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Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

GoodGrief741

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We need to hear this guys. It came from the Geno thread and I’d like any second opinions:
I do agree that Piranha Plant definitely comes across as an insult to any actual character that isn't in Smash, but I couldn't disagree more with the rest. Assist Trophies are very much a place of honor - the closest that you can be to a fighter. Pretending that characters can't be promoted because they've remained ATs for an arbitrary amount of games is absurd, especially because that would require that Sakurai had somehow known that he was going to add the characters as playable next game.

Also lmao at Arms not getting a sequel it's a new IP that sold 2 million copies.
 

Ben Holt

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To the Assist Trophy comment, I disagree wholeheartedly.
If anything, Sakurai made several Assist Trophies, especially the ones viable as playable characters, halfway programmed as playable.
In Brawl and 4, Assist Trophies were very static like PokéBall Pokémon. They just came in, did their little dance, and ****ed off.
But in Ultimate, many Assist Trophies have animations for being grabbed, thrown, hit, and launched. So if the Smash team wanted to upgrade an Assist Trophy to playable status in the future, it would be far more simple than creating a brand new character.
EDIT: While further looking into this, I was testing on Isaac, and he also has an Air Dodging animation, which is likely true for other Assist Trophies as well.
 
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wynn728

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I do agree that Piranha Plant definitely comes across as an insult to any actual character that isn't in Smash, but I couldn't disagree more with the rest. Assist Trophies are very much a place of honor - the closest that you can be to a fighter. Pretending that characters can't be promoted because they've remained ATs for an arbitrary amount of games is absurd, especially because that would require that Sakurai had somehow known that he was going to add the characters as playable next game.

Also lmao at Arms not getting a sequel it's a new IP that sold 2 million copies.
Oh yeah, place of honor. You get a random chance of an Assist Trophy showing up in battle and then you get a 1/59 chance of summoning them for 15 seconds. Such an amazing honor. In other fighting games you get to select your Assist and summon them when you want to.

As for Assist Trophies being the closest that you can be to a fighter that's like saying being 50 miles away from an area is the next best thing to being 5 miles away. There's big difference between those two, such as actually playing it. The whole point of a video game is you get to play it. Tell me a video game, let a lone a fighting game, where a big appeal is you get to watch characters that you can never play as ever?

As for the last part Sakurai said Assist Trophies are for characters that are able to be fighters, if a character is an Assist Trophy multiple times over and over again then that means Sakurai still view character not being viable as a fighter. He never change his comment on how he views Assist Trophies, so deep down he thinks those characters aren't worth it.

Look at it this way, we only had three Assist Trophies who were upgraded as Fighters, each only having Assist Trophy roles for just one game. Little Mac got a redesign and a new game after Brawl released, that in turn helped him out to become a unique fighter. Now look at our last two Assist Trophies that got upgraded, Dark Samus and Isabelle. Dark Samus is a clone fighter of Samus and Isabelle shares 50% of her moveset with Villager. The only unique fighter we ever got from upgrading Assist Trophies was Little Mac out of the dozen newcomers we ever got. Sakurai ain't looking at Assist Trophy characters and think they have potential, he believes that they have no potential at all.
 

GoodGrief741

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Tell me a video game, let a lone a fighting game, where a big appeal is you get to watch characters that you can never play as ever?
Well this is very funny, most story-based games nowadays?

Also online games nowadays are designed for viewing on platforms like Twitch and stuff.

It's just a really strange and funny statement.
He never change his comment on how he views Assist Trophies, so deep down he thinks those characters aren't worth it.
Because as we all know Sakurai is a man known for a hardline stance on things and never changes his mind.

:ultvillager:

:ultpacman:

:ultridley:

:ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter:

Hmmm
Look at it this way, we only had three Assist Trophies who were upgraded as Fighters, each only having Assist Trophy roles for just one game.
I look and I only see an arbitrary pattern that you choose to believe is significant. That's too bad mate, I hope you can still lead a happy life.
 

Xenigma

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Whatever the case may be, I hope they do consider a second pass. Maybe the huge positive reaction to Banjo will make them consider it. Idk.
It’s kind of sad that I’m more interested in a second pass than I am of who the other two dlc fighters are in the first one.
I don't think it's sad at all, especially given you're here in the Isaac thread. Nothing we've seen suggests the remaining Fighters Pass characters will be "deconfirmed" characters like Isaac, or even first party characters at all. A second DLC pass represents both a chance for some of the most popular remaining Nintendo characters to get their due (Isaac, Waluigi, Geno, Ashley, Rex, etc) as well as extended support by Nintendo for one of their biggest games, which seem like the exact things both Smash and Nintendo fans should like.

As for this recent AT conversation, it comes across as someone who has become extremely pessimistic about Smash and needs Sakurai and Nintendo to be villains to justify that pessimism. Best to leave it alone if you ask me: more productive to focus on the positives and what people like about a given character/series than demonize the developers.
 

wynn728

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As for this recent AT conversation, it comes across as someone who has become extremely pessimistic about Smash and needs Sakurai and Nintendo to be villains to justify that pessimism. Best to leave it alone if you ask me: more productive to focus on the positives and what people like about a given character/series than demonize the developers.
It's not demonizing them, but no matter how you slice it Sakurai is the one who's making those decisions. Those were Sakurai's words and actions.
 

FlawedAI

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We need to hear this guys. It came from the Geno thread and I’d like any second opinions:
I can't agree with this, if only because literally nothing is impossible. The only "rule" I have comes straight from Sakurai's mouth (no "fourth-party" characters, as in characters from outside video games), and even then, I'm fully aware Goku could be the next DLC character if Sakurai wills it. I genuinely think Sakurai's stance on ATs will change after Ultimate and we'll see more ATs being upgraded, namely Isaac & Waluigi. Maybe we miss out on Ultimate. Sad, but we can accept it. After all, something new GS-related appeared for the first time in 8 years! However, with the huge backlash to Isaac's AT and just general speculation around Isaac, I think we've become easily one of the two most requested characters (the other being Waluigi). Sakurai's stance on Assists could easily change between games, just as GoodGrief741 GoodGrief741 showed with his examples. If the fans want it enough, Sakurai will make it happen.
 

Ben Holt

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Well this is very funny, most story-based games nowadays?

Also online games nowadays are designed for viewing on platforms like Twitch and stuff.

It's just a really strange and funny statement.

Because as we all know Sakurai is a man known for a hardline stance on things and never changes his mind.

:ultvillager:

:ultpacman:

:ultridley:

:ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter:

Hmmm

I look and I only see an arbitrary pattern that you choose to believe is significant. That's too bad mate, I hope you can still lead a happy life.
The stance I hope Sakurai changes in the future is making Pokémon Trainer actually playable instead of being in the background.
Pikachu to Red is like Slime to Hero, Pikachu's the mascot, but Red is the protagonist. Because of this, Red should be a fighter. And before anyone says he doesn't fight, I present you Villager.
Imagine Red like Joker while Arsene is active, only replace Arsene with Charizard.
Red's down-B could be a Pokémon swap where he rotates between Charizard, Venusaur, Blastoise, and Pikachu.
And before you say "Charizard and Pikachu are already playable," I present you with Robin's Final Smash with Chrom.
If you guys want me to turn this idea into a character thread, let me know.
 

THE 6r

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Honestly, I can't see why being an assist really DQ's you from being playable. Not to mention the demand of many of these characters.


As in, many assists have a lot of fan support to be playable.
 
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Sabrewulf238

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Honestly, I can't see why being an assist really DQ's you from being playable. Not to mention the demand of many of these characters.


As in, many assists have a lot of fan support to be playable.
The Smash community loves it's rules. It's very very breakable rules.

We already know Sakurai is willing to upgrade assist trophies to playable status, the only question is whether he would be willing to do it during the same game through DLC.

I think that's something we'll only be able to find out if there are more fighter passes after the current one. (because I feel pretty comfortable believing what vergeben has said about the last two characters, plus I doubt any assist trophies would get promoted during the first pass anyway....if they were they wouldn't have been assist trophies in the first place)
 

Ben Holt

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Trophies didn't deconfirm characters in Smash 4.
Being part of another character's moveset didn't deconfirm Chrom.
Spirits likely won't deconfirm characters in future Fighter's Passes (which I firmly believe we are getting).
Being owned by a rival console manufacturer didn't deconfirm Banjo.
All Assist Trophies lack at this point is precedence.
 

THE 6r

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Chrom always just boggles my mind:
Still in Robin's FS
Still in Robin's victory pose
originally had default FE victory theme instead of Id
That whole WoL spirit event
Just a lot of weird things about one character
 

RandomAce

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Chrom always just boggles my mind:
Still in Robin's FS
Still in Robin's victory pose
originally had default FE victory theme instead of Id
That whole WoL spirit event
Just a lot of weird things about one character
Chrom was most likely Ultimate’s late addition. He probably was decided late into development when Sakurai and the team decided to add one more echo to expand the roster.

His model in his initial reveal was pretty rough, and they probably didn’t have time to give Robin a new Final Smash. A good example of how late Chrom was added is his losing animation, being the most abnormal of the cast since he doesn’t have an expression and his hands are completely flat and move very stiffly like he’s handing a deck of playing cards.

The stance I hope Sakurai changes in the future is making Pokémon Trainer actually playable instead of being in the background.
Pikachu to Red is like Slime to Hero, Pikachu's the mascot, but Red is the protagonist. Because of this, Red should be a fighter. And before anyone says he doesn't fight, I present you Villager.
Imagine Red like Joker while Arsene is active, only replace Arsene with Charizard.
Red's down-B could be a Pokémon swap where he rotates between Charizard, Venusaur, Blastoise, and Pikachu.
And before you say "Charizard and Pikachu are already playable," I present you with Robin's Final Smash with Chrom.
If you guys want me to turn this idea into a character thread, let me know.
Your reasons are easily debunk able;

1) “Before anyone says that Pokémon Trainer can’t fight, I present to you Villager.”

That’s a terrible example. It’s not that the Pokémon Trainer can’t fight but staying true to how they would actually fight.

Villagers don’t fight in their games, but the team in Smash made sure Villager’s move set in Smash be composed of the different items you can collect and use in their games since that could easily translate to how a Villager would do to attack. It works because otherwise, there isn’t anything else they could work with that could be used as Villager’s fighting style.

Pokémon Trainer however does, they use their Pokémon to fight for them. It’s the whole point of the games, and Smash represents exactly how they would fight and it doesn’t make sense for them to do otherwise. This is more of a creative liberty if anything and doesn’t need reworking.

2) “Before anyone says that Charizard and Pikachu are already fighters I present to you Chrom in Robin’s Final Smash”.

First of all Charizard isn’t separate and apart of Pokémon Trainer so I have no idea what you’re on about.

Second, it’s still a terrible example. Chrom is still apart of Robin’s Final Smash because he is likely a late addition and they didn’t have the time to change it, and even then it’s only apart of one move that can only be activated by an item.

Plus, it’d be entirely redundant to have an entire moveset be the same character who can be selected as their own separate fighter. There is no point of doing that work when you have three other characters that are unique to Pokémon Trainer.
 

GoodGrief741

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Chrom always just boggles my mind:
Still in Robin's FS
Still in Robin's victory pose
originally had default FE victory theme instead of Id
That whole WoL spirit event
Just a lot of weird things about one character
That's because anything can change.
 

ZelDan

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I wouldn't exactly bet on any sort of promotions happening for the last 2 fighter's pass spots, whether it be for assist trophies, mii costumes, or...at the risk of getting mobbed by Geno and/or Shantae supporters...spirits.

now if we are fortunate enough to get any DLC outside the fighter's pass, then that's a whole other can of worms there.
 
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Ben Holt

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Not trying to be a negative Nelly here, but if Assist Trophies are going to be upgraded as fighters later, Shovel Knight is the most deserving.
He is THE face of the indie scene. You could say Steve, but he's Microsoft now.
 

maf91186

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Not trying to be a negative Nelly here, but if Assist Trophies are going to be upgraded as fighters later, Shovel Knight is the most deserving.
He is THE face of the indie scene. You could say Steve, but he's Microsoft now.
Are you saying that of all the current assist trophies, Shovel Knight should be the first to reach playable status?
 

Ben Holt

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I once promoted the idea of an Assist Trophy Upgrade Fighter's Pass with Waluigi, Spring Man, Shovel Knight, Isaac, and Bomberman.
 

N3ON

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Not trying to be a negative Nelly here, but if Assist Trophies are going to be upgraded as fighters later, Shovel Knight is the most deserving.
He is THE face of the indie scene. You could say Steve, but he's Microsoft now.


If the game was all about indies (and ignored Japan), sure.
 
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N3ON

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Out of all Indie characters, who is a better choice than Shovel Knight?
The fact that your preface eliminates all the ATs but one is what makes it faulty. "Out of all the indie characters", yeah, Shovel Knight may be the best choice, but positing that the most likely upgrade is an indie character is pretty questionable. Especially since what got SK included is popularity, and his has dwindled considerably since the ballot days.

Basically you're looking to fill an arbitrary niche; Sakurai's done nothing to indicate there will be some designated indie slot. You can't compare him only to indie characters or qualify his achievements with the caveat of being indie, you have to compare him to everyone.
 

Ben Holt

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Ok, ignoring Shovel Knight's indiness, I assume you'd agree that third party characters are more 'hype' for lack of a better word.
Among third party assist trophies, the ones not associated with a series containing a playable fighter are Bomberman, Rathalos, Yuri, Akira, and Shovel Knight.
One could argue Bomberman, but I think that most would say that Shovel Knight is the most deserving of a playable spot.
 

TheCJBrine

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Ok, ignoring Shovel Knight's indiness, I assume you'd agree that third party characters are more 'hype' for lack of a better word.
Among third party assist trophies, the ones not associated with a series containing a playable fighter are Bomberman, Rathalos, Yuri, Akira, and Shovel Knight.
One could argue Bomberman, but I think that most would say that Shovel Knight is the most deserving of a playable spot.
To give my opinion...

I never cared for the deserving argument.

It is a game, after all. In a hypothetical AT upgrade pass, we could get anyone, including Shovel Knight but also Isaac.

And Skull Kid and Midna.
Also, I’d propose Undertale in the case of indies.
 
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GoodGrief741

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Ok, ignoring Shovel Knight's indiness, I assume you'd agree that third party characters are more 'hype' for lack of a better word.
Among third party assist trophies, the ones not associated with a series containing a playable fighter are Bomberman, Rathalos, Yuri, Akira, and Shovel Knight.
One could argue Bomberman, but I think that most would say that Shovel Knight is the most deserving of a playable spot.
Out of those I'd say that without a doubt the most hype and most deserving is Bomberman.

I also don't really agree with third parties being by and large more hype. But Shovel Knight would definitely be hype.
 

N3ON

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Ok, ignoring Shovel Knight's indiness, I assume you'd agree that third party characters are more 'hype' for lack of a better word.
Among third party assist trophies, the ones not associated with a series containing a playable fighter are Bomberman, Rathalos, Yuri, Akira, and Shovel Knight.
One could argue Bomberman, but I think that most would say that Shovel Knight is the most deserving of a playable spot.
Well they're not more hype as a rule. You think more people will cheer for Akira just because Sega owns him than a Nintendo character a bunch of people actually wanted? All of like... three people care about Akira. It's just that the bar for entry is generally higher for third-parties, so you wind up with bigger, more well-known characters. And those characters more easily accrue popularity. You'll notice that the playable third-parties are, to date, characters people actually care about.

So... "deservedness" is not a useful qualifier, because it's not a term people will come together on. What I can say is that Bomberman is much bigger series than Shovel Knight. Its popularity is more global. He's been a request for longer. Bomberman even had a recent, successful game Nintendo was involved with. Shovel Knight is just a successful indie game, and he was largely requested during a past title (so has Bomberman). With that in mind, it kind of challenges what "deservedness" really means.

And even with all that, a first-party character like Waluigi is still more popular, and probably more well-known than both.

Also Yuri isn't third-party, Nintendo has owned at least a piece of the Fatal Frame pie for a while now. But even if she was third-party, do you honestly think more people would be hyped to see Yuri than Isaac?
 
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ZelDan

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Ok, ignoring Shovel Knight's indiness, I assume you'd agree that third party characters are more 'hype' for lack of a better word.
Among third party assist trophies, the ones not associated with a series containing a playable fighter are Bomberman, Rathalos, Yuri, Akira, and Shovel Knight.
One could argue Bomberman, but I think that most would say that Shovel Knight is the most deserving of a playable spot.
On top of what others above have said, I also don't see why being part of a series that is already repped goes against a character's deservedness. Alucard is probably one of the most popular Castlevania characters in the series (perhaps THEE most popular), and has appeared in multiple Castlevanias. Same thing with Megaman Zero with the Megaman franchise, who has probably been in lord knows how many games to this day. I'd say both a pretty damn ""deserving"" picks.

Not that I really agree with throwing the word "deserving" anyways, because really what does that even mean? What factors decide what's deserving? Of these factors which are more important? Have Smash fans asked or considered these questions and largely agreed and put guidelines on this? What about Sakurai? Nintendo?
 
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D

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Hey GS fans just dropping in to check up on you all to see if you're all doing fine. I hope you're continuing to push for Golden Sun's return like usual cause that would be fantastic. Nintendo has such a massive library of good franchises they could do something with and yet they just sit on them and let them rot. Pretty much anything besides Mario, Kirby, Zelda, Pokemon, Smash and a few more never see the light of day.

F-Zero was one of the coolest Racing franchises and it's dead. Mother was such a good RPG franchise and it's dead (Though understandably so) and then of course there's Golden Sun which is an amazing franchise with amazing music and pretty good protagonists. These series and more are left to rot and that's one of the few criticisms I have with Nintendo so hopefully if we're loud enough we can get a DLC season 2 with Isaac and Geno in.

I wish the best of luck to you all, I may not be active here at all but I'm rooting for all of you 100% of the way. Geno and Isaac both being in would truly be a beautiful thing. Let's go Isaac!
 

Guynamednelson

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Ok, ignoring Shovel Knight's indiness, I assume you'd agree that third party characters are more 'hype' for lack of a better word.
Among third party assist trophies, the ones not associated with a series containing a playable fighter are Bomberman, Rathalos, Yuri, Akira, and Shovel Knight.
One could argue Bomberman, but I think that most would say that Shovel Knight is the most deserving of a playable spot.
Hype is extremely subjective. I'd argue that any assist being promoted could break the internet even if it isn't third party, since the public isn't a robot that goes ERROR: NINTENDO CHARACTER DETECTED.
 
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SonicLink125

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Hey GS fans just dropping in to check up on you all to see if you're all doing fine. I hope you're continuing to push for Golden Sun's return like usual cause that would be fantastic. Nintendo has such a massive library of good franchises they could do something with and yet they just sit on them and let them rot. Pretty much anything besides Mario, Kirby, Zelda, Pokemon, Smash and a few more never see the light of day.

F-Zero was one of the coolest Racing franchises and it's dead. Mother was such a good RPG franchise and it's dead (Though understandably so) and then of course there's Golden Sun which is an amazing franchise with amazing music and pretty good protagonists. These series and more are left to rot and that's one of the few criticisms I have with Nintendo so hopefully if we're loud enough we can get a DLC season 2 with Isaac and Geno in.

I wish the best of luck to you all, I may not be active here at all but I'm rooting for all of you 100% of the way. Geno and Isaac both being in would truly be a beautiful thing. Let's go Isaac!
Thank you for coming by with support, fellow Geno Bro! Here’s hoping they get into Smash soon! We will always keep pushing for Golden Sun to return as well. :)
 

Xenigma

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Hype is extremely subjective. I'd argue that any assist being promoted could break the internet even if it isn't third party, since the public isn't a robot that goes ERROR: NINTENDO CHARACTER DETECTED.
Hell, I'm an Isaac supporter and I'm pretty sure Waluigi would be Ultimate's most hyped DLC character if he managed to get in. The combined hype of being perhaps the most popular non-playable Nintendo character out there and promoting an AT same-game would be massive, more than I think Isaac, Shovel Knight or any other AT promotion would generate on their own.
 

NessAtc.

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Hell, I'm an Isaac supporter and I'm pretty sure Waluigi would be Ultimate's most hyped DLC character if he managed to get in. The combined hype of being perhaps the most popular non-playable Nintendo character out there and promoting an AT same-game would be massive, more than I think Isaac, Shovel Knight or any other AT promotion would generate on their own.
he's probably happening
just definitely not in the pass
Isaac has not only a chance, I think he's the most likely at this point just because of the ballot not being irrelevant
 

ArkSPiTFirE

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How's it going adepts? Are we perhaps in a month where we might see another direct? Or is it more likely to be a Fall update where Banjo is released and nothing else?

I saw that BillyBo10k has quit YouTube now. It's sad but I understand. I was hoping to see his reaction when Isaac does manage to get in.
 

NessAtc.

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How's it going adepts? Are we perhaps in a month where we might see another direct? Or is it more likely to be a Fall update where Banjo is released and nothing else?

I saw that BillyBo10k has quit YouTube now. It's sad but I understand. I was hoping to see his reaction when Isaac does manage to get in.
we're gearing up for a direct right now. It's likely to be this week
 

Hydewell

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Shovel Knight made sense in 2016, with the ballot. He was the face of indies, and its game was closely launched at that time. But nowadays he has huge competition (Undertale, Hollow Knight and Shantae basically). It's not that easy as it was in that time.
Regarding the last leak, I hope Nintendo did a mistake... Nothing personal against that company, but... it's so irrelevant nowadays (it even hit 1 milion sales their last game?)

But anyways, probably as it has been rumoured, Nintendo will do a new direct. Though the posibility is low, they can announce a new Mario Golf (which, if they announce it, my guess would be at the next one)... The last year was announced Luigi's Mansion 3 and Animal Crossing, so they can reveal some "big" project if they want for 2020.
 

Isaac: Venus Adept

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In case some of you don't know Billybo10k, one of the most vocal Isaac/Golden Sun supporters on YouTube has quit making videos. Let's all shower him with support and appreciation for his contributions

 
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