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Super Smash Battle Opera - West Lafayette, IN, USA
- Thread starter PurdueSmash
- Start date
BunBun
Smash Master
I really like stage striking.
Everyone ends up playing on Battlefield =P
Everyone ends up playing on Battlefield =P
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
i like the p4 rules alot better, and stage striking rules. i dont see how you can complain about it. you get to strike the 3 stages you dislike in a given matchup.
You could like random just because of the random element, but i think stage striking is more strategic. alliteration!
You could like random just because of the random element, but i think stage striking is more strategic. alliteration!
kirkq
Smash Ace
Stage striking is much more fair because the first set can be so crucial if both players usually win on their counterpicks. The most sensible way to do this is to have each player strike 2 stages in a double blind manner. If they overlap, then only 3 stages are banned, or whatever. (From my experiences, choosing the last stage to strike is too advantageous.) After the first set, then players should each ban a stage.
I would suggest taking Poke Floats off the SSBO ruleset, it is rarely played in tournaments these days. I think pokemon stadium should stay on random.
I would suggest taking Poke Floats off the SSBO ruleset, it is rarely played in tournaments these days. I think pokemon stadium should stay on random.
voorhese
Smash Master
aka, your gonna get *****
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
my dream alarm clock is pooping on me...****in c programming language.
nothing in life should be based on what happens in brawl :S
kirkq
Smash Ace
Most broken stages in order IMO
1: Poke Floats
2: Mute City
3: Rainbow Cruise
4: Corneria
5: Brinstar
Other random thoughts: KJ64 is pretty balanced. I think Fountain just sucks personally, maybe it's balanced, but the moving platforms just make movement awkward for most characters. I think Pokemon Stadium is quite balanced as well, the only portion I'm not a fan of is the windmill (pun). During the cliff or tree portion, you can usually effectively choose not to engage. I would vote to remove Fountain before Stadium.
It really just depends on how you want to define the metagame. Mute City and Brinstar actually give Peach and Puff good counterpicks. Marth is hindered on any level that isn't neutral. Fox and Falco seem to excel everywhere but Mute City, and maybe Brinstar to a lesser extent. If the goal is to balance the game more, Mute City should stay on. If the goal is to ban levels where a certain group of characters excel too much, then Floats, Mute, and Cruise should definitely be banned. I'm unsure how I feel about Corneria.
WarHippy
Smash Journeyman
Errr, wut?
Haha Hippy, that's a joke that the Melee Back Room put in there.
Kirk, in my opinion, Fox is the best character on both Mute City and Brinstar. You can't counterpick Fox, you can only "counterpick the player". Peach and Puff don't need to adapt to anything when playing on those stages. Too many players are doing no items, Fox only, Final Destination, that's why they sometimes lose on these stages haha. I think taking a Fox to those stages is no different then taking a Fox to Dreamland, aka the matchup ratio stays the same (like, CFalcon taking Marth to FD is slight Falcons favor as opposed to Yoshi Story where it's Marth's favor). If "countrepicking the player" is ok, then we should allow many more stages.
PS, Young Link is broken. I love this character.
Kirk, in my opinion, Fox is the best character on both Mute City and Brinstar. You can't counterpick Fox, you can only "counterpick the player". Peach and Puff don't need to adapt to anything when playing on those stages. Too many players are doing no items, Fox only, Final Destination, that's why they sometimes lose on these stages haha. I think taking a Fox to those stages is no different then taking a Fox to Dreamland, aka the matchup ratio stays the same (like, CFalcon taking Marth to FD is slight Falcons favor as opposed to Yoshi Story where it's Marth's favor). If "countrepicking the player" is ok, then we should allow many more stages.
PS, Young Link is broken. I love this character.
I have never cared all that much about what stage I play on.
I perform about the same on all of them. (With the exception of my two favorites.)
On the other hand, most people have stages that just outright kill their performance.
With stage striking, my opponent gets to eliminate three stages that he doesn't like.
While I'm stuck just trying to goad people into picking stadium or battlefield ...
(and I wouldn't have stadium anymore in that rule set.)
The way I see it, stage striking allows a player to be good on fewer stages and get away with it.
I don't agree with rewarding people for having less knowledge of the game.
It's much more of a challenge to pick only one stage that you wouldn't want, and have to be able to function on the rest.
Of course, the REAL reason I don't like it is that it takes the last element of randomness out of the game.
And once you do that, I kind of start to lose interest - playing on the same stages all the time is meh.
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
I agree with what kirkq said. mute and poke are the most broken for the lack of ledges. i disagree that fox is bad on mute city, its what carl said. fox is just always good.
if it was up to me it would 7 neutrals only(normal + kj64)
why?
mute city
-lack of ledges
-cant really recover on it
-dumb camera
-dumb craig stage
poke
-no ledges
-too much in favor of fox/falco(because of their good projectiles)
cruise
-same as poke but has ledges so its better
corneria
-fox/falco get huge advantage due to ability to camp projectiles
brinstar
-i just hate this stage, i always go sheik if someone takes me there
-i wouldnt mind leaving brinstar unbanned cuz it can make lesser characters viable(dk, ganon)
so i guess we could keep brinstar.
Lets just be honest, the only reason people CP to these stages is against better people who they want to cheap out. This could be a legit tactic by the "play to win" rules, but i think everyone gets better just playing on neutrals. They encourage more balanced combat.
stadium as a cp is ********.
@Skylar
There are still many random elements in this game. A dynamic multiplayer game such as smash has sooooo many random elements because you don't know what your opponent will do next(unless you're m2k). There are far more random possibilities than the preset patterns of moving stages. This is why I love the game.
However, for competitive play, randomness should be minimized, hopefully so the better player is the winner. Don't get me wrong, I think those CPs are really fun to play on. Playing them on friendlies is awesome! But for tourament play, my opinion stands.
"The way I see it, stage striking allows a player to be good on fewer stages and get away with it.
I don't agree with rewarding people for having less knowledge of the game.
It's much more of a challenge to pick only one stage that you wouldn't want, and have to be able to function on the rest."
This is a good point, but I think its a red herring. The point of competitive play is to beat your opponent, not be skilled on more stages. Its better to eliminate stage matchups you hate.
Example: fox v marth
fox bans yoshis, fd, and fod (prolly marths 3 best stages in this matchup, fod could be be switched out with bf)
marth bans dreamland, stadium, kj64 (imo fox's 3 best stages in this matchup)
so they play on battlefield. More boring? yes. More fair? yes.
Heres the real advantage for stage striking no one has touched on.
More often than not, the winner of the first game wins the set, because people will prolly win on their CPs. Therefore, make the first game as fair as possible, so it doesn't come down to a random stage one person will like way better.
if it was up to me it would 7 neutrals only(normal + kj64)
why?
mute city
-lack of ledges
-cant really recover on it
-dumb camera
-dumb craig stage
poke
-no ledges
-too much in favor of fox/falco(because of their good projectiles)
cruise
-same as poke but has ledges so its better
corneria
-fox/falco get huge advantage due to ability to camp projectiles
brinstar
-i just hate this stage, i always go sheik if someone takes me there
-i wouldnt mind leaving brinstar unbanned cuz it can make lesser characters viable(dk, ganon)
so i guess we could keep brinstar.
Lets just be honest, the only reason people CP to these stages is against better people who they want to cheap out. This could be a legit tactic by the "play to win" rules, but i think everyone gets better just playing on neutrals. They encourage more balanced combat.
stadium as a cp is ********.
@Skylar
There are still many random elements in this game. A dynamic multiplayer game such as smash has sooooo many random elements because you don't know what your opponent will do next(unless you're m2k). There are far more random possibilities than the preset patterns of moving stages. This is why I love the game.
However, for competitive play, randomness should be minimized, hopefully so the better player is the winner. Don't get me wrong, I think those CPs are really fun to play on. Playing them on friendlies is awesome! But for tourament play, my opinion stands.
"The way I see it, stage striking allows a player to be good on fewer stages and get away with it.
I don't agree with rewarding people for having less knowledge of the game.
It's much more of a challenge to pick only one stage that you wouldn't want, and have to be able to function on the rest."
This is a good point, but I think its a red herring. The point of competitive play is to beat your opponent, not be skilled on more stages. Its better to eliminate stage matchups you hate.
Example: fox v marth
fox bans yoshis, fd, and fod (prolly marths 3 best stages in this matchup, fod could be be switched out with bf)
marth bans dreamland, stadium, kj64 (imo fox's 3 best stages in this matchup)
so they play on battlefield. More boring? yes. More fair? yes.
Heres the real advantage for stage striking no one has touched on.
More often than not, the winner of the first game wins the set, because people will prolly win on their CPs. Therefore, make the first game as fair as possible, so it doesn't come down to a random stage one person will like way better.
get at me!!!
Really, I'm just being idealistic. I understand that characters up the ranks make certain stages broken, and that you really can't play random 100% of the time. Now if only fox hadn't made like 50% of the stages broken, I'd be happier. 
Also: You seem to think I LIKE moving stages. Pfft.
EDIT: Hey! Yaknow what, we should just let people have 3 bans. They double blind them, and if any overlap, well that's just too bad.
Also: You seem to think I LIKE moving stages. Pfft.
EDIT: Hey! Yaknow what, we should just let people have 3 bans. They double blind them, and if any overlap, well that's just too bad.
_kSo_
Smash Master
crrrrrg city
George, "cheaping" someone out with stage selection is the same as "cheaping" them out by playing a terrible match-up for their character. Again, the last time we had this, we all were stuck in using more "normal" stages vs. turning this game into Super Top Tier Bros: Spacies. I think stages that can hinder a top character's performance are a GOOD thing. It eliminates the dependency on your one character's inherent properties. This isn't like Street Fighter, where, within the game, what separates characters are their properties and match-ups. Smash has all this crazy stuff going on with its stages, and that will hinder certain characters more than others.
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
well cruise/floats make fox falco better. so does corneria. so your argument doesn't hold with super top tier bros: spacies
also learn to play a char that isnt samus before you try and say stuff LOL
also learn to play a char that isnt samus before you try and say stuff LOL
Read the argument again. Let's put it this way: You say all CPing to these stages is an attempt at an equalizer for lack of skill. Well, why should the person who is good on neutrals not have to learn to play on a non-neutral stage, so long as that could be a factor? If you KNOW that you are likely to be taken to said "cheap" stage, you have no excuse not to try to be ready for it. "Cheapness" is a weak argument in Melee, because as tough as certain situations are in this game, there isn't one that is literally unstoppable or that breaks the game by itself.
And as for learning to play characters other than Samus, don't think I haven't tried, or that I have given up trying.
kirkq
Smash Ace
Thankfully George brought this up, because no one else seems to have touched on it (bold).
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
George is dumb...what else is new lol
goosefactor
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 1,953
I heavily agree with The Qoob's and George's posts (especially George's last one ). Ya, I know, it's kinda a superfluous post that doesn't bring anything new to the table. :/
). Ya, I know, it's kinda a superfluous post that doesn't bring anything new to the table. :/You like hitting little boys who aren't wearing pants?
Lanceinthepants
Smash Lord
Lets get rid of de_aztec, its so CT sided.
WarHippy
Smash Journeyman
I honestly don't see what the point is of trying to make these slight alterations to stage selection. If you can honestly claim that something like stage-striking and/or removing a stage from the neutral list would drastically change the tourny results, then I'll keep quiet. As it is, it seems that the result in any given match is 95% skill and 5% stage-advantage/disadvantage, (in some cases maybe a 90/10 split). If there are two people that are extremely close in skill level, then I think that stage-striking would be the best option because it would eliminate that small advantage of a good stage. Otherwise, it really shouldn't matter/ it shouldn't make a difference in what stages are chosen. The better person will win.
alcoady
Smash Ace
how many people gunna be at this today?
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
about 72 at least
71 im not going to be there D:
DracoFox
Smash Ace
You might want to drop it down to 23 due to 48 disappointments that always happen.
BunBun
Smash Master
Reading Kirk and George's posts have changed my opinion. I've definitely noticed myself getting better recently, and the only thing that's changed is that when I play people, we pretty much only play on neutrals.
Also in tournament, I think stage striking is a must. The first game should be as fair as possible, because no one will ever beat Kirk on Pokefloats =P
Also in tournament, I think stage striking is a must. The first game should be as fair as possible, because no one will ever beat Kirk on Pokefloats =P
Lol no. That's like saying cs_assault is so T sided it's broken.
Lanceinthepants
Smash Lord
Who the **** plays competitive CS on cs_assault?
DracoFox
Smash Ace
Start learning. I only know that stage due to playing G&W dittos against Kirk.
Devil Ray
Smash Lord
george, next time we play let's do a $5MM: your fox against my ic's. accept it or i'll make john9blue kiss you
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
your dead and your money is mine
unoffical results
13(14?) entrants
1. kirk
2. microwave
3. goose
4. fro
not sure after that but lance, voorheese, hippy, and brain were 5-7
That level was the best thing ever! ... Just in 1.6 though. The source version blows.
Which is probably where this conversation went awry. Two different games. XD
_kSo_
Smash Master
NICE lance movin' up
BunBun
Smash Master
No one, sadly. Cs_ maps are unfortunately fundamentally flawed for competitive play =(
I was just pointing out that Aztec isn't actually that bad for T side.
Also, good **** george.
voorhese
Smash Master
i didnt do as well as i thought i would have this weekend, but i also didnt think i would be using marth / shiek during the tourney.... i couldnt play fox or........ puff (kirk 3 stocked me in puff dittos)
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
i think pools were seeded bad, thats why adam didnt make it out
our pool was stacked (besides me)