Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Deleted member]

It's still alive and well in SoCal... and Mexico, Japan, the east coast, France, Chile and a couple other places. It's dwindled a lot but no game lasts forever. Brawl had a good run despite the negativity aimed at it (which was deserved at times).

EDIT: Nice roster, btw.

Yeah, I know, but it IS dying. Every time someone wants to play Brawl I do it reluctantly in hopes that they mean P:M.

I think we can be sure the Brawl competitive base will die off when Smash 4 releases and takes over. Melee will likely stay alive for a while though. I mean, Guilty Gear has stayed alive this long and some people even have 3rd Strike in some tourneys.

You have bit of a point there, but I doubt he only cares about what characters can do.

So long as a character like Falco exists, I suspect he'll try and work him in, he'll try at least. He also probably would not want some characters cut for the sake of fans, but that's another thing. He's an important Starfox character, he's been in 2 Smash games, and there are many things that he could do. From what I know, most of Fox's moves were thought up out of no where, so they could do the same for Falco. So frankly, theres actually plenty of things he could potentially do that Fox and Wolf can't.

I get your point man, and he CAN indeed be redone, but that's that, he would NEED to be redone, and it's a race against time, that's why I'm betting my cards against him. But who knows, maybe Sakurai can come up with something. I'm just calling the blows though man, after all I called all the last cuts barring Mewtwo, who wasn't too surprising to me.

No, Jigglypuff has it's own victory music file. It's Wolf that's missing one.
Jigglypuff however, is towards the end of the character data rather than with the other veterans. She is with Toon Link and Wolf, two other low-priority characters that survived the cuts, as well as the scrapped Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Toon Zelda/Sheik, and presumably "pra_mai".

I have explained this a crapton of times in multiple threads.

I seriously can't like this enough times.

Here Yuii, have a super like:

 

[KingofPhantoms]

It wasn't a last-minute addition, though. The only such case for Brawl was Sonic.
Everyone other than Sonic was decided upon back in 2005.

However, Jigglypuff was decided from the onset to be expendable should problems with time occur.
Same with Toon Link, Wolf, Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Toon Zelda/Sheik, and presumably "pra_mai".

I guess that makes sense, but since she did manage to make it in, I personally think all characters from the first Smash should continue to appear in every future Smash.

It's their desiscion though.

I could've sworn Sonic was revealed much earlier than last minute though.

 

[FalKoopa]

Being a part of the part of the original 12 is seen as a weak argument as some...

We did have two event matches in Brawl playing on that, though. Does it make them any more likely?

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic was added to Brawl's line-up and development into the game began early 2007.
He was revealed to be in the game in October of 2007.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I get your point man, and he CAN indeed be redone, but that's that, he would NEED to be redone, and it's a race against time, that's why I'm betting my cards against him. But who knows, maybe Sakurai can come up with something. I'm just calling the blows though man, after all I called all the last cuts barring Mewtwo, who wasn't too surprising to me.

Well you do have a point there, but I'm gonna have faith in Sakurai and bet he'll return.
I don't think Sakurai cares TOO much about what is done with Falco. I find it likely Falco will return if Link hasn't been buffed or changed. Link needs changes, so does Falco, yet Link hasn't been changed at all from what we've seen so far.

One thing that could be done for Falco is if Phantasm is made his recovery and can be aimed, that'd be a nice change.

 

[Big-Cat]

No, Jigglypuff has it's own victory music file. It's Wolf that's missing one.
Jigglypuff however, is towards the end of the character data rather than with the other veterans. She is with Toon Link and Wolf, two other low-priority characters that survived the cuts, as well as the scrapped Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Toon Zelda/Sheik, and presumably "pra_mai".

I have explained this a crapton of times in multiple threads.

If anything, this would suggest that Wolf was rescued from the scrap heap, but that's the only other thing.

 

[Deleted member]

Being a part of the part of the original 12 is seen as a weak argument as some...

We did have two event matches in Brawl playing on that, though. Does it make them any more likely?

We had a few Event Matches in Melee about Mewtwo's villain-status.
Did that make him any more likely for Brawl?

 

[FlareHabanero]

When it comes to the competitive scene for Brawl, it was pretty much doomed to age poorly right from the start due the terrible balance issues making 90% of the characters and stages irrelevant, which was further compounded by the bad direction by making the game far too friendly to beginners, which only caused the gameplay to be over centralized by defensive play.

 

[LiteralGrill]

When it comes to the competitive scene for Brawl, it was pretty much doomed to age poorly right from the start due the terrible balance issues making 90% of the characters and stages irrelevant, which is further compounded by the bad direction by making the game far too friendly to beginners, which only caused the gameplay to be over centralized by defensive play.

That, and the rulesets created to deal with these things were horrible and never got fixed.


If Brawl really is "destined to die" (which is a tad hard to believe since we still even have 64 events) then might be the proper time to start a movement of Brawl players who would come back if the rules were actually reasonable and fair. Who knows, it might be effective.

 

[Johnknight1]

No they aren't, Samus, Link, DK and Pika are different. Not to mention Bowser is totally different...

I don't get where you pulled this idea from, even Mario's animations look a bit different from Brawl.

Some difference/a bit different does not = totally new. Adding new things to old characters is definitely possible, of course. Most returning characters get new things here and there.

How the ****??

Jiggs I can kinda see. But Falcon? No... From whom? I didn't know Kamen Rider cameoed in Smash 64. And Samus???

Falcon = I'm talking about Smash 64. He plays very similar to Fox, and heck, even Mario. He also has a reused up air, forward air, down tilt, forward tilt, up tilt, forward smash, as well as his 2 grab throws (8 borrowed moves).

Samus has a reused up air (just a down air flipped upside down), back air, neutral air, down tilt, forward smash, and other moves I can't remember because I don't play Smash 64 (basically at least around 6 borrowed moves).

Lucas has less borrowed moves than them, as well as Jigglypuff (who I won't get into).

And I didn't know you were a game designer, Jiggs is far from "easy to make" where do you base this from?

Less animations, as well as shorter, less complicated, and quicker movements and attacks, and easier movement to make. That should be easier to make.

 

[Deleted member]

If anything, this would suggest that Wolf was rescued from the scrap heap, but that's the only other thing.

That is possible.
I have a theory that initially, Mewtwo and Roy were to be salvaged instead of Wolf (hence his lack of a victory theme and their strange inclusion of them), but Sonic's late addition threw a monkey wrench into that plan, which ultimately led to Mewtwo and Roy getting cut while Wolf was revived.

The fact that despite Wolf coming before the guests Snake and Sonic in every other case, he appears after them in All-Star Event Matches that go by character order helps support the theory.

 

[FalKoopa]

Less animations, as well as shorter, less complicated, and quicker movements and attacks, and easier movement to make. That should be easier to make.

Also reusing Kirby's model.

 

[FlareHabanero]

In the hypothetical case with Golden's theory, I'd presume Wolf was chosen over Mewtwo and Roy to introduce a newcomer instead of simply reusing veterans, to encourage hype. Emphasizing the new characters could of also been why the characters Ike and Lucario were a higher priority then Roy and Mewtwo.

 

[Deleted member]

Some difference/a bit different does not = totally new. Adding new things to old characters is definitely possible, of course. Most returning characters get new things here and there.

Falcon = I'm talking about Smash 64. He plays very similar to Fox, and heck, even Mario. He also has a reused up air, forward air, down tilt, forward tilt, up tilt, forward smash, as well as his 2 grab throws (8 borrowed moves).

Samus has a reused up air (just a down air flipped upside down), back air, neutral air, down tilt, forward smash, and other moves I can't remember because I don't play Smash 64 (basically at least around 6 borrowed moves).

Lucas has less borrowed moves than them, as well as Jigglypuff (who I won't get into).

Less animations, as well as shorter, less complicated, and quicker movements and attacks, and easier movement to make. That should be easier to make.

Dammit John!!

I wanted to argue about Lyn and Impa! You ass-hole, you dissappoint me.

Ahh well.

Just because they have some similar animations doesn't mean they are clones, I mean the hitboxes and properties for those moves are very different, also, this can be attributed to the low budget 64 had more than anything. It's clear Sakurai's intention was to make them different as evidenced by Melee. Contrasted to Lucas whose generaly playstyle is much too similar to Ness, which really is a shame since if P:M shows us anything, it's what Lucas could have been.

What I'm getting at is that a 'clone' is not characterized by having borrowed moves, it's by having a borrowed playstyle and strategy. This is why Dan, Ken, Akuma, Gouken, and Sakura are all clones of Ryu, even if they have many different moves (hell, I wouln't call Sakura, Gouken, and Akuma Ryu clones tbh, the only real clone is Ken).

As for Jiggs, nah man, programming her and her moves takes more work than you give credit, you're not even looking at balance. The only 'easy' part about her is her simple character design and the fact that you can recycle her data no problem. Technically, Pikachu falls in the same line, especially compared to someone like Link or Samus, but in the end it's the balancing that adds hours up hours to the build.

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly, I felt Wolf might have almost have been shoved out for Sonic, but I think the development team just decided to cut back the SSE opening where Meta Knight got his ship jacked.

I'm not too sure about what would have happened if Wolf was out but Sonic was in, but we may have gotten Mewtwo and perhaps a further delay. Honestly, it kinda sucks we didn't just get a mid-June delay for Mewtwo and Roy, because that would have been a perfect roster. Europe and Australia had to wait that long anyways!

So is it a theory or a fact?

A theory is seen as truth or a possible truth until it is disproven. So far, it has yet to be disproved. Again, my theory applies to potential newcomers ONLY.

Lets not even get into the fact of Lyn's most recent appearance and that she WILL be in SMTxFE (according to the teaser).

I'm not sure how that relates to my theory, but I hypothesis only by being a main character status does this theory does not apply. Again, we'll wait and see.

Lets also not talk about how she's among the most favored lords in the West (tieing with Chrom for 3rd Place - who btw like Lucina has an inflated score, I think we can see Lyn tie for second with Hector or get a lonely 3rd if I took another poll in the future).

For a franchise that has maybe sold at the most aobut 3 million copies over 13 games=??? Seems legit.

But anyway, your theory buster:

Spoiler

They were 3 generations old around the time of Melee when they were first confirmed. Note that in Melee none of the playable characters' ONLY game where they were a/the main character was on the Super Nintendo/Game Boy, and with Brawl, the same thing, but with the N64/Game Boy Color.

Relevancy is a stupid counter-arguement anyway, Smash MAKES characters relevant, look at Roy. Also, your "theory" puts the nail in the coffin for Roy, K.Rool and Isaac.

Relevancy is a stupid argument in how it is used. As for how it applies to Roy, he was the main character in a small franchise game. K. Rool is one of several main characters in a huge franchise. Those are requirements to be considered. Note no one breaks that rule.

And my theory wouldn't kill Roy (not a newcomer), K. Rool (he has appeared as a main character on the SNES, GBC, N64, and GBA), although it could apply to Isaac. My hypothesis I previously mentioned (which thus far is just a hypothesis) applies to him, however, that being disproven does not disprove the theory.

 

[LiteralGrill]

As for Jiggs, nah man, programming her and her moves takes more work than you give credit, you're not even looking at balance. The only 'easy' part about her is her simple character design and the fact that you can recycle her data no problem. Technically, Pikachu falls in the same line, especially compared to someone like Link or Samus, but in the end it's the balancing that adds hours up hours to the build.

Well... Jiggs might just not be a crazy strong character again. I could take a recyled Jiggs with a new fairy type special with no other alterations if we get her back. There is a special love in my heart for the original crew, and Jiggs melee makes me sad to think of her gone.

 

[Deleted member]

In the hypothetical case with Golden's theory, I'd presume Wolf was chosen over Mewtwo and Roy to introduce a newcomer instead of simply reusing veterans, to encourage hype. Emphasizing the new characters could of also been why the characters Ike and Lucario were a higher priority then Roy and Mewtwo.

I agree entirely, and it's this design theory why I think certain clone characters will be low priority this time around.

Like I said, I would rank all the characters based on what I think could be Sakurai's prioriy list, but I'm too goddamn lazy.

 

[Johnknight1]

Just be careful using that word literally. I'll ask again, you sure every stage that was banned was for Meta Knight? I know that's not the case, and if it was... The backroom should have been disolved as they have no right to make a ruleset with that mentality. (Though I already know during many votyes BBR members admited many votes were given without any proper info because they never played on the stage or out of "I don't like it, it's not in my region so I wouldn't be surprised.)

Every stage is either banned because it is just broken for a tournament environment (Hyrule Temple, New Pork City, Big Blue) or because of Meta Knight generally. The few other stages are banned for the other reasons I gave.

I understand, it's picked up a ton of momentum, enough I even suggested on the site project I'm working on that we should also collect Project M data. I admit, it is fun to watch for sure.

Project M should be a side tournament for lots of Melee and Brawl tournaments, especially the ones with the time. The same goes with bottom/low/mid tier tournaments, and heck, to an extent (some tournaments), even item allowing side tournaments. Oh, and can doubles be big again please=???

Sometimes yes, but you must remember by removing those stages that being there hurt non Meta Knight players, you hurt them anyways by taking away stages they were strong on in many cases, so what good does it do in the end?

Banning stages for Meta Knight hurts only non-Meta Knight matches, which are less common than matches with Meta Knight probably, lol. And honestly, it doesn't hurt in Meta Knight matches. My favorite CP stages were Delfino Plaza and ESPECIALLY Rainbow Cruise in Brawl. Those stages were great for Toon Link, but they were perfect for Meta Knight.

Whenever I played a Meta Knight on those stages, they had a huge advantage. I never once lost a single casual or competitive game on there to someone not playing Meta Knight in Brawl (true facts), but I nearly always lost to Meta Knight players there, because Meta Knight is even more broken there.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Okay, I gotta ask, is anyone as scared of patches as I am?

Everyone thinks they will improve balance for us competitive players, but I'm scared it will become PSASBR and we'll end up with the randoms asking for changes and it happened.

For those who don't know, they nerfed low tiers and buffed top tiers in PSASBR because of this vocal majority complaining. They wanna please the large part of the fanbase, and this could be scary. Especially if they make MAJOR game changes like the last patch PSASBR had and make everything you ever learned for six month null and void too to avoid some things.

Any thoughts?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Everyone knows the characters from the past are better than the ones from the newer games

They should have higher priority

 

[Johnknight1]

Contrasted to Lucas whose generaly playstyle is much too similar to Ness, which really is a shame since if P:M shows us anything, it's what Lucas could have been.

Lucas plays too similar to Ness because of the stupid hitstun crap they have in Brawl. If it wasn't for that, we would see a more open-ended Lucas (and Ness for that matter, too).

As for Jiggs, nah man, programming her and her moves takes more work than you give credit, you're not even looking at balance. The only 'easy' part about her is her simple character design and the fact that you can recycle her data no problem.

Jigglypuff changed relatively very little from Smash 64 to Melee (Melee changed things more than Jigglypuff's few changes).

Whereas in Brawl they just took away everything, and left her with nothing, and thought "eh, that's balanced." But hey, that's Game Arts for you!

 

[LiteralGrill]

Every stage is either banned because it is just broken for a tournament environment (Hyrule Temple, New Pork City, Big Blue) or because of Meta Knight generally. The few other stages are banned for the other reasons I gave.

And I'd like to know which stages fall under which qualification. Take the ban list, and list em out if you have to. Prove your point to me with specifics so I can see if I agree or disagree.

Project M should be a side tournament for lots of Melee and Brawl tournaments, especially the ones with the time. The same goes with bottom/low/mid tier tournaments, and heck, to an extent (some tournaments), even item allowing side tournaments. Oh, and can doubles be big again please=???

I think P:M IS becoming a bigger event at some tournaments, one I saw recently had only brawl and P:M even, things like that are becoming a trend.

Banning stages for Meta Knight hurts only non-Meta Knight matches, which are less common than matches with Meta Knight probably, lol. And honestly, it doesn't hurt in Meta Knight matches. My favorite CP stages were Delfino Plaza and ESPECIALLY Rainbow Cruise in Brawl. Those stages were great for Toon Link, but they were perfect for Meta Knight.

Whenever I played a Meta Knight on those stages, they had a huge advantage. I never once lost a single casual or competitive game on there to someone not playing Meta Knight in Brawl (true facts), but I nearly always lost to Meta Knight players there, because Meta Knight is even more broken there.

By banning those stages, you make EVEN LESS non MK matches though. Again, it seems the problem is not the stages. There's a HUGE double standard going on and it needs to be pointed out and avoided like the plague in the next smash game or we'll end up with a crappy ruleset again. I don't want that to happen under any circumstances.

 

[Deleted member]

A theory is seen as truth or a possible truth until it is disproven. So far, it has yet to be disproved. Again, my theory applies to potential newcomers ONLY.

True, but theories can also be complete bull****, like H.A.A.R.P. likewise, my theory is the opposite of yours, so we'll just have to see.

I'm not sure how that relates to my theory, but I hypothesis only by being a main character status does this theory does not apply. Again, we'll wait and see.

She is a main character, she shares that role with the other two, and in many ways the icon of that game. She made it in over Eliwood and Hector in both Brawl and FE:A.

For a franchise that has maybe sold at the most aobut 3 million copies over 13 games=??? Seems legit.

>implying FE isn't the most controversial topic for Smash debates. For such a low selling franchise it sure is popular and can sure cause a lot of controversey. I do think that getting NO characters from FE is possible too though.

But anyway, what's not legit? Lyn's popularity? Check the poll bro, it was sent across many sites in the web, from FE fansites, to 4chan and Reddit, to GameFAQs and NeoGAF, here, etc... At over 4000 votes and nearly 1300 voters, it's about as real an opinion as you'll get on that subject. Also, to update, Lyn is now tied for 2nd with Hector, leaving Chrom to a lonely 3rd place, so... yeah. Even after 11+ years, she's still topping Western polls and remains a wildly popular face of the franchise with Hector, Ike and now Lucina.

Lastly, lest not we forget how she DID indeed show up in Brawl, that's a major boost my friend. Sakurai is indeed aware of just how popular she is in the West, and that popularity as said before, has not died in the least.

They were 3 generations old around the time of Melee when they were first confirmed. Note that in Melee none of the playable characters' ONLY game where they were a/the main character was on the Super Nintendo/Game Boy, and with Brawl, the same thing, but with the N64/Game Boy Color.

Wait a second bro, last page you said more TWO generations are you changing things up now? If that's the case, then Lyn is safe.

Relevancy is a stupid argument in how it is used. As for how it applies to Roy, he was the main character in a small franchise game. K. Rool is one of several main characters in a huge franchise. Those are requirements to be considered. Note no one breaks that rule.

And my theory wouldn't kill Roy (not a newcomer), K. Rool (he has appeared as a main character on the SNES, GBC, N64, and GBA), although it could apply to Isaac. My hypothesis I previously mentioned (which thus far is just a hypothesis) applies to him, however, that being disproven does not disprove the theory.

I get the feeling that your theory is a way of saying "Lyn won't get in because I don't find her relevant." That's a fine opinion, but I have to disagree my friend.

Lyn, Isaac, and Roy are all from the same generation, and all share the same status of main characters. K.Rool hasn't shown his face for even longer. Furthermore, Lyn and Isaac both showed up as assist trophies in Brawl, thus putting them on equal footing.

Therefore, if your theory is the "Lyn-Killer" then it also dooms Isaac, Roy, and K.Rool.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Okay, I gotta ask, is anyone as scared of patches as I am?

Everyone thinks they will improve balance for us competitive players, but I'm scared it will become PSASBR and we'll end up with the randoms asking for changes and it happened.

For those who don't know, they nerfed low tiers and buffed top tiers in PSASBR because of this vocal majority complaining. They wanna please the large part of the fanbase, and this could be scary. Especially if they make MAJOR game changes like the last patch PSASBR had and make everything you ever learned for six month null and void too to avoid some things.

Any thoughts?

For starters, the guys that are working on Super Smash Bros. are not the same people that ****ed up Playstation All-Stars Battle Royal. Generally speaking, the former is more competent then the latter, and it does show if you do make comparisons.

I'm pretty confident that there would be a better understanding as to what needs nerfing and what needs buffing, especially since we got a develop team that has strong experience with fighting games.

 

[Big-Cat]

Everyone knows the characters from the past are better than the ones from the newer games

They should have higher priority

Not sure if this is a Pastmaster reference.

 

[Johnknight1]

Okay, I gotta ask, is anyone as scared of patches as I am?

I think as long as it is like BlazBlue (where you can choose which version/patch you can play) everything is fine.

Also, as long as they listen to everyone, everything should be fine.

Speaking of which, I wonder how they'll balance items and item-related things in Smash patches!

 

[LiteralGrill]

For starters, the guys that are working on Super Smash Bros. are not the same people that ****ed up Playstation All-Stars Battle Royal. Generally speaking, the former is more competent then the latter, and it does show if you do make comparisons.

I'm pretty confident that there would be a better understanding as to what needs nerfing and what needs buffing, especially since we got a develop team that has strong experience with fighting games.

I can only hope so, but still I worry Sakurai will hear a ton of fans complaining about something OP (Ike's F Smash anyone?) and "feel bad for his fans" and make a change happen anyways.

 

[Arcadenik]

Brawl clones (except Brawl!Ganondorf) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Melee clones (except Melee!Ganondorf)

 

[Johnknight1]

True, but theories can also be complete bull****, like H.A.A.R.P. likewise, my theory is the opposite of yours, so we'll just have to see.

Which makes things more interesting; proving an disproving theories.

lest not we forget how she DID indeed show up in Brawl, that's a major boost my friend. Sakurai is indeed aware of just how popular she is in the West, and that popularity as said before, has not died in the least.

Well if Lyn is playable and no one else "breaks" it, then the current theory will be modified to include Smash Bros. assist trophy characters.

Wait a second bro, last page you said more TWO generations are you changing things up now? If that's the case, then Lyn is safe.

No, 2 generations ago as your only appearance (for characters) = not playable, at least according to my theory. 3 generations ago does not apply, which is what the Ice Climbers were, and why they were in Melee.

Thus characters from this generation/1 generation ago = current character, characters from 3 generations ago or older = retro, both = long-lasting characters.

I get the feeling that your theory is a way of saying "Lyn won't get in because I don't find her relevant." That's a fine opinion, but I have to disagree my friend.

Again, my pre-teen idea; she is the forgotten child in a largely overlooked era. And no, she isn't irrelevant, just lost in the shuffle.

Lyn, Isaac, and Roy are all from the same generation, and all share the same status of main characters. K.Rool hasn't shown his face for even longer. Furthermore, Lyn and Isaac both showed up as assist trophies in Brawl, thus putting them on equal footing.

Roy was playable though, the other 2 were not. Isaac did have a cameo in the last Golden Sun, though. As for K. Rool, he is a long-standing character somewhat, but he is predominately seen as "retro" and "a classic." He's appeared on several consoles, and in the 4th-7th generation of gaming as a main character (I forgot Jungle Climber or whatever on the DS, which K. Rool was the main villain of).

And again, my theory ONLY applies to characters who last main/major character status in a video game was TWO GENERATIONS AGO who haven't previously been playable in a smash bros. game.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

No, 2 generations ago as your only appearance (for characters) = not playable, at least according to my theory. 3 generations ago does not apply, which is what the Ice Climbers were, and why they were in Melee without being playable.

Thus characters from this generation/1 generation ago = current character, characters from 3 generations ago or older = retro, both = long-lasting characters.

John, are you high right now?

 

[Gargaglione]

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...quences_for_super_smash_bros_on_wii_u_and_3ds

looks like there won't be another SSE/story-line

Spoiler

Yesssss!

 

[Johnknight1]

I wanted to argue about Lyn and Impa! You ***-hole, you dissappoint me.

I have Impa saved for later (now). Lyn I don't want to argue, because I would like to play as her (not this time around, but next), but she is kind of like a pre-teen: frequently ignored, because they are not as "teeny" in attitude as teens, and not quite adorable like kids are.

It's just kinda that weird area, which is the time period Sakurai often ignore, with not just characters, but stages, items, and Pokéball Pokémon too.

I don't see how Impa is a bad character choice.

She adds nothing that Sheik doesn't already have or could do. As for the transformation "gimmick," it does impact matches. I see it quite frequently. If you watched Evo, you would have seen several matches where the gimmick helped saved Sheik players, and lead to some crazy situations.

 

[Baskerville]

John, are you high right now?

John has very poor wording.

Brawl clones (except Brawl!Ganondorf) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Melee clones (except Melee!Ganondorf)

I thought this was obvious.

 

[Deleted member]

Which makes things more interesting; proving an disproving theories.

Well if Lyn is playable and no one else "breaks" it, then the current theory will be modified to include Smash Bros. assist trophy characters.

No, 2 generations ago as your only appearance (for characters) = not playable, at least according to my theory.

3 generations ago does not apply, which is what the Ice Climbers were, and why they were in Melee without being playable.

this generation/1 generation ago = current character, 3 generations ago or older = retro, both = long-lasting characters.

Again, my pre-teen idea; she is the forgotten child. And no, she isn't irrelevant, just lost in the shuffle.


Roy was playable though, the other 2 were not. Isaac did have a cameo in the last Golden Sun, though. As for K. Rool, he is a long-standing character somewhat, but he is predominately seen as "retro" and "a classic." He's appeared on several consoles, and in the 4th-7th generation of gaming as a main character (I forgot Jungle Climber).

And again, my theory ONLY applies to characters who last main/major character status in a video game was TWO GENERATIONS AGO who haven't previously been playable in a smash bros. game.

Alright then, so that omits Roy and K.Rool, but Isaac and Lyn are in the same boat by your standards. Isaac showed up in the DS Golden Sun, and Lyn was a playable DLC character for FE:A, and lets not forget, unlike Isaac, she has (practically) confirmed future apperances, at least in SMTxFE.

Anyway, your theory is too damn complex and is confusing me, why just two years no less and no more? Remember that N64 and GBA are considered retro in some circles too now. Also, her last appearance was less than a few months ago, so once again, she's safe.

I don't really see Lyn as the "forgotten child" she doesn't seem to have too much trouble standing out (as seen by the poll), and certainly has her merits among Western fans, something that is much more than what Roy can say, who is supported mostly by Smash fans. But I do understan where you're coming form, FE has TOO MANY main characters, and thus choosing an appropriate character can be difficult at times. Still, her fanbase has practically kept her alive all this time, she still gets plenty of love from IS, whether people like to admit it or not, she's still around, and plenty relevant, which is curious for a series that cycles through MCs like underwear.

And as the closing comment, remember that relevancy means **** in the face of gameplay, which as I've said countless times is Lyn's biggest merit. She hands down the most unque lord we can get from FE for Smash, has tons of competitive potential (M2K agrees) and is among the most unique sword users we can get as newcomers for Smash 4 alongside Takamaru and Isaac. Remember that gameplay seems to be Sakurai's biggest focus atm, so that is her Ace in the hole. So while not a sure-fire get, she's still got a chance. Moreso than Chrom I must say.

 

[Metal Overlord]

IIRC, didn't the CG cutscenes in SSE take up a lot of memory on Brawl's disc? Honestly, I'm kinda glad that they're gone

 

[Johnknight1]

^^^ The only thing that took up more memory on Brawl was the music.

Alright then, so that omits Roy and K.Rool, but Isaac and Lyn are in the same boat by your standards. Isaac showed up in the DS Golden Sun, and Lyn was a playable DLC character for FE:A, and lets not forget, unlike Isaac, she has (practically) confirmed future apperances, at least in SMTxFE.

Anyway, your theory is too damn complex and is confusing me, why just two years no less and no more? Remember that N64 and GBA are considered retro in some circles too now. Also, her last appearance was less than a few months ago, so once again, she's safe.

GBA is 6th generation of gaming. It is barely over 10 years old. And again, this theory is confusing, but it holds up. And we'll see how that cameo thing plays a role. If we get both, then cameos or some role will not be a part of it. If they aren't, then the theory will stay pretty much entirely the same.

And my "pre-teen" comments were more about the GBA/GameCube era than Lyn. And I'm not disagreeing with Lyn, although I would argue Hector would be a more unique playable character. However, Lyn is more of a "main character" in said game, so she obviously gets priority on that merit alone. Being an Assist Trophy character in Brawl doesn't hurt your chances, either. Also, Chrom is too generic, and I 100% agree on that point. (Roy's still my boy though)

 

[Arcadenik]

I kinda want to see Zelda and Impa as a tag team a la Street Fighter X Tekken... Down B to have Impa running to Zelda from offscreen and tags her... and then Zelda runs offscreen in the direction Impa came in... and vice versa.

 

[Deleted member]

I have Impa saved for later (now). Lyn I don't want to argue, because I would like to play as her (not this time around, but next), but she is kind of like a pre-teen: frequently ignored, because they are not as "teeny" in attitude as teens, and not quite adorable like kids are.

It's just kinda that weird area, which is the time period Sakurai often ignore, with not just characters, but stages, items, and Pokéball Pokémon too.

She adds nothing that Sheik doesn't already have or could do. As for the transformation "gimmick," it does impact matches. I see it quite frequently. If you watched Evo, you would have seen several matches where the gimmick helped saved Sheik players, and lead to some crazy situations.

We'll I've said all I've had to say on Lyn, we'll just have to wait and see what happens. It's still a snowballs chance, but like I said, I was being openly biased with that choice in my roster.

As for Impa, I'll await your counter-arguement, but I'll just point out that I DID see the Evo matches and how Zelda helped M2K's Sheik, but subjecting Zelda to being a recovery option is ****ING LAME, and NOT what a transforming character should be at all, that's not Synergy, that's Zelda being Sheik's *****.

THIS is what a transforming character should be:

Mewtwo can fill that role just fine with his Awakened form. The other alternative means COMPLETELY redoing both Sheik and Zelda, whick like I said is too much work. I'd much rather we separate them as there is no point to keeping them together, in which case Impa can indeed be the new Sheik as she can do everything Sheik can, she doesn't need anything new. Zelda deserves to have her own spotlight.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Starfy must be in the game, then, if I understand right, John, since the DS was last generation.

 

[Johnknight1]

Everyone knows the characters from the past are better than the ones from the newer games

They should have higher priority

Especially since Nintendo made better games 10 years ago than they do now, at least on their consoles.

By banning those stages, you make EVEN LESS non MK matches though. Again, it seems the problem is not the stages. There's a HUGE double standard going on and it needs to be pointed out and avoided like the plague in the next smash game or we'll end up with a crappy ruleset again. I don't want that to happen under any circumstances.

I once suggested such stages only be banned for Meta Knight, but I guess TO's consider it too complicated. Oh well.

Honestly, it would just be easier and better for the long-term competitiveness of Brawl as a competitive game if Meta Knight was just outright banned.