tell me "what about the hazards" I can point to a thread that actually shows every hazard can be predicted, so that isn't an arguing point.

Skyworld is a bit more difficult. The cave of life argument isn't easy to refute I admit, but the over reliance on stage spikes to me would seem like possibly counterpick material in all honesty. (Those are the listed reasons for it's ban.)

Now Port Town. This one is seriously curious as the wiki doesn't even list a reason for it's ban or talk of its legality like almost all other stages. Curious indeed. However, it was shown that all hazards are predictable on the stage, BUT what might have hurt that argument is one car seemed to sometimes hit you even in a safe zone for no apparent reason. I don't know if anyone sat down to ever really look into it though, so sadly this random rumor could have knocked out an excellent counterpick.

More like one word:

Dead.

We really gotta have this in this thread? -.-

 

[Jaedrik]

People are being vocal for Ike because they don't want a situation like with Roy happening. It's not the same situation, but fear is playing a role into this. This is especially a problem if in the hypothetical case of Chrom being essentially the successor of Ike actually happens, because it will be one big lose-lose situation.

How about that Anna? I hear she's a great lucker.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I was just reading this "10 Important Characters In Nintendo's History That Probably Won't Be In The New Smash Bros." and I didn't think it was that of an exciting read. Here is my opinion on their choices:

Spoiler

10) Anyone from the Super Mario Bros. Movie - No one thinks of this film when looking at Nintendo's successful history (Not even Nintendo themselves).
09) Hanafuda Cards - Yes, it's part of Nintendo's history but fail to see it working like R.O.B. or Mr. Game & Watch.
08) Nester - I have little hope for characters created outside of Japan, especially ones that originated from a North American Nintendo magazine. I didn't grow up with Howard & Nester but I don't think Sakurai is even familiar with this.
07) The Virtual Boy - Not a character, simple as that.
06) Captain N - Just like Nester, I have little hope for characters created outside of Japan, especially ones that originated from a North American cartoon from the 90's. And was Nintendo themselves truly involved with this show to begin with?
05) Stanley the Exterminator - He has the best chance than any other character on this list. And he's not Stanley the Exterminator he's the Stanley the Bugman.
04 Geno - Important to Nintendo's history? That's a funny way of spelling "overrated." Yes, there's a super high demand/following for this character in Smash but like the article said, it's all up to Square Enix to decide his inclusion.
03) Town Tool Shopkeeper - Who? And why is he sounding more serious then he truly is?
02) Pauline - Yes, she's somewhat forgotten and not that developed but has a small chance of showing up in some way.
01) Reggie Fils-Aime - As much as I love him and have a chuckle seeing him in a Smash game, but he's nothing more than a spokesperson for Nintendo of America and hasn't really made any life changing contributions to the company video game wise like Miyamoto & Iwata. I wouldn't mind him but it doesn't sound realistic

/endrant

10. How is this movie important? Just because it was an attempt at a Nintendo movie, it was one movie, hardly known, and not sucsessful. I don't even think it affected the games much.

9. The Hanafuda cards are a rather important part of Nintendo's history, since it's where they started. If anything, they'd probably just appear in the backround of a stage.

8. No comment, I'm actually not very familiar with them either.

7. A character? What? That aside, it could appear in a stage or something, but it would make more sense on a list of the important Nintendo things (not just characters) that probably wouldn't be in Smash Bros. I agree it was rather important though, Nintendo forced the creator to finish it ASAP and pushed it to the market, which was a big mistake for the console. It was one of the very few major failures of Nintendo.

6. Agreed, was Nintendo even really involved with this show? I thought they just gave them the rights to use the characters on the show.

5. He was only created to keep the Donkey Kong arcade games alive for a bit longer, so he has a decent chance. (compared to the others on this list, at least)

4. Overrated indeed. Though, a lot of people played this game when they were young and had a thing for Geno. (I don't know why though) and then Square Enix took the character rights, and there aren't any future plans for a game with him and/or Mallow. It is a shame that Square Enix will probably never use them again though, since they first appeared in a Mario game. (maybe they'll appear in one of those crossover games, like Mario Sports Mix)

3. Wait, this isn't a joke?

2. I can see why she's important, she was the first girl Mario ever had to rescue, and was one of the first Nintendo Video game characters ever made. She only appeared in Mario VS Donkey Kong after that, but she's still an important part of Nintendo's history.

1. He probably isn't as well known in Japan, he may be popular in America, but I can't really see him in Smash, seeing an unarmed guy from real life following the physics and mechanics of Smash Bros. just sounds weird to me, I can hardly imagine it. At least Snake doesn't exist in real life, he and a few others just look realistic.

 

[SoldierSunday]

Is it possible for smash 4 to use GGPO?

 

[Johnknight1]

Too bad his design philosophy for this game is MUCH different than the one he had for previous games. He no longer has any need to add clones to beef the roster. Honestly, 40 characters would satisfy most reasonable fans as long as we got plenty of fresh new faces.

That's what Sakurai said about BRAWL even though a lot of stuff was literally ported from Melee, from frames, data, percent damage, animations, voices, and sound effects. Also, several of the Brawl character models on Smash 3DS are downscaled versions of the Brawl character models.

My prediction roster is 45 and I know many that would be cool with something like that, c'mon, you wouldn't be ok with this?:

Spoiler

You got Impa on this roster, therefore, you should get away from your keyboard, and stop posting. That thing isn't replacing Sheik any time soon.

Oh, and Lyn won't be playable, at least if this theory I have holds up. (The theory is) No character thus far whose last/only game was 2 generations of gaming ago has been a smash newcomer; it is a fact.

You do realize like Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, and Samus are more clone-y than Lucas right=???

WHAT?!?
HOW???
Dude, you're gonna have to explain yourself bro. That's the most outlandish statement you've made in a long time, and you say a lot of insane ****.

Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, and Samus have more borrowed moves than Lucas. It's a fact. Also, most of the Smash 64 roster WAS CLONES!!!

Also, their play styles were (at least initially) a lot less unique than Lucas' was in Brawl, and it isn't even close.

Being in previous games has little no bearing in a character returning.

Functioning in a way that makes your addition feel appreciate is a reason for returning, and being relevant on the roster matters. Currently, everyone of the Melee/Brawl 22 is in that camp, and nearly all of the Brawl newcomers (sans like the likes of Wolf, ROB, and Lucario, who felt a little awkward/had bad design choices).

Jiggs has been in since 64, and almost didn't make it to Brawl.

Because a missing song that is a theme that other character use=??? That isn't much evidence. Plus, Jigglypuff is possibly the easiest character to make anyways.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I was just reading this "10 Important Characters In Nintendo's History That Probably Won't Be In The New Smash Bros." and I didn't think it was that of an exciting read. Here is my opinion on their choices:

Spoiler

10) Anyone from the Super Mario Bros. Movie - No one thinks of this film when looking at Nintendo's successful history (Not even Nintendo themselves).
09) Hanafuda Cards - Yes, it's part of Nintendo's history but fail to see it working like R.O.B. or Mr. Game & Watch.
08) Nester - I have little hope for characters created outside of Japan, especially ones that originated from a North American Nintendo magazine. I didn't grow up with Howard & Nester but I don't think Sakurai is even familiar with this.
07) The Virtual Boy - Not a character, simple as that.
06) Captain N - Just like Nester, I have little hope for characters created outside of Japan, especially ones that originated from a North American cartoon from the 90's. And was Nintendo themselves truly involved with this show to begin with?
05) Stanley the Exterminator - He has the best chance than any other character on this list. And he's not Stanley the Exterminator he's the Stanley the Bugman.
04 Geno - Important to Nintendo's history? That's a funny way of spelling "overrated." Yes, there's a super high demand/following for this character in Smash but like the article said, it's all up to Square Enix to decide his inclusion.
03) Town Tool Shopkeeper - Who? And why is he sounding more serious then he truly is?
02) Pauline - Yes, she's somewhat forgotten and not that developed but has a small chance of showing up in some way.
01) Reggie Fils-Aime - As much as I love him and have a chuckle seeing him in a Smash game, but he's nothing more than a spokesperson for Nintendo of America and hasn't really made any life changing contributions to the company video game wise like Miyamoto & Iwata. I wouldn't mind him but it doesn't sound realistic

/endrant

I actually made mention the 3DS should have a Virtual Boy Wario Land stage in the 3DS Exclusive Stage Thread. THAT would make some sense, and seeing as how it was the most successful Virtual Boy game AND it's been HEAVILY requested to be remade on the 3DS it'd be an epic opportunity. Pauline... I played at the arcades. I have the book on How To Play Donkey Kong. But really, Pauline... Meh. I realise she did kinda show up recently in a game but still, unless she's getting a game of her own or something no. Tha Hanafuda cards themselves could be a stage with enough originality, and I know Sakurai could do it if he tried.

 

[~automatic]

Port Town
Norfair
Skyworld

I'm sure some over-competitive elitist will try to debate me over it, in some sorry attempt to change my opinion.
Save your energy.

Not debating against you, but you should know why these are banned.
Port Town: Zones that feature hazards that can kill from 50% and very close blast zones in some areas (stage portions will feature both at times).
Norfair: Makes it easy for the player in the lead to run out the clock.
Skyworld: Same as Norfair. Additionally, platforms create a box effect that prevent people from getting KOd if you tech against the floor or ceiling.
For the two latter stages it's more about the way the game is played rather than the stages themselves.

 

[Hoots]

You don't devote 3/5-ths of the development time to filler content.

Sakurai sure did.

 

[Johnknight1]

Okay, a question to start with Meta Knight. If Meta Knight is the only reason certain stages are banned, and Meta Knight needs special rules JUST to accommodate him, wouldn't it be better to eliminate the source of the problem? Ya know, Meta Knight?

Well, it would be nice to have a non-Meta Knight stage list, but honestly, a lot of those stages are also good picks for the next top tier characters.

As for the Meta Knight bans, majority rules. The majority of competitive Brawl players and Brawl tournament winners use Meta Knight, which is why a lot of bottom/low/mid tier character heroes who don't use Meta Knight have quit Brawl in the last year or so. The majority is literally cannibalizing the community and eating up everyone else. On top of that, many such players were TO's, so certain scenes (like NorCal Brawl) have seemingly disappeared.

In other words, Meta Knight is killing Brawl, and unless Meta Knight is banned, a lot of his moves are banned, or people switch to say Balanced Brawl as the new competitive standard, competitive Brawl is going to die, and it will die a lot sooner than Melee ever will. Heck, competitive Project M might be bigger than competitive Brawl in 5 years.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I answered most of your doubts in my reply to John, but I'll say a little more. Being in previous games has little no bearing in a character returning. Jiggs has been in since 64, and almost didn't make it to Brawl. When have we ever seen any evidence that vets take priority over other characters?

Also, Smash isn't a hall of representation. It's a fighting game. Sakurai doesn't care about giving proportional representation across franchises. He looks at what characters can do in the context of a fighter, not trying to keep things proportioned across games. This is why we got 3 characters from a franchise that hasn't seen attention in nearly a decade, as well as why Pokemon got a total of 7 characters while Mario only got 4.

You have bit of a point there, but I doubt he only cares about what characters can do.

So long as a character like Falco exists, I suspect he'll try and work him in, he'll try at least. He also probably would not want some characters cut for the sake of fans, but that's another thing. He's an important Starfox character, he's been in 2 Smash games, and there are many things that he could do. From what I know, most of Fox's moves were thought up out of no where, so they could do the same for Falco. So frankly, theres actually plenty of things he could potentially do that Fox and Wolf can't.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

This is why I like casual play more. Nobody really cares about 'competitive standards', so any character can rise to be victorious.

 

[Mr. OC]

Woah woah don't get uber defensive. I have seen fair arguments for all of those stages, though particularly better ones for Port Town.

I know Norfair has been said to have some terrible camping/planking issues, but I never saw in the threads I read someone finally pulling out a video to actually prove this. (Which was asked for a LOT.) If it degenerated play through that, the ban is acceptible. To those who would tell me "what about the hazards" I can point to a thread that actually shows every hazard can be predicted, so that isn't an arguing point.

Skyworld is a bit more difficult. The cave of life argument isn't easy to refute I admit, but the over reliance on stage spikes to me would seem like possibly counterpick material in all honesty. (Those are the listed reasons for it's ban.)

Now Port Town. This one is seriously curious as the wiki doesn't even list a reason for it's ban or talk of its legality like almost all other stages. Curious indeed. However, it was shown that all hazards are predictable on the stage, BUT what might have hurt that argument is one car seemed to sometimes hit you even in a safe zone for no apparent reason. I don't know if anyone sat down to ever really look into it though, so sadly this random rumor could have knocked out an excellent counterpick.

The "defensiveness" comes from me not wanting an over-heated discussion, since that tends to happen a lot in this thread.
But anyway, as for Norfair, I also saw it mentioned that matches there just turn into planking competitions, though I never saw how it's "unbeatable" there.

For the other two, you've kind of summed up my take on them, aside from being hit while in a "safe zone".
That's something I never imagined happening, but I guess it's possible, considering the cars apparently have different sized hitboxes.

 

[~automatic]

More like one word:

Dead.

It's still alive and well in SoCal... and Mexico, Japan, the east coast, France, Chile and a couple other places. It's dwindled a lot but no game lasts forever. Brawl had a good run despite the negativity aimed at it (which was deserved at times).

EDIT: Nice roster, btw.

 

[Johnknight1]

I was just reading this "10 Important Characters In Nintendo's History That Probably Won't Be In The New Smash Bros." and I didn't think it was that of an exciting read.

That was a waste of a read. Pauline is the only character that deserves to be mentioned; the rest are a bunch of bad jokes that would embarrass "comedians" like Carlos Mencia (real name Ned Arnel Mencia, and he is half German and Honduran, and is not Mexican btw).

Speaking of which, Pauline would be a perfect "WTF?" playable character.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well, it would be nice to have a non-Meta Knight stage list, but honestly, a lot of those stages are also good picks for the next top tier characters.

As for the Meta Knight bans, majority rules. The majority of competitive Brawl players and Brawl tournament winners use Meta Knight, which is why a lot of bottom/low/mid tier character heroes who don't use Meta Knight have quit Brawl in the last year or so. The majority is literally cannibalizing the community and eating up everyone else. On top of that, many such players were TO's, so certain scenes (like NorCal Brawl) have seemingly disappeared.

In other words, Meta Knight is killing Brawl, and unless Meta Knight is banned, a lot of his moves are banned, or people switch to say Balanced Brawl as the new competitive standard, competitive Brawl is going to die, and it will die a lot sooner than Melee ever will. Heck, competitive Project M might be bigger than competitive Brawl in 5 years.

Which stages that were banned for Meta Knight are just as strong a counterpick for other top tiers? if possible, I'd like you to list them. i believe you are possible correct on some from what i know, but I would like to know your personal opinion.

I could see Project M becoming HUGE. Not just because of Melee fans either, there seems to be players flocking to it to be their exclusive smash game now, which is amazing really.

But on Meta Knight: we had to craft our entire stage list and rule set JUST to make him "fair". Now, he's probably reasonable if we are totally honest, just an extremely strong character is a very high tier like other fighters. HOWEVER we shouldn't have nerfed other characters arbitrarily to allow one character to compete. that's right, we nerfed some low tiers to allow a top tier to be in the game. That's BAD.

The "defensiveness" comes from me not wanting an over-heated discussion, since that tends to happen a lot in this thread.
But anyway, as for Norfair, I also saw it mentioned that matches there just turn into planking competitions, though I never saw how it's "unbeatable" there.

For the other two, you've kind of summed up my take on them, aside from being hit while in a "safe zone".
That's something I never imagined happening, but I guess it's possible, considering the cars apparently have different sized hitboxes.

I understand, I had someone almost hit me for joking about Mario Bros. being legal. Though there's technically reasons it could/should be

ANYWAYS back on topic, yes the plank fests on Norfair, from what i know a JIGGLYPUFF match may have decided that, and the film seems nowhere to be found when people were asked for it, and no one ever set out to film if the plank fest there would be beatable or not. Should have happened, and top smash players should feel bad.

And yes, it was one car that seemed to sometimes, but not always hit players when they should have been safe on a platform, but again no one ever took the time to 100% prove this which again, is bad and we should feel bad.

No stages should be banned until conclusive proof can be shown they deserve to be. Innocent until proven guilty. I even would like this to happen for stages like 75M in the future just for consistency, and having perfect stage guides for every stage would be a great achievement. And man, what if some things we thought were random aren't, or things we think aren't random are? it's good to know these things.

 

[Deleted member]

Because a missing song that is a theme that other character use=??? That isn't much evidence. Plus, Jigglypuff is possibly the easiest character to make anyways.

No, Jigglypuff has it's own victory music file. It's Wolf that's missing one.
Jigglypuff however, is towards the end of the character data rather than with the other veterans. She is with Toon Link and Wolf, two other low-priority characters that survived the cuts, as well as the scrapped Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Toon Zelda/Sheik, and presumably "pra_mai".

I have explained this a crapton of times in multiple threads.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I think you messed up a quote John.

 

[FlareHabanero]

How about that Anna? I hear she's a great lucker.

She's got red hair.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

No, Jigglypuff has it's own victory music file. It's Wolf that's missing one.
Jigglypuff however, is towards the end of the character data rather than with the other veterans. She is with Toon Link and Wolf, two other low-priority characters that survived the cuts, as well as the scrapped Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Toon Zelda/Sheik, and presumably "pra_mai".

I have explained this a crapton of times in multiple threads.

Does not mean her chances in Smash 4 are any lower, though she may have been low priority at the time, if they decided to add her in Brawl at the last minute, then I suspect Jigglypuff will be in Smash 4 as well, they probably figured it wouldn't be right to cut someone with a good moveset who has been around since the very first Smash game.

That's what I think, at least.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Jiggs is a fairy type now, she can come back with a new special and be a thing again.

 

[Deleted member]

That's what Sakurai said about BRAWL even though a lot of stuff was literally ported from Melee, from frames, data, percent damage, animations, voices, and sound effects. Also, several of the Brawl character models on Smash 3DS are downscaled versions of the Brawl character models.

No they aren't, Samus, Link, DK and Pika are different. Not to mention Bowser is totally different...

I don't get where you pulled this idea from, even Mario's animations look a bit different from Brawl.

You got Impa on this roster, therefore, you should get away from your keyboard, and stop posting. That thing isn't replacing Sheik any time soon.

Oh, and Lyn won't be playable, at least if this theory I have holds up. (The theory is) No character thus far whose last/only game was 2 generations of gaming ago has been a smash newcomer; it is a fact.

I don't see how Impa is a bad character choice. One thing is Diddy Kong pissing people off by constantly bringing her up. Another is her being a legit bad character. For one bringing Impa in means Zelda can finally go solo and become a much better character. There is literally NO REASON to keep the transform gimmick. It doesn't work. The only way to make it work is by completely reworking both characters so that they have synergy and work in tandem, something that is much more effort than it's worth. Having a ranged power Zoner with few killing moves, and a Rushdown that pretty much doesn everything is not a good way of making a transforming character. Remove Sheik, make Zelda like P:M Zelda, and replace transform with a magic charge like P:M Lucas's B.

Our Ninja character survives in the likes of Impa, who can have a Sheik costume is you so wish.

As for Lyn. First off, how can you be so sure she won't get in. She's got a better shot than Chrom in my eyes, especially if we take into account the fact taht Sakurai said he favored unique characters with fresh ideas for Smash 4. Lyn is basically that in a nushell. Her only obstacle is really Takamaru, who in Sakurai's eye could indeed fill the 'Katana' spot for a character, even if Takamaru would be more range and more mix-up than my counter-focused Rushdown Lyn. Roy takes priority over her in some ways as well, but it all depends on what Sakurai decides I guess. She's got a fair shot, it's not a clear one, but it's a shot nonetheless, I'm allowed to have a bit of bias now can't I? She IS my most wanted character after all.

And besides Sakurai's fave FE character is a swordmaster like Lyn, so maybe he'll get the same flash of inspiration as I did with her.

(The theory is) No character thus far whose last/only game was 2 generations of gaming ago has been a smash newcomer; it is a fact.

So is it a theory or a fact?

Lets not even get into the fact of Lyn's most recent appearance and that she WILL be in SMTxFE (according to the teaser). Lets also not talk about how she's among the most favored lords in the West (tieing with Chrom for 3rd Place - who btw like Lucina has an inflated score, I think we can see Lyn tie for second with Hector or get a lonely 3rd if I took another poll in the future).

But anyway, your theory buster:

Relevancy is a stupid counter-arguement anyway, Smash MAKES characters relevant, look at Roy. Also, your "theory" puts the nail in the coffin for Roy, K.Rool and Isaac.

If you're correct a lot of people will be pissed.

Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, and Samus have more borrowed moves than Lucas. It's a fact. Also, most of the Smash 64 roster WAS CLONES!!!

Also, their play styles were (at least initially) a lot less unique than Lucas' was in Brawl, and it isn't even close.

How the ****??

Jiggs I can kinda see. But Falcon? No... From whom? I didn't know Kamen Rider cameoed in Smash 64. And Samus??? Are you high? Pass some of that green over here will you?

Functioning in a way that makes your addition feel appreciate is a reason for returning, and being relevant on the roster matters. Currently, everyone of the Melee/Brawl 22 is in that camp, and nearly all of the Brawl newcomers (sans like the likes of Wolf, ROB, and Lucario, who felt a little awkward/had bad design choices).

Because a missing song that is a theme that other character use=??? That isn't much evidence. Plus, Jigglypuff is possibly the easiest character to make anyways.

Once again, "relevancy" is moot. I don't see how those characters are awkward, and I find it funny how you forget about Ness, who has been more awkward than a virgin around a pretty girl since Smash 64.

And I didn't know you were a game designer, Jiggs is far from "easy to make" where do you base this from?

 

[Johnknight1]

Which stages that were banned for Meta Knight are just as strong a counterpick for other top tiers? if possible, I'd like you to list them. i believe you are possible correct on some from what i know, but I would like to know your personal opinion.

Literally every stage was banned for Meta Knight.

As for the other characters, characters like Olimar and Marth lead to banning stages with walls and super strong hazards, characters like Ice Climbers and King Dedede ban walk off stages, and characters like Falco and Snake lead to the banning of stages that are remotely big.

I could see Project M becoming HUGE. Not just because of Melee fans either, there seems to be players flocking to it to be their exclusive smash game now, which is amazing really.

I can't tell you how many former Brawl competitive players I know who went to Project M, including myself. I know several formerly ranked players in various regions who play that game religiously. It is so beautiful to see their passion reignited for a game (well, technically a mod) that they can actually enjoy!

But on Meta Knight: we had to craft our entire stage list and rule set JUST to make him "fair". Now, he's probably reasonable if we are totally honest, just an extremely strong character is a very high tier like other fighters. HOWEVER we shouldn't have nerfed other characters arbitrarily to allow one character to compete. that's right, we nerfed some low tiers to allow a top tier to be in the game. That's BAD.

Well the extra stage choices hurt non-Meta Knight players, so cutting those stages was necessary since Meta Knight wasn't being banned.

Still, like I have mentioned before, Brawl's wonky play led to a lot of stages that in a more competitive-friendly game would not have been banned.

 

[Deleted member]

Does not mean her chances in Smash 4 are any lower, though she may have been low priority at the time, if they decided to add her in Brawl at the last minute, then I suspect Jigglypuff will be in Smash 4 as well, they probably figured it wouldn't be right to cut someone with a good moveset who has been around since the very first Smash game.

That's what I think, at least.

It wasn't a last-minute addition, though. The only such case for Brawl was Sonic.
Everyone other than Sonic was decided upon back in 2005.

However, Jigglypuff was decided from the onset to be expendable should problems with time occur.
Same with Toon Link, Wolf, Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Toon Zelda/Sheik, and presumably "pra_mai".

 

[LiteralGrill]

Literally every stage was banned for Meta Knight.

Just be careful using that word literally. I'll ask again, you sure every stage that was banned was for Meta Knight? I know that's not the case, and if it was... The backroom should have been disolved as they have no right to make a ruleset with that mentality. (Though I already know during many votyes BBR members admited many votes were given without any proper info because they never played on the stage or out of "I don't like it, it's not in my region so I wouldn't be surprised.)

As for the other characters, characters like Olimar and Marth lead to banning stages with walls and super strong hazards, characters like Ice Climbers and King Dedede ban walk off stages, and characters like Falco and Snake lead to the banning of stages that are remotely big.

Wall infinites are logical to ban a stage for, as well as walk off stages with chain grabs. However, I'd like to see which stages that were remotely big, or had super strong hazards you are referring to for reference.

I can't tell you how many former Brawl competitive players I know who went to Project M, including myself. I know several formerly ranked players in various regions who play that game religiously. It is so beautiful to see their passion reignited for a game (well, technically a mod) that they can actually enjoy!

I understand, it's picked up a ton of momentum, enough I even suggested on the site project I'm working on that we should also collect Project M data. I admit, it is fun to watch for sure.

Well the extra stage choices hurt non-Meta Knight players, so cutting those stages was necessary since Meta Knight wasn't being banned.

Still, like I have mentioned before, Brawl's wonky play led to a lot of stages that in a more competitive-friendly game would not have been banned.

Sometimes yes, but you must remember by removing those stages that being there hurt non Meta Knight players, you hurt them anyways by taking away stages they were strong on in many cases, so what good does it do in the end?

Starter/CP system is the problem. I think with LSS not only do you get superior results, it provides a better medium stage for the first match, and better stages for the rest of the set. No idea why we still use a system that doesn't work.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, and Samus have more borrowed moves than Lucas. It's a fact. Also, most of the Smash 64 roster WAS CLONES!!!

Sorry John, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.

Jigglypuff borrowed a D-Smash, a D-air an N-up, and that's about it really. Captain Falcon and Samus share the N-up, that's it.

The only true clone in Smash 64 was Luigi.

Lucas borrowed an F-Smash, 3 specials, an N-down, and if I recall right, he and Ness have the same U-air as well.