Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[kikaru]

Just finished my OBGYN shelf and had some time to collect my thoughts on the situation. As someone who has wanted Isaac playable since Brawl was announced (and as my #1 most wanted newcomer for Ultimate and #2 for Smash 4), of course I'm incredibly disappointed not only that Isaac is an AT, but also the that my hopes of bringing new life to the franchise has been dusted.

Unfortunately, I think the bottom line is that Isaac under-performed on the Smash Ballot. I understand that he was a popular contender among SmashBoards, Reddit, Gamefaqs, etc., especially with all of the polling that has been done over the years, but all of these individual communities are just a small part of the fanbase. For instance, Bayonetta was considered the top overall pick for the ballot, yet she certainly did not perform well based on all of these fan-made polls. We all know that Isaac got cut from Smash 4 entirely and that the representation for the franchise in Ultimate will most likely consist of two songs (Battle Scene/Final Boss and Weyward) + an AT. This, compounded with the fact that Camelot has shown little interest in continuing the Golden Sun series given how much attention the Sports franchise has received these past few years, makes me believe that Golden Sun is simply not a priority target for anyone. Not Camelot. Not Nintendo. Not Sakurai. And as much as I hate to say it, this is understandable.

My hype has also been killed as far Piranha Plant goes, but I can't bring myself to say he 'stole' any character's spots (similar to ROB's case) because Sakurai intended to put a joke character in. It could have been a Goomba in a boot or Chain Chomp or anything else but the bottom line is that a joke character was getting in no matter what.

As far as DLC goes the unrealistic slivers of hope are: 1). Sakurai does the unexpected and allows a current AT to also be playable. 2). Camelot intends to make Matthew the new lead/face of Golden Sun. I would not bet a single penny on either to happen though. So given that Piranha Plant is not part of the the other 5 DLC characters, who is all left now that several top contenders such as Rex, Skull Kid, Spring Man, etc. have been axed (Assuming the roster has been decided long ago based on Sakurai's comments on Rex's situation and being in Spirits =/= impossibilities. So no surprise 8th gen Pokemon, Three Houses protagonist, etc.)? My guesses for now would be:

-Chorus Kids (They had character files in Smash 4, most likely intended to be playable).
-Geno (Sakurai stated in interviews that he wanted him to be playable in previous games. If not Geno then another Square character based on Vergeben. Regardless of your opinions on him, he has been the best source of leaks so far).
-Microsoft character (I would hate to see Steve but Vergeben believes we will get Minecraft content in some form. Unless they have shown off any Minecraft content yet, the only way I can see Banjo getting in is if that Minecraft content is some sort of 'Microsoft Celebration.).
-Dixie Kong (Overall safe pick and decently popular character. Could easily be Diddy Kong's Isabelle).
-And some other 3rd party fighter (My guilty and unrealistic pick would be Lloyd Irving but the character pool here is so large that it's difficult to call. Heck we could even get both Banjo and Steve...).

Anyways, thanks for reading and thanks for the fun speculation everyone! I wanted Isaac as much as many of you, but I still hope to bump into you guys online when the game comes out!

 

[Xenigma]

GS4? Probably not in the cards. GS1+2 remake? That's possible. It's lower risk for Nintendo, and as opposed to a full sequel, I have confidence Camelot could probably do a remake without messing it up.

This is all I really want. I enjoyed Dark Dawn well enough, but I think I'd rather see them put the effort into giving the originals a fresh coat of paint and putting them onto Switch than trying to create a DD sequel or otherwise reboot the series again. Much lower risk project, much higher potential for reward both in making existing fans happy and attracting new ones.

 

[TempestSurge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxvuMr9uDZM

m o o d

Is it bad this made me chuckle a little? Especially with the comments indicating that there's still a shot for DLC lol. As for me, finally knowing Isaac's fate just simply puts me at ease. No more analyzing, no more speculations, no more anxiety. Him being playable would have been the best outcome to this whole journey of course, but I feel an assist trophy gives some finality and closure that him being a spirit wouldn't. It'd open the possible door for DLC, but then we don't even know if Sakurai already has an idea of who those five fighters are, since he'd have to get started on them at some point.

And the idea of being brought back into speculation, holding onto hope that Isaac is definitely one of those five, four, three, two, last fighter! All the way up through February of 2020 is kind of terrifying, especially if we wind up wrong again. I'm glad for the updated render and assist animations at least. Oh well, back to drowning myself in writing and getting caught up in the speculations of character development and relationships of TV show dramas. But of course I'll still help with the campaigning going on here.

 

[RandomAce]

What if they had Isaac’s assist trophy because they planned him to be a fighter, but couldn’t die to time constraints...

A little to optimistic? Eh, I was practically screaming when I saw Isaac appear in the AT section, all of my most wanted are out.

Though, with Isaac’s popularity, I think they originally wanted Isaac to be a newcomer, but scrapped him as an upgraded AT instead since we had less time. We live in an age where post launch content is a thing, so I think Isaac still has a chance. I’m willing to bet that he may even appear in Season 1, it may be a long shot, but with Isaac’s big popularity, I think they wanted to do something more grand for him.

 

[Sentinel07]

yeah feels like this was our last chance.

Though Shenmue 1 and 2 combined sold less the first Golden Sun according to VGChartz and its getting a sequel. Shenmue's last game was released in 2001.

Of course this is Nintendo. They don't really revive their small franchises. Only example I can think of is Punch-Out Wii.

That only furthers how odd this is. The first 2 Golden Sun games sold very well. Pretty sure the first one was around 1.8 million or so and The Lost Age wasn't too far behind. A rather successful duo-logy of games.

Fire Emblem needed 22 years to produce a million seller. Golden Sun did it on its first try. Even the Xenoblade games for all their acclaim haven't reached the sales of the first Golden Sun.

 

[DogManStar]

I'm certain this was our last chance honestly. If we couldn't even get into the game where Sakurai literally said he used the ballot, I don't think we have a chance for any future games where we'll have even more new IPs and the like to compete with. Golden Sun died forever today.

 

[Sentinel07]

This is my biggest hope for the aftermath of Grinch Leak (aside from hearing how in the world it happened in the first place). There was clearly a lot of enthusiasm for that specific list of newcomers, and I think Nintendo would do well to take note of that enthusiasm and, if nothing else, considering shortlisting some of those characters for potential future DLC if they aren't already in the Fighters Pass lineup.

It certainly got the names around. Maybe more people will at least become aware of Golden Sun.

 

[LuminoZero]

As somebody once said, there is one rule of Smash Characters:

"Sakurai does what he wants."

'Deconfirmed' means nothing to him.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Golden Sun 4 will never happen

Nintendo will never bring the series back if there is no interest for the game. Quitting on Golden Sun will let it stay dead forever.

 

[tveye]

At the price of getting all your hopes up and then it being torn down by reality.
Is that worth it?

I'd say so. I never had much hope in Isaac, to be honest. Seeing him be recognized by so many people was pretty great. Even if Sakurai doesn't think he deserves to be playable, so many others do. It's inspiring that for a brief moment, Geno, Isaac, and Banjo fans all joined forces.

 

[Aeon Lupin]

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but don't let this deconfirmation discourage you guys. You made it far, and gave Isaac and GS a lot of attention. Probably more than it's had in years, possibly ever. Let's not forget that Isaac headlined the Assist trophies. That's a jester of recognition by Sakurai. He recognizes the demand for the character and is displaying it in the best way without him actually being a fighter.

What I am getting at is, Smash Ultimate is a huge game, which fulfills many dreams. So much so, that I was starting to worry how the next Smash will top it. And let's be real, there will be a next Smash. Nintendo and Sakurai had to weight their options. If almost every popular newcomer was chosen, what would Smash 6 have to offer as an incentive for hype and speculation? Who gets cut? That would be a bummer. Nintendo hasn't created that many new properties, and they are running out of big new series to push. Eventually, they'll have to start mining the well of forgotten IPs, like Golden Sun. It's up to the fans to let them know it's an investement worth making.

In conclusion, don't start wavering. As a K. Rool/Ridley supporter, I've gone through this. Never give up, make your voices heard. Don't just let Sakurai know you want Isaac playable, let Nintendo know you want a new Golden Sun. It's never too late. I'll be helping by playing GS for the first time. I'll even tell friends about it, and spread the word. Don't lose faith.

 

[StrawHatX]

We need to send a message to Camelot to tell them we want another Golden Sun game. Show them the damn votes for Isaac or something.

Maybe now that they’re done with the newest Mario Tennis game they can look at the series again. Give us something Nintendo.

 

[PhantomShab]

Just popping in from the Skull Kid thread to offer my condolences. We both got done absolutely dirty today.

 

[TheAJJohnson]

Guys...it's never too late. Add your voice to mine.

https://www.change.org/p/nintendo-neverlosehope-isaac-from-golden-sun-for-super-smash-bros-ultimate

 

[OpticalBlast]

Somebody a few pages back mentioned making a fan game, and that got me thinking.

Would making fan games get Nintendo's attention? They obviously don't like fans doing stuff with their properties. Maybe if a bunch of us made fan games, Nintendo would notice and realize that there's demand for more Golden Sun?

Just an idea.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Just popping in from the Skull Kid thread to offer my condolences. We both got done absolutely dirty today.

Skull Kid supporters especially. Not even a proper deconfirm within a direct.

 

[KMDP]

This needs to be front and center to every golden sun fan. Any way to get Billy to promote this?

You can either tag him and ask him to, or PM him and ask him.

I said something similar to this in the Ashley thread. The Isaac fans were definitely given the middle finger. All that Isaac support denied by the hard AT confirm and the worst part for Isaac is....this was at the very LAST MINUTE.. Isaac is the MOST supported AT character that should've been shown earlier than Ashley even.

If this was Isaac's fate all along, we should've known that since E3 at the latest.... I cannot believe they'd wait as long as they did to have a huge amount of character fan bases be crushed by this one direct... Damn it....just damn it...

I was never an Isaac fan back in Smash 4 and faintly remembered the AT from Brawl, but reading into his story, lore of the games, and seeing so much passion ooze from this support thread always reminded me 100% of the K. Rool thread and how we are... You guys made me love and want this character.. I don't know what else to say besides...

“It's not victory that makes a man. It's his defeats.” - Golden Son
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Son

A great, heartful post.

Harassing the developers is never an answer.
At the end of the day this is about having a character playable in a smash game, not some political upheaval.
A ballot is really the only thing to hope for at this point.

This.

The only real options are another Ballot or we make a Petition.

That only furthers how odd this is. The first 2 Golden Sun games sold very well. Pretty sure the first one was around 1.8 million or so and The Lost Age wasn't too far behind. A rather successful duo-logy of games.

Fire Emblem needed 22 years to produce a million seller. Golden Sun did it on its first try. Even the Xenoblade games for all their acclaim haven't reached the sales of the first Golden Sun.

But Sentinel07, Golden Sun: Dark Dawn underperformed.

As Sonic '06 has historically taught us, when a game is received poorly, this terrifies the developer into never trying something like that ever again.

*sigh*

 

[tveye]

With Spirits being the parallel to trophies/stickers I don't see why they couldn't be playable. That said, there aren't any Spirits I think actually stand a good shot at playability. Maybe Geno, but that'd be about it.

You say that as if we know all the Spirits already.

 

[Sentinel07]

We need to send a message to Camelot to tell them we want another Golden Sun game. Show them the damn votes for Isaac or something.

Maybe now that they’re done with the newest Mario Tennis game they can look at the series again. Give us something Nintendo.

I'd love to have that kind of optimism.

Sadly, I don't think Camelot wants to bother with anything actually requiring effort these days. Even their latest Mario Tennis game was eh. I've often dreamed of them teaming up with Monolith Soft for Golden Sun though. That would be a fantasy come true.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I would like to give my in-depth thoughts on Isaac's chances for future Smash games sometime after this Direct situation has cooled-down.

It is going to be a brutally honest take, but it is something I feel needs to be said in order for you guys to give Golden Sun a better future for better representation in the next Smash games.

But, I will only say it if you supporters request to hear it.

 

[THE 6r]

I would like to give my in-depth thoughts on Isaac's chances for future Smash games sometime after this Direct situation has cooled-down.

It is going to be a brutally honest take, but it is something I feel needs to be said in order for you guys to give Golden Sun a better future for better representation in the next Smash games.

But, I will only say it if you supporters request to hear it.

Of course we want to hear it.

 

[Arsenal234]

I still want to support Isaac for smash, but i'm not going to lie it is going to take some time before I can really put my heart back into it. On the bright side with Isaac is the new Ridley.

 

[N3ON]

You say that as if we know all the Spirits already.

Unless there are Spirits of Sora, Banjo, and Three Houses characters already, (and I guess Steve) I kinda stand by it. And I don't even think those characters have tremendous chances, I'd just be hard pressed to give any other characters an edge at this point. Maybe Dixie, if we're lucky.

I would like to give my in-depth thoughts on Isaac's chances for future Smash games sometime after this Direct situation has cooled-down.

It is going to be a brutally honest take, but it is something I feel needs to be said in order for you guys to give Golden Sun a better future for better representation in the next Smash games.

But, I will only say it if you supporters request to hear it.

I don't see why not. I don't think any opinions should be denied a voice.

 

[AlliwantisIsaac]

So i just learned that matthew is a spirit... Alright i'm ok with voting for isaac in the smash ballots again or if you guys preffer matthew, it doesn't matter it's all about getting proper GS representation other than just some trophy.

 

[StrawHatX]

I'd love to have that kind of optimism.

Sadly, I don't think Camelot wants to bother with anything actually requiring effort these days. Even their latest Mario Tennis game was eh. I've often dreamed of them teaming up with Monolith Soft for Golden Sun though. That would be a fantasy come true.

At this point I have more optimism for a new Golden Sun game than Isaac or any Golden Sun character ever getting in Smash.

A lot of people have came in here and confirmed it was weird that Nintendo renewed their copyright on Golden Sun years early. Perhaps Nintendo has noticed the demand in the Smash polls.

 

[spaceperson741]

I have a dream. A dream that all DLC are assist trophies. I could easily see 5 ATs becoming characters (if they go that route).
1. Isaac
2. Waluigi
3. Ashley
4. Shadow
5. Skull Kid

I know it's not gonna happen, and that makes me sad, but dreams are the only reason I bother to sleep, and I need sleep, so this is the compromise. (Note: I would be perfectly fine with Geno replacing one of these characters)

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

Golden Sun 4 will never happen

I would agree. But with how insanely well RPG's have sold on switch, I have my doubts there. A lot of time developers just touch on the back catalog for 5 seconds to see if there's any demand at all. That could take the form of a bare bones Golden Sun 1 HD. Nothing but a graphics uplift. If that sell's even a third as well as Xenoblade 2, the series has a solid future. Today was not our last stand. There will be more chances. I know it because we've seen other series resurface from dormancy before. Mainline DK went silent for many years until Returns hit. We just need to get luck when Nintendo spins the wheel of "what do we touch today"

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I hope that Assist Trophies can still be DLC if it does go beyond the first Fighter pass.

I dunno. I feel like they want to make Smash into a games as a service and doing that through Ultimate is by far the best way. I am a little disheartened to see how damn good Isaac looks and not being able to actually play him but I am really glad to see he’s there at all. I’ll pour all my support into him and Banjo over the next few years and pray that he at least has a chance despite him being an AT. I hope to spend that time with you guys too. You’re all super cool and I hope we can still be that way for the foreseeable future.

 

[THE 6r]

Golden Sun 4 will never happen

Woah, woah, woah, let's not go that far. There is a market for Golden Sun. There are fans of that series and Nintendo knows this. They had to have seen the reaction to the Rathelos Tweet, the Grinch leak, or that sprout to see that there are people that still love the series. If we stay together and keep at it, we can bring back Golden Sun. Giving up, however, will indeed ensure that there will be no Golden Sun 4.

 

[DogManStar]

I honestly don't see how GS4 is possible if all the demand we accumulated still couldn't get Isaac into Smash. I'll keep hoping but I think there's only an outside chance of it happening. This is probably the end of the line for the series for the next decade or so.

 

[spaceperson741]

I'm moreso hoping for GS and TLA remakes. From there we can get a complete reboot of the series. I'm optimistic about the future of the series. Don't forget, while he isn't a fighter, we DID get Isaac into Smash all the same.

 

[QcSlayer]

Guys...it's never too late. Add your voice to mine.

https://www.change.org/p/nintendo-neverlosehope-isaac-from-golden-sun-for-super-smash-bros-ultimate

It's nice but we have a bigger one!

https://www.change.org/p/nintendo-isaac-in-super-smash-bros-ultimate

 

[Gioka]

I posted this on Reddit but I should post it here too

I have been a fan of the series for a while and today was proof we have the popularity to get into Smash. It may not have been the outcome we wanted but hey! Isaac is now back in Smash! But remember he would have not appeared at all had it not been for us. We did this!

But right now, a lot of us are hurting. And too rightly so. This is a character we love and care about. Of course it will hurt! Some of us may want to quit. But don't! We can't stop now. But at the same point, we need to discuss about Nintendo.

It has been eight years since Golden Sun last got an entry. They might not think the series matters as much anymore. But we do! Until Dark Dawn, the series has been a million seller each time. And Dark Dawn only failed due to being sold at the end of the DS's lifespan and the lack of marketing. And even then, the fans are there. As much as the Xenoblade fans.

So why did he not get in? Well Nintendo is a business plain and simple. It is a numbers game regarding who gets in the roster. Ridley and King K Rool got in because their numbers proved that they are a USP (Unique Selling Point) to the success of the game sales. Smash's character roster is a USP. Had it not had the characters back in the day, it would have failed to become the series it is.

Why do I mention this? Because right now, it is clear Nintendo don't see us as a big enough number. But we can change that!

Have you ever heard the TV series of Chuck? It is a television series that got cancelled and through the fans buying enough of the product sponsored in the series, revived the series! A series that was dead. It was all done through the fans and their efforts.

So, you still want Isaac to be in? We can do this. Show our outright support in one single day.

What I propose is a campaign of showing positive support for Golden Sun. On November 11th, Golden Sun will be 17 years old in the US. The perfect excuse to promote our love for Isaac! What I recommend is doing any (or all) of the following

• On the day, post to your respective Nintendo Twitter/Facebook/Social Media's country accounts (Nintendo UK, of America et). Celebrate your love for Golden Sun and add the tag #Isaac4Smash and #BringBackGoldenSun
• On that day, buy the Golden Sun ports on the Wii U and post that to the Nintendo's social media accounts. Buy the old games too (if you can find it) and post a photo of it!
• Gather the troops! Talk about Golden Sun all day and how it should be revived. The more who know about it, the more likely they will join our cause
• Convince others to play Golden Sun! Remember, the only reason Golden Sun isn't active right now is they believe there is no future sales. We can prove them wrong!
• Spread the word on this plan! If you don't, the plan will never work. We need to find as many Golden Sun fans as possible.
• Basically, on November 11th, prove with all you can that Golden Sun should be a revived series and Isaac matters

The truth is, WE are the people responsible for Isaac's inclusion in Smash and Golden Sun's revival. If we want to do it, we need to share it as far as we can and gather as many people who love the series as possible to get as many of the fans posting about it on that one day. If we don't, we might say goodbye to Golden Sun forever. Even if we don't succeed. Even if November 11th goes off well and they still don't give him recognition, at least we can let the sun set knowing we did all we could to save him and his series.

I will be doing all I can on November 11th. Let us show that no matter the outcome for Golden Sun, its fans never left and want the series back

I believe in our Golden Boy! Do you?

Count me in! I won't be online much on November 11th because I will be at a con but I will tweet! I don't know if we should stick to the same hashtag or not but I will tweet anyways. I also want to join StoicSeraph and Billybae10K in generating Golden Sun content so I will start drawing more Golden Sun related fan art and maybe cosplay Isaac and or Felix

 

[MainJPW]

Can't wait to support Isaac heavily for the next few years.

I mean he looks great.

But we need him to be playable.

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

Can't wait to support Isaac heavily for the next few years.

I mean he looks great.

But we need him to be playable.

When this game inevitably get's hacked. I'll do it myself if I have to. You may think i'm joking but if that's the damn lengths that I have to go through, I will. I'm learning programming and have friends in modeling and animation.

 

[Ryuuma]

It hurts, but c'mom guys. We got Ridley, K.Rool and a ****ing plant. Everything is possible.


Ultimate maybe is not the time for Isaac to shine. But one day, that is going to happen.
Maybe in the next game, maybe, we will need to wait a little bit more.
But one day, we will play with this guy. I'm pretty sure.

Is hard, it hurts.

But we have to wait.

 

[Xenigma]

I dunno. I feel like they want to make Smash into a games as a service and doing that through Ultimate is by far the best way.

This is my other, perhaps overly optimistic takeaway. They could easily treat Ultimate like Street Fighter V: add 5-6 characters a year, do some cosmetic DLC for extra revenue, do a balance patch once or twice a year to deal with anything that gets out of line. Now you have a staple Switch game that is regularly bringing in extra money for Nintendo while also acting as a strong promotional vehicle for their other releases as they sprinkle in a Three Houses character, Pokemon Gen VIII character, and so on among fan requests like say Waluigi and Isaac.

I just don't know if Nintendo (or Sakurai in particular) is interested in doing games as a service, even though they have such a golden opportunity here to do so. They already seem to be leaving money on the table in that regard with Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, despite being a massive success for them based on the sales numbers I've seen. Why would they have learned here? As much as I'm hoping this Fighters Pass will not be the extent of Ultimate DLC, I have a bad feeling that Sakurai is going to say that will be our final roster and Ultimate will thus be complete.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

Sorry to you all for having to watch Isaac get the slip this late in the game.

 

[TempestSurge]

It's nice but we have a bigger one!

https://www.change.org/p/nintendo-isaac-in-super-smash-bros-ultimate

There was also apparently a petition to get him into this base game that ended at 481 supporters today with the deconfirm. Dang if we were aware and had passed that along in here, probs could have gotten those numbers higher. Though the roster was already decided about two years back but it likely could have been used to help give more credence to the demand of Isaac and Golden Sun.

 

[KoopaSaki]

I’ve made the decision to cosplay as Isaac at every smash tourney I go to. I’m going to become one of the best smash ultimate players just like zero and nairo. I want to reach out to the rest of the smash community and keep the enthusiasm for Isaac alive so I’m doing it in honor of him getting in eventually. With every no you get closer to the inevitable yes!